KLIQ69,
first off, thank you KLIQ69 for continuing an INTELLIGENT DEBATE here. unlike SCOFIELD who continues to INSULT and not back up the thread he helped to create. ok here we go:
-meltzer's ratings system has been in question and mass debate for years...although he is a highly recognized wrestling writer, his system needs major overhaul as many diehard fans can attest.
i mean, he gives cena / punk from MITB 2011 *****??!!! cena in a ***** match??!!! i mean, dude, it was a great match, but not a ***** match.
meltzer never gave HBK / undertaker from WM 25 *****, nor did he give HBK / triple H/ benoit from WM 20 *****, nor did he give Jericho / HBK from WM 19 *****, nor did he give rey mysterio / eddie guerrero from halloween havoc 97 *****----these were ALL classic, legendary matches....., i can go on and on with much greater matches than cena / punk from MITB 2011.
Meltzer's ratings system has been criticized for being too tough. However, I much prefer a system that only bestows the highest honor very rarely. It means that it's an honor to receive it. Look up Bret's comments about finally getting a 5 star ranking from Meltzer.
It's very hard for multiple people matches to get a 5 star rating... Too often spots break down to one on one. All of the matches you listed had flaws and while they all rank in the 4-4 1/2 star range, none deserved five stars. The best match listed was Taker/HBK at Mania, but they had several botched spots during the match (including Taker nearly breaking his own neck) that dropped the rating down. Also there are times early in the match and toward the middle of it where the crowd appeared to be sitting on their hands.
if you a wrestling fan who've seen a lot of matches, you KNOW these afformentioned matches i named above were much BETTER than cena / punk, as great as it was. now , you tell me, in your opinion, is meltzer's 'coveted' system of ***** matches truly accurate? me, I think not.
The problem is you have one standard by which to judge great matches with. If a technical clinic isn't part of the match, you have a problem with it. The Punk match had the crowd in it from bell to bell, the action was logical, even the commentary was pretty good. Those two told a story in the ring all the way until Cena prevented another screw-job and was beaten clean. Throw in Punk's emotion and the crowd reaction after the match, the attempted run-in by ADR, the quick kick, the escape into the crowd, the look on Vince's face, It was all done very well.
-as for nick dinsmore, tough shit for him, he got a shitty gimmick. never was a fan anyway. to me, what matters is what he did on the bigger stage of the WWE and he failed to impress.
So tough shit eh? What he did in the indies doesn't matter, eh? That means that anything anyone did before they got in to the WWE doesn't matter. So Flair's titles, DB's wrestler of the year awards, Foley's iconic matches in Japan, and Angle's Olympic gold medals shouldn't have any bearing on how their WWE careers were judged.
-my arguments first and foremost, are based on wrestling ability IN the ring, mic skills, charisma, and look. as far as these 4 characteristics, sting got warrior beat.
My argument remains that who's better as a wrestler is determined by who put more asses in seats. Long-term, Sting wins by sheer longevity. Comparing the years both guys were actively competing, Warrior wins without breaking a sweat
-vader. yea vader was pretty quick, he had power, and he could do a moonsault. 3 out of 4. what he did NOT have was the technical wrestling ability that lesnar possessed.
Again, I have no doubt that you're judging Vader on his WWE career. You've never watched his matches in Japan, never studied his work in early WCW, and because he didn't spend 10 minutes of every match boring the crowds with rest holds (and yes most of the moves done by "technical" wrestlers are nothing more than rest holds) then he wasn't great? Completely illogical thinking.
-mike awesome. awesome was great. he was powerful, he would splash off the top rope, and he was a major spotfest with powerbombs and slams. his match with taz/masato tanaka from ecw 99 (forgot the name of the ppv, but taz's last ECW match) was one of the greatest ECW matches of all time. again though, he was not as quick as lesnar, and, he did NOT have the technical wrestling ability of lesnar.
