Semifinals: Goku vs. The Incredible Hulk

[Барбоса]

SSJ3's physical strength compared to SSJ2's when there is no canonical evidence for an increase

Does there really need to be that much evidence to decide that SSJ3 is stronger than SSJ2? Surely natural progression alone is enough to make what is essentially an inconsiderable leap to SSJ3 being stronger.

Why else would Goku use it if it was not stronger, especially if it was going to reduce his time on earth? As I have said before, Goku might be an idiot in a social setting but he is far from one when it comes to the battlefield and he would not use SSJ3 against Fat Buu and later Kid Buu if it did not give him a considerable edge over SSJ2.

 

[Bernkastel]

Does there really need to be that much evidence to decide that SSJ3 is stronger than SSJ2? Surely natural progression alone is enough to make what is essentially an inconsiderable leap to SSJ3 being stronger.

Why else would Goku use it if it was not stronger, especially if it was going to reduce his time on earth? As I have said before, Goku might be an idiot in a social setting but he is far from one when it comes to the battlefield and he would not use SSJ3 against Fat Buu and later Kid Buu if it did not give him a considerable edge over SSJ2.

When a normal SSJ and their enemies are seen knocking each other through mountains, we would assume to see something more impressive for SSJ2 and SSJ3, but when we don't it's safe to assume that physical strength for the levels of super saiyan do not change... and if they do change it's not a significant one.

Not significant compared to increased speed, durability, or energy capacity.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

I'm surprised no one sees the similarities between Hulk and Broly. Broly is DBZ's version of Hulk and is one character I wish they would've put into the actual manga but I digress. Anyway, Cell was the equilivant of a Super Saiyan 2 and he could blow up an entire solar system. Solar System destroyer>Planet destroyer. With that being said, Gohan destroyed Cell and Goku in the end of the DBZ series is way stronger than Gohan was at that time so it stands to reason that he would be able to destroy Hulk after a long, hard fought battle.

 

[Барбоса]

When a normal SSJ and their enemies are seen knocking each other through mountains, we would assume to see something more impressive for SSJ2 and SSJ3, but when we don't it's safe to assume that physical strength for the levels of super saiyan do not change... and if they do change it's not a significant one.

Not significant compared to increased speed, durability, or energy capacity.

That is verging on specious reasoning.

That SSJ2 and SSJ3 are not shown to destroy things is no argument to say that they cannot for the simple fact that all of them are the heroes not the villains. And when you are confined to fighting on a planet, what more can you do than smash through it like butter without risking its destruction?

The inter-level state of Ascended Super Saiyan, with its increased muscle mass and the brief fear that it extracts from Cell, would suggest that it is a more physically powerful state that SSJ.

Indeed, as SSJ2 is considered to be the attainment of the power of ASSJ without its loss of speed, then it just goes to common sense that SSJ2 is also considerably stronger than SSJ.

 

[Snitsky4GM]

Wrong; the strength of the characters really hadn't increased that much on a grand scale. With Super Buu being a couple hundred fold stronger than Frieza; not millions or whatever. Still planet busters at best.

I didn't say millions, I said that the scale of battles became too massive too early. They reached a point in the Frieza saga that if they were to continue at that exponential rate it would be difficult to continue the cash cow that was Dragonball Z because they would be destroying galaxies by the time they fought Majin Buu.

But it's not shown; Frieza and Goku were punching each other through mountains the same way Cell and Goku were. The only thing shown to be consistently increased are speed, stamina, durability levels, and energy capacity. Assuming that physical strength increases as well when there's no evidence to show that it does is just poor debating skills.

It is pretty apparent that the characters do become stronger. Why else would they show Character A taking a kick from Character B that doesn't even make them flinch, then a couple episodes later Character A is actually taking damage from Character B. If the durability and stamina levels go up like this then it must take increased strength to beat someone like this.

No, but he has all of those other advantages over Goku that I listed so it wouldn't matter if Goku is a better combat fighter.

And yet you were arguing that Psylocke wouldn't stand a chance against Goku because of his speed even though she is a character who moves at super speed and Hulk isn't. Hulk needs time and gamma explosions to reach levels you are talking about. War Hulk does have the power to do this from the start because of his Celestial enhanced tech that pretty much keeps his power at its limits. He doesn't count though because that isn't Hulk, Hulk's body is just an avatar for War.

You are trying to fill in blanks with evidence that was never even shown; stop assuming.

Not assuming bro, going with the evidence they provide.

In the manga Goku immediately started the fight at SSJ3, and Vegeta was never meant to have a turn. He only got one because Goku overestimated his power and stamina.

Give us scans

Wrath of the Dragon isn't canon; stop bullshitting me.

Wrath of the Dragon was written and produced by TOEI; Toriyama had fuck all to do with it. That's why we use the canon for continuation and feats because it's the closest thing to the author's original work.

And yet Toriyama was a writer for it and the founder of Funimation Gen Fukunaga was the producer.

Do you know anything about DBZ? You are showing me that you don't.

You continue to show from all of these Goku threads that you don't either so I guess we are on an even playing field.

Based on the scan provided by Phatso Hulk can regenerate from nothing but a skeleton, meaning he can regenerate his organs through his cells. Some evidence of Hulk's regeneration is better than trying to wank SSJ3's physical strength compared to SSJ2's when there is no canonical evidence for an increase

Based on Phatso's scan he wasn't taken down to a skeleton he just had skin and muscle burnt off. Hulk's regeneration takes time to fully recover. He doesn't instantly recover from any and all attacks against him. He has been gutted on several occasions and has to hold his intestines in while his healing factor takes effect.

And yet you voted for the Hulk anyway; way to drive another nail into Goku's coffin.

I don't like Goku in tournaments like this and was going to just keep my mouth shut because he was winning. I am arguing for Goku to win this fight for two reasons:

1. You are wrong about the outcome of this fight
2. You have been so flat out wrong on other threads in this tournament, ex. Psylocke vs Goku.

His level is too often far above any of the other competition. That is not to say his power level was going to make this tournament though because Juggernaut can flat out beat anyone in this competition.




P.S.

When a normal SSJ and their enemies are seen knocking each other through mountains, we would assume to see something more impressive for SSJ2 and SSJ3, but when we don't it's safe to assume that physical strength for the levels of super saiyan do not change... and if they do change it's not a significant one.

Stop assuming Brah.

 

[Bernkastel]

Does there really need to be that much evidence to decide that SSJ3 is stronger than SSJ2? Surely natural progression alone is enough to make what is essentially an inconsiderable leap to SSJ3 being stronger.

Why else would Goku use it if it was not stronger, especially if it was going to reduce his time on earth? As I have said before, Goku might be an idiot in a social setting but he is far from one when it comes to the battlefield and he would not use SSJ3 against Fat Buu and later Kid Buu if it did not give him a considerable edge over SSJ2.

Because the form grants him increased speed and ki reserves. Why would he even need increased physical strength when he can blast a Kamehameha 4 times more powerful than he could as a SSJ2.

I didn't say millions, I said that the scale of battles became too massive too early. They reached a point in the Frieza saga that if they were to continue at that exponential rate it would be difficult to continue the cash cow that was Dragonball Z because they would be destroying galaxies by the time they fought Majin Buu.

Not really. Freiza was a planet buster at maximum strength, saying that he wasn't is countered by not being able to destroy Namek completely in one blow. According to the Daishenzuu's Frieza was actually stronger than both 17 and 18 at max power, so Perfect Cell's power would not be that much stronger in comparison.

Right before Cell launches his Solar Kamehameha at SSJ2 Gohan he claims to have enough power to destroy the Solar System; that was a mistranslation. This is what he actually says...

