NXT NWS Finals - The Greatest Athlete in History

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

A point I intend in coming back to for its sheer wrongness.

Jordan is responsible for the juggernaut you see today, You and Blue keep telling me that I’m wrong, but I’ve given the facts as to how and why he is responcible.

Very disputable. And also irrelevant. Muhammed Ali has more name value than any boxer, regardless of the ound for pound argument.

He may hold more name value than any other boxer, but that doesn’t mean he was a better athlete, and it also doesn’t mean he has more name value than Michael Jordan.

Jordan’s name is all over everything from Gatorade to Hanes, and his name goes hand in hand with Nike, his shoes and apparel are sold worldwide with his name and logo front and center.

Gretzky and Jordan had very little competition from other great teams. Muhammed Ali dominated his opposition, did it around the world and did it multiple times (when it comes to facing Foreman and Frazier)

While this is true for Ruth, it’s not true for Jordan, and only holds some truth for Gretzky.

Jordan played and competed against the best of the best from his era and the previous era as well.

A sport based on stats. Sounds enthralling. Cricket gets a lot of shit for being boring but baseball takes it for me.

This was my argument against blue, so I’m not disagreeing with you, this is something that Blue needs to respond to, not myself, as I’m not defending Babe Ruth As an athlete.

Baseball is barely in the top three in the US. Around the world it is not even in the top ten.

This discredits Babe Ruth, not Michael Jordan.

Basketball may be the second most recogisable sport but what does being a recognisable sport means.

It means being recognized by the world as a competitive sport. Jordan being the reason Basketball is number 2 on that list.

Neither of these are mainstream sports outside of the US. And so, Jordan and Ruth's place is this debate is rightly subject to debate.

Yes, actually Basketball is considered mainstream outside the USA, hence it being the #2 most recognized sport in the world.

Olympics Basketball is irrelevant, especially when they can pretty much call upon a Dream Team. Just like in 1992, when Jordan was one of many famous names.

Jordan won his first Gold Medal playing as an amateur in 1984.

Jordan’s dominance of Basketball, in part with him showing his abilities on a worldwide stage mixed with his mainstream marketability is what led to Basketball being the #2 most recognizable sport in the world.

But Ali is more famous than both of them

This is very debatable, I’d say Jordan has the greatest worldwide recognition based on the fact that his sport is more recognizable on a worldwide level, and his name is all over one of the most popular shoe lines of all time.

Babe Ruth had no affect outside the US. Baseball did not become a worldwide sport off the back of his success.

Not arguing here.

Jordan did a little more. But still very little.

As I’ve explained, Jordan did plenty for the game of Basketball. He’s responsible for where it is today

Baseball and Basketball make a mockery of their "World titles".

So you don’t want to recognize Jordan’s Olympic Gold on the World stage because of lack of worldly competition, but now you don’t want to recognize his NBA titles because it’s not on a world stage? You don’t get to have this one both ways.

Muhammed Ali not only took his sport around the world, he took it to Africa and Asia to massive fanfare and success.

As I’ve said multiple times, Jordan took basketball all over the world too, and was a far better athlete and dominated his sport like no one else.

Juggernaut? HA! Again, if I am not making this clear, Basketball is a minority sport outside of the US

I’m not sure if I’m making this clear, Basketball is recognized as the number two sport in the world, behind soccer.

Where is boxing on this list?

Not of all time, given that sponsorships have evolved into a monster. MJ was at the forefront of that thanks to Nike. But for every slam dunk picture of him, this picture of Ali standing over his downed opponent is one of the most famous sporting images of all time.

I got plenty of legendary Jordan images.

Not a huge achievement in basketball.

Olympic Gold is always a huge achievement and is not to be discredited for any reason; Jordan won Gold against the world twice, as an Armature and as a Pro.

I love Space Jam but I'll take your word on the commercials.

Spacejam took in over 230 million worldwide, just another way Jordan helped Basketball reach all corners of the world.

In terms of skill in their sport, I would accept Babe Ruth into this argument but his athletic ability leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree fully with this, The Babe is one of the least athletic athletes of all time.

A true athlete, has everything. Speed, fitness, agility, skill, power. The nature of baseball means that he is seriously not a candidate for being the greatest athlete ever.

Again I agree with this. Jordan had all of these abilities and more, the Babe on the other hand, well I’ll let you take that up with Blue.

I see that worldwide success is being touted as a big factor. Ali dominates both guys here and I fail to see anyone, any boxer, baseball or basketball players who can make an argument otherwise.

Again, the Olympic Gold proves Jordan had success on the world wide stage. You can’t discredit both the NBA championships and the Olympic Gold Medals.

Again, the P4P argument will be recurrent but I see that as a poor argument because of the comparison between sports. Joe Louis had an amazing effect because of his win/loss ratio and for the time he was fighting, he paved the way for Ali as a black fighter. Same with Sugar Ray Robinson, what had happened before Ali's time, paved the way for him to be so successful and for race not to be such a huge roadblock for him.

That’s the thing though, is he’s debatable as whether or not he’s even the best boxer, just like it’s debatable to whether Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time; where Michael Jordan is considered to be the greatest Basketball player of all time, with no debate.

We are comparing many factors here and like I've said, Ali pisses over everyone in terms of being so well known around the world. His success in the ring makes him worthy as well.

Again, this is debatable, and really doesn’t have a whole lot to do with athletic achievements; but Jordan’s name is known worldwide, and is way more relevant that Ali’s name at the moment. Jordan line for Nike nets them over 1 billion dollars a year, and that’s based off the Jordan name alone.

He is the greatest personality in any sport and as an athlete, there has been no boxer in recent years who can compare to his style, influence and ability.

Again, you’re just talking boxers here, and that’s where the Ali debate really lies, as to whether or not he’s even the greatest boxer of all time. Jordan is the only name out of the three that is unanimously the best ever at his sport, which is one of the reason I consider him to be the greatest athlete of all time.

 

[Goliath Uterus]

SSC's choice is the best, and I'm not just saying that because I want him to win. Ali isn't even the best athlete in his own sport, much less in the history of sports, Babe Ruth? Dude wasn't even a immpressive athlete, just a fat dude who was a good hitter, and a pretty good pitcher, but again, not even the best athlete in his own sport.

So yea, Jordan is the man, there's a reason why people are always looking for the "Next Jordan", and that's because he was the best. Period. People don't even ask the question, "Who's the best basketball player?" They ask "Who's the second best? Or the third?" Jordan is the best, no doubt about it. Ali? Fuck no. Babe Ruth........ Motherfuck no.

 

[a0161613]

This is a point for SSC but my last post was addressing both of your picks. If I didnt make it clear, I don't consider Babe Ruth relevant in this debate given that it is a debate of ATHLETIC ability.

MJ on the other hands is a serious candidate. Basketball evolved into a sport where ball skills weren't enough and athletic ability became a factor. But like I said, if I had picked Robinson, I would have been told to pick Ali.

I have to take this point about Basketball being the #2 recognizable sport. There is absolutely nothing to back this up apart from the fact that being recognisable means jack.

Basketball is NOTHING outside of the US. The league in the UK has flopped. The World Championships are a joke, just like the Olympics which are normally a cakewalk for the US.

The NBA is huge and rightly only second to football over there but like football and basketball, the success outside of the US is extremely minimal.

No-one pushed his sport to the level the way that Ali did. He changed the way that fights were built up as fighters never used to speak to the press. Ali cut promos, the like of which we still see today. His contests are the stuff of legend, "The Fight of the Century", the "Rumble in the Jungle" and the "Thriller in Manilla."

