Round 1: Goku vs. Invisible Woman

Discussion in 'Supers Section' started by JGlass, Sep 8, 2012.

?

Who wins?

  1. Goku

  2. Invisible Woman

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  1. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    Goku would be cable to sense her Qi so her invisibility is useless. If you hit her shields hard enough Sue suffers from a Psychic backlash. In other words, Sue's two primary powers are negated by Goku.

    This argument is boiling down to exactly HOW Instantaneous Transmission works, if it allows him to teleport he's won, if he's traveling FASTER THAN LIGHT Sue wouldn't be able to target him and trap him quickly enough after the first attack and will win anyway. There is one and only one way for Susan Storm to win, she needs to see Goku and immediately trap him in a bubble will she ever with no knowledge of her opponent other than he's her opponent immediately resort to trying to kill him?

    Probably not.

    Goku will win this.

    Also guy I quoted, read the thread before you post, k?
     
    #26
  2. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    Except for the fact that if you hit it hard enough there is a psychic backlash against her, one Kamehameha wave and he gives her the biggest migraine shes ever had.
     
    #27
  3. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Again, from Marvel: "...in rare cases, sufficiently powerful attacks on her psionic fields can cause her mental or physical pain..."

    You know what "rare" means, right? I wouldn't call this something Goku can count on, but kudos for thinking outside the usual box.
     
    #28
  4. The 1-2-3 Killam

    The 1-2-3 Killam Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I do believe that Goku uses the ability to go to and from Other World. If Other World exists in a wholly different plane, not in the same time/space as the regular universe, than translocation makes so much more sense.

    Hm. This is actually an extremely valid point. Incredibly simple, but I didn't think of it. I guess I just imagined this big ole' bubble shield around her, but that makes things a bit more interesting. You are right, that is an effective counter to the argument, regardless of the semantics.

    Alright, so Goku can't teleport into her shield without effectively existing in the same body as her. Which would kill her and being terribly graphic and totally outside of the nature of Goku's character. He also probably won't use energy blasts that are powerful enough to break through her shields, because he wouldn't want to kill her or cause harm to the people/places/things around him. And yes, Sue could probably capture him in a field, if she could catch him off guard; presumably at the start of the battle. But I also don't think that Goku would just hover there and admit defeat. There's no real record as to whether Saiyans do or do not need to breath, so that argument should probably just be thrown out; we can't argue it legitimately, and there's no point in defaulting it in either of our favors.

    I also don't know that any field she placed around Goku would be enough to stop him breaking through with physical force. And even if he can't I.T. in her shield, he could probably I.T. OUT of a field surrounding HIM. So it is a bit closer of a fight than I originally anticipated. But I still haven't seen any significant proof that Sue could get incapacitate Goku for long enough to walk away. She certainly couldn't kill him, nor do I think she would. It's likely that after everything she tries, Goku could just beat on her with punches and kicks faster than she could see - somebody like Trunks or Vegeta could, it's unlikely Sue could keep up - and physically assault her shield until she is forced to break it. Goku has definitely been known to to try physical feats of strength over and over and over again.
     
    #29
  5. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    Rare in this case would mean phenomenally powerful, IIRC during world war Hulk he hit her shield and took her out and Goku moves so quick and hits so hard he'd make Hulk look like a chump.
     
    #30
  6. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    So, I guess this comes down to TWO questions now:

    1: Can Sue's Force Fields hold up to Goku? How much of Goku's power can they take before they drop?

    and

    2: Does the nature of Instant Transmission allow Goku to enter or exit her Force Fields?

    In regards to the second point, no matter which "version" of IT we go with Goku still needs a strong Ki signature to lock onto. A little out there, I know, but this leaves open the potential for Storm to "trap" Goku within a variety of fields, forcing him to either depart the field of battle or suffocate.

    In regards to the first question, Sue Storm has used them to rip open the shell of a Celestial, a feat of strength matched by almost NO ONE ELSE in the entire history of the Marvel Universe.
     
    #31
  7. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Yeah, angry Hulk out to push his revenge on the world for his exile is hitting with a hell of a lot more power than Goku. Get off the Sayian's dick, son.
     
