NXT NWS Finals - The Greatest Athlete in History

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

I believe one of the first arguments I read in this thread is that Babe Ruth isn't even regarded as the ultimate best of all time in his own sport, due to other baseball players. However, that is something that could most likely be said about Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali as well.

This stands true for Mohammad Ali, but not at all for Michael Jordan. When talking about all time greats in the sport of basketball one name stands above the rest, and that Name is Michael Jordan.

While Lebron is a popular name at the moment he has yet to even win one single NBA Championship, Jordan had six, and while that's merely one statistic, it's a statistic that Lebron is light years away from.

As for Kobe, while he does have a few NBA championships under his belt, he doesn't have near as many career achievements as Jordan throughout his career. Plus Jordan was a two sport athlete, and as much as people want to shit on him for his baseball career it takes a lot of athletic ability to pull off playing two sports at the professional level.

Ali is considered one of the greatest, but so is Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson to some. Ali therefore is only among a few people that could be considered the greatest. Where as to argue Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Lebron James are also considered some of the greatest in his part of the business.

As I just explained, Lebron and Kobe aren't on the same level as Jordan, not on the same statistical level, neither have the same worldwide success, and neither of them played a second sport on the professional level.

Your point for Ali is accepted though, as I've herd the argument that Tyson was a better overall heavyweight in his prime than Ali.

I've never heard Rocky Marciano proclaimed be as good as Ali, but Marciano is obviously of legendary status, and the best pound for pound fighter off all time, Sugar Ray Robinson defeated Marciano in his prime further proving that Ali can't really be considered the best boxer of all time, which makes it quite difficult to consider him the greatest athlete of all time.

Therefore, we're back to the starting point. While I would like to excuse if I fuck up a little bit in all of this, we all know I'm very dry on American sport knowledge, Ali being pretty much the only guy I know properly in this thread, and I never considered him the better athlete, I always considered Tyson the king of boxing, but that's just me.

And Tyson makes a valid case for being a better heavyweight fighter than Ali, and is one of those dream match-ups where you could argue victory for both of them.

While I'm not gonna go around and trying to compare all the lots of baseball accomplishments that X has to Y, Babe Ruth's resume more than exceeds itself when it comes to amount of home-runs, average hits and generally his accomplishments in the championship department. Something that could be said by others, but hardly something that could be said with the same amount of class that Babe Ruth accomplished it in.

Ruth has the baseball resume, no doubt; but it's nothing that Jordan doesn't have on his resume.

While I agree it's tough to argue stats from different sports I can agree than Jordan and Ruth both have impressive resumes. Though Jordan does have that second sport under his belt, something that eludes both Ruth and Ali.

Babe was quite a baseball player during his prime, setting the bar for many young baseball players that exceeds him, and are eventually going to exceed him in the business. Something that couldn't necessarily be said in the same manner of Michael Jordan and Muhammed Ali, because while they definitely placed a bar. They still had to face a bar that was already placed before them, by guys like Rocky Marciano for Ali, and someone like George Mikan, Bob Cousy and Bill Russell just to name a few for Michael Jordan.

Well the two names you brought, Kobe and Lebron where both heavily inspired by Michael Jordan.

There where plenty of great baseball players before Ruth, Ty Cobb for example. Ruth set homerun marks before people cared about the home run, and he certainly made it famous; but his homerun marks where broken by two different African American players, and its African American players that Ruth never played against.

And while all Ali, Jordan and Ruth are all considered to be all-time greats in their part of sports, and the first one you think of when you think of their respected sports, that doesn't make for them to be necessarily the best answer all of them. Babe Ruth pretty much would be the best answer, because while someone might have managed to top his amount of hits (or average, again, remember I'm awful with American sports, and might get some facts wrong, I hope you can respect that).

Actually, out of the three names, Jordan is first and foremost considered to be the greatest Basketball player of all time. While I've heard Ruth to be considered the greatest ballplayer of all time, I've also heard arguments made for Hank Aaron, and Willie Mays, who where far better defensive players and better all around player than the Babe.

Overall, of these guys that have been chosen to be represented as the greatest athlete of all time by you guys (Which I have to say, you're doing a fine job at) I just can't choose anybody but Babe Ruth. Because whenever I've heard of professional baseball, I've always.. always heard the name of Babe Ruth, I have only half the time heard of the name of Ali, or Michael Jordan when someone talks about boxing and basketball.

While I can't argue with you about which name your most familiar with, I will say that the current NBA names you hear: Kobe, Lebron, and whoever else you've heard of where inspired by Jordan's greatness and both have said this on multiple occasions.

I do agree with your stance on Ali, as he was more famous for stepping onto the political soapbox, which has nothing to do with being a great athlete, and Ali lost almost 3 years of his prime because of the stances he took, which actually takes away from him being the greatest athlete of all time.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Can we please stop talking about Michael Jordan as a 2-sport athlete / star? He was BARELY a two-sport athlete considering the fact that if his name were anything OTHER than "Michael Jordan," he wouldn't have made the Major Leagues. MLB saw dollar signs. Name recognition. "Come see Michael Jordan FAIL at something."

If you want to bring up two-sport athletes and stars, then bring up Bo Jackson and Jim Thorpe. Bring up Deion Sanders and Jim Brown. Trying to pad Michael Jordan as a "two-sport star" is just a reach. Greatest basketball player in history? Perhaps - certainly top 3, probably #1. But at baseball he was less than pedestrian. In the words of Mike Golic, "Just stop it!"

 

[Big Sexy]

But the only things he excelled at in baseball was the stats that had to do with speed. But even though he had great speed and stole a few bases he still got caught stealing 18 times. We keep putting Jordan's baseball endevour on a high pedastal when it was in fact shit. Jordan's baseball career showed he was very athletic, but not a great two sport athlete. There's a difference.

I'm not trying to say that Jordan was good at baseball. In fact if you hold him to the standards of any other AA player he played like shit for the most part. What I'm saying is that Jordan after not having played the game for 19 years was able to go right into it and at least look competent. Who knows what Jordan could have done if he continued to play baseball as a youth along with basketball. By the end of his one minor league season he was already showing tremendous improvement.