You could make a claim that nicknames for these events evolved into the wresting and MMA PPV names that we see today.

I just don't see Ali getting as much credit as he deserves because of how mainstream and ingrained sports like baseball and basketball in the US.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Numbers made the best choice here. Being the greatest athlete not only involves being dominant in your sport, but also what kind of legacy you leave behind. I'd also like to address a few things people have so far said in here:

1) Ali isn't the greatest athlete or all time because sports pundits and Ali himself say that there are better fighters: This claim doesn't work because, quite obviously, none of you guys read Numbers's opening post. Unlike you, he doesn't resort to wikipedia factoids. Instead, he makes a wholly original argument for why Ali is the greatest athlete of all time (coincidentally, though, SI did name him Sportsman of the Century, so put that in your pipe and smoke it, all you factoid lovers). So, until you actually address the significant points Numbers made in his original post, I'll consider your sloppy and ignorant dismissals of his argument irrelevant to the debate at hand.

2) Babe Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time: Ruth never even played in a desegregated baseball league...why is he even being discussed?

3) Michael Jordan is the greatest athlete of all time: Yeah, he's the greatest basketball player of all time, but he didn't transcend his sport like Ali did with boxing. Ali's trash talking wasn't the only thing that has made him a significant figure in America's cultural history: his conversion to Islam, his conscientious objection to the Vietnam War, and his remarkable in-ring comebacks make him an athlete much more worthy of veneration than Michael Jordan (although Jordan's relative shyness to the lime light is something I can respect).

Numbers has made the best pick out of the three contestants left. Great job, hombre.

 

[Big Sexy]

Basketball is NOTHING outside of the US. The league in the UK has flopped. The World Championships are a joke, just like the Olympics which are normally a cakewalk for the US

Seriously? You could not be anymore wrong. Basketball is a huge success internationally. There are leagues everywhere in Europe, China, Spain, and multiple other places around the world. The leagues are also very successful considering the contracts some give out. Josh Childress who is a solid NBA player decided to go over to a Europe and play for a Euroleague team because they were willing to give him a 3 year, 20 million dollar contract. Many players trying to make it in the NBA end up going to places like Europe and Greece instead because the pay is a lot better over there.

You're also wrong about international competition being a cakewalk for the US. Up until this year the US hadn't won the FIBA world championship since 1994. Spain won it in 2006 and Yugoslavia won it in 2002 and 1998. When it comes to the Olympics the US had to settle for Bronze in 2004 as Argentina won the gold. In 2000 the US struggled to just a two point victory over Lithuania in the semi finals before winning gold.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Numbers made the best choice here. Being the greatest athlete not only involves being dominant in your sport, but also what kind of legacy you leave behind. I'd also like to address a few things people have so far said in here:

Actually, Legacy has nothing to do with being an athlete, but if we want to talk legacy, Jordan's is going to be around longer and stronger than Ali's will be. Just look at the Legacy Jordan has left with Nike, 1 billion dollars in sales a year, and it's only gotten stronger since he retired. Now that's a legacy that going to stick around for a long time, on top of the fact that Basketball and Boxing are going in two completely different directions. Jordan's legacy is only getting stronger.

1) Ali isn't the greatest athlete or all time because sports pundits and Ali himself say that there are better fighters: This claim doesn't work because, quite obviously, none of you guys read Numbers's opening post. Unlike you, he doesn't resort to wikipedia factoids. Instead, he makes a wholly original argument for why Ali is the greatest athlete of all time (coincidentally, though, SI did name him Sportsman of the Century, so put that in your pipe and smoke it, all you factoid lovers). So, until you actually address the significant points Numbers made in his original post, I'll consider your sloppy and ignorant dismissals of his argument irrelevant to the debate at hand.

You may need to reach out a little further, because the straws your grasping at are nowhere near in reach.

I'm not going to continue to repeat myself, but If Ali isn't even the greatest boxer of all time than how can he be considered the greatest athlete of all time? I'm still waiting on that question to be answered.

Also sportsman is different than athlete, so being sportsman on the century is pretty irrelevant.

Half of the opening argument where things that have nothing to do with athletic achievements.

2) Babe Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time: Ruth never even played in a desegregated baseball league...why is he even being discussed?

Not going to argue this.

3) Michael Jordan is the greatest athlete of all time: Yeah, he's the greatest basketball player of all time, but he didn't transcend his sport like Ali did with boxing. Ali's trash talking wasn't the only thing that has made him a significant figure in America's cultural history: his conversion to Islam, his conscientious objection to the Vietnam War, and his remarkable in-ring comebacks make him an athlete much more worthy of veneration than Michael Jordan (although Jordan's relative shyness to the lime light is something I can respect).

Innovating boxing through style has nothing to do with being the greatest athlete. Just like any of the controversies he was involved in have nothing to do with him being the greatest athlete; perhaps "sportsman" but not "athlete"

So if Jordan is the greatest Basketball player of all time and Ali isn't the greatest boxer of all time, and Basketball is the second largest sport in the world and boxing is falling off the face of the earth; than how does Ali even compare athletically?

Ali's trash talking? please explain how that made him the better athlete?

His conversion to Islam, please explain how that made him the better athlete?

His objection to the Nam, how does that make him the better athlete?

These are the reasons for Ali being the greatest Sportsman, but none of this hold up for an argument about greatest athlete.

"Factoid" is, ESPN has Jordan as the greatest athlete of the Century, that's athlete, not "sportsman".

....and believe it or not, but that same AP that gave Ali the "sportsman" of the century gave Ruth "athlete of the century" so even you would have to hold the AP's opinion with a grain of salt, especially considering your opinion on Ruth.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

He may have been considered the best “Heavyweight” boxer of all time, but many consider Sugar Ray Robinson to be the greatest boxer of all time. Sugar Ray Robinson lost just one of his first 123 fights; he was also named the Greatest Fighter of the 20th Century by the Associated Press, as well as The Greatest Boxer in History by ESPN. Sugar Ray Robinson was also named The Greatest Pound for Pound Fighter of all time by The Ring magazine.

Mohammad Ali even ranked Sugar Ray Robinson as the Greatest Boxer of all time.

So it seems pretty clear that Mohammad Ali isn't even considered to be greatest boxer of all time, so in no way should he be considered the greatest Athlete of all time if he's not even considered to be the best in his own sport.

Sorry to reign on your parade SSC, but you have to consider the fact that Ali has had his life chronicled more time's than any so - called great sportsman in this thread.

The man is also a media Icon, and the first sportsman to stand up for his own rights.

for those who don't know, here's a history lesson.

I'll start from the beginning.

Cassius Clay, Superstar!

Ali started his career as the young Cassius Clay and won the light heayweight gold medal at the 1960 Summer Olympics.

Undisputed Baby!

Clay went on to become the Lineal Heavyweight champion on three different ocassions, the championship itself was considered the greatest in it's class, more so than the WBF, WBA, and IBF Heavyweight belts, the champion was considered the man who beat the man.

Ali was a people's champion who fought for his own right's as an individual, not only in a boxing ring, the whole dispute between the United States vs Cassius Clay in 1964 saw the man's whole career being stalled because he wouldn't fight the viat Cong, because he felt that as an individual they did nothing to hurt him or his family, so why fight?.

USA Vs Cassius Clay

Ali was convicted for refusing to be drafted by the united states Army in 1967,In 1971 Ali's case was taken to the supreme court and the decision was reversed due to the huge Public support, Ali basically beat the United States government which held his career in the palm of their hands.