    #32
    The 1-2-3 Killam likes this.
  8. The 1-2-3 Killam

    The 1-2-3 Killam Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I wonder if Sue could use her fields to block out Goku's sensory perception... What I mean by that is, if she captured him, I wonder if she could make it so he couldn't lock on to anything to anything, because he couldn't track power levels inside of her shields. I doubt there's any sort of cannon to actually support or disprove this point, but it's worth thinking about.


    Well fought Dirty Jose.
     
    #33
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  9. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    You expect me to believe Susan Storm is gonna know that the moron with the crazy hair and ugly gi standing in front of her causes about as much havoc as Galactus can as soon as a fight start? And knowing Goku's stupidity mixed with his love for fighting, that he's not gonna rush in for a punch? She'll instinctively whip out a shield, but she has no clue Goku can sense her while invisible. If she goes for that rather than go for a bubble in an attempt to choke out someone who's been known for beating people that blow up planets, she's toast. The show goes through a lot of bad comedy that normal people measure up even when Goku and friends hold back. Relying on Sue's forcefield being able to withstand anything Goku can shoot out of his ass to win is pretty much relying on pure luck.

    Say she could withstand it. Can she not lose her focus and drop the shield if Goku uses a Solar Flare? That's of course assuming she get's past Goku's first... Well whatever he decides to do at the start of the match. He's a Saiyan. Not a human. He's been shown to fight underwater for good periods. 5 minutes aren't gonna choke him out. 15, probably and all that does is lower Sue's chances for success on one simple move.
     
    #34
  10. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    Far from it, I want a close fight, also insulting me because you can't answer my point makes you look dumb and I know you aren't.

    Let's start with Kaio Ken, aka, Goku powered up once, and not yet even SSJ. He took out Vegeta who was about to launch a projectile set to destroy the earth. That gives us an indication of his power because it was made clear that Vegeta was outmatched significantly at that point.

    Hulk (at the end of World War Hulk) flipped out so much he couldn't contain his anger and that is the ONLY time (aside from when he was launched at an asteroid - something significantly less substantial than earth since they're small rocks held together by gravity) he's been a credible threat to a planet. Goku defeated a threat that powerful or more (it had also been established that Vegeta was a destroyer of worlds) in Kaio-ken which, as already stated is weaker than SSJ.

    aka, Goku is stronger than the hulk and Kaio-ken is instantaneous, more or less. I don't want it to be the case, but storm is fucked.
     
    #35
  11. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    Uh oh! The "Goku is stronger than anything and everything in the universe" arguments are coming out!

    This is false. Goku at his final form is quite powerful, but let's keep in mind he can't just instantly transform to whatever his final form is. No, it takes him a long time to get such a feat done, and all it takes is a second for Sue Storm to put a near indestructible force field around him and slowly shrink it until it crushes him. Or she can just leave it and suffocate him. Or she pick him up and fling him into orbit.
     
    #36
  12. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    Goku is far from the strongest thing in the universe, I was simply positing that he is stronger than the Hulk, a guy who hit Susan Storm's shields so hard she got knocked out. Weaker guys have done it also (admittedly not many of them, though I think Thing can/has done it and strength wise it's far more easy to argue that Goku and Thing are of equal strength.)

    I wasn't talking about his final form, I was talking about Kaio-Ken, becoming SSJ takes a long time, Kaio-Ken doesn't, at all. It begins and ends in a heartbeat,but in that heartbeat he becomes about 1/2 to 2/3rds the power of SSJ, a form that defeated Frieza who was able to destroy Namek without breaking a sweat.

    There are plenty of people in this tournament who can take out Goku, Psylocke will make him look likes fool for instance, but in this fight Storm is outmatched.

    Also would she actually do that? Can you honestly tell me that Susan Storm would go straight for flinging Goku into space or suffocating him? In all honesty her first field, weak or strong would be used to size Goku up and the instant it goes down he realizes he can't mess around and moves at the speed of light behind her and knocks her out.

    Finished, done, Goku would beat Susan storm. He'll beat Doom and Bane too, Kirby, Hulk or Kenshiro are the first people who would be a threat to him, and unless he faces Hulk, who he's 50/50 against at best he'd lose to both Kenshiro and Kirby.
     
    #37
  13. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    First of all, you didn't really have a point beyond "GOKU IS TEH STONGEST!" (sic).