But the difference between being a great defender and scorer on the court and being a great pitcher and hitter is huge. We both know the difference between hitting and pitching and how hard it would be to be great in both in the MLB, Ruth did it though. Jordan's d was great, but it's easier to be a great defender and scorer in basketball.

Nowadays you'd be correct but back then it was much more commonplace for players to excel at both pitching and hitting. Obviously no one did the combination as well as Ruth did but don't act like Babe did something that was never done before. Jordan wasn't just a great scorer and defender, he was the best scorer and as far as guards go he was arguably the best defender.

So Jordan has one medal then against real competition and the 88 team was only the third US team to not win gold since the sport was made Olympic.

In the 80's international competition started to get much better which is the reason why the US decided to go from college kids to NBA players. Looking at the 84 teams roster it wasn't exactly spectacular. You had MJ, Ewing, Chris Mullins, and Sam Perkins as the only guys who really did much in the NBA. The 88 team was arguably the deeper roster of the two.

No they started in the twenties but kept going under, and by hit their stride I mean that the players became better and better, up to the level of the MLB players in some cases. Who's really to say that if blacks had been allowed to play in the majors that Ruth's stats wouldn't have been better? We will never know.

I already stated that in the early 1900's, before Ruth even entered MLB, there were cases of all black teams beating major league teams in exhibition games. The talent was always there, the leagues could just never stay afloat financially. 1920 marked the beginning of the Golden Age of the Negro Leagues, but the talent was always there.

 

[Ferbian]

This stands true for Mohammad Ali, but not at all for Michael Jordan. When talking about all time greats in the sport of basketball one name stands above the rest, and that Name is Michael Jordan.

Certainly he's named among the greats. However, there's still other greats there to mention, so obviously it would have to apply to Michael Jordan as well, and while you mention it's talent that was influenced by Michael himself, it doesn't make it any less of a difference that they might be better. I'm sure Ali had a bit of influence from Marciano as well, and Babe had a bit of influence from someone else as well.

While Lebron is a popular name at the moment he has yet to even win one single NBA Championship, Jordan had six, and while that's merely one statistic, it's a statistic that Lebron is light years away from.

Certainly championships isn't all about what makes a great star and a great athlete. Especially in a team sport. Had it been something like Tennis, or amateur wrestling, then championships matter. Michael Jordan played a team sport, and while I doubt that was the case for him, or for Lebron James, there's still a chance their teammates could drag them down.

As for Kobe, while he does have a few NBA championships under his belt, he doesn't have near as many career achievements as Jordan throughout his career. Plus Jordan was a two sport athlete, and as much as people want to shit on him for his baseball career it takes a lot of athletic ability to pull off playing two sports at the professional level.

Certainly I agree that there's a bit to applaud for Michael to actually go out of what would be considered his comfort zone, being basketball. Into another career, where he was pretty much a newbie of sorts compared to his basketball career. However, would that automatically give him the nod to become the greatest of all time? Especially if his two athletic sports achievements and athleticism didn't hold ground compared to Babe Ruth or Muhammad Ali's achievements?

Being in shape and all that, doesn't necessarily make someone a great athlete. Because we could easily disregard a large base of many sports athletes for not being completely athletic compared to some counterparts if we count the greatest athlete by shape and physique, which would hardly be fair. Especially considering (Going into a bit of comfort zone comparison, I'm better at using wrestling comparisons) say Triple H is obviously physique wise one of the better athletes in professional wrestling, but he is hardly the greatest wrestler of all time for example.

As I just explained, Lebron and Kobe aren't on the same level as Jordan, not on the same statistical level, neither have the same worldwide success, and neither of them played a second sport on the professional level.

Playing additional sports is hardly something to make someone a bigger and better athlete.

Michael Jordan to some might be considered the greatest and have had a lot of world wide success. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that Lebron's change to the Miami Heat didn't garner so much worldwide attention to the point where because he's already a success, he would be considered somewhat of a worldwide success, just to use one example.

Your point for Ali is accepted though, as I've herd the argument that Tyson was a better overall heavyweight in his prime than Ali.

Which of course could be argued, but it also limits Ali to qualify as the greatest, because there's contenders all around him.

I've never heard Rocky Marciano proclaimed be as good as Ali, but Marciano is obviously of legendary status, and the best pound for pound fighter off all time, Sugar Ray Robinson defeated Marciano in his prime further proving that Ali can't really be considered the best boxer of all time, which makes it quite difficult to consider him the greatest athlete of all time.

Ali is regarded as a big thing because he brought boxing to new heights. Marciano just dominated his sport, and was regarded as one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time as well. His legacy warrants him more than enough to be regarded as one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Who knows, maybe even the greatest boxer.

And Tyson makes a valid case for being a better heavyweight fighter than Ali, and is one of those dream match-ups where you could argue victory for both of them.

I would've loved to see Ali vs Tyson that's for sure. Such a shame they're from different eras.

Ruth has the baseball resume, no doubt; but it's nothing that Jordan doesn't have on his resume.

Of course not. I never said that. However Babe Ruth was the first to set such standards, he was the first to really dominate and put a notice on his sport. Michael Jordan wasn't, that takes away from some of the significance to basketball that Michael has, compared to the significance of baseball that Babe had.

While I agree it's tough to argue stats from different sports I can agree than Jordan and Ruth both have impressive resumes. Though Jordan does have that second sport under his belt, something that eludes both Ruth and Ali.

However, Michael Jordan barely have anything to back up himself as having had a successful career within baseball. So why should we bother to look at it when comparing them to being great athletes? Especially considering Michael were hardly a worthwhile name in a baseball career, compared to the greats of baseball. Where as he was indeed a great of basketball.

Well the two names you brought, Kobe and Lebron where both heavily inspired by Michael Jordan.

Certainly, however like I mentioned earlier. Everybody had some kind of influence. Doesn't bring them to the point where they lack the ability to surpass, or for that sake to be considered greater than their inspiration.

There where plenty of great baseball players before Ruth, Ty Cobb for example. Ruth set homerun marks before people cared about the home run, and he certainly made it famous; but his homerun marks where broken by two different African American players, and its African American players that Ruth never played against.