A Journeyman's Champion/Rumble in the Jungle!

Ali fought in one of the the biggest boxing event's in the world, a journey that was documented on more than one occasion and re-inacted in Michael Mann's Ali, Ali fought a young George Forman in a match that most called a brutal beating, Ali was dominated by Forman for seven rounds absorbing all his blows until Forman wore himself out, leading Ali to hit Forman with a foray of punche's leaving Forman unable to make the count. The term was later coined Rope-a-Dope, Ali regained his world title after being stripped 8 years prior.

Ali was also part of another big event in the late 70's, the thrilla in manila.
This event was listed as one of the greatest matches of the 20th Century, the fight lasted 14 rounds with Ali winning by a ref stoppage.

The fight was controversial and made news outlets around the world.

Self Promoter

Ali drew interest to boxing by his own sharp tongue and wit allowing even none boxing fans to believe in his talent and tune in to watch a man who was otherwise considered below the white's as a stand out performer.

Ali is signified as great because he dealt with adversity all his life, prior to his career was plagued with racism, political influence, and religious outcry.

Did things his own way

Ali shaped his own career just like performers such as Hulk Hogan, Hulk is still considered one of the greatest wrestlers of the Wrestling Industry as Ali is considered one of the greatest boxers not only for his promotion of his fights but the fact that he managed to outwit his opponents in the ring.

And Finally

Ali defeated every top heavyweight in his era, something that can only be coined by a few,

If Ali's career doesn't speak volumes than I don't know what else can SSC, because this man has done it all.

This and the fact that he is still battling Parkinson's disease is a testimant to this man's fight, his fight has never been over, weather it's in the ring, or in the media, or on a political front Ali was a fighter.

This makes this man the Greatest Ever!​

 

[gd]

the first sportsman to stand up for his own rights.

Your post is pretty legit, other than this right here. Ever hear of a guy named Jackie Robinso? I'm pretty sure what he did can be considered "standing up for his rights", more than 20 years earlier in fact.

I'm sure there are other examples as well that happened well before Ali's time. Sure, what he did was pretty ballsy, but it's not like he was the first, or only one to do it.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

Your post is pretty legit, other than this right here. Ever hear of a guy named Jackie Robinso? I'm pretty sure what he did can be considered "standing up for his rights", more than 20 years earlier in fact.

I'm sure there are other examples as well that happened well before Ali's time. Sure, what he did was pretty ballsy, but it's not like he was the first, or only one to do it.

But was Robinson's charge recognised on a national level?, Ali fought the Untied States Government, it was covered by media outlets all over the world.

Robinson's was against the military and confined to an internal investigation, Althought his decision was still a ballsy one.

Ali's situation had cost the government more in the long run due to the fact that his situation enabled him to gain acceptance by a white culture that shunned his kind, as the war grew stagnent so did the Government's attempts to kill the mans career.

At least Robinson could still feed his family, Ali had to find other ways to make money till he could get his boxing liscence ban lifted.

So my point is still valid.

 

[gd]

But was Robinson's charge recognised on a national level?, Ali fought the Untied States Government, it was covered by media outlets all over the world.

Robinson's was against the military and confined to an internal investigation, Althought his decision was still a ballsy one.

Ali's situation had cost the government more in the long run due to the fact that his situation enabled him to gain acceptance by a white culture that shunned his kind, as the war grew stagnent so did the Government's attempts to kill the mans career.

At least Robinson could still feed his family, Ali had to find other ways to make money till he could get his boxing liscence ban lifted.

So my point is still valid.

No you even know who Jackie Robinson is? Doesn't appear so. First African American baseball player in the major leagues, Hall of Famers, people screamed derogatory remarks, threw things at him, etc. when he was on the road. Ring a bell?

Breaking the color barrier surely was a big deal. I'd say by going out there every day and standing up to the intolerance and the bigotry by just playing ball can be considered standing up for his rights.

So your point is not valid. Don't start a complete shitfest over this though Deej. It's really not necessary.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

No you even know who Jackie Robinson is? Doesn't appear so. First African American baseball player in the major leagues, Hall of Famers, people screamed derogatory remarks, threw things at him, etc. when he was on the road. Ring a bell?

Breaking the color barrier surely was a big deal. I'd say by going out there every day and standing up to the intolerance and the bigotry by just playing ball can be considered standing up for his rights.

So your point is not valid. Don't start a complete shitfest over this though Deej. It's really not necessary.

I know who Jackie Robinson is GD, All im saying is his "fight" against the united states army didn't recieve the full coverage that Ali did against the United States government, yes Ali was not the first black Athlete to defend himself in this manner he was still the first to be outspoken about it on a national level.

Robinson may have broken barriers on a national level but Ali braught press to mainstream boxing that no other fighter of color in his time was able to, Ali didn't just leave a mark, he made people pay attention outside of the boxing world too.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

I know who Jackie Robinson is GD, All im saying is his "fight" against the united states army didn't recieve the full coverage that Ali did against the United States government, yes Ali was not the first black Athlete to defend himself in this manner he was still the first to be outspoken about it on a national level.

Robinson may have broken barriers on a national level but Ali braught press to mainstream boxing that no other fighter of color in his time was able to, Ali didn't just leave a mark, he made people pay attention outside of the boxing world too.

His "fight" against the united states army has nothing to do with being a great athlete. That may be a reason why he's considered "Sportsman" of the century, but being a great Sportsman, is different than being a great Athlete.

Sugar Ray Robinson, who was boxing 20 years before Ali, was African American as well, and had it much tougher than Ali did. He's also considered to be the best pound for pound boxer of all time. Something that nobody seems to want to address.

All of the things Ali did outside the ring are great, but those things don't really play a part in how great of an athlete he was.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Actually, Legacy has nothing to do with being an athlete, but if we want to talk legacy, Jordan's is going to be around longer and stronger than Ali's will be. Just look at the Legacy Jordan has left with Nike, 1 billion dollars in sales a year, and it's only gotten stronger since he retired. Now that's a legacy that going to stick around for a long time, on top of the fact that Basketball and Boxing are going in two completely different directions. Jordan's legacy is only getting stronger.

Legacy has a lot to do with who is and isn't considered a great athlete...how else do you plan on comparing people from two different types of sports? Oh, that's right: pundit lists that you just look up without actually reading the argument that's being made for a particular athlete.

Also, Jordan's legacy is not getting stronger; he's the owner of an NBA franchise that can't past the first round of the playoffs and his brand would now be insignificant if it weren't for endorsements apart from his own.

You may need to reach out a little further, because the straws your grasping at are nowhere near in reach.

Riiight.

I'm not going to continue to repeat myself, but If Ali isn't even the greatest boxer of all time than how can he be considered the greatest athlete of all time? I'm still waiting on that question to be answered.

Numbers has given plenty of reasons for why Ali is the greatest boxer of all time; it's just that you haven't read he wrote. You've been reading what all-time-greatest list compilers have wrote, but you haven't read what Numbers wrote.

Also sportsman is different than athlete, so being sportsman on the century is pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, you have no room to say what does and doesn't make an athlete great. After all, weren't you the one who said Michael Jackson was the most controversial musician of all time based on his life rather than his music?

Your reasoning was thus:

1) Michael Jackson was a musician.
2) His personal life was pretty controversial.
3) Therefore, he was the most controversial musician ever.

Numbers could make the same argument about Ali (replacing musician with athlete and controversial with great) and you'd HAVE to logically accept it based on your past equivocation.

QED

Also, athlete is synonymous with sportsman, so it's not irrelevant.

