KLIQ69,
my response to your arguments:
bret was very good delivering promos. he admitted he wasnt that good when he was tagging with anvil, but you can see him improve as he transitioned to a singles wrestler.
when he was in his prime from 95 on, he was great on the mic. in 97, during his heel run is when he started to become awesome on the mic. he and austin had very enjoyable verbal exchanges throughout their fued in 96-97. his promo with shamrock and austin in march 1997 was a great example of his skill. hart and michaels had memorable exchanges as well in 96 and 97.
Bret has never been known as good on the mic, let alone great. He was so nervous on the mic that he wore glasses to hide it. He often stuttered and stammered while delivering. Most of Bret's best interview segments were pretaped and had multiple takes.
malenko, i'll admit, not that great on the mic, but his IN RING skill vastly made up for it. and plus his gimmick of being the ICEMAN, he was a man of action, not of words.
When you list wrestlers under a headline, they should fit the labels you described. Also Malenko was/is seriously over rated in the ring. He was above average at best. His lack of charisma showed not only when he was on the mic but also in the ring. Even someone like Benoit who was known as a horrible interview had character when the bell rang.
also, BRET never wanted to leave the WWF to begin with. the WCW offered more money, but he wanted to stay loyal to vince. (watch wrestling with shadows)
You cite a film known to be biased to make a point? Bret was offered a contract by WCW during his break in 1996. Instead of jumping ship at that point, instead he signed a 1 million dollar a year, 20 year contract with Vince. That's $20 million dollars for folks following along at home. That's not counting merchandise, residual income based off of vhs/dvd sales, nor ppv bonuses. Based on his spot, fan base, etc, an addition $5 million is not an unreasonable figure to estimate that at. Sure it isn't at Hogan's $1 million a match pay in WCW, but is still a considerable amount of money for a guy who was never a proven #1 draw.
as far as being a good wrestler....LOL...you said this about zack ryder, "If by wrestle you mean perform in a ring in front of sold out crowds, I'd say obviously he can "wrestle", then your definition of 'wrestle' needs to be re-examined because basically, you're telling me that mcguillicuty, mason ryan, eugene, hornswoggle, and other NO talents can 'WRESTLE' which is a big fat joke.
Nick Dinsmore could wrestle thank you very much... I'm guessing you're one of the guys who rail on Hogan or Warrior because they couldn't "wrestle". Despite the fact the drew larger crowds than 99% of the guys who could put on a clinic.
to be able to 'WRESTLE' is to engage the audience, tell a story, realistically deliver and take shots / holds, technically wear down the opponent believably throughout the match-----this is something ryder has NEVER done, nor does he have the potential to do.
Engage the audience... Check (he gets a reaction, you can't dispute that)... Tell a story... check(everything on tv is a story, even the news. Some are just better than others)... Realistically deliver/take shots... check(Last night's match as an example. He took/gave realistic shots during it. He was dominated by a guy twice his size, the bits of offense he got in were quick shots, doing little damage, he was tossed around, thrown around, etc. Most of the damage was centered around the back, so him kicking out was possible)... technically wear down an opponent... Who exactly does this anymore? I haven't seen anyone do this for several years. Even the so-called "technical master" Kurt Angle doesn't do this. Angle spends entire matches working over an arm/shoulder/neck only to lock on the ankle lock. DB in the cage match during the live smackdown worked over Henry's legs all match and then tried the Lebell Lock. These are two of the "best in the world" and not even they do it.
for flair, steamboat, hart, guerrero, these guys are WRESTLERS. they LIVE, EAT, SLEEP wrestling. some of those guys are 2nd gen. its what they love to do. its my opinion, but based on their legacy, the money is NOWHERE near as important as the legacy in WRESTLING that they would leave behind.
Name one guy today that does what they do for any reason other than money: IE wrestling for free. No one. Flair is still wrestling and in some fans' minds has tarnished his legacy solely to earn more money.
yes, LESNAR did NOT necessarily 'pay his dues', but he came into the WWF with tons of credibility already. he was an UNDEFEATED NCAA WRESTLING CHAMPION. and just like kurt angle, the OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST, he was pushed straight to the top----and understandably so. he had ALL the tools.
Except Lesnar completely goes against your last statement. Here's a guy who had all the tools, was handed everything, but didn't have the testicular fortitude to keep going. He couldn't handle the road and went home. Wasting all the time/money they put into him.
my gripe with ryder is the fact that he is getting all this valuable TV time and exposure and even held the prestigious UNITED STATES CHAMPIONSHIP all just because he made a 'popular' youtube show.
1st. You call the US title prestigious... The same title held by Orlando Jordan, Tajiri, Bobby Lashley, Rhyno, Kanyon, General Rection, David Flair, and Steve McMichael. 2nd. Valuable TV time? Who else would you rather see? More importantly who else in a similar roster spot garners his type of reaction/merchandise sales from the average fans perspective?
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NOT because of his IN RING TALENT, NOT because of his MIC SKILLS, you know, the stuff that really matter in wrestling, but because of a stupid youtube show.
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You missed the ONLY thing that matters in wrestling... Who makes the promoter the most money... That's it. End all be all. If it wasn't, Dynamite Kid would have been headlining Mania in the 80s while Hogan was doing nothing but making "b" movies.
he NEVER would have received this before the show. and thats a FACT. he was on the verge of being released.
And unlike the other talent that are cut every year, he went and did something on his own to try and change his fortune. It could have bombed, could have still been released, heck Vince could have gotten real pissed and sued him for putting himself on video without the expressed written consent of the WWE. Like I said, imagine if a guy like Morrison had half the drive that Ryder has or a guy like Bourne. Bourne doesn't even have enough drive to quit smoking some fake pot let alone doing something on his own time to enhance his career.
he may have worked his way through developmental, and 'paid his dues,' but he still is the same NO WRESTLING TALENT, NO MIC SKILLS, zack ryder before his show blew up.
No he's not the same guy... That is where you are wrong... Since he's been doing the show, he's now over with the crowd and making the company money. At the end of the day, that is all that matters.
you ryder fans, OPEN YOUR EYES and see this.
don't fall for the WWE marketing machine.
You don't see how illogical that sounds? The machine is what decides who gets what spot. Cena was a bland guy with some talent, he showed something so they threw the machine behind him and he became the face of the company. Jericho was as talented in WCW as he was in WWF, but they threw the machine behind him and he was a star.
Take JBL as the perfect example... They needed a top heel, he did what was necessary to fit the image and they put the machine behind him. He ended up being on of the best heels of the past decade because of it.
If other "more talented" guys want Ryder's spot, how about they step up and figure out how to make the company some money, then they might get it.