Yes I knew there were some statistics that Babe had been surpassed in. However, these African American players doesn't necessarily make themselves a better player just because they surpassed one record. Records are there to be broken, but the talent in itself remains. And there's not necessarily anywhere that these 2 African Americans are regarded as the greatest of all time, now are there?

Besides, Michael Jordan never played against Kobe or Lebron if I remember right. As well as Ali never faced his contenders for the greatest of all time, Marciano and Tyson.

Actually, out of the three names, Jordan is first and foremost considered to be the greatest Basketball player of all time. While I've heard Ruth to be considered the greatest ballplayer of all time, I've also heard arguments made for Hank Aaron, and Willie Mays, who where far better defensive players and better all around player than the Babe.

There can always be made a case for pretty much any talent when it comes to who is considered better than the other. However, these cases doesn't necessarily make themselves true. It's all about convincing your opposite debater I guess.

And while I know that practically hurts my own argument for Babe, it still supports the fact that while some could make a solid case for Hank and Willie, Babe would still without a doubt be considered one of the greatest, just like Michael and Ali have sportsmen that preceded and exceeded them in years of activity and are also considered better.

While I can't argue with you about which name your most familiar with, I will say that the current NBA names you hear: Kobe, Lebron, and whoever else you've heard of where inspired by Jordan's greatness and both have said this on multiple occasions.

And like I've said, influenced by one, doesn't mean they can't surpass the person in terms of abilities in their sport, and therefore be considered better. Certainly that could be said for any athlete, before Babe's time, someone else was considered the greatest of all time, and before Michael, someone was considered the greatest of all time etc.

Some, just doesn't get surpassed, others do.

I do agree with your stance on Ali, as he was more famous for stepping onto the political soapbox, which has nothing to do with being a great athlete, and Ali lost almost 3 years of his prime because of the stances he took, which actually takes away from him being the greatest athlete of all time.

Not necessarily. While I shouldn't make a case for Ali being the greatest, I couldn't stand by and let you say that his career was hurt because of his lack of presence in 3 years time due to political stand points, and taking a leave from the business. That is the exact thing that I argued a little while back when Mikkel Kessler withdrew from the Super Six, and some boxing sports journalist said that the injury has the potential to hurt Mikkel Kessler's chances of going down in Danish sports history.

You should read it, I believe it's the latest thread I created in the sports section.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Can we please stop talking about Michael Jordan as a 2-sport athlete / star? He was BARELY a two-sport athlete considering the fact that if his name were anything OTHER than "Michael Jordan," he wouldn't have made the Major Leagues. MLB saw dollar signs. Name recognition. "Come see Michael Jordan FAIL at something."

It doesn't change the fact that he still competed in baseball at a professional level.

Jordan is also the only Professional Basketball player to attempt playing Baseball at the pro level. No other Basketball player has ever done that, EVER.

Where as Football/Baseball on the pro level is more common with Prime Time, Bo Jackson and others.

Barely being a 2-sport Athlete is still a 2-sport athlete even if it is just Barely. Just because he barely did it doesn't mean he didn't do it, and if my competition wants to bring up things like "having a sharp tongue" and pass that off as making you a better athlete than I sure as hell am going to drive the fact that Jordan played Baseball and Basketball on a pro level, name value or not.

If you want to bring up two-sport athletes and stars, then bring up Bo Jackson and Jim Thorpe. Bring up Deion Sanders and Jim Brown. Trying to pad Michael Jordan as a "two-sport star" is just a reach. Greatest basketball player in history? Perhaps - certainly top 3, probably #1. But at baseball he was less than pedestrian. In the words of Mike Golic, "Just stop it!"

Thorpe
Bo Knows
Prime Time

They where all on my list of greatest athletes, but none of them can claim to being the best in there sport, and if you want to argue Jordan not being the best basketball player feel free to make your case, just like I have done regarding Ruth and Ali.

Playing multiple sports certainly makes you a great athlete, but being the very best at your sport comes first in my opinion.

Is Jordan's baseball career really the most redundant point, I really don't think so, especially considering that the babe being a "pitcher" is amongst the arguments being made as well as Ali's political and religious endeavors.

So while you may think that Jordan's Baseball career is worthless it's the only example of a famous Basketball player going into the game of baseball, and his AA numbers are not that bad, he hit for power and had great speed, his average wasn't great but he hadn't played in 19 years, and as much as you'd like to discredit his baseball career it's more than Ali and Ruth had combined outside their respective sports.

 

[Big Sexy]

Can we please stop talking about Michael Jordan as a 2-sport athlete / star? He was BARELY a two-sport athlete considering the fact that if his name were anything OTHER than "Michael Jordan," he wouldn't have made the Major Leagues. MLB saw dollar signs. Name recognition. "Come see Michael Jordan FAIL at something."

I don't think anyone is arguing and saying MJ was truly a two sport athlete. The only reason I brought up his stint in baseball was because it showed how great of an athlete he really was to pick up a game after not playing it for 19 years and actually look competent. I guarantee any other athlete trying to do that after being away from the game for 19 years would have looked much worse then Jordan did. MJ was able to look competent and showed great improvement near the end of his one season. This is a debate on the greatest athlete ever. MJ showed he could do something athletically that Ruth and Ali (especially Ruth) would have failed at. It's not one of the main points that should be made for Jordan but it is certainly a relevant point to the topic at hand.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

It doesn't change the fact that he still competed in baseball at a professional level.

Jordan is also the only Professional Basketball player to attempt playing Baseball at the pro level. No other Basketball player has ever done that, EVER.

Mark Hendrickson and Steve Hamilton beg to differ. They played professional basketball and went on to play professional baseball as well. They might have not been well known as Jordan in their respective era but Jordan wasn't the first to actually do it. There were many more before him.

 

[a0161613]

Frankly I hate that this has become a sentence by sentence breakdown of each others posts. So I am going to start over again. Firstly I have to address some points that have been made.

SSC, Space Jam was not a vehicle for Michael Jordan and attributing as much of its success to him like you are is wrong. The fact is that it's one of the better Looney Tunes films, one of the first to mix animation and live action. (I know Who Framed Roger Rabbit was the first big one and was superior.). With all of those factors, stop using that point. Any sport would have worked but Basketball was the right sport and with MJ, his career was at a lull, having stooped to play baseball.