Half of the opening argument where things that have nothing to do with athletic achievements.

And yet you didn't even respond to them properly. So, as far I'm concerned, Numbers has made an argument that you don't have the power to contest.

Innovating boxing through style has nothing to do with being the greatest athlete. Just like any of the controversies he was involved in have nothing to do with him being the greatest athlete; perhaps "sportsman" but not "athlete"

Sportsman and athlete are synonymous, as I've already said.

Also, in this case, innovation has everything to do with why Ali is the greatest boxer ever. He won over 50 fights and lost 5; there must have been something about his style that allowed him to amass so many wins and so little losses.

So if Jordan is the greatest Basketball player of all time and Ali isn't the greatest boxer of all time, and Basketball is the second largest sport in the world and boxing is falling off the face of the earth; than how does Ali even compare athletically?

Uh, what? Why is Ali not the greatest boxer of all time? Because a list tells you so? Based off of Numbers's argument, I'd consider him not only the best boxer of all time, but also the greatest athlete of all time.

You and Blue Cardinal both refuse to look at anything other than lists in rebutting Numbers, and it has done nothing but make you two look like you are unable to properly engage in a debate.

Ali's trash talking? please explain how that made him the better athlete?

Because it made people much more excited to watch his fights.

His conversion to Islam, please explain how that made him the better athlete?

It didn't make him a better athlete, but it did further highlight the metaphorical chip he had on his shoulder and his problems with authority...these only made him that much more of a spectacle.

His objection to the Nam, how does that make him the better athlete?

Read what I wrote above.

These are the reasons for Ali being the greatest Sportsman, but none of this hold up for an argument about greatest athlete.

Oh, they work fine. Maybe not for your definition of an athlete, but you haven't even supported your definition that well: in your opening post, I see nothing but a list of accolades, some unremarkable minor-league baseball stats, and a bunch of claims not substantiated by proper measurements. Thankfully, Numbers's implicit definition of an athlete allows him to still make a solid argument without having to heavily censor and generalize his evidence.

"Factoid" is, ESPN has Jordan as the greatest athlete of the Century, that's athlete, not "sportsman".

....and believe it or not, but that same AP that gave Ali the "sportsman" of the century gave Ruth "athlete of the century" so even you would have to hold the AP's opinion with a grain of salt, especially considering your opinion on Ruth.

This would work if the source I cited was neither ESPN nor the Associated Press.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Sorry to reign on your parade SSC, but you have to consider the fact that Ali has had his life chronicled more time's than any so - called great sportsman in this thread.

There's a reason the AP hands out athlete of the year and sportsman of the year, because they're two different things.

The man is also a media Icon, and the first sportsman to stand up for his own rights.

He is also a media Icon, but Jordan took it to a new level, granted Ali didn't have these same opportunities; but never the less Jordan built a name for himself that is running stronger than ever. He nets Nike over 1 billion dollars yearly off his name alone.

Ali started his career as the young Cassius Clay and won the light heayweight gold medal at the 1960 Summer Olympics.

Clay went on to become the Lineal Heavyweight champion on three different ocassions, the championship itself was considered the greatest in it's class, more so than the WBF, WBA, and IBF Heavyweight belts, the champion was considered the man who beat the man.

Ali has plenty of belts and accolades, but it's nothing that can't be matched by Jordan's success. Comparing boxing titles to NBA Championships is a pretty pointless argument to even get into.

I'm not taking anything away from his success in the boxing ring, but arguments can be made that he wasn't even the best heavyweight fighter all all time let alone the Best Pound fighter.

Ali was a people's champion who fought for his own right's as an individual, not only in a boxing ring, the whole dispute between the United States vs Cassius Clay in 1964 saw the man's whole career being stalled because he wouldn't fight the viat Cong, because he felt that as an individual they did nothing to hurt him or his family, so why fight?.

Ali was convicted for refusing to be drafted by the united states Army in 1967,In 1971 Ali's case was taken to the supreme court and the decision was reversed due to the huge Public support, Ali basically beat the United States government which held his career in the palm of their hands.

This is what makes the difference between sportsman, and athlete.

Ali fought in one of the the biggest boxing event's in the world, a journey that was documented on more than one occasion and re-inacted in Michael Mann's Ali, Ali fought a young George Forman in a match that most called a brutal beating, Ali was dominated by Forman for seven rounds absorbing all his blows until Forman wore himself out, leading Ali to hit Forman with a foray of punche's leaving Forman unable to make the count. The term was later coined Rope-a-Dope, Ali regained his world title after being stripped 8 years prior.

While it's certainly a great story, it adds to why he is the greatest sportsman of the century, and not the greatest athlete. The biggest boxing event in the world doesn't have much to do with being a great athlete.

Ali drew interest to boxing by his own sharp tongue and wit allowing even none boxing fans to believe in his talent and tune in to watch a man who was otherwise considered below the white's as a stand out performer.

Ali is signified as great because he dealt with adversity all his life, prior to his career was plagued with racism, political influence, and religious outcry.

This is pretty irrelevant to anything having to do with a great athlete.

How does having a "sharp tongue" make you a better athlete?

What does Political influence and Religious outcry have to do with being a great athlete?

Sugar Ray Robinson fought 20 years before and dealt with same issues and is considered to be a better overall boxer.

If Ali's career doesn't speak volumes than I don't know what else can SSC, because this man has done it all.

It speaks volumes as to why he is considered to be the greatest sportsman of all time and not the greatest athlete.

This and the fact that he is still battling Parkinson's disease is a testimant to this man's fight, his fight has never been over, weather it's in the ring, or in the media, or on a political front Ali was a fighter.[/CENTER]

As sad as the situation is it has absolutely nothing to do with being a great athlete, just like any political influence he had has nothing to do with what makes him an athlete.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

His "fight" against the united states army has nothing to do with being a great athlete. That may be a reason why he's considered "Sportsman" of the century, but being a great Sportsman, is different than being a great Athlete.

government, not army mate and yes it does when they are stopping you from doing what you love, and for ali, that was boxing.

Sugar Ray Robinson, who was boxing 20 years before Ali, was African American as well, and had it much tougher than Ali did. He's also considered to be the best pound for pound boxer of all time. Something that nobody seems to want to address.

yet ali is still fighting, robinson and ali are two different boxers, different weight classes and ali was a better promo man.

All of the things Ali did outside the ring are great, but those things don't really play a part in how great of an athlete he was.

really?, Ali braught national attention to hi fights, the guy did for boxing what hogan did for wrestling, if it wan't for his condition ali would hae done more in terms of his career.

he even boxed antonio anoki in a wrestler s boxer match, one of two to be exact!

There's a reason the AP hands out athlete of the year and sportsman of the year, because they're two different things.

Who is AP?...

He is also a media Icon, but Jordan took it to a new level, granted Ali didn't have these same opportunities; but never the less Jordan built a name for himself that is running stronger than ever. He nets Nike over 1 billion dollars yearly off his name alone.

you mean buying a crappy team, doing some crappy movies, failing at baseball and than going back to basketball because he had no other option?

Jordan has basically taken his career to new levels of failing.

Ali has plenty of belts and accolades, but it's nothing that can't be matched by Jordan's success. Comparing boxing titles to NBA Championships is a pretty pointless argument to even get into.

So why mention it?, Jordan may come from a different field but atleast Ali could capture people's attention, Jordan was bland as an entertainer the only time people would get excited was when he actually scored, which nowdays isn't even a reality anymore.

I'm not taking anything away from his success in the boxing ring, but arguments can be made that he wasn't even the best heavyweight fighter all all time let alone the Best Pound fighter.