So again, you mention ECW and ignore his body of work from overseas. Awesome was quick if not quicker than Lesnar early in his career. He didn't just "splash" from the top rope. I've seen him do moonsaults, topes, cross bodies from 12 foot scaffolds. He was a FMW headliner for crying out loud.
lesnar trumps these guys because of his superior technical wrestling ability and the credibility to back that up (NCAA undefeated champion)
source wiki:
Lesnar won the 2000 NCAA wrestling championship as a heavyweight after placing second in 1999.
Prior to joining the Minnesota Golden Gophers, Lesnar wrestled at Bismarck State College in Bismarck, North Dakota.[2] Lesnar finished his amateur career as a two-time NJCAA All-American, 1998 NJCAA Heavyweight Champion, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 1065 overall in four years of college.
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So not only was he not good enough to get to D1 right out of college, he won only one NCAA D1 title in college. It's not like he was Cael or Dan for crying out loud. If you know folk style, you know Cael is the only man to ever go undefeated for 4 years, with over 100 wins, and win 4 NCAA D1 Titles. And Dan is well Dan.
-guys like LESNAR and KURT ANGLE came into the WWE with outside CREDIBILITY and ACCOMPLISHMENTS recognizable to wrestling. they are a dime a dozen. (an undefeated NCAA wrestling champion and an olympic gold medal are tremendous accomplishments, and of course, if i was vince, i would take full advantage of this. and PUSHED to the moon they were, right from the very beginning. (the boys in the locker room might not like it, but you cant have an olympic gold medalist JOB his way up the ranks---what kind of credibility would that give to the WWE? the fans would NOT buy it.)
-lesnar's and angle's MEGA PUSH from the beginning was JUSTIFIED and MADE SENSE. it was up to them to take the ball and run with it--and they
did.
Angle had a slow push to begin with, losing at his first Mania (twice). He was slowly turned into a credible champion and once he got there was willing to put guys over. Lesnar didn't do that. Angle also had the testicular fortitude to continue wrestling despite the travel schedule, despite injuries. Brock went home in less than two years. Even Goldberg had a longer career than Brock.
as for LESNAR'S drawing power in the UFC, he generated roughly about $50+ million in PPV buyrates for EACH UFC event he headlined. EACH. check this quick link out:
www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/12/31/2672...snar-retirement-alistair-overeem-pay-per-view
-MMA purists HATED lesnar, but guess what, people STILL paid to see him. lesnar is a TOP draw whether people like it or not.
http://www.mma-manifesto.com/ufc-ppv-data/ppv-main/2010-year-in-review-ufc-ppv-buyrates.html
1 7/11/2009 UFC 100: Lesnar vs. Mir 2 1,600,000
2 7/3/2010 UFC 116: Lesnar vs. Carwin 1,160,000
3 12/30/2006 UFC 66: Liddell vs. Ortiz 2 1,050,000
4 5/29/2010 UFC 114: Rampage vs. Evans 1,050,000
5 10/23/2010 UFC 121: Lesnar vs. Velasquez 1,050,000
6 11/15/2008 UFC 91: Couture vs. Lesnar 1,010,000
7 12/27/2008 UFC 92: The Ultimate 2008 1,000,000
8 1/31/2009 UFC 94: St-Pierre vs. Penn 2 920,000
9 8/8/2009 UFC 101: Declaration 850,000
10 3/27/2010 UFC 111: St-Pierre vs. Hardy 850,000
11 4/30/2011 UFC 129: St-Pierre vs. Shields 800,000
12 12/11/2010 UFC 124: St-Pierre vs. Koscheck 2 800,000
13 30/12/2011 UFC 141: Lesnar vs. Overeem 800,000
14 7/8/2006 UFC 61: Bitter Rivals 775,000
15 2/5/2011 UFC 126: Silva vs. Belfort 750,000
16 12/29/2007 UFC 79: Nemesis 700,000
17 5/26/2007 UFC 71: Liddell vs. Jackson 675,000
18 4/18/2009 UFC 97: Redemption 650,000
19 5/23/2009 UFC 98: Evans vs. Machida 635,000
20 8/9/2008 UFC 87: Seek And Destroy 625,000
As you can see, the only card Lesnar was on that did considerably higher than any other show was UFC 100, which was the most packed card they ever had. It featured besides the main event, Henderson/Bisbing, GSP/Alves, and Bonnar/Coleman.