As IC put, the two sport factor is null and void. As a two sport athlete he fails to compare to most.

His place as a legend is just but the best of all time? I know only a couple who could compete in the same breath, namely Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

Anyone mentioned on this page more than four times could have a case made for them. As a distant observer I would credit a lot of the Bulls successes to the team around Jordan.

The Olympics have been dominated by more athletes in more sports. So MJ is not special in this respect. The fact is the US have clearly dominated this competition. Like Canada in ice hockey and other Americans in track sports, they are expected to medal and in most cases, gold is all they go for.

Boxing at the Olympics is an important step to becoming professional. In Basketball, it doesn't seem so much.

This point about Basketball being the worlds #2 recognisable sport? What's so difficult about recognising a ball being put into a hoop? Why this relevant? Is it even close to being the #2 participation sport? I doubt this.

The fact is the NBA is all that matters in Basketball. The big money is there. The European leagues suck and are formed by money. I'm not saying the players who play there are motivated by cash but there is a mercenary aspect like there is in football.

His achievements are remarkable. I accept this. Hell, achievements and records are the only reasons Babe Ruth is being considered here.

But Muhammed Ali did just as much. Hell, in terms of a worldwide impact, his athletic displays in these legendary contests, captured the imagination of millions.

The reason why his vocal skills outside of the ring apply is because he brought more attention to his fights than anyone in history to that point. Just like wrestlers use promos to build up to and following big matches, Ali put himself out there to be heard. He was capable of getting it done in the ring but he wanted people to see him do it. No boxer, no athlete had done that before.

You both have pointed out that Ali was not the first successful black boxer. I would never doubt the significance of Joe Louis or Sugar Ray Robinson and it was during research that I truly discovered how good they were. They laid the path for him to be popular in the US without race being a factor.

Keywords, in the US. Ali took it around the world and put on the most significant boxing matches of the 20th century.

Baseball barely has a fan base outside the US (and Japan, I know). The fact that Ruth is a known name is a credit to the legend that he brought forward. But as an athlete, outside of remarkable power and (what must have been great hand eye coordination) what skills does he truly possess? Aerobic stamina? Agility? Speed?

In his prime Ali had these to spare. Of course MJ does too but what I give to Ali over MJ is the physical punishment that he took. In the end it has cost an incredible chunk of his life and his quality of life too.

His competition since his retirement has been minimal. Tyson had a good few years, but no more successful than Lennox Lewis or Holyfield at that level.

Ali dominates them. Even after losing nearly four years of his career, no one in recent years tops what he did for the sport or what he was able to do in the ring.

He took everything the golden era of heavyweight boxing could throw at him. Frazier and Foreman, with the exception of one match, he took them both on in their primes, he absorbed every punch and outlasted them by constant punishment.

If he was great before his "break", then he was incredible afterwards for his simple ability to outlast opponents. In a sport more physically punishing than any other (until MMA) that is some display of athletic ability.

Some other incorrect factoids I have noticed. Not picking on BC and SSC here, but I have to point them out because basic research would show them up and I would expect to be called up on similar errors.

• Ali’s last fight was Leon Spinks.
• Films on Muhammed Ali started BEFORE he retired.
• The Greatest, (1977) starring himself and an adapt of his autobiography.
• When We Were Kings (1996), based on Rumble in the Jungle, won an Oscar.
• Ali (2001): Oscar-nominated for lead and supporting actor, applauded for fight scenes, Will Smith only accepted role on Ali’s request.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Mark Hendrickson and Steve Hamilton beg to differ. They played professional basketball and went on to play professional baseball as well. They might have not been well known as Jordan in their respective era but Jordan wasn't the first to actually do it. There were many more before him.

You've got me here.

Though neither of them would even crack a list of the 100 greatest athletes of all time.

Jordan is still the only "high profile" athlete to make the jump from basketball to baseball, and neither of them had close to as much success in their two sports as Jordan had in his one; but credit where credit is due and Jordan as you pointed out was not the first to do it.

Something I would like to bring up is if we where to take Jordan, Ali and Ruth and put them in your standard track and field competition. Which is a common method to judge someones athletic ability, there's no doubt that Ruth would quickly be eliminated from the competition. Jordan and Ali would be a bit closer, but with Jordan's well documented jumping abilities I'd give him the edge. Basketball and Boxing both take supreme cardio abilities, but Jordan's height and stride length would give him an advantage over Ali in most Track and Field competitions.

I'm simply bringing up the Track & Field competition to take all three out athletes out of their element and judge them based on athletic abilities and not statistics alone, and by doing this it shows that Ruth left a lot to be desired as far as "athletes" go, and while I don't doubt Ali would put up a fight (no pun intended) Jordan would take the cake based on the athletic abilities that he flaunted over his years as a pro Basketball player.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

So Ruth is yet again discredited here for not being a freak of a genetic specimen, yet this pudgy little baseball player dominated America's game like no one ever did before him and no one has ever done since. It's not about what the guys did off the field or how they can jump higher, it's about how they did in their sport, and no one did it better than Babe Ruth. You can't dispute this. Jordan can claim to be the best basketball player, but there's more of a competition for that with Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Dr. J, and Kareem. He's got the rings, but Ruth has more with different teams playing completely different positions. Ali wasn't the greatest, he just said he was. Chael Sonnen says he's the best middleweight in MMA, does that make it true?

 

[Big Sexy]

Jordan can claim to be the best basketball player, but there's more of a competition for that with Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Dr. J, and Kareem. He's got the rings, but Ruth has more with different teams playing completely different positions. Ali wasn't the greatest, he just said he was. Chael Sonnen says he's the best middleweight in MMA, does that make it true?

Jordan being the greatest basketball player of all time is more widely considered true then Ruth being the greatest baseball player of all time. In terms of statistics, championships, competitiveness, and just overall ability, MJ is unquestionably the greatest basketball player of all time. Larry Bird once described him as "God disguised as Michael Jordan." I'll take the man compared to God as the greatest athlete of all time.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Jordan being the greatest basketball player of all time is more widely considered true then Ruth being the greatest baseball player of all time. In terms of statistics, championships, competitiveness, and just overall ability, MJ is unquestionably the greatest basketball player of all time. Larry Bird once described him as "God disguised as Michael Jordan." I'll take the man compared to God as the greatest athlete of all time.