Name me a heavyweight that promoted himself better than Ali or has had more media attention and i'll withdraw my arguement, the fact is you can't.

Ali was a people's champion who fought for his own right's as an individual, not only in a boxing ring, the whole dispute between the United States vs Cassius Clay in 1964 saw the man's whole career being stalled because he wouldn't fight the viat Cong, because he felt that as an individual they did nothing to hurt him or his family, so why fight?.

You either attempted to quote me or copied my arguement here.

This is what makes the difference between sportsman, and athlete.

Aren't wrestlers not athlete's?, isn't pro wrestling a predetermined sport?, what's the difference?, sports and athletisism are one in the same mate.

While it's certainly a great story, it adds to why he is the greatest sportsman of the century, and not the greatest athlete. The biggest boxing event in the world doesn't have much to do with being a great athlete.

This is the worst arguement i've seen from you yet, Ali professionally boxed, he braught character to the sport, something copied by not only boxers, rappers, wrestlers, reality tv stars, you cannot say that Ali didn't do this.

You keep trying to find differences but atheletes and sportsman are one, and ali was the totaly package dude.

This is pretty irrelevant to anything having to do with a great athlete.

This is not a valid arguement

How does having a "sharp tongue" make you a better athlete?

He drew interest into his matches with his sharp tongue, he wasn't part of a team like Jordan, Ali drew people in with his wit and sharp tongue, Jordan just played the game.

What does Political influence and Religious outcry have to do with being a great athlete?

It nearly killed his career, pay attention.

Sugar Ray Robinson fought 20 years before and dealt with same issues and is considered to be a better overall boxer.

What issue's?, wait because he was black? did robinson speak out against racism?, no he did not.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Legacy has a lot to do with who is and isn't considered a great athlete...how else do you plan on comparing people from two different types of sports? Oh, that's right: pundit lists that you just look up without actually reading the argument that's being made for a particular athlete.

The great thing about sports is it’s filled with numbers and statistics, readily available to anyone who wants them. You can assume that all I do is look up “pundit lists” and base my opinions on other people’s views all you want. It’s just your opinion.

I’ve read the argument, converting to Islam? This isn’t the most controversial athlete, or the most influential athlete. This is the greatest athlete of all time

Also, Jordan's legacy is not getting stronger; he's the owner of an NBA franchise that can't past the first round of the playoffs and his brand would now be insignificant if it weren't for endorsements apart from his own.

Lol. Jordan makes Nike over 1billion dollars a year off his name alone. Air Jordan’s are always the hottest shoe on the market and his logo is all over each and every one of them. The Jordan name means much more to the current generation than Ali’s does, and at the current pace boxing is just going to be a thing of the past; while Basketball is the second most recognizable sport in the world and growing.

It looks like you haven’t bothered to read anything I’ve wrote, and simply assume I just “read a bunch of Pundit Lists”.

Yeah, you have no room to say what does and doesn't make an athlete great. After all, weren't you the one who said Michael Jackson was the most controversial musician of all time based on his life rather than his music?

Great memory you’ve got there, better than mine anyways, was that me?

How is Michael Jackson being the most controversial musician of all time relevant to this debate?

Your reasoning was thus:

1) Michael Jackson was a musician.
2) His personal life was pretty controversial.
3) Therefore, he was the most controversial musician ever.

Numbers could make the same argument about Ali (replacing musician with athlete and controversial with great) and you'd HAVE to logically accept it based on your past equivocation.

This is why every year they offer of the Athlete of the Year, and the Sportsman of the Year, because they’re two different things.

It looks like I really made an impact on you with that Michael Jackson thread, no?

And yet you didn't even respond to them properly. So, as far I'm concerned, Numbers has made an argument that you don't have the power to contest.

I made a perfectly valid point that I never got an answer to, all I got was an excuse about pound for pound fighters, so as far as I’m concerned I’ve made an argument that numbers cant contest; but again, that’s just one mans opinion.

Also, in this case, innovation has everything to do with why Ali is the greatest boxer ever. He won over 50 fights and lost 5; there must have been something about his style that allowed him to amass so many wins and so little losses.

Again, this just goes to show you didn’t bother reading through any of my posts and just assumed I was throwing out recycled information from some “pundits list”

Let me introduce you to Sugar Ray Robinson, who I consider to be the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time. 50-1 is nice, but I’d rather have 128-1-2, he was so good they created the pound for pound comparison just for him. So if you want be to consider him the greatest athlete, prove he was even the greatest boxer. You provided a record, I provided a record, there really must have been something about Sugar Ray’s style.

Uh, what? Why is Ali not the greatest boxer of all time? Because a list tells you so? Based off of Numbers's argument, I'd consider him not only the best boxer of all time, but also the greatest athlete of all time.

No, because the numbers do. What’s with your obsession with these lists?

You and Blue Cardinal both refuse to look at anything other than lists in rebutting Numbers, and it has done nothing but make you two look like you are unable to properly engage in a debate.

Wow, lists again. Please do continue with your assumption that all I do is read “pundit lists” and that I do not know how to properly engage in a debate. If you want to bring my past threads into this, which clearly you do, just look at my Borat thread, and go find me that list. Okay?

Because it made people much more excited to watch his fights.

It didn't make him a better athlete, but it did further highlight the metaphorical chip he had on his shoulder and his problems with authority...these only made him that much more of a spectacle.

Read what I wrote above.

Not a thing to do with athletic ability.

Oh, they work fine. Maybe not for your definition of an athlete, but you haven't even supported your definition that well: in your opening post, I see nothing but a list of accolades, some unremarkable minor-league baseball stats, and a bunch of claims not substantiated by proper measurements. Thankfully, Numbers's implicit definition of an athlete allows him to still make a solid argument without having to heavily censor and generalize his evidence.

I’ve more than stated what I believe an athlete is, you just haven’t bothered to read anything other than my opening post and just assume that everything I say is based off of lists. I’m pretty sure I’ve made more than my opening post in this thread, and you clearly ignored every single one of them.

 

[Big Sexy]

yet ali is still fighting

What in the blue fuck does Ali having Parkinson's disease have to do with him being a great athlete. Seriously dude this isn't a "which athlete has had the worst illness thread." It is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

really?, Ali braught national attention to hi fights, the guy did for boxing what hogan did for wrestling, if it wan't for his condition ali would hae done more in terms of his career.

Boxing already had tons of media attention. Ali definitely added more but don't act like he single handedly brought boxing into the limelight because that is 100% false.

And exactly what else was Ali going to do in terms of his career if he didn't get Parkinson's? The guy retired for the final time in 1981 and wasn't diagnosed until 1984.

Who is AP?...

The Associated Press.

you mean buying a crappy team, doing some crappy movies, failing at baseball and than going back to basketball because he had no other option?

No, he means becoming the first ever former player to become majority owner of a franchise. A franchise that, by the way, made the playoffs last year. He made ONE movie, and it grossed $90,418,342 in the United States and approximately $230,000,000 internationally. The fact that he even looked competent in AA baseball after not having played the game for 19 years was nothing short of remarkable and he showed great improvement late in his first and only minor league season. And he returned to basketball because he loved the game. The death of his father caused him to step away for a year and half and put things in perspective. Once he got away for a while he returned and didn't lose a step.

Jordan has basically taken his career to new levels of failing.

Your stupidity is mind blowing. Seriously, you not posting anymore would probably be in the best interest of the intelligence level on this forum.