    Secondly, I did address your point: Hulk in WWH was one beefed up and angry mother fucker, and in case you forgot anger is the source of Hulk's power. Goku couldn't just match that out the gates; he'd also have to had a similarly "bad day", which is just not the case here.

    In answer to your rep, this is why. You aren't making an argument. You're just stamping your foot down and pouting.

    Obviously you never read Planet Hulk. Also, your logic here is laughable.

    #fail

    See? This is why Goku needs to go out now; if you come anywhere close to outdebating the opposition, they will just throw a temper tantrum about how Goku is the strongest ever and can't possibly lose to anything.
     
    #38
  14. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    No I haven't read Planet Hulk, I'm a DC guy. (before anyone starts huffing and puffing I voted against Bane and for Doom so I'm not biased on it, I just haven't real interest in Marvel's comics, too whiny)

    I can understand your point but we've both been sidetracked here. It's not about Goku v Hulk, it's about Goku vs Storm, I know Goku vs Hulk would be close, this wouldn't (also in the Kirby thread I decided to stick up for Kenshiro since only no-one had said anything meaningfully against Kirby whose victory is dependent upon him not having an anatomy that he totally does have)

    I know Goku isn't going to win the whole thing, if the arguments for Kirby win for him there's no way Goku is going over, similarly if Kenshiro beats Kirby Goku doesn't stand a chance, I think the winner of that round will likely face Vader in the final.

    However Goku would beat sue storm, he has an answer to her invisibility, the only thing she has is her shields and he is at least comparable in physical strength to Hulk.

    Also since Goku's speed before he's powered up makes him almost unpercievable to the human eye (only other martial artists can follow the fights in the tournament even in Dragonball) how exactly is she going to target him?
     
    #39
  15. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    TL/DR = I don't really know what I'm talking about much of the time, but I try to make it sound like I do.

    How you go "HULK HAS ONLY BLAH BLAH BLAH ONCE OR TWICE" when you can't even say that for sure; what, did you just skim Wikipedia once before answering?

    So there you go, folks; you can follow Captain Ignorance over here, or you can actually use your brain. Sue Storm deserves better than this.
     
    #40
  16. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    With each passing post this becomes more and more like a presidential primary (vote for me because the other guy does this that and the other) and less like a debate. I'll admit I made a dumbass post and should've quit whilst we were at a stalemate but eh, whatever, I didn't. The evidence is there for all to read, but in a vote like this regardless of our debate 80% of voters will have decided before they even read the opening post.
     
    #41
  17. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Is there research behind that number, or is it just pulled our of the aether? I agree that many come here with their mind set, but many also come here to be convinced. This isn't "Vote for me because the other guy said something silly". This is "Vote for Sue because we've given you compelling reasons to, all backed with a little bit of research to verify what we are saying can be backed up a bit."

    I'm sorry if my abruptness and rough exterior offends, but I have little patience to debate anyone who isn't going to take it serious enough to actually know what the fuck it is they are talking about.

    Moving on...

    Did I mention Sue ripped a hole into (and almost killed) a Celestial? Cause she did. And not many at all can do that. In fact, I can't think of anyone else in Marvel 616 who has. That's quite a testament to the power of her force fields; if they can deal with ripping into the skin of a god, they can deal with Goku's little energy beams.
     
    #42
  18. Shotaro

    Shotaro WZCW's James Howard

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    Aether, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were accurate.

    Dang, I knew her fields were powerful, but I didn't know she punched through a celestial. You are right there, there are only a few guys who are able to do that in Marvel, the Sentinel probably? My knowledge of Marvel is very limited, but I know enough to know that's goddamned impressive.

    Can I ask, how do you see the fight going? I mean we've talked about power vs power but the fight itself. Here's why I see Goku winning:

    The fight starts with Sue going invisible and bubbling up, Goku can still find her and launches some projectiles that fizzle. He flies up into melee whilst dodging projectiles from her and attacks the shield. Realizing how strong it is Goku starts going into Kaio-ken x1 which is damn quick to do. Storm realizes too late, remember she wont know what he's doing instantly, and tries to bubble Goku but he's finished powering up and is just too damn fast for her he can dodge her shields and then attack her, he can effectively attack her from all angles for a prolonged period every time she bubbles he powers up some more (he'd never get to SSJ, but he can stack Kaio-Ken with exponential effects)

    How long can she keep up shields and invisibility on herself whilst trying to be aggressive? Do her shields drop when she attacks? Without a wealth of comics to hand and without that information being on Wikipedia I am left with little else to do but ask.