Spoiler

It is pretty apparent that the characters do become stronger. Why else would they show Character A taking a kick from Character B that doesn't even make them flinch, then a couple episodes later Character A is actually taking damage from Character B. If the durability and stamina levels go up like this then it must take increased strength to beat someone like this.

If that's the case then why do they not show any strength feats beyond breaking a mountain apart? Perhaps maybe because their physical strength levels haven't increased that much.

And yet you were arguing that Psylocke wouldn't stand a chance against Goku because of his speed even though she is a character who moves at super speed and Hulk isn't. Hulk needs time and gamma explosions to reach levels you are talking about. War Hulk does have the power to do this from the start because of his Celestial enhanced tech that pretty much keeps his power at its limits. He doesn't count though because that isn't Hulk, Hulk's body is just an avatar for War.

Liar, you didn't read my arguments at all. My prime argument was that Goku could break her physic control by powering up, why? Because his mind becomes intense and full of rage when he does.

Not assuming bro, going with the evidence they provide.

What evidence? You've shown me nothing that makes me believe that Goku could overcome having both a physical strength disadvantage and a stamina disadvantage.

Give us scans

Spoiler

And yet Toriyama was a writer for it and the founder of Funimation Gen Fukunaga was the producer.

Even in the link you provide it says very clearly that he wasn't the writer for the screenplay and that he just provided the info for the characters. You fail.

Based on Phatso's scan he wasn't taken down to a skeleton he just had skin and muscle burnt off. Hulk's regeneration takes time to fully recover. He doesn't instantly recover from any and all attacks against him. He has been gutted on several occasions and has to hold his intestines in while his healing factor takes effect.

But he can still regenerate right? You seem to be forgetting that as Goku expends the energy to hurt Hulk, his strength and stamina are steadily plummeting, where as the angrier Hulk gets the the more his strength and stamina rise.

I don't like Goku in tournaments like this and was going to just keep my mouth shut because he was winning. I am arguing for Goku to win this fight for two reasons:

1. You are wrong about the outcome of this fight

No I'm not; I've shown that Hulk is too powerful to be affectively injured by a SSJ or SSJ2, forcing Goku to rely on SSJ3. A form that expends so much energy that it's likely that Hulk could just outlast him.

2. You have been so flat out wrong on other threads in this tournament, ex. Psylocke vs Goku.

And yet no one was able to prove me wrong about Goku being able to break her telekinesis by powering up

His level is too often far above any of the other competition. That is not to say his power level was going to make this tournament though because Juggernaut can flat out beat anyone in this competition.

Goku is probably the most consistently overrated fiction character in Japanese history.

Stop assuming Brah.

I wasn't assuming; I was going by evidence Unless you can show me some feats to prove me wrong.

 

[Ming]

Goku wins this, and he doesn't need to go SS3 to do so.

Goku's endurance is more than exceptional and that combined with his speed will be why he defeats Hulk here. I know Hulk isn't slow, but Goku's instant transmission and afterimage will leave The Hulk chasing shadows. The Hulk's regeneration ability doesn't matter when Goku's defeated opponents with superior regeneration abilities. Unlike Cell & Buu, if The Hulk loses a limb, it won't be growing back. And Goku's Kamehameha is more than capable of not only removing Hulk's limbs, but also finishing him off completely.

Goku wins. Vote Goku.

 

[nightmare]

Once again, no evidence that Hulk can regen more or equal to the likes of Cell\Buu. Therefore he cannot survive a full on shot like they could.


Once again, no evidence that Hulk could counter the speed\IT that Goku will use to his advantage. If he cant see the attacker coming, all the strength in the world wont save you.


Hulk is seriously strong, very quick and extremely durable. However- the strength of Goku in tandem with his speed and devastating attacks will make this a victory for Goku. Hulk wont be able to regen when literally half his body is blown off by a kamehameha. He will see Goku one second and the next- Goku is behind him and lets loose.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

This is a couple of demonstrations of the Hulk's power, stamina and endurance...

For those not familiar with 'Planet Hulk' story arc, this is the Hulk swimming through the magma of the planet Sakaar and then pulling it's tectonic plates back together fixing it. It might take incredible strength to be a 'Planet Destroyer' - just how much stronger is the being who can pull it back together mid-destruction?

Or how about providing sustenance to an entire race so that he doesn't have to destroy them because they would infect the rest of the population of Sakaar?

(And this is the Hulk at rest!)

The angrier Hulk gets: the stronger he gets, the more stamina he gets and the more resistant to punishment he gets. Goku? He's pretty much the opposite, the more powerful he makes himself, the more it takes out of him. In a close contest with both guys at their peaks, surely logic dictates that ole Green Skin will come through?

 

[Uncle Phatso]

You guys are driving me crazy with this regen shit. Did you not view the screens I posted? His skin is flayed off, muscle burnt down basically to the bone. But his regen powers are shit... good lord.

Oh and I'm sorry he isn't a universe destroyer... but he did destroy a pocket universe.... with a thunderclap.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Buckle in boys and girls. This is going to be a long one, and Echelon is probably going to think I hate him afterwards. I do not. But I also think he needs to stop posting about Dragon Ball Z, because this isn't the first (not even the second time) I've caught a lot of blatantly wrong statements being thrown around. Stick to what you know my friend; your influence in the tournament is too great to be bullshitting at such a late point in the game.

The only real advantage that Goku has over the Hulk is that he can fly, and Hulk can move nearly as fast on the ground as Goku can through the air.

No. No no no. No.
[YOUTUBE]8IXCK1EyP4s[/YOUTUBE]
You cannot sit on here and talk about how fast he is, and how fast his transformations make him (in comparison to the strength he apparently doesn't gain; another point we'll get to in a minute), and then turn around and say that Hulk can move just as fast. The beast's strength gives him ridiculous speed, but most of his movement utility comes in his leaps. He doesn't really do a lot of running; mostly jumping from building to building. He actually has been known to jump up so high he can take out planes... So there's a point in your favor, and you didn't even have to work for it.

But comparing that to Goku, at max power, really pushing himself? Don't make me post that video again, Echelon.

Hulk has more physical strength than Goku, and his durability levels are so high that even SSJ2 likely wouldn't be enough to put him down due to his regeneration abilities.

That's debatable. Maybe true, because after all Hulk is one of the most powerful beings ever, but don't write off Goku quite yet. He's taken incredible beatings, and powered out of some of the strongest enemies that galaxy has to offer. Before going any further though, there are thigns we need to discuss...

SSJ4 is non canon. You know what canon is right? It's the authors original work. Stuff like GT and the movies may as well be million dollar fanfiction. Therefore not credible when arguing with canon feats.

There you go, making shit up again. This point is of vital importance, so I'm getting it out of the way now.
JUST BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL WRITER DID NOT HELM CONTENT, DOES NOT MEAN IT IS IMMEDIATELY DISQUALIFIED FROM BEING CANON.
"Canon" is just another word for "official", not "original". Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan wrote the screenplay for Empire Strikes Back off George Lucas' story prompts, while he oversaw production. Does that mean the greatest Star Wars film in history isn't canon? By your standards, it apparently does... With things like Star Wars there are layers and layers of different types of canon. Timothy Zahn has written some incredible books that Lucas himself has canonized. So please...stop making things up.

Here's the bottom line; Toriyama himself oversaw all production of DBGT. Did he write it all? No. But you'd think...if he's sitting in a room making production calls and taking the time to piece it together - let alone fund it - he probably agreed with what is going on. It was televised through Funimation, using the official copyright and trademark logos of the Dragon Ball brand. It's about as canon as canon can get.

And yes, SS4 Goku counts. It's canon. Toriyama drew the first sketches of it. And that's what frustrates me. We're so far into the tournament, and you have effectively handicapped Goku by claiming his most powerful form isn't legitimate, and people trust you. Blind leading the blind...