So why mention it?, Jordan may come from a different field but atleast Ali could capture people's attention, Jordan was bland as an entertainer the only time people would get excited was when he actually scored, which nowdays isn't even a reality anymore.

Michael Jordan on the basketball court was the most entertaining athlete ever by far. The things he could do were jaw dropping. A Michael Jordan mid air move could capture more attention then any Ali interview.

Name me a heavyweight that promoted himself better than Ali or has had more media attention and i'll withdraw my arguement, the fact is you can't.

Seriously? More of this? What does him promoting himself have to do with how good of a fighter he was? SSC was saying it's arguable whether Ali was the best heavyweight fighter. Throw promoting himself out the window.

This is the worst arguement i've seen from you yet, Ali professionally boxed, he braught character to the sport, something copied by not only boxers, rappers, wrestlers, reality tv stars, you cannot say that Ali didn't do this.

Does your lack of knowledge know no bounds? While Ali brought a lot of character into boxing and may have done it better then anyone else, he wasn't the first to do so. In fact the aforementioned Sugar Ray Robinson was one of the main originators. I'll let wikipedia tell you all about it

Robinson was one of the first African Americans to establish himself as a star outside of sports. He was an integral part of the New York social scene in the 1940s and 1950s.[7] His glamorous restaurant, Sugar Ray's, hosted stars such as Frank Sinatra, Jackie Gleason, Nat "King" Cole, Joe Louis, and Lena Horne among others.[68] Robinson was known as a flamboyant personality outside the ring. He combined striking good looks,[69] with charisma, and a flair for the dramatic: He drove a flamingo-pink Cadillac, and was an accomplished singer and dancer, who once pursued a career in the entertainment industry.[70] According to ESPN.com's Ron Flatter: "He was the pioneer of boxing's bigger-than-life entourages, including a secretary, barber, masseur, voice coach, a coterie of trainers, beautiful women, a dwarf mascot and lifelong manager George Gainford."[7] When Robinson first traveled to Paris, a steward referred to his companions as his "entourage". Although Robinson said he did not like the word's literal definition of "attendants", since he felt they were his friends, he liked the word itself and began to use it in regular conversation when referring to them.[71] In 1962, when Robinson returned to Paris—where he was still a national hero—in order to persuade him to make the trip, the French promised to bring over his masseur, his hairdresser, a guy who whistled while he trained, and his trademark Cadillac.[72] This larger than life persona made him the idol of millions of African American youths in the 1950s. Robinson inspired several other fighters who took the nickname "Sugar" in homage to him such as Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Shane Mosley, and UFC fighter "Sugar" Rashad Evans.

Ali has been quoted before saying that Robinson was his idol and I'm guessing the "character" Robinson brought to himself and the sport was a huge influence on Ali.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

government, not army mate and yes it does when they are stopping you from doing what you love, and for ali, that was boxing.

I used "Army" because that's literally what it said in your quote.

yet ali is still fighting, robinson and ali are two different boxers, different weight classes and ali was a better promo man.

Hence the pound for pound created because of how great Sugar Ray Robinson was.

Being a better promo man, doesn't make you a better athlete.

really?, Ali braught national attention to hi fights, the guy did for boxing what hogan did for wrestling, if it wan't for his condition ali would hae done more in terms of his career.

If he didn't take so many head shots he could have had a longer career.

Jordan's commercials and movies, plus him dominating the Olympics on a world wide stage with the dream team helped to do the same for Basketball.

Who is AP?...

Associated Press.

you mean buying a crappy team, doing some crappy movies, failing at baseball and than going back to basketball because he had no other option?

Jordan has basically taken his career to new levels of failing.

Quoted for my own humor.

- 1 Billion Dollar franchise with Nike
- Starring in a movie that grossed over 230 million world wide.
- Owner of an NBA franchise
- 2 Sport athlete (6 time NBA champion, 2 Gold Medals.)

One more time.

Jordan has basically taken his career to new levels of failing.

Name me a heavyweight that promoted himself better than Ali or has had more media attention and i'll withdraw my arguement, the fact is you can't.

Being a good self promoter doesn't make you a better athlete, and It's easy to argue that Mike Tyson has had more media attention.

Aren't wrestlers not athlete's?, isn't pro wrestling a predetermined sport?, what's the difference?, sports and athletisism are one in the same mate.

I was talking about Sportsman and Athlete, nothing to do with pro wrestling.

This is the worst arguement i've seen from you yet, Ali professionally boxed, he braught character to the sport, something copied by not only boxers, rappers, wrestlers, reality tv stars, you cannot say that Ali didn't do this.

You keep trying to find differences but atheletes and sportsman are one, and ali was the totaly package dude.

Sportsman and Athletes aren't one, other wise they wouldn't be two different words.

Bringing character to the sport and influencing rappers doesn't make you a better athlete, and I've yet to see anyone make a case as to why Jordan isn't the greatest athlete of all time.

This is not a valid arguement

I agree, you didn't have a valid argument.

He drew interest into his matches with his sharp tongue, he wasn't part of a team like Jordan, Ali drew people in with his wit and sharp tongue, Jordan just played the game.

Wit and sharp tongue, nothing to do with what makes one a great athlete.

It nearly killed his career, pay attention

Politics and Religion have nothing to do with what makes someone a great athlete.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

What in the blue fuck does Ali having Parkinson's disease have to do with him being a great athlete. Seriously dude this isn't a "which athlete has had the worst illness thread." It is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Because he's still battling it you insensitive jerk., this show's that Ali is always a fighter, yet you come in this thread just to make fun of the guy's illness, good job btw.

Boxing already had tons of media attention. Ali definitely added more but don't act like he single handedly brought boxing into the limelight because that is 100% false.

so did wrestling, but Hulk braught it to new levels, Ali was doing show's no other boxer was doing, he was taking shot's at his opponent's on national television, yet you try and downplay the guys talent for what, oh so you can call on Jordans failings, good job again.

And exactly what else was Ali going to do in terms of his career if he didn't get Parkinson's? The guy retired for the final time in 1981 and wasn't diagnosed until 1984.

Ali had numerous offers, including starting on the silver screen, he knew he was hurt, he retired due to head traumer from his final match, Ali couldn't continue otherwise he would have died!.

The Associated Press.

I'm british so I didn't know who they where, their not multinational are they, go figure.

No, he means becoming the first ever former player to become majority owner of a franchise. A franchise that, by the way, made the playoffs last year. He made ONE movie, and it grossed $90,418,342 in the United States and approximately $230,000,000 internationally. The fact that he even looked competent in AA baseball after not having played the game for 19 years was nothing short of remarkable and he showed great improvement late in his first and only minor league season. And he returned to basketball because he loved the game. The death of his father caused him to step away for a year and half and put things in perspective. Once he got away for a while he returned and didn't lose a step.

He did a crappy Loonie Toon's Movie which was critically panned, yeah great movie

Your stupidity is mind blowing. Seriously, you not posting anymore would probably be in the best interest of the intelligence level on this forum.

And your arrogance see's no bound's.

Michael Jordan on the basketball court was the most entertaining athlete ever by far. The things he could do were jaw dropping. A Michael Jordan mid air move could capture more attention then any Ali interview.

Bull, that is complete and utter Bull, where's the documentaries?, did anyone want to play Jordan in a feature?, has a documentary on one of Jordan's matches won an academy award?, just because you say he's great doesn't make it so..

Seriously? More of this? What does him promoting himself have to do with how good of a fighter he was? SSC was saying it's arguable whether Ali was the best heavyweight fighter. Throw promoting himself out the window.