    The way I see it as long as Goku can continue to avoid her shields (remember we've established that Instantaneous Transmission is speed of light travel if not actual teleportation, so he's undoubtedly fast enough) eventually he's going to get through and once he does it's over.
     
    #43
  19. Max Headroom

    Max Headroom The Master of Disaster

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    No way in hell Goku loses. If she can turn invisible, he'll sense her energy. If she used a field, he has instant transmission, he is free. She has shields? They won't do shit against a spirit bomb or kame-hame-ha. Goku turns super saiyan? Hell the force of him transforming would probably knock her out.

    Goku wins, hands down. (Or up, you know why).
     
    #44
  20. Harthan

    Harthan Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus

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    I'm not very familiar with IW, so I reviewed her bio. What I've got, basically, is this:

    1. Invisibility
    2. Force fields
    3. Mediocre hand-to-hand skills

    Addressing the last first, it's obvious that she can't win this fight in a straight up brawl. Likewise, I don't think turning invisible is necessary a big deal here. Goku is a master warrior in tune with nature and his senses - while I don't know off the top of my head if he's ever been demonstrated to do so, he could easily fight effectively blind. It's the force fields that become very interesting. My first thought was this - if she can project a force field that can withstand the crushing pressure of a black hole, she can certainly imprison Goku in one. However, the problems here are twofold:

    1. If he's protected by such a force field, she cannot win the fight, only delay it, i.e. she would be incapable of harming him.
    2. Instant Transmission allows Goku to escape the field at will. While he generally uses a hand to his head as a focus, this is technically unnecessary and Goku can do it without it. He could therefore pass through the field as he wished; technically, he does not "pass through" so much as he is simply in one place and then in another.

    With the ability to pin Goku down taken away, I'm not sure what more IW can do. She could produce a facsimile of a typical DBZ battle, using the field to move herself, fly, produce shields, and hurl objects at Goku, but Goku's superior training and conditioning would win out in the end.

    Possibly argument against Goku is that he isn't that bright, and IW could outsmart him one way or another, but I'm not sure of any possible move that IW could make to completely eliminate Goku from the fight. In the end, I see him wearing her down and probably not even needing to go to a higher energy state to win this one, and likely not even needing a Kamehameha Wave either.
     
    #45
  21. Justin Satiable

    Justin Satiable Pre-Show Stalwart

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    There is really no contest here. Goku has already demonstrated his abilities against foes that he cannot see. Alongside this, he has incredible strength and speed, plus a diverse range of combat techniques. Goku wins this battle in a one-sided pounding as Silva vs Sonnen without the triangle choke.
     
    #46
  22. SD619

    SD619 Getting Noticed By Management

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    While Goku may not be a genius in the conventional sense of the word, when it comes to a battle, he is a lot smarter than people give him credit for. He may joke around a bit, but once he gets the severity of the situation, he gets serious and tries his best to finish the opponent. Defeating IW may not exactly be a walk in the park, but Goku would be able to manage it.
     
    #47
  23. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    How fast can she erect these force fields? If it's instantly can you show me any example from the comic? How durable are these force fields she traps opponents in? Can these shields survive an exploding planet? If she were to trap Goku in such a predicament, he'd use his full power, even if it costs him a shit ton of energy.

    Right now I'm leaning towards Goku unless you, or any IW supporter, can answer these questions.
     
    #48
  24. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Again they were durable enough to cut through Celestial skin. Her fields go up at the speed of thought; her limitation is that she must focus on them. If she stops thinking of them, they disappear just as quickly. As for the exploding planet bit, there's just no evidence either way, so it's the question one must ask themselves before voting.
     
    #49
  25. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    If she's trying to put a force field around a stronger opponent, I'd imagine she have to concentrate even harder to shrink it.

    If there's no evidence for her shields being able to withstand or contain a planet busting attack, then it's highly plausible that Goku could use his super saiyan energy to overpower her will, weaken her shields, and then break them with a kamehameha.
     
    #50
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