Hulk isn't Majin Buu, but a Kamehameha through the chest would not be enough to kill him.

Any actual proof to back up this claim? I have none to deny you, but I wasn't making the point in the first place. Just questioning your rebuttal.

Factoring in the fact that Hulk gets stronger the angrier he gets will work in his favor.

Right you are. As shown every time he fights somebody new, Goku also finds new energy and levels of power to draw from. The angrier he gets, and the motivation he finds to keep fighting, the more he'll reach down and find new levels of strength and stamina that he's never used before. It's the nature of basic anime writing: characters keep getting more powerful, consistently, until the show ends.

Normally Goku would have the advantage in stamina, but not here. Why? If SSJ2 isn't likely to work, then he'd have to use SSJ3. The transformation takes time, and it puts a MASSIVE strain on his body to the point where he can only maintain use of the form in a living body for only a couple of minutes.

Yeah. Sure. The first few times he does it... In a few of the movies you don't claim are canon, sure. Buuuut about the time GT rolls around it's clear that Goku has the technique mastered. In Kid Goku form against Baby, Goku goes SS3 in about five seconds flat. And that was in a state quite a few power levels under what he was capable in his "adult" form. By the final fights in GT Goku could probably take naps in the SS3 form.

The only time he moves at lightspeed is when he's using instant transmission

I am not having this discussion again. Go back and look at the first round, where we established the difference between instant transmission and the more appropriate name, instant translocation. This is SO two weeks ago...

Hulk isn't sluggish, and is quick enough to hold his own if Goku tries hand to hand combat, which would be stupid considering Big Green's got the strength advantage. And remember that Goku can only fight going all out with SSJ3 for a couple of minutes; I seriously doubt he would waste it ducking and dodging.

Goku probably would try hand to hand combat. Because he always does. I'm not saying it's a smart idea, but he's Goku, and he really likes to push his limits and figure out his opponents before formulating some sort of plan. He'd probably walk right up and start punching and kicking away.

Hulk has allot more power than Goku. Goku's best feat of strength was pushing a mountain apart. Not only can the Hulk do this put he is capable of destroying moon sized asteroids and ripping planets apart with his raw strength.

In my opinion, the closest opponent Goku has to Hulk is Broly. The guy, in his super form, was unstoppable. Nothing anybody did breached him. He seemed the pure form of raw power and energy. When he and Goku collided in their fully charged states, the planet literally started ripping apart beneath them. That is power.

At SSJ3 he sacrifices stamina for strength and speed; and SSJ3 only increases his energy level 4 fold from SSJ2. Not really that impressive of an increase.

The Hulk isn't hindered by his muscle mass at all; he could jump far enough to make it into orbit, and it would only take him a few seconds.

At SSJ3 this is a moot point, why? Because his stamina only allows him to use the form for a few minutes before he becomes exhausted. It's likely that Hulk could simply outlast Goku, and finish him off when he wears himself out.

SSJ4 has shit feats, tis why no one's brought it up.

We've now moved past this, in my opinion. So...your points of SS3 (not to mention SS4) not having enough stamina to rock Hulk for quite awhile, are pretty much invalid at this point.

Hulk can regenerate; energy attacks won't work. And if the planet blows up Hulk can survive the vacuum of space; Goku can't.

Not totally true. Again, go back and read round one of the tournament. Also, as stated in Wolverine threads, you don't need to kill the guy to advance. You just need to knock him out, and I think Hulk can be knocked out. He'll regen, but you drastically over-estimate the rate at which he does so.

If Kid Buu could push the Spirit Bomb back, I'm sure a being that can rip planets apart with his raw strength could too.

Didn't we decide that planet-ripping-aparting would effectively end the battle? I also haven't seen a lot of things that suggest Hulk could handle or re-direct pure energy. So many characters even in the DBZ universe can't do it without years of training. It's like Sidius throwing lightning at Yoda; only people trained in the art of absorbing energy can actually do it. Where's Hulk getting the means to just take energy and re-direct it where he wants?

Super Dragon Fist only works when Goku absorbs the Spirit Bomb; and it probably wouldn't work due to Hulk's regeneration.

While it is unlikely that Hulk would allow Goku time to do everything necessary to use the Super Dragon Fist. However, again I feel you're over-estimating Hulk's regen rate.

His only main advantage is flight. Even his speed is nullified due to the fact his stamina is so much lower than the Hulks.

Are you kidding? Have you seen a DBZ fight? They last like 6 years... I don't whether it takes more stamina for Goku to fly around for all that time, or for me to sit through an entire battle...

The martial artist has a snowballs chance in Hell of winning if the bodybuilder is nearly is fast, has more stamina, is more durable, and can regenerate

Really? You're going to boil down Goku to a "martial artist"? The greatest of all Saiyan warriors, and he's now a "martial artist" for the sake of winning your argument.

He overestimated himself twice as a SSJ3. First against Fat Buu and again against Kid Buu; in reality he couldn't have defeated either because he did not know his limitations. Against Hulk it'll be the same thing, except that Hulk will eventually get stronger as the fight rolls on thanks to his anger, while Goku will tire quickly due to massive ki bleeding.

Hulk and I have something in common... The longer you make shit up, the more angry I become, and the more you suffer from massive anal -erm- ki bleeding... The problem with ALL of your points is they hinge on the fact that GT and the SS4 transformation is bullshit. Turns out you're wrong, and now pretty much everything you've said is void. Like this whole vendetta you have against SS3 and "ki bleeding".

Based on the research that I've done Hulk's regeneration is on the same level as Cells. Meaning that if Goku blows off a limb or shoots a ki blast through him, Hulk can heal himself...well... as fast as Cell could heal himself.

I would love to see the numbers on that one. Call me ignorant, but I don't think I've ever seen Hulk grow back an arm at rapid speed.

It's already been noted that Hulk has more raw strength than even SSJ3 Goku, so base Goku would have no chance overpowering Hulk with the Spirit Bomb

. Lots of things have been noted. Not many things have been supported.

Super Dragon Fist doesn't destroy someone outright; it just makes a big hole, a hole that Hulk could close within moments.

And what's Goku going to do in those moments? Stand there and let Hulk heal up? Even just reading his WIki shows that Hulk takes several minutes to heal from being sliced open in the middle; he had to stop his guts from spilling out in the process. Put a giant hole in the middle of his body, and it's going to take longer to heal. I'd love to watch Hulk running around, trying to keep his heart from falling out.

It's not against the rules, but you'd be foolish to include the fillers because they aren't part of the authors original work. Toriyama was an executive producer for GT; he may have designed some of the characters but he didn't write their back stories, their personalities, or any of the episodes that feature them.

You are still missing the point of canon, which by itself is extremely subjective. I enjoy that you're just trying to put a definitive label on it and pretend there's evidence to back up your claim. There's not. Canon isn't defined by the original author's penmanship.

What are you talking about? Frieza clearly played Goku and made him look like a fool by trying to destroy the planet knowing that the saiyan couldn't survive. Goku cannot breathe in space but Hulk can, so if the planet gets blown up on accident Goku's fucked.

Sure. And so is the tournament. Also, Hulk's ability to survive in space is definitely limited. Assuming this tournament is held on Earth, he's got a bit to travel to get to the closest sustainable environment.

There's no evidence in the canon to support Goku's physical strength increasing from SSJ2 to SSJ3; speed and energy levels? Yes.

Except that the opponents he fought continued to get stronger and stronger, and he continued to defeat them one after another. What do you want, for Toriyama to just write in a scene were Goku explains all the power levels of his incarnations? How utterly contrived and juvenile that product would be...

He stated it, but he didn't know his body's limitations. SSJ3 is not a transformation that can be withstood by a living body. Goku has to either be dead or in a fused body to get the most out of the transformation. That's why SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

I..don't even...wut? Oh that's right. Canon issues. You screwing Goku out of legitimate canon-based material to win your arguments. That's right...