As you can see from the list, GSP also has a considerable drawing power so attribute the buyrate from 100 to only Lesnar is illogical. GSP's fight from 2011 drew the same buyrate as Lesnar's fight from 2011.
-ryder's youtube show.....what credibility does that have? he can film himself and do multiple takes and edits. great accomplishment. david arquette made a couple of movies. people want to see him right? let's make him the world champion....OOOPS...one the biggest mistake WCW ever made.
It was his way of building a fan base and get noticed. Since doing the show and being put on television, the results have been rather good. Again, he's been selling merchandise and getting a reaction from the crowd. As a mid-carder that's the best that can be hoped for.
what does that have to do with his actual IN RING WRESTLING TALENTS? ryder's IN RING skill and talking ability remained the SAME undercard level it was before. it seems everyone just jumped on the ryder bandwagon after his youtube show took off. its ridiculous. where were his fans before? not really there to begin with.
he's the same OVER-RATED dude, with a 'hit' youtube show.
sure, maybe he sells more merchandise because of this little bandwagon he got going on, but my argument is for everyone to OPEN THEIR EYES and see that he is the same NO WRESTLING ABILITY, NO MIC SKILL, NO ACTING CHOPS, goofy guy that he was before.
And again you are missing the entire point. HE IS MAKING THE COMPANY MONEY. End all be all in wrestling is doing that one thing. Not being able to put on clinics, not cutting great promos, nothing else matters in terms of card position except who is going to bring in the green stuff.
-as far as JBL, never was a fan of the guy either. like i said he never generated good heat like miz heat or ziggler heat, he generated the michael cole 'shut the fuck up, go away, you're annoying' heat. to me, he NEVER produced a ***** match. hell, he never produced an ENJOYABLE match to begin with. he was UNWATCHABLE in the ring. he WAS better on the mic though than zack ryder, i'll give him that, but for the most part, unwatchable.
i know this is heavily opinion-based, but for me, being a technical wrestling fan, JBL was not one of the best heels. (austin, hart, hbk, edge, jericho, the rock----these guys were GREAT heels. guys who can TALK and WRESTLE. i wouldn't put JBL on that list. sure, he could run his mouth like no tomorrow, but he could NOT wrestle.
If they are opinions then word them as such. I watched several enjoyable JBL matches. His matches with Eddie were fun, his matches with Taker were good for big men, his matches with Rey (save his final mania match) were decent, and his match with HBK was very enjoyable.
You claim he didn't have real heat, however despite having several top level heels on the roster during WM21, Vince chose JBL to be the one to put over his new "face of the company". Not HHH, not Angle, not Jericho, he chose JBL because of the amount of heat JBL had at that point.
The reason I say one of the top heels of the last decade is because only one other guy headlining for Vince was a true heel. That was Jericho. The rest are cool heels or tweeners. The garner cheers along with boos, sell merchandise, do public appearances, etc. They are not hated, they are not loathed. JBL was.
And you ignored yet another point. You talk about guys who "love" the business, how can you not respect a guy who is a self-made millionaire in the financial sector who keeps wrestling because of his love of the industry. What other guy has shown that kind of dedication?
As for his wrestling abilities, I seem to recall himself aswell as JR in interviews admitting Austin was never the best in the ring. Especially when he entered the persona known as "Stone Cold Steve Austin". Yes when he was the Ringmaster or Stunning Steve his wrestling ability looked A-Ok. Same goes for the man himself known as Mr. 5 moves...John Cena, if you had watched the Prototype John Cena or the ruthless agression John Cena you would see he did have some in-ring talent only to have his moveset limited down to the John Cena we know today.
) and that was get notice by himself. Tell me if getting noticed is not somethng Vince looks into since he gets a huge a** pop?