I disagree, there are guys with more rings, guys that scored more, and guys that played better defense. All things Jordan is known for. Ruth on the other hand doesn't have that type of competition. He's either first or second in every major hitting statistic and tenth in batting average. Then we look at his pitching and he's top ten in alot of those catagories too. Ruth is the greatest baseball player, it's a fact. I'll take all the qoutes made about Ruth through the years over one from Bird calling him a God.

 

[Big Sexy]

I disagree, there are guys with more rings, guys that scored more, and guys that played better defense. All things Jordan is known for. Ruth on the other hand doesn't have that type of competition. He's either first or second in every major hitting statistic and tenth in batting average. Then we look at his pitching and he's top ten in alot of those catagories too. Ruth is the greatest baseball player, it's a fact. I'll take all the qoutes made about Ruth through the years over one from Bird calling him a God.

With the exception of Robert Horry, every single player with more rings then Jordan was part of the Celtics 60's dynasty. That was also back when the NBA had about 10-14 teams. Jordan won his 6 rings with 27-29 teams. Robert Horry just happened to move from Hakeem, to Shaq and Kobe, to Tim Duncan. Btw there are 6 guys with more WS rings then Ruth. They were all part of Yankees dynasty's but that's no different then what Jordan is facing with the Celtics dynasty competition.

Jordan is also 3rd in NBA history in total points, 1st in points per game, and second all time in steals. Just like Ruth, Jordan is at or near the top in all the categories he should be. Jordan is without a doubt the greatest scorer in NBA history and he is easily one of the best defenders as well. A great argument can be made to say he was the greatest defensive player for a guard ever. Ruth has just as much competition as Jordan in the stat categories where competition is relevant.

 

[gd]

Yikes. What a mess in here. A few points.

you mean buying a crappy team, doing some crappy movies, failing at baseball and than going back to basketball because he had no other option?

Jordan has basically taken his career to new levels of failing.

I know this has already been brought up by others as ludicrous, but this deserves to be brought up again, and again, and again. It's just so silly. I know you're arguing for another athelte and all and probably don't know much about Michael Jordan, but that doesn't mean it's "good" debating to make off the wall, uneducated, and completely ridiculous statements. It just makes you look incredibly silly.

MJ is definety not the best executive, but the Bobcats have made a significant improvement in recent years. Regardless, what he's done in the front office really has little to no bearing on him being a great athlete. Same with making a "crappy" movie that actually completely proves how iconic and popular he was. It doesn't really matter.

As IC said, his baseball career was pretty pathetic, but considering all he did on the basketball court, I don't really hold that against him.

So why mention it?, Jordan may come from a different field but atleast Ali could capture people's attention, Jordan was bland as an entertainer the only time people would get excited was when he actually scored, which nowdays isn't even a reality anymore.

MJ was one of the most exciting atheltes in any sport ever. I'm pretty sure I've never, ever heard him described as bland. Have no idea how you could come up with that.

Also, after reading the last part of your post 5 times, I'm still utterly confused as to what you are trying to say.

I believe one of the first arguments I read in this thread is that Babe Ruth isn't even regarded as the ultimate best of all time in his own sport, due to other baseball players. However, that is something that could most likely be said about Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali as well.

Ali is considered one of the greatest, but so is Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson to some. Ali therefore is only among a few people that could be considered the greatest. Where as to argue Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Lebron James are also considered some of the greatest in his part of the business.

Babe Ruth is regarded as the best baseball player ever for the most part, but there a few arguments here and there against that. MJ is hands down the number 1 name when it comes to basketball, and there's not really a legitimate basketball mind out there that will say otherwise. Kobe still has to win a few more titles and maintain his greatness for a few more years, and even then, it may not be enough. LeBron has a long way to go still, shouldn't even be in the discussion of best ever at this point.

Ali may be the biggest "name" when it comes to boxing, but he definetly isn't the greatest boxer of all time. Basically everyone regards Sugar Ray Robinson as the great boxer of all time, even Ali himself. Ali may have been a great personality, promotor, and whatnot, but when he's not even the best ever in his own sport, how can he be considered the greatest athlete ever?

 

[The People's Peep]

Babe Ruth is regarded as the best baseball player ever for the most part, but there a few arguments here and there against that. MJ is hands down the number 1 name when it comes to basketball, and there's not really a legitimate basketball mind out there that will say otherwise. Kobe still has to win a few more titles and maintain his greatness for a few more years, and even then, it may not be enough. LeBron has a long way to go still, shouldn't even be in the discussion of best ever at this point.

Yes, there are people that might consider others like Hank Aaron, Lou Gehrig, Willy Mays, and Ted Williams the best over Babe, but they are pretty much always compared to Babe when making a case. He is the standard for arguing about the GOAT of baseball and that makes him the best in his sport.

And you cant say the MJ is hands down the best basketball player. After some research, you will find that Wilt holds more NBA records than MJ, including the all important all time scoring record. A lot of Jordan's legacy comes from his clutch moments, which are immeasurable. When you look at pure stats there is a very, very, good case for Wilt Chamberlain to be the GOAT of basketball.

 

[Big Sexy]

And you cant say the MJ is hands down the best basketball player. After some research, you will find that Wilt holds more NBA records than MJ, including the all important all time scoring record. A lot of Jordan's legacy comes from his clutch moments, which are immeasurable. When you look at pure stats there is a very, very, good case for Wilt Chamberlain to be the GOAT of basketball.

You should probably do your research again. A lot of Wilt's records are single game or single season records. The all time leading scorer in NBA history is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with MJ coming in third. The all time leading scorer when it comes to points per game is.... Michael Jordan. Wilt is number two in the points per game department. When you look at pure stats Michael Jordan is still the best player in NBA history. Not to mention Jordan did it against a lot more and better competition. Wilt was 7'1 and played at a time when the average size for centers was under 6'10. Throughout his career there were only 10-14 teams in the entire league and his best seasons came when there was only 10 teams. Inferior competition helped Wilt's stats a lot.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

With the exception of Robert Horry, every single player with more rings then Jordan was part of the Celtics 60's dynasty. That was also back when the NBA had about 10-14 teams. Jordan won his 6 rings with 27-29 teams. Robert Horry just happened to move from Hakeem, to Shaq and Kobe, to Tim Duncan. Btw there are 6 guys with more WS rings then Ruth. They were all part of Yankees dynasty's but that's no different then what Jordan is facing with the Celtics dynasty competition.