Goku can only charge the Spirit Bomb in base form, so if Hulk knocks him out of the air, which he can and probably would if Goku were to try for the Spirit Bomb, he'd be helpless.

Funny that you mention it. Because that little fact happens to come directly from one of the movies you reject as being legitimate.

Hulk would not give him the opportunity to transform back if he chose to drop the transformation to charge the Spirit Bomb

Takes him about .5 seconds for SSJ, 1 second for SSJ2, and five seconds for SSJ3 a the final extent of his power seen in GT.

Wrong; the strength of the characters really hadn't increased that much on a grand scale. With Super Buu being a couple hundred fold stronger than Frieza; not millions or whatever. Still planet busters at best.

Are you actually suggesting that a hundred fold increase in power isn't significant?

You are trying to fill in blanks with evidence that was never even shown; stop assuming.

Wrath of the Dragon isn't canon; stop bullshitting me.

See above.

It was stated quite clearly in the manga that the SSJ3 form was never supposed to be used by a living body, only fused and dead beings could get the most out of the transformation.

So whatever, call it an inconsistency. You want me to research the hundreds of inconsistencies in the dozens of various Hulk forms? Marvel is littered with things that don't make sense in terms of continuity. So does anime and manga. It happens.

Wrath of the Dragon was written and produced by TOEI; Toriyama had fuck all to do with it. That's why we use the canon for continuation and feats because it's the closest thing to the author's original work. Do you know anything about DBZ? You are showing me that you don't.

If the creators of DBZ didn't wave Wrath of the Dragon into production, it wouldn't have happened. Plain and simple. It's not like you can just make money off a series without having it officialized by trademark and copyright laws. I'm suck of hearing you explain away canon issues you don't fully understand.

I don't care who wins this fight. I could not give fewer fucks. I think it'd be a war, and I don't count out Hulk in any way. But your inconsistent, false claims about DBZ make me want Goku to win. Or maybe he should lose again, as to not fall under fire from you again in the final round. It all comes down to this: canon is not what you think it is. Plenty of things in life have been done without the direct input of the original creator. Writers and producers and directors change all the time. A lot of the arguments you're making for Hulk do not, IN ANY WAY, come from the mind of the original Hulk writer.

EDIT: I see you creeping in here Echelon.

 

[Bernkastel]

Buckle in boys and girls. This is going to be a long one, and Echelon is probably going to think I hate him afterwards. I do not. But I also think he needs to stop posting about Dragon Ball Z, because this isn't the first (not even the second time) I've caught a lot of blatantly wrong statements being thrown around. Stick to what you know my friend; your influence in the tournament is too great to be bullshitting at such a late point in the game.

It's all friendly fire.

You cannot sit on here and talk about how fast he is, and how fast his transformations make him (in comparison to the strength he apparently doesn't gain; another point we'll get to in a minute), and then turn around and say that Hulk can move just as fast.

I said ALMOST as fast. Hulk can jump high enough to send himself into orbit, and he can do it within a couple of seconds

Spoiler

Goku is not going to pull a Flash and fly around the Earth a bunch of times and waste his energy.

The beast's strength gives him ridiculous speed, but most of his movement utility comes in his leaps. He doesn't really do a lot of running; mostly jumping from building to building. He actually has been known to jump up so high he can take out planes... So there's a point in your favor, and you didn't even have to work for it.

Yes leaps... exactly how the Z Fighters used to fight before they learned how to fly.

But comparing that to Goku, at max power, really pushing himself? Don't make me post that video again, Echelon.

Hulk held his own against Sentry, someone who's much stronger than Goku. If posting that gives you comfort in your ignorance, then post it as many times as you'd like.

That's debatable. Maybe true, because after all Hulk is one of the most powerful beings ever, but don't write off Goku quite yet. He's taken incredible beatings, and powered out of some of the strongest enemies that galaxy has to offer. Before going any further though, there are thigns we need to discuss...

It's not debatable. Goku's best feat involving physical strength was ripping a mountain apart, while Hulk has been shown destroying asteroids and holding a dying planet together to keep it from exploding. Goku has no strength feats that come even close to that.

There you go, making shit up again. This point is of vital importance, so I'm getting it out of the way now.
JUST BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL WRITER DID NOT HELM CONTENT, DOES NOT MEAN IT IS IMMEDIATELY DISQUALIFIED FROM BEING CANON.
"Canon" is just another word for "official", not "original". Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan wrote the screenplay for Empire Strikes Back off George Lucas' story prompts, while he oversaw production. Does that mean the greatest Star Wars film in history isn't canon? By your standards, it apparently does... With things like Star Wars there are layers and layers of different types of canon. Timothy Zahn has written some incredible books that Lucas himself has canonized. So please...stop making things up.

I'm sorry you're right. Of course DBGT is canon... along with all the movies, games, and specials even though Toriyama didn't write any off them. And hey, what about the fan written DBAF? Where Goku goes SSJ5. And what about my fanfiction? The one where Goku gets LOLstomped by the Hulk. That must be canon too.

Do you know how absurd all of that sounds? Manga is not like comics. It has one author and one clear canon. If it's not written by the mangaka it ain't canon. Get it? Got it? Good.

Here's the bottom line; Toriyama himself oversaw all production of DBGT. Did he write it all? No. But you'd think...if he's sitting in a room making production calls and taking the time to piece it together - let alone fund it - he probably agreed with what is going on. It was televised through Funimation, using the official copyright and trademark logos of the Dragon Ball brand. It's about as canon as canon can get.

All that fucking makes it is million dollar fanfiction. If Toriyama wrote any of the movies or specials then at the very least he would have mentioned the events in the manga to make those events semi-canon; he didn't even do that.

And yes, SS4 Goku counts. It's canon. Toriyama drew the first sketches of it. And that's what frustrates me. We're so far into the tournament, and you have effectively handicapped Goku by claiming his most powerful form isn't legitimate, and people trust you. Blind leading the blind.

SSJ4 is semi-canon at best because Toriyama did come up with the design. But he did not come up with the backstory, the transformation sequence, or how the form was supposed to work. That was all TOEI, and the feats for the form are shit.

SSJ4 Goku's best strength feat was lifting a cityblock. Fucking impressive

Any actual proof to back up this claim? I have none to deny you, but I wasn't making the point in the first place. Just questioning your rebuttal.

If you have no rebuttal then don't try to get into a pissing contest with me.

Right you are. As shown every time he fights somebody new, Goku also finds new energy and levels of power to draw from. The angrier he gets, and the motivation he finds to keep fighting, the more he'll reach down and find new levels of strength and stamina that he's never used before. It's the nature of basic anime writing: characters keep getting more powerful, consistently, until the show ends.

If Goku was in a dead body and could use SSJ3 properly with unlimited stamina, my vote probably would have gone the other way. Since he's not that form puts a tax on his energy reserves that makes someone like the Hulk the worst possible opponent.

Yeah. Sure. The first few times he does it... In a few of the movies you don't claim are canon, sure. Buuuut about the time GT rolls around it's clear that Goku has the technique mastered. In Kid Goku form against Baby, Goku goes SS3 in about five seconds flat. And that was in a state quite a few power levels under what he was capable in his "adult" form. By the final fights in GT Goku could probably take naps in the SS3 form.

Even in GT Goku was shown unable to handle the transformation even though he had regrown his tail. Being in a child's body wasn't supposed to matter, but it still failed.

But even then assuming that he would have mastered the form in a living body by the end of the series when it's not suggested nor demonstrated is just grasping at straws.

Goku probably would try hand to hand combat. Because he always does. I'm not saying it's a smart idea, but he's Goku, and he really likes to push his limits and figure out his opponents before formulating some sort of plan. He'd probably walk right up and start punching and kicking away.