And your a fan of wrestling?, really, Ali did what no other athelete could, braught attention to himself and his sport by merely talking about his opponent's and acting arrogant, something that your mimicking at the moment.

Does your lack of knowledge know no bounds? While Ali brought a lot of character into boxing and may have done it better then anyone else, he wasn't the first to do so. In fact the aforementioned Sugar Ray Robinson was one of the main originators. I'll let wikipedia tell you all about it[/quote

Bull again, you seem to have no knowledge of Ali's career, so go back to the rock you crawled out of.

I've named three different fights that became apart of pop culture because of Ali, but yet you seem to ignore them.

Ali has been quoted before saying that Robinson was his idol and I'm guessing the "character" Robinson brought to himself and the sport was a huge influence on Ali.

He means alot to Ali, but Ali managed to take Robinson's falboyance to whole new levels, but you wouldn't know anything past your own voice would you lad...

 

[The People's Peep]

A great athlete is someone who shows a great display of athleticism and clout. They are a perennial winner and a true champion. They leave behind a legacy that remembered for the rest of time. To summarize in three words: George Herman Ruth.

There isnt much that can be said that already hasnt been said either in this thread or anywhere else. Not only was Babe Ruth a great hitter and outfielder, but he was also a great pitcher. Not many know this, but back when he played, a home run was ruled one based on where it landed. So if he hit one that curved around the foul pole and landed fair, it was ruled a foul ball. Many historians say that he would have another 50-60 home runs under current rules.

As a winner, Babe is a 7 time World Series Champion. Jordan is only a 6 time champion. You might say "Where all his MVP's if he's so good?". Well back then, once you won the MVP award, you couldnt win it again. Also, he was the center piece of one of the greatest teams in sports history.

The Babe's legacy is undeniable. He is easily one of the most famous athletes in history. He is the standard for sports greatness in my opinion. No one else is talked about more highly than Babe Ruth. To quote The Sandlot, he was less than a god, but more than a man. That is why Babe Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time.

 

[Big Sexy]

Because he's still battling it you insensitive jerk., this show's that Ali is always a fighter, yet you come in this thread just to make fun of the guy's illness, good job btw.

Where exactly did I make fun of his disease? Please show me. I said his disease is irrelevant to the topic at hand, which it is.

so did wrestling, but Hulk braught it to new levels, Ali was doing show's no other boxer was doing, he was taking shot's at his opponent's on national television, yet you try and downplay the guys talent for what, oh so you can call on Jordans failings, good job again.

I'm not down talking Ali at all. Honestly are you reading what I'm typing? And what exactly were Jordan's failings? The fact that he didn't rhyme in interviews? I had no idea that made you a great athlete. Jordan did all of his talking on the court. He is known as one of the biggest trash talkers in NBA history. Ali was great but in a conversation of best athlete ever you are putting way too much stock into Ali outside of the ring.

Ali had numerous offers, including starting on the silver screen, he knew he was hurt, he retired due to head traumer from his final match, Ali couldn't continue otherwise he would have died!.

Ahh yes movie offers. More things that are irrelevant to this topic. Ali suffered head trauma in plenty of fights. He retired because he could no longer compete at the level he was accustomed too. He actually retired in 1979 but wanted to win a heavyweight title for the 4th time so he came out of retirement and lost to Larry Holmes. He then retired for good after his loss in 1981 to Trevor Berbick.

He did a crappy Loonie Toon's Movie which was critically panned, yeah great movie

It actually garnered mixed reviews, some good some bad. It wasn't really a movie that critics were going to like regardless. Kids however ate it up. Hence why it made a shit ton of money worldwide.

Bull, that is complete and utter Bull, where's the documentaries?, did anyone want to play Jordan in a feature?, has a documentary on one of Jordan's matches won an academy award?, just because you say he's great doesn't make it so..

So you have to have movies and documentaries made about you to be considered an entertaining athlete? Ok. He just had a recent documentary about him on ESPN for their 30 for 30 series, documenting his first retirement and baseball career. "Michael Jordan to the Max" was a documentary released in 2000 and shown in IMAX theaters. Ultimate Jordan was a DVD released in 2001 covering his entire career. It was re released in 2004 with some added bonuses. It has been reported that Spike Lee is working on a Jordan documentary as well. I'd also like to point out that Ali's first major documentary came out in 1996, 15 years after he retired. The film on his career came out in 2001, 20 years after he retired. MJ has only been retired for 7 years. Nice try though.

And your a fan of wrestling?, really, Ali did what no other athelete could, braught attention to himself and his sport by merely talking about his opponent's and acting arrogant, something that your mimicking at the moment.

Wrestling is completely different from regular athletics. Hence why this is in the SPORTS section. I give Ali all the credit in the world for what he did throughout his career outside of the ring. However, that doesn't make him the greatest athlete of all time.

Bull again, you seem to have no knowledge of Ali's career, so go back to the rock you crawled out of.

I've named three different fights that became apart of pop culture because of Ali, but yet you seem to ignore them.

Trust me homie, I have more knowledge about Ali and basically anything American sport related in my pinky then you have in your entire body. Learn to fucking read. Here is my quote:

While Ali brought a lot of character into boxing and may have done it better then anyone else, he wasn't the first to do so.

I fucking said clearly that Ali brought plenty of character to the sport of boxing and even said that he did it better the anyone else. BUT I said he was not the first to do so, which is something you seem to be claiming. Stop twisting words around to make your arguments not seem so shitty.

He means alot to Ali, but Ali managed to take Robinson's falboyance to whole new levels, but you wouldn't know anything past your own voice would you lad...

I'm at a loss for fucking words right now. I've stated numerous times in this debate that Ali took what others did and did it better. Just look at the part of my post I quoted above. I clearly fucking say he brought a lot of character and did it better then anyone else.

You honestly cannot be this stupid. Please tell me this is a sick joke you're playing.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Well as some know I hade a post typed up this morning before it deleted, so here's try two. I'm not going to go through all that happened today in this thread and qoute it because I'm a bit tired, but I get the just of what everyone is saying.


Ali is thought to be the greatest because of things outside of sports, like his pop culture influence. No. This is about what the athletes did in their respective sports, which Ali wasn't even the greatest in.

The arguement for Jordan looks a bit similar to mine for Ruth, Championships(Ruth has the edge over Jordan) Jordan won three in a row so did Ruth in Boston then he was sold and Boston didn't win again until 2004 then he made it to two more then won another and then made it to another one before winning three more in a row. Jordan's baseball showing that he could do other things(Ruth was a pitcher and a damn fine one at that) Ruth was head and shoulders better as a pitcher than Jordan was as a baseball player. Also Jordan's Olympic medals are shit, he played on the best all star team ever against scrubs. It wasn't even a competition. This also isn't who is the most athletic guy, it's the greatest athlete of all time.

And Ruth is discredited for not playing with African Americans and Latinos and the ludicrous thought that he's not the best baseball player ever. Please read this link.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/191698/why_babe_ruth_is_the_greatest_baseball.html?cat=14

As for not playing any other races, well his records stood the test of time after the MLB was intergrated and even after some where broken he still stands near or at the top in all the most important catagories. Besides the Negro Leagues didn't hit their stride until the tail end of Ruth's career, so even had baseball been desegregated it wouldn't have made that much of a difference in Ruth's stats.

Again like I said, this isn't about the most athletic guy, it's about the best athlete. It's about what they did on the field/court/arena, OJ Simpson isn't looked at like less of a football player because of things that happened off the field. No one was as good in their sport as Ruth was in baseball.

