NXT NWS Finals - The Greatest Athlete in History

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Yeah, Golden Age... ON OFFENSE. Where was the pitching? Do tell? Aaron's era had much better pitchers. Much better. Gibson, Koufax...

Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, and Christy Mathewson for starters. They were great pitchers during Ruth's playing days.

What he said.

Add in Dizzy Dean to that list too.

I have a quick fact for everyone, in 1926 the St. Louis Cardinals beat the New York Yankees in the World Series, at the end of the last game all the Cardinals signed a baseball, including Rogers Hornsby. Well one Yankee signed that ball too, Babe Ruth. Significance? Well it goes to show that even in Ruth's playing days he was held in such a high regard with everyone else that played the sport. It's not just the history buffs that call Ruth the greatest.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Obviously not, it's doing everything else Ruth did in his playing time coupled with averaging that counted in with his 4 years as a pitcher to start his career. I know he didn't play against those races, but it's not his fault, but at that time the Negro Leagues weren't even doing very well. I know that's not how you judge an athlete, but it's the truth. The thing is Ruth had no choice in that matter so he can't really be penalized for that.

While I agree he had no choice in the matter, it still effects the overall competition that he faced.

But people still associate baseball with Ruth, like Numbers did just a minute ago in this thread. But I have to ask you, is being the most popular make you the greatest?

Ruth may have name recognition, but Jordan's name is much more recognizable world wide.

Popularity definitely attests to an athletes success, the more successful the athlete the more popular they're going to be. Especially when the athlete is competing on a world wide stage like Jordan, and while these things don't make you the greatest athlete, they certainly help.

He won medals against amateurs, Jordan that is. The team as a whole was head and shoulders above that competiton.

Jordan won his first Gold Medal in 1984 as an amateur.

It's because of the success Jordan had on the worldwide stage that helped to launch Basketball into the juggernaut it has become today.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

While I agree he had no choice in the matter, it still effects the overall competition that he faced.

Only if you believe that guys from those rcaes were better players than there was in the MLB at the time. Not in a racist way or anything, but they hadn't been playing baseball for years upon years like the white folks were at the time. It's hard to tell though.

Ruth may have name recognition, but Jordan's name is much more recognizable world wide.

Popularity definitely attests to an athletes success, the more successful the athlete the more popular they're going to be. Especially when the athlete is