In my opinion, the closest opponent Goku has to Hulk is Broly. The guy, in his super form, was unstoppable. Nothing anybody did breached him. He seemed the pure form of raw power and energy. When he and Goku collided in their fully charged states, the planet literally started ripping apart beneath them. That is power.

Yeah, and I'm not saying that Hulk wouldn't be hurt, but I am suggesting that Hulk would likely outlast Goku due to the fact that he's physically stronger, more durable, can regenerate, and he has more stamina. Goku has been shown incapable of holding the SSJ3 for longer than a few minutes, where as Hulk can fight for hours without slowing down.

We've now moved past this, in my opinion. So...your points of SS3 (not to mention SS4) not having enough stamina to rock Hulk for quite awhile, are pretty much invalid at this point.

How? Not one person defending Goku has been able to counter this point. All of you have been herping and derping that because it's SSJ3 Goku he somehow autowins. Massive ki bleeding caused by the form is what's going to cost Goku the match.

Not totally true. Again, go back and read round one of the tournament. Also, as stated in Wolverine threads, you don't need to kill the guy to advance. You just need to knock him out, and I think Hulk can be knocked out. He'll regen, but you drastically over-estimate the rate at which he does so.

And Goku can't? Not even by a being that's massively physically stronger tham he is? If Hulk can hold a planet together with his strength then even one good shot from the green beast would have Goku reeling.

Didn't we decide that planet-ripping-aparting would effectively end the battle? I also haven't seen a lot of things that suggest Hulk could handle or re-direct pure energy. So many characters even in the DBZ universe can't do it without years of training. It's like Sidius throwing lightning at Yoda; only people trained in the art of absorbing energy can actually do it. Where's Hulk getting the means to just take energy and re-direct it where he wants?

Spoiler

Of Hulk can handle Sentry's attacks then he wouldn't have a problem with Goku's.

While it is unlikely that Hulk would allow Goku time to do everything necessary to use the Super Dragon Fist. However, again I feel you're over-estimating Hulk's regen rate.

I'm merely parroting what others have posted, and from what I've researched. Do some investigating and decide for yourself if you want.

Are you kidding? Have you seen a DBZ fight? They last like 6 years... I don't whether it takes more stamina for Goku to fly around for all that time, or for me to sit through an entire battle...

In anime form, where the producers draw out fights to make episodes the full 20 minutes. In the manga the fights only last a coupe of chapters. The Kid Buu vs SSJ3 Goku fight lasted less than one.

Really? You're going to boil down Goku to a "martial artist"? The greatest of all Saiyan warriors, and he's now a "martial artist" for the sake of winning your argument.

What the fuck else is he then? A magician? Apparently so.

Hulk and I have something in common... The longer you make shit up, the more angry I become, and the more you suffer from massive anal -erm- ki bleeding... The problem with ALL of your points is they hinge on the fact that GT and the SS4 transformation is bullshit.

Okay Killam let's fucking use SSJ4 then...

SSJ4 Goku best physical strength feat = holding up a city block

SSJ4 Goku best energy strength feat = using the 10X Kamehameha to blow Baby into the sun.

Sounds impressive until you realize that SSJ did the same thing to Cooler. So based on feats from non canon material, SSJ4 Goku = SSJ Goku.

Do you still want to use SSJ4?

Turns out you're wrong, and now pretty much everything you've said is void. Like this whole vendetta you have against SS3 and "ki bleeding".

If it wasn't true, I wouldn't use it...

Spoiler

I would love to see the numbers on that one. Call me ignorant, but I don't think I've ever seen Hulk grow back an arm at rapid speed. Lots of things have been noted. Not many things have been supported.

I know little about Hulk, so I did research... you know, it's the thing you do when you don't know something... and that's what I found. For evidence anyway.

And I've gone into detail explaining my position, and all I've heard in response is "Your wrong because Goku wins because he's Goku."

The man's even more wanked than Sailor Moon.

And what's Goku going to do in those moments? Stand there and let Hulk heal up? Even just reading his WIki shows that Hulk takes several minutes to heal from being sliced open in the middle; he had to stop his guts from spilling out in the process. Put a giant hole in the middle of his body, and it's going to take longer to heal. I'd love to watch Hulk running around, trying to keep his heart from falling out.

So just ignore the Ki bleeding; his strength and stamina slowly being sapped from him. He has to expend energy to hurt Hulk, and he won't be getting it back. I see Goku going for a big attack like he did against Kid Buu only for it fail as Goku starts to slow from fatigue, giving Hulk time to regenerate.

You are still missing the point of canon, which by itself is extremely subjective. I enjoy that you're just trying to put a definitive label on it and pretend there's evidence to back up your claim. There's not. Canon isn't defined by the original author's penmanship.

You don't read or watch allot of manga and anime, I get it. They aren't like American comics, which have multiple author's and can have multiple canons; for Japanese series there is only one canon, and that's the original work by the author [whether it be the manga, OVA, or whatever.]

If you extend the canonical universe past that, you may as well be adding all the fanfiction and fan comics as well because there is no clear cut off.

Sure. And so is the tournament. Also, Hulk's ability to survive in space is definitely limited. Assuming this tournament is held on Earth, he's got a bit to travel to get to the closest sustainable environment.

As is Goku's...

Except that the opponents he fought continued to get stronger and stronger, and he continued to defeat them one after another. What do you want, for Toriyama to just write in a scene were Goku explains all the power levels of his incarnations? How utterly contrived and juvenile that product would be...

He doesn't have to when the evidence for feats never improves. If physical strength increases from form to form, don't you think we would have seen a clear example?

We see feats for increased speed, increased energy, and stamina, but not physical strength... just people punching each other through mountains time and time again.

I..don't even...wut? Oh that's right. Canon issues. You screwing Goku out of legitimate canon-based material to win your arguments. That's right...

How can I be screwing him out of something when the manga clearly explains the drawbacks of the SSJ3 form

Funny that you mention it. Because that little fact happens to come directly from one of the movies you reject as being legitimate.

Wrong. That is manga canon, and has been demonstrated several times... even in the Kid Buu saga.

Takes him about .5 seconds for SSJ, 1 second for SSJ2, and five seconds for SSJ3 a the final extent of his power seen in GT.

He has to expend effort to use SSJ3. He can't just pop into the form like the others... although I will say it wouldn't take him half an episode either.

Are you actually suggesting that a hundred fold increase in power isn't significant?

Show me manga evidence of any DBZ character destroying anything larger than a planet. You won't because they can't.

So whatever, call it an inconsistency. You want me to research the hundreds of inconsistencies in the dozens of various Hulk forms? Marvel is littered with things that don't make sense in terms of continuity. So does anime and manga. It happens.

Not when two people in the series are shown to use the form. One being alive but can't keep up the transformation for more than a few minutes; the other being a fused being who can use the form with unlimited stamina despite being limited by time.

Doesn't sound like an inconsistency to me.

If the creators of DBZ didn't wave Wrath of the Dragon into production, it wouldn't have happened. Plain and simple. It's not like you can just make money off a series without having it officialized by trademark and copyright laws. I'm suck of hearing you explain away canon issues you don't fully understand.

I understand them perfectly; this whole post I've heard you try and make excuses for a character in a show you don't understand by adding a bunch of inconsistencies.

I don't care who wins this fight. I could not give fewer fucks. I think it'd be a war, and I don't count out Hulk in any way. But your inconsistent, false claims about DBZ make me want Goku to win. Or maybe he should lose again, as to not fall under fire from you again in the final round. It all comes down to this: canon is not what you think it is. Plenty of things in life have been done without the direct input of the original creator. Writers and producers and directors change all the time. A lot of the arguments you're making for Hulk do not, IN ANY WAY, come from the mind of the original Hulk writer.