Jordan is also 3rd in NBA history in total points, 1st in points per game, and second all time in steals. Just like Ruth, Jordan is at or near the top in all the categories he should be. Jordan is without a doubt the greatest scorer in NBA history and he is easily one of the best defenders as well. A great argument can be made to say he was the greatest defensive player for a guard ever. Ruth has just as much competition as Jordan in the stat categories where competition is relevant.

So basically they're deadlocked as being the greatest in their sport, there are a few guys that are better than each in different catagoriesbut are both pretty much the best. Let's try to decide the winner here.

Ruth was an amazing pitcher which is such a different position from what he was really famous for, his hitting. In fact it's so hard that today no one can do it, the only person that has been able to even attempt it was Rick Ankiel, and he's not Ruth. Where as Jordan tried baseball, but wasn't good at all. Really, there's no denying that he wasn't good enough to play that game. Point Ruth.

Rings, Ruth had a threepeat as a pitcher in Boston and a threepeat as a hitter in New York, plus another ring in the middle with New York and he was in the World Series in 3 other years. Jordan had two seprate threepeats with Chicago. Point Ruth.

 

[Big Sexy]

Ruth was an amazing pitcher which is such a different position from what he was really famous for, his hitting. In fact it's so hard that today no one can do it, the only person that has been able to even attempt it was Rick Ankiel, and he's not Ruth. Where as Jordan tried baseball, but wasn't good at all. Really, there's no denying that he wasn't good enough to play that game. Point Ruth.

You can completely take away Jordan's baseball run. He was still more successful as a basketball player then Ruth was as a baseball player. Jordan excelled in EVERY aspect of the game. Ruth was a very average defender in the outfield. Point Jordan.

Rings, Ruth had a threepeat as a pitcher in Boston and a threepeat as a hitter in New York, plus another ring in the middle with New York and he was in the World Series in 3 other years. Jordan had two seprate threepeats with Chicago. Point Ruth.

Michael Jordan won 6 rings against competition of 27-29 teams. Ruth won 7 World Series against competition of 16 teams total, however, there were only 8 AL teams and the only time the AL would play the NL was in the World Series so the competition was even less. All things considered, point once again to Jordan.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

You can completely take away Jordan's baseball run. He was still more successful as a basketball player then Ruth was as a baseball player. Jordan excelled in EVERY aspect of the game. Ruth was a very average defender in the outfield. Point Jordan.

False. Ruth has stood the test of time, even with al the athletes now getting bigger, faster, and stronger Ruth is still at the top of the heap. You can't discount Ruth's pitching years. He was at the top of the game and is near the top in more than a couple pitching catagories. Point Ruth.

Michael Jordan won 6 rings against competition of 27-29 teams. Ruth won 7 World Series against competition of 16 teams total, however, there were only 8 AL teams and the only time the AL would play the NL was in the World Series so the competition was even less. All things considered, point once again to Jordan.

So he had to play against the same great players more times a year so the teams would have the cream of the crop on each team, that means no games against teams like the Washington Nationals or the Baltimore Orieles. Point Ruth.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

The only teams that were legit threats during Jordan's career were Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Seattle, Utah, New York, and Indiana so that's only eight teams in my opinion that Jordan had fairly hard competition against.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

It doesn't change the fact that he still competed in baseball at a professional level.

He shouldn't have. I think that does, in fact, change things.

Where as Football/Baseball on the pro level is more common with Prime Time, Bo Jackson and others.

You want to know the difference?

Jordan retired from basketball to play baseball. The seasons overlapped too much.

Bo Jackson was able to play baseball and football CONCURRENTLY. Al Davis signed Bo to a deal that allowed him to finish up with the baseball season before coming to play football.

There's a HUGE difference between retiring from a sport to fail at another and playing two sports at a high level at the same time. Imagine the toll it takes on the body to play TWO PRO SEASONS IN THE SAME YEAR!

Barely being a 2-sport Athlete is still a 2-sport athlete even if it is just Barely..

Jose Canseco was a top-level baseball player who got his ass kicked in MMA. Does that make him a two-sport athlete? Not in my book.

and if my competition wants to bring up things like "having a sharp tongue" and pass that off as making you a better athlete than I sure as hell am going to drive the fact that Jordan played Baseball and Basketball on a pro level, name value or not

I think the "sharp tounge" this is horseshit too. Big time. It's not shocking, though, considering it's a conversation amongst wrestling fans.

They where all on my list of greatest athletes, but none of them can claim to being the best in there sport, and if you want to argue Jordan not being the best basketball player feel free to make your case, just like I have done regarding Ruth and Ali.

I can't and wouldn't try. He is the best in basketball history.

Playing multiple sports certainly makes you a great athlete, but being the very best at your sport comes first in my opinion.

Agreed.

Though Bo Jackson being an all-star in both baseball AND football? That's pretty damn impressive. Had he focused on just one or the other, who knows?

 

[Big Sexy]

False. Ruth has stood the test of time, even with al the athletes now getting bigger, faster, and stronger Ruth is still at the top of the heap. You can't discount Ruth's pitching years. He was at the top of the game and is near the top in more than a couple pitching catagories. Point Ruth.

You keep saying Ruth's records are standing the test of time when players are getting bigger and stronger but you also have to factor in the point that Ruth was physically superior to his competition and that also played a big role in his success. He was a lot bigger and stronger then the guys he was playing against. Now there are tons of big guys and no one player has a clear cut advantage over everybody else. I'm not discounting Ruth's time as a pitcher but overall I'd say Jordan dominated his sport and did it in more ways then Ruth did.

So he had to play against the same great players more times a year so the teams would have the cream of the crop on each team, that means no games against teams like the Washington Nationals or the Baltimore Orieles. Point Ruth.