 

[Big Sexy]

Ruth was head and shoulders better as a pitcher than Jordan was as a baseball player. Also Jordan's Olympic medals are shit, he played on the best all star team ever against scrubs. It wasn't even a competition. This also isn't who is the most athletic guy, it's the greatest athlete of all time.

1. Ruth's success as a pitcher is completely different from what Jordan did playing baseball. Ruth had been pitching and hitting his entire life and that continued in the majors until he became a full time position player. Jordan hadn't played baseball in 19 years. I believe that baseball is probably the hardest sport to just pick up after not playing for a prolonged period. It's a big reason why players that have been out for a long time with injury often make a couple minor league appearances before coming back to their major league team. The fact that Jordan showed great improvement and was able to look competent in AA ball is remarkable.

Don't get me wrong Ruth being a very good pitcher on top of his hitting greatness is phenomenal but just look at how good Jordan was at both aspects of the game of basketball. People always look at Jordan's scoring ability but MJ was also one of the best defensive players in NBA history. He was voted to the all NBA defensive first team 9 times, he is second all time in NBA history in steals, he set records for blocked shots by a guard, and in 1988 Jordan became the first player to ever win the NBA MVP award and the Defensive Player of the Year award in the same season. That is a feat that has only been accomplished 3 times since and it was all by big men.

2. When it comes to the 1992 Dream Team, yes their was really no competition in the Olympics. However, lets not forget a Jordan led team of college all stars in 1984 also won the Gold Medal. And don't tell me that the team of college kids was still far superior to the international competition because in 1988 the US failed to win gold with a team of college kids. They had to settle for the bronze in 1988. The talent level on the 84 and 88 teams was nearly equal with the exception of one guy, Michael Jordan.

As for not playing any other races, well his records stood the test of time after the MLB was intergrated and even after some where broken he still stands near or at the top in all the most important catagories. Besides the Negro Leagues didn't hit their stride until the tail end of Ruth's career, so even had baseball been desegregated it wouldn't have made that much of a difference in Ruth's stats.

That is false, the Negro Leagues hit their stride in 1920 when the first significant Negro League was started. That is also the same year Ruth started playing for the Yankee. It's also not as if their wasn't talented black players before that either. There were plenty of other negro leagues before that, they were just never able to stay afloat for financial reasons. The talent, however, had been there since the late 1800's. In fact in the early 1900's there were cases of all black teams defeating MLB teams in exhibition games. I'm not saying Ruth still wouldn't have been great, I'm just saying the competition would have been much tougher and he may not have been as great.

 

[Ferbian]

I believe one of the first arguments I read in this thread is that Babe Ruth isn't even regarded as the ultimate best of all time in his own sport, due to other baseball players. However, that is something that could most likely be said about Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali as well.

Ali is considered one of the greatest, but so is Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson to some. Ali therefore is only among a few people that could be considered the greatest. Where as to argue Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Lebron James are also considered some of the greatest in his part of the business.

Therefore, we're back to the starting point. While I would like to excuse if I fuck up a little bit in all of this, we all know I'm very dry on American sport knowledge, Ali being pretty much the only guy I know properly in this thread, and I never considered him the better athlete, I always considered Tyson the king of boxing, but that's just me.

While I'm not gonna go around and trying to compare all the lots of baseball accomplishments that X has to Y, Babe Ruth's resume more than exceeds itself when it comes to amount of home-runs, average hits and generally his accomplishments in the championship department. Something that could be said by others, but hardly something that could be said with the same amount of class that Babe Ruth accomplished it in.

Babe was quite a baseball player during his prime, setting the bar for many young baseball players that exceeds him, and are eventually going to exceed him in the business. Something that couldn't necessarily be said in the same manner of Michael Jordan and Muhammed Ali, because while they definitely placed a bar. They still had to face a bar that was already placed before them, by guys like Rocky Marciano for Ali, and someone like George Mikan, Bob Cousy and Bill Russell just to name a few for Michael Jordan.

And while all Ali, Jordan and Ruth are all considered to be all-time greats in their part of sports, and the first one you think of when you think of their respected sports, that doesn't make for them to be necessarily the best answer all of them. Babe Ruth pretty much would be the best answer, because while someone might have managed to top his amount of hits (or average, again, remember I'm awful with American sports, and might get some facts wrong, I hope you can respect that).

Overall, of these guys that have been chosen to be represented as the greatest athlete of all time by you guys (Which I have to say, you're doing a fine job at) I just can't choose anybody but Babe Ruth. Because whenever I've heard of professional baseball, I've always.. always heard the name of Babe Ruth, I have only half the time heard of the name of Ali, or Michael Jordan when someone talks about boxing and basketball.

And while it's not all that could be covered about it, I'll leave you "rookies" to do that debating, I still feel that all of this, should be more than enough for me to choose Babe Ruth as the better athlete.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

1. Ruth's success as a pitcher is completely different from what Jordan did playing baseball. Ruth had been pitching and hitting his entire life and that continued in the majors until he became a full time position player. Jordan hadn't played baseball in 19 years. I believe that baseball is probably the hardest sport to just pick up after not playing for a prolonged period. It's a big reason why players that have been out for a long time with injury often make a couple minor league appearances before coming back to their major league team. The fact that Jordan showed great improvement and was able to look competent in AA ball is remarkable.

But the only things he excelled at in baseball was the stats that had to do with speed. But even though he had great speed and stole a few bases he still got caught stealing 18 times. We keep putting Jordan's baseball endevour on a high pedastal when it was in fact shit. Jordan's baseball career showed he was very athletic, but not a great two sport athlete. There's a difference.

Don't get me wrong Ruth being a very good pitcher on top of his hitting greatness is phenomenal but just look at how good Jordan was at both aspects of the game of basketball. People always look at Jordan's scoring ability but MJ was also one of the best defensive players in NBA history. He was voted to the all NBA defensive first team 9 times, he is second all time in NBA history in steals, he set records for blocked shots by a guard, and in 1988 Jordan became the first player to ever win the NBA MVP award and the Defensive Player of the Year award in the same season. That is a feat that has only been accomplished 3 times since and it was all by big men.

But the difference between being a great defender and scorer on the court and being a great pitcher and hitter is huge. We both know the difference between hitting and pitching and how hard it would be to be great in both in the MLB, Ruth did it though. Jordan's d was great, but it's easier to be a great defender and scorer in basketball.

2. When it comes to the 1992 Dream Team, yes their was really no competition in the Olympics. However, lets not forget a Jordan led team of college all stars in 1984 also won the Gold Medal. And don't tell me that the team of college kids was still far superior to the international competition because in 1988 the US failed to win gold with a team of college kids. They had to settle for the bronze in 1988. The talent level on the 84 and 88 teams was nearly equal with the exception of one guy, Michael Jordan.

So Jordan has one medal then against real competition and the 88 team was only the third US team to not win gold since the sport was made Olympic.

That is false, the Negro Leagues hit their stride in 1920 when the first significant Negro League was started. That is also the same year Ruth started playing for the Yankee. It's also not as if their wasn't talented black players before that either. There were plenty of other negro leagues before that, they were just never able to stay afloat for financial reasons. The talent, however, had been there since the late 1800's. In fact in the early 1900's there were cases of all black teams defeating MLB teams in exhibition games. I'm not saying Ruth still wouldn't have been great, I'm just saying the competition would have been much tougher and he may not have been as great.

No they started in the twenties but kept going under, and by hit their stride I mean that the players became better and better, up to the level of the MLB players in some cases. Who's really to say that if blacks had been allowed to play in the majors that Ruth's stats wouldn't have been better? We will never know.