There's a reason why the majority of fans thought that GT was shit, and that's because Toriyama had practically nothing to do with it. And the movies and games probably add in more inconsistencies and contradictions to the series than I will ever find for a comic book character.

I think opposition for debating side is good, so feel free to respond again.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

The Hulk possesses the potential for limitless physical strength depending directly on his emotional state, particularly his anger.[45] This has been reflected in the repeated comment, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets." After probing, the entity Beyonder once claimed that the Hulk's potential strength had "no finite element inside."[46] His durability, regeneration, and endurance also increase in proportion to his temper.[47] Greg Pak described the Worldbreaker Hulk shown during World War Hulk as having a level of physical power where "Hulk was stronger than any mortal—and most immortals—who ever walked the Earth."[48]
The Hulk's level of strength is normally limited by Banner's subconscious influence. When Hulk allowed Jean Grey to psionically "shut Banner off", he reached a scale of power on which he managed to overpower and destroy the physical form of the villain Onslaught.[49]
The Hulk is resistant to most forms of injury or damage. The extent varies between interpretations, but he has withstood the equivalent of solar temperatures,[50] nuclear explosions,[51] and planet-shattering impacts.[52] Despite his remarkable resiliency, continuous barrages of high-caliber gunfire can hinder his movement to some degree, and this has been consistently portrayed outside the comic books, in both live-action films and animation. He has been shown to have both regenerative and adaptive healing abilities, including growing tissues to allow him to breathe underwater,[53] surviving unprotected in space for extended periods,[54][55] and when injured, healing from most wounds within seconds.[56] As an effect, he has an extremely prolonged lifespan.[57]
The Hulk's powerful legs allow him to leap into lower Earth orbit or across continents,[58] and he has displayed sufficient superhuman speed to match Thor,[59] and Sentry.[60]
He also possesses less commonly described powers, including abilities allowing him to "home in" to his place of origin in New Mexico,[61] resist psychic control,[62] or unwilling transformation;[63] grow stronger from radiation[64] or dark magic;[65] and to see and interact with astral forms.[66] The Hulk is also able to generate omnidirectional "worldbreaker" bursts of kinetic energy that completely destroy the planet he is standing on.[67]
In the early days of the first Hulk comic series, "massive" doses of gamma rays (such as from the explosion of a hand-held nuclear grenade) would cause the Hulk to transform back to Bruce Banner, although this ability was written out of the character by the 1970s.

The powers and abilities of Goku are much more widespread and there's no list that's fully accurate and they are all different in some way. Even Wikipedia doesn't seem to have it all.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Solid points. That's really what I was looking for all along anyways. As I said, I don't really care who wins this fight because I've been frustrated to no end about people advancing by popularity, dumb points not being properly contested, etc etc. I just saw a lot of things you posted without any real proof to back it up, and I didn't want a solid fighter to go down like that. In the end, Juggernaut will win anyways. This fight likely won't matter when it's all said and done.

In all honesty I think Hulk is one of the few beings in the galaxy - you know...if they were in the same galaxy - that could take Goku. You're right in that if it came down to a battle of pure endurance, Hulk can't lose. Like, it's almost physically impossible for him to weaken.

If we remove all the non-consequential mud slinging and just strip our arguments down to the core, they are mainly:

1) We disagree on the meaning of canon. I believe Goku should be valid through GT, and include the films that were eventually dubbed by FUNimation. If you want to argue that they don't mean as much, because Toriyama didn't personal write the story, that's fine. I get that. I didn't hate GT, and I think they need to be held at least in a secondary line of canon under the main series, and above the video games. Your fan-fic can have a tier all unto itself.

2) I still think you're over-estimated Hulk's regen factor in its speed, but not its ultimate effectiveness.

 

[Snitsky4GM]

You guys are driving me crazy with this regen shit. Did you not view the screens I posted? His skin is flayed off, muscle burnt down basically to the bone. But his regen powers are shit... good lord.

Oh and I'm sorry he isn't a universe destroyer... but he did destroy a pocket universe.... with a thunderclap.

Hulk's regen can be powerful or it can not. Gamma exposure tends to hasten his ability to regenerate. Maestro had his neck broken by Proteus and it took him years to recover. In the one-shot comic "Hulk: The End," Hulk is repeatedly devoured by mutated cockroaches much like how Prometheus is in Greek mythology but he regenerates from this every time it happens though. This is due to all other life on Earth being exterminated by a nuclear holocaust.

Going back in time though to some real Hulk stuff there is the great example of Maestro Hulk. Maestro knew from his own experience that this would be a very effective way to disable his younger version so that's exactly what he did to Hulk, and then proceeded to send his bitches to make Hulk more comfortable even though he was paralyzed.

I love Hulk, but this is a tournament where death isn't the only way to win the fight. The way the writers at Marvel have given Hulk this essential immortality that even immortals don't have just comes off as a cheat code to me. Even when he goes up against vastly superior beings like Thanos and Zeus they don't kill Hulk because of the healing factor. At the end of the day though they have been capable of knocking out or incapacitating even an enraged Hulk, so he isn't an invulnerable being.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I figured that this would be a hotly contested and close match.

In many ways, Goku is kind of like a Japanese version of Superman when you look at the overall level of his powers, what many of his powers are and how high those powers are. The fact that Goku is a martial arts master only compounds things even further.

The Incredible Hulk is sheer brute force personified. There's nothing fancy or flashy about his powers or how he handles things. In terms of sheer brute strength, he's arguably the strongest being in comic books, aside from your various beings like Galactus, the Celestials, Living Tribunal and all those sort.

In terms of fighting skill, Goku is the better fighter. The Hulk's fighting abilities have improved dramatically since the Planet Hulk storyline several years back in which the Hulk actually had to learn gladiatorial style combat and use of weaponry in order to survive.

In terms of sheer strength, I have to go with the Hulk. The Hulk's strength, not to mention his other powers, increases with his anger. Basically, the madder he gets the stronger he gets. While I'm sure that there is an actual limit as to how much he can lift or move, you'd probably have to have a degree in physics to calculate it.

As far as the various other physical attributes goes, Goku is faster and more agile than the Hulk. Goku's agility is on a Spider-Man type level and the fact that Goku can fly extremely fast only makes his speed that much more of an asset. The Hulk is surprisingly fast, superhumanly so, for his size but he's not in Goku's league there. In terms of stamina, I think the Hulk has it. As with his strength, his anger fuels his stamina and the guy can just flat out go and keep going. In terms of durability & healing, again, I have to go with the Hulk. The Hulk is very durable, but not so durable that Goku can't hurt him and vice versa. If I remember the DBZ cartoons, Goku didn't have a superhuman healing factor on his own. If he was hurt in a fight, the effects of the injuries were visible and he had to take something...what was it..a sensu bean? Was that the name of it? Anyhow, I remember a few times in which he took something, I could swear it was a bean, and it immediately replenished & healed him. If I remember correctly as well, they didn't have very many of those at all. The Hulk has one of the most advanced healing factors in comics. While superhuman healing is a fairly common power, guys like the Hulk & Wolverine have among the most developed healing abilities. I recall an issue, I can't remember the exact one but it's been a long while back, the Hulk fully regenerated his body after having most of his tissue incinerated from his body within just a matter of moments.

Goku has some major energy wielding capabilities that could do a vast amount of damage. If Goku poured everything he had into a single blast of energy, I mean not holding back whatsoever, then I think he could pull it off. He'd probably, literally, wind up destroying the planet and himself in the process. Again, if I remember the old DBZ cartoons correctly, Goku couldn't survive in a vacuum. So if he did destroy the planet, he'd soon die from exposure to the vacuum of space.