Not really, there were still plenty of shitty teams during the period that Ruth played and he got to play them more often because he only had 7 possible opponents each year. Every year there would be a couple teams in the AL that would bring up the rear and often weren't even getting to 60 wins. Plus we all know that MLB didn't have the best of the best when it came to overall talent. They had the best of the best when it came to white talent.

The only teams that were legit threats during Jordan's career were Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Seattle, Utah, New York, and Indiana so that's only eight teams in my opinion that Jordan had fairly hard competition against.

How about that Houston Rockets team that won back to back titles in the mid 90's and were led by hall of fame center Hakeem Olajuwon? How about the Portland Trail Blazers that went to a couple NBA finals in the early 90's led by Clyde Drexler? San Antonio was always putting out good teams led by David Robinson, the Orlando Magic had a nice run with Shaq and Penny. With the amount of teams the NBA had there were plenty of teams every year that were very good and considered contenders. It wasn't the same teams every year but it was always the same amount of teams that were threats. The Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Bulls, Pistons, and Rockets may have won all but two NBA titles since 1980 but there is always plenty of competition. MJ is a huge reason why guys like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Miller, Ewing, and Shawn Kemp don't have championship rings on their resume.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

SSC, Space Jam was not a vehicle for Michael Jordan and attributing as much of its success to him like you are is wrong. The fact is that it's one of the better Looney Tunes films, one of the first to mix animation and live action. (I know Who Framed Roger Rabbit was the first big one and was superior.). With all of those factors, stop using that point. Any sport would have worked but Basketball was the right sport and with MJ, his career was at a lull, having stooped to play baseball.

But Muhammed Ali did just as much. Hell, in terms of a worldwide impact, his athletic displays in these legendary contests, captured the imagination of millions.

The reason why his vocal skills outside of the ring apply is because he brought more attention to his fights than anyone in history to that point. Just like wrestlers use promos to build up to and following big matches, Ali put himself out there to be heard. He was capable of getting it done in the ring but he wanted people to see him do it. No boxer, no athlete had done that before.

So I’ll avoid doing a word by word breakdown, but there are still points that I would like to address.

First, I didn’t attribute the success of Space Jam to Michael Jordan, though he was the main character and his presence in the film did make a difference in its success. The reason I brought up Space Jam is because of its success on the worldwide level, and it’s because of the films and the commercials that Basketball was able to become the 2nd most recognizable sport in the world.

You also want to discredit Jordan’s films and adverts, but at the same time you want to credit Ali’s vocal skills for bringing attention to fights? The adverts and the movies brought attention to the NBA, and they did it on a worldwide level as well; so to try and discredit Jordan, while at the same time crediting Ali for almost the same exact thing is quite hypocritical. Wrestling promos before a match, speaking at a podium before a fight, or advertising you’re the game of basketball through television ads, it all has the same effect.

The fact that no boxer had done it before is pretty irrelevant to Ali’s athletic ability, being the first at something, especially something that doesn’t take any athletic ability shouldn’t hold any barring as to how great an athlete you where.

As IC put, the two sport factor is null and void. As a two sport athlete he fails to compare to most.

Just because IC says it to be so doesn’t make it the truth.

Fact is, this point is way more relevant that Ali’s trash talking or Ali’s promo ability. Basketball and Baseball are two very different skill sets, and to be able to not play one of these sports for nearly 20 years and just pick it up on a whim speaks the extreme athletic ability of Michael Jordan.

On average it takes most baseball rookies over two years to get called up, and that’s considered to be ahead of schedule. Jordan had only been playing baseball for one year, and his numbers while not great they weren’t as terrible as people make them out to be. He was also given the chance to play baseball because everyone knew how athletically gifted Jordan was, and if they could harness that skill in a baseball player they knew they would have had something special. So it’s not just getting on opportunity on “name value” it getting an opportunity on “athletic value”.

His place as a legend is just but the best of all time? I know only a couple who could compete in the same breath, namely Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Anyone mentioned on this page more than four times could have a case made for them. As a distant observer I would credit a lot of the Bulls successes to the team around Jordan.

There is no way for you to twist the stats into your favor here, Michael Jordan is considered by all the greatest sports minds, athletic minds and sport writing minds to be the BEST basketball player of all time.

Wilt suffers from the same thing Ruth suffers from, a lack of competitive competition and being the only one of his size while playing. There were only 10-14 teams around during wilts career, where Jordan was facing twice as many teams and twice the competition. Wilts records are single game or single season records, Jordan’s records are mostly career achievements showing that Jordan was greater over a longer period of time while also competing against better competition.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has put up the same kind of resume Jordan has in the sport of Basketball, he’s got the stats, the awards, the championships, the MVP’s and everything else you could ever want from a Basketball career, and he did it better than anyone else.

As a distant observer you’d be wrong, it’s quite the opposite actually. Jordan was credited with making everyone around him better. Of course everyone needs a team of supporting cast mates round them, but what did they do when Jordan wasn’t around, NOTHING. Jordan leaves for baseball and they pretty much fall on their faces; the only thing that matters in pro sports in winning the “big one” and that’s something that never happened without Jordan on the team.

The Olympics have been dominated by more athletes in more sports. So MJ is not special in this respect. The fact is the US have clearly dominated this competition. Like Canada in ice hockey and other Americans in track sports, they are expected to medal and in most cases, gold is all they go for.

Boxing at the Olympics is an important step to becoming professional. In Basketball, it doesn't seem so much.

Here you go again, discrediting Jordan’s Olympic gold, while telling me that it was an important step for Ali to take. It doesn’t matter how “important” it is, this isn’t about the most important athlete, this is about the greatest athlete, and winning Gold on top of his other successes is what makes Jordan such an all time great athlete.

The Olympics were also a place for Jordan to bring Basketball to the world wide stage, something you want to credit Ali for, but you don’t want to give Jordan the same credit.

Jordan did just as much for his sport on a worldwide basis as Ali did for the sport of Boxing, again something that doesn’t have much to do with athletic ability, but still something you can’t overlook, especially if you’re crediting Ali with doing the same thing.