As there are various different Hulk personalities & incarnations, success might depend upon which incarnation Goku faced off against. If he fought the Gray Hulk, AKA Joe Fixit, or "The Professor", I think he could possibly win. The Gray Hulk is the smallest incarnation and while he does have the rage enhanced powers, it takes them much longer to elevate him to levels he might normally reach. The Professor incarnation, which we saw a lot of back in the 90s, has a subconscious fail safe that will transform him back into Bruce Banner once his anger reaches a certain level. Banner has always feared that the Hulk would one day reach a level of anger in which there'd be no stopping or controlling him. So he's not as overall powerful as other incarnations. The Savage Hulk, the classic Hulk, is the one that we see most often. Then there's the World War Hulk, which is kind of the ultimate incarnation. In this form, both the Banner & Hulk personalities coexist and work together. This version is the most powerful of the Hulks, has access to Banner's intelligence, can use strategy quite well and retains his full knowledge of combat techniques.

Since Goku would be unwilling to destroy the planet in order to take out the Hulk, I have to go with the Hulk on this. I think that the Hulk would eventually be too much for Goku to handle, especially if Goku sustains injury in their fight, which is pretty much a certainty. Can't blame anyone for voting for Goku at the same time. If Goku was a ruthless bastard that was willing to do ANYTHING to ensure victory, even at the cost of billions of lives, then I'd vote for him. Since that's not who he is, I just don't think he'd take it.

He'd give the Hulk a hell of a struggle, I've no doubt about that. I also think that it's entirely possible that he could win in a straight up fight. I just think it's more likely that Hulk would eventually just relentlessly keep pounding on him to the point where he was unable to continue.

 

[Milkyway!]

To my knowledge we're not supposed to assume that there are going to be billions of people in the fight. We're supposed to only assume two people are involved Goku, and Hulk. Thus I find the argument that Goku would lose based on the idea that he wouldn't just blow up the planet to be invalid.

Hulk comes off as having anger problems, and considering Goku wouldn't know who Bruce Banner is we aren't to assume that Goku would restrain himself against Hulk. Thus it wouldn't be surprising why people would find Hulk to be a villain, dangerous, or evil. Goku would not hold back in this fight meaning Goku would be fighting at full strength.

Throughout the Dragonball, Dragonball Z, and Dragonball GT series we saw Goku commit many acts of brute strength going as far as pushing a 600 ton bolder as a child in Dragonball series. From there Goku only gets stronger, and stronger, and stronger. Hulk is strill stronger more likely, but I'm simply not counting Goku out.

However it's also important to take into consideration how fast Goku is. Seriously can Hulk catch Goku? Can he fly? Can he move at the speed of light? We can't assume that brute strength will be enough to defeat Goku.

Take Future Trunks for example. His strength surpassed that of Cells in the Cell saga but because he sacrificed so much speed in doing so Cell completely demolished him. Strength simply is not enough to take down an all around fight like Goku.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

To my knowledge we're not supposed to assume that there are going to be billions of people in the fight. We're supposed to only assume two people are involved Goku, and Hulk. Thus I find the argument that Goku would lose based on the idea that he wouldn't just blow up the planet to be invalid.

Huh? He can't survive in space so why would he blow the planet up? In fact, if anyone is going to benefit from just destroying the planet as a tactic, it would be the Hulk because he would last longer in space (and given the fact that they mysteriously appear in this multiverse to fight in the first place, it would be a safe assumption that he would be rescued just as soon as Goku passed out in the vacuum).

Hulk comes off as having anger problems, and considering Goku wouldn't know who Bruce Banner is we aren't to assume that Goku would restrain himself against Hulk. Thus it wouldn't be surprising why people would find Hulk to be a villain, dangerous, or evil. Goku would not hold back in this fight meaning Goku would be fighting at full strength.

Nope! It was argued in the last round how spectacular he is at assessing his foes abilities. All sites listing his powers state that he also knows whether a foe is good or evil so he will know that the Hulk is one of the good guys.

Throughout the Dragonball, Dragonball Z, and Dragonball GT series we saw Goku commit many acts of brute strength going as far as pushing a 600 ton bolder as a child in Dragonball series. From there Goku only gets stronger, and stronger, and stronger. Hulk is strill stronger more likely, but I'm simply not counting Goku out.

See my earlier post where the Hulk pulls the tectonic plates of a planet back together - I believe that should trump boulders.

However it's also important to take into consideration how fast Goku is. Seriously can Hulk catch Goku? Can he fly? Can he move at the speed of light? We can't assume that brute strength will be enough to defeat Goku.

First off, many DB afficianos dispel the whole 'speed of light' notion as either bad translation or exaggeration. Secondly, no-one actually knows the true speed of ol' Green Skin, his running speed on Earth is affected by the fact he can't gain traction because his legs move so fast (hence jumping across the planet). Going with the theory that we are know operating in a universe where Flash's powers are allowed, then it is not a unfair assessment that Hulk would have traction on this planet and Marvel's most powerful mortal legs might just surprise you with their speed.

Take Future Trunks for example. His strength surpassed that of Cells in the Cell saga but because he sacrificed so much speed in doing so Cell completely demolished him. Strength simply is not enough to take down an all around fight like Goku.

How about we take World War Hulk instead were the Green Scar defeats the vast majority of the Marvel cannon, irrespective of their power sets (even out-thinking some of the big brains).

 

[Snitsky4GM]

Huh? He can't survive in space so why would he blow the planet up? In fact, if anyone is going to benefit from just destroying the planet as a tactic, it would be the Hulk because he would last longer in space (and given the fact that they mysteriously appear in this multiverse to fight in the first place, it would be a safe assumption that he would be rescued just as soon as Goku passed out in the vacuum).

I never thought of this as being a viable tactic because people keep throwing around that Goku can't survive in space, plus it is kind of a cheap way to fight that I don't think Goku would ever do. If he did decide to just blow up the planet all hail mary he doesn't have to stay there, he could instant transmission to the nearest oxygen rich atmosphere and leave Hulk for dead. Like I said though, cheap and out of character.

First off, many DB afficianos dispel the whole 'speed of light' notion as either bad translation or exaggeration. Secondly, no-one actually knows the true speed of ol' Green Skin, his running speed on Earth is affected by the fact he can't gain traction because his legs move so fast (hence jumping across the planet). Going with the theory that we are know operating in a universe where Flash's powers are allowed, then it is not a unfair assessment that Hulk would have traction on this planet and Marvel's most powerful mortal legs might just surprise you with their speed.

Actually the top speed of Hulk is known. He can run at around 700 mph and is capable of jumping into orbit which would put him at Earth's escape velocity of 7 mps. This is quite impressive speed for a big bruiser such as himself, but he has never been shown to have enhanced reflexes or agility to this level because smaller faster heroes and villains exploit his size.

 

[Ming]

*sigh*

The Hulk is winning yet no one can post a decent or even relevant argument as to why. It's Samus Aran v Commander Shepard all over again.

IT DOESN'T MATTER that the Hulk gets stronger when he gets angrier, this isn't a fucking arm wrestle. Goku doesn't need to be stronger to defeat the Hulk, his speed will mean The Hulk will barely touch him. And if the Hulk can't catch Goku, why would his strength matter? Answer: It wouldn't, and don't even bother trying to argue Hulk's speed over Goku's. You'd be bullshitting if you did. Goku's afterimage technique will leave the Hulk confused and vulnerable to an Instant Transmission Kamehameha of great power. Anyone remember the Instant Transmission Kamehameha? Here's a reminder:

[YOUTUBE]eg1bCXFLKdY[/YOUTUBE]​

Cell grew the whole of his upper body back, can Hulk do that? NO HE CANNOT. And there's Goku's victory for you, it's not hard to grasp guys. And Goku's grown stronger since that happened, that means a much quicker Kamehameha that does even more damage, Hulk loses.

Goku wins. Vote Goku.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I never thought of this as being a viable tactic because people keep throwing around that Goku can't survive in space, plus it is kind of a cheap way to fight that I don't think Goku would ever do. If he did decide to just blow up the planet all hail mary he doesn't have to stay there, he could instant transmission to the nearest oxygen rich atmosphere and leave Hulk for dead. Like I said though, cheap and out of character.

Who says this is a viable option? This isn't the DB or Marvel Universe - who says there is a oxygen rich atmosphere for him to escape too? Given the ideal behind this concept, I'd be more of a mind that this would be a planet more akin to Battleworld were there is no escape clause.

Actually the top speed of Hulk is known. He can run at around 700 mph and is capable of jumping into orbit which would put him at Earth's escape velocity of 7 mps. This is quite impressive speed for a big bruiser such as himself, but he has never been shown to have enhanced reflexes or agility to this level because smaller faster heroes and villains exploit his size.

Actually, 700 mph is the speed were the friction that the behemoth's feet create start ripping up Marvel Earth's surface and he ends up running on the spot. As to his reflexes, they have also been shown to be unbelievably quick...

The Sentry can travel to the Sun and back in a matter of minutes - as it takes light eight minutes and change to reach Earth from the surface of the Sun... I'll let you do the maths. Just because he generally doesn't rely on physical speed does not mean that he doesn't have the capability.

 

[Steve0904]

I'm on the same page as Ming here honestly. I won't pretend to know a lot about Hulk, but I haven't read many peoples arguments that actually tell me why Hulk can win or what he can do to beat Goku. It just seems to me a few people arguing about what canon DB/DBZ/DBGT really is.

Hulk trumps Goku in strength and likely stamina by a small margin, but Goku has a decided edge (and I mean decided edge in speed, and yes I know how fast Hulk is.) What's the old saying? Speed kills. The reason Goku can beat Hulk is because he's one of the few people that's actually strong enough to hurt him legitimately with one attack.

I also find it funny how early in this thread there are people saying "DON'T LET GOKU WIN!!" He has a big enough fanbase as it is, yet who's winning now?? Oh...right. Then there was another poster who listed reasons in favour of Goku yet said he voted for the Hulk because (and I quote) "I don't like Goku in contests like these." Why not? Because he's got super strength, uh hello look what he's up against. Hulk is winning this poll, and then you have people just handing the title to Juggernaut anyway. I thought Goku was the guy with the adoring fanbase that was just going to walk away with the title?

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

*sigh*

The Hulk is winning yet no one can post a decent or even relevant argument as to why. It's Samus Aran v Commander Shepard all over again.

IT DOESN'T MATTER that the Hulk gets stronger when he gets angrier, this isn't a fucking arm wrestle. Goku doesn't need to be stronger to defeat the Hulk, his speed will mean The Hulk will barely touch him. And if the Hulk can't catch Goku, why would his strength matter? Answer: It wouldn't, and don't even bother trying to argue Hulk's speed over Goku's. You'd be bullshitting if you did. Goku's afterimage technique will leave the Hulk confused and vulnerable to an Instant Transmission Kamehameha of great power. Anyone remember the Instant Transmission Kamehameha? Here's a reminder:

[YOUTUBE]eg1bCXFLKdY[/YOUTUBE]​

Cell grew the whole of his upper body back, can Hulk do that? NO HE CANNOT. And there's Goku's victory for you, it's not hard to grasp guys. And Goku's grown stronger since that happened, that means a much quicker Kamehameha that does even more damage, Hulk loses.

Goku wins. Vote Goku.

For him to grow it back, it has to be removed first. Something that hasn't occurred yet and not because there are not those who have tried this...

Oh, and Hulk gets much stronger than here as time progresses too.

Better still, given how noble Goku is meant to be, how come he is going to be reduced to long distance warfare? Why will he not face Hulk face to face and skill to skill?

Whether he does or not, most Goku supporters appear to be using the old dumb "Hulk Smash!" version. The Hulk from the 'Planet Hulk' period is incredibly canny; out-thinking the Red King, Blackbolt, Reed Richards, Prof X, Tony Stark and Doc Strange to name just six.

Every ability Goku has been given too defeat Hulk, Hulk has overcome before. He will overcome here too!

I also find it funny how early in this thread there are people saying "DON'T LET GOKU WIN!!" He has a big enough fanbase as it is, yet who's winning now?? Oh...right. Then there was another poster who listed reasons in favour of Goku yet said he voted for the Hulk because (and I quote) "I don't like Goku in contests like these." Why not? Because he's got super strength, uh hello look what he's up against. Hulk is winning this poll, and then you have people just handing the title to Juggernaut anyway. I thought Goku was the guy with the adoring fanbase that was just going to walk away with the title?

What has this to do with the match up? They were wrong because that isn't playing to the spirit of the tournament but you are equally wrong to bring up something that has not been mentioned since very early on. We have now reached the stage were we are debating the relative skills that the two guys bring to the table. As for Snitsky's voting against his belief of who would actually win, that was his choice and he has done a lot of good debating in Goku's favor since.

This is meant to be for fun, ignore comments that have no real bearing on the competition and argue for your choice. That way Hulk's supporters have something to respond too and, if you arguments are good enough, Goku's supporters have something to refer too.

 

[Ming]

For him to grow it back, it has to be removed first. Something that hasn't occurred yet and not because there are not those who have tried this...

Oh, and Hulk gets much stronger than here as time progresses too.

Better still, given how noble Goku is meant to be, how come he is going to be reduced to long distance warfare? Why will he not face Hulk face to face and skill to skill?

Whether he does or not, most Goku supporters appear to be using the old dumb "Hulk Smash!" version. The Hulk from the 'Planet Hulk' period is incredibly canny; out-thinking the Red King, Blackbolt, Reed Richards, Prof X, Tony Stark and Doc Strange to name just six.

Every ability Goku has been given too defeat Hulk, Hulk has overcome before. He will overcome here too!

I'm not convinced one bit. Those guys weren't Goku and none of those attacks were the Kamehameha wave. The Kamehameha Wave is capable of destroying Earth, and you're comparing it to eye beams? Really? Don't be so silly. You're struggling and it's obvious. I haven't even questioned Hulk's intellect. The afterimage technique confuses just about anyone who has eyes, their intelligence doesn't come into play, if there is six or something Gokus, they're going to attack them. Especially if it's the fucking Hulk. The only people who have no trouble with the afterimage technique are those who already know (and Hulk obviously doesn't) about it, and even then they need to strike at least one of the afterimages. Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha would be ready by the time Hulk's done fighting shadows.

Also, questioning Goku's nobility is another example of you grasping at straws. Everytime somebody brings up Goku's need to make things harder for himself, I laugh. They must have confused him with Vegeta. As I've said previously in this tournament, Goku's knows a threat when he sees one, and doesn't always mess about.

 

[Steve0904]

What has this to do with the match up? They were wrong because that isn't playing to the spirit of the tournament but you are equally wrong to bring up something that has not been mentioned since very early on. We have now reached the stage were we are debating the relative skills that the two guys bring to the table. As for Snitsky's voting against his belief of who would actually win, that was his choice and he has done a lot of good debating in Goku's favor since.

This is meant to be for fun, ignore comments that have no real bearing on the competition and argue for your choice. That way Hulk's supporters have something to respond too and, if you arguments are good enough, Goku's supporters have something to refer too.

Well I could've brought it up earlier since I seen those comments a few days ago. In any case the thread will only be about 6 pages, and people will remember what they said a couple days ago. It's not like it will be 70 odd pages. With that said, I've already given a reason why Goku can defeat Hulk, along with a rundown of who has the edge in which categories so I've already given my opinion.