This point about Basketball being the worlds #2 recognisable sport? What's so difficult about recognising a ball being put into a hoop? Why this relevant? Is it even close to being the #2 participation sport? I doubt this.

The fact is the NBA is all that matters in Basketball. The big money is there. The European leagues suck and are formed by money. I'm not saying the players who play there are motivated by cash but there is a mercenary aspect like there is in football.

So, time to explain the importance of being the world’s 2nd most recognizable sport, again.

This argument simply goes hand in hand with being your argument for Ali’s worldwide impact, but Jordan takes it further than Ali ever did, and had a much more lasting impact that Ali did.

You talk about Ali’s promo ability quite a bit, and how it helped with boxing and its global recognition, well that right there is the importance of being the second most recognizable sport in the world, Global Recognition. Something that Ali was able to achieve back in his prime, but where has that left boxing now? In the gutter, that’s where. Were as Jordan’s impact on the global stage can still be seen today, hence Basketball being the second most recognizable sport. It wasn’t like that before Jordan time, and the worlds Basketball participation and skill skyrocketed during Jordan’s heyday and continues to do just that to this day.

NBA is also not the “only” thing that matters in basketball, not by a long shot. The European leagues are stronger than ever, with American players opting to play overseas instead of in the NBA. Olympic competition is better than ever in the sport of basketball, and Spain had always been a standout country for basketball outside the United States.

Keywords, in the US. Ali took it around the world and put on the most significant boxing matches of the 20th century.

Jordan took Basketball to the worldwide stage, and has put on some of the most memorable games in the history of basketball, as well as being responsible for some of the most memorable dunks and shots in the history of the NBA, and as stated above Jordan too had the same time of worldwide impact as Ali.

In his prime Ali had these to spare. Of course MJ does too but what I give to Ali over MJ is the physical punishment that he took. In the end it has cost an incredible chunk of his life and his quality of life too.

Ali dominates them. Even after losing nearly four years of his career, no one in recent years tops what he did for the sport or what he was able to do in the ring.

Losing 4 years or your Career and having to cut your career short due to injury only hurt his overall accomplishments and legacy as a great athlete.

Upon his return from his absence from the ring it was always said that he had lost a step, and he did lose a step. That’s why he took so many headshots and damage after making his return to the ring, the physical punishment is just something that comes with the sport of boxing. As sad as what happened to Ali is, it doesn’t make him any better of an athlete for it, it my opinion it weakens his case, as he spent 4 years in his prime not competing, were as Jordan’s time away from Basketball was spent playing another sport, Ali’s was because of his political and religious views; two things that have nothing to do with being a great athlete.

If he was great before his "break", then he was incredible afterwards for his simple ability to outlast opponents. In a sport more physically punishing than any other (until MMA) that is some display of athletic ability.

He was simply a better boxer with a better record before his “break”. He was forced to outlast opponents and take more damage because he simply wasn’t as fast or agile as he was before his so called “break”. I’m not taking anything away from the athletic ability one must have to be a Boxer, but absorbing physical punishment doesn’t make you a better athlete, and it’s because of the extra physical punishment that he took that his career was shortened; and this all goes back his time away from the sport in which he lost a step and was literally a worse athlete because of it.

While Ali was certainly one of the greatest athlete’s of all time, his 4 year break from the sport, leading to a diminished skill set, in turn leading to him taking more damage and having to end his career early takes away from the greatness of his athletic ability. This affected the longevity of his career and while he was great for a long period of time, Jordan was great for a longer period of time, and longevity of your career is certainly something you have to take into account when deciding the greatest athlete. While I can’t fault Ali for his absence from the sport, it’s still an absence that affected the rest of his career and in the end ended up shortening his career, taking away from his athletic greatness.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

As a distant observer you’d be wrong, it’s quite the opposite actually. Jordan was credited with making everyone around him better. Of course everyone needs a team of supporting cast mates round them, but what did they do when Jordan wasn’t around, NOTHING. Jordan leaves for baseball and they pretty much fall on their faces; the only thing that matters in pro sports in winning the “big one” and that’s something that never happened without Jordan on the team.

Let's be real here. There were no more teams that were legit competition during Jordan's time then there were during Chamberlain's time. During Michael Jordan's peak years the only legit threats on a consistent basis in the Eastern Conference were New York and Indiana. We're not going to make it out like every team was strict competition.

I like it when you point out that Jordan's teammates never won anything without him when Jordan never won anything without his teammates, especially Scottie Pippen.

Even though Magic Johnson hasn't been discussed, I will always take him over Jordan because of what he did on the court and how he helped revive basketball when it was nearly dead.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You keep saying Ruth's records are standing the test of time when players are getting bigger and stronger but you also have to factor in the point that Ruth was physically superior to his competition and that also played a big role in his success. He was a lot bigger and stronger then the guys he was playing against. Now there are tons of big guys and no one player has a clear cut advantage over everybody else. I'm not discounting Ruth's time as a pitcher but overall I'd say Jordan dominated his sport and did it in more ways then Ruth did.



Not really, there were still plenty of shitty teams during the period that Ruth played and he got to play them more often because he only had 7 possible opponents each year. Every year there would be a couple teams in the AL that would bring up the rear and often weren't even getting to 60 wins. Plus we all know that MLB didn't have the best of the best when it came to overall talent. They had the best of the best when it came to white talent.





How about that Houston Rockets team that won back to back titles in the mid 90's and were led by hall of fame center Hakeem Olajuwon? How about the Portland Trail Blazers that went to a couple NBA finals in the early 90's led by Clyde Drexler? San Antonio was always putting out good teams led by David Robinson, the Orlando Magic had a nice run with Shaq and Penny. With the amount of teams the NBA had there were plenty of teams every year that were very good and considered contenders. It wasn't the same teams every year but it was always the same amount of teams that were threats. The Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Bulls, Pistons, and Rockets may have won all but two NBA titles since 1980 but there is always plenty of competition. MJ is a huge reason why guys like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Miller, Ewing, and Shawn Kemp don't have championship rings on their resume.

I completely forgot about Portland as usual and Houston was only a real threat when Jordan left as evidenced by their two championships. Of course Jordan came back in time for the 1995 playoffs but they still lost in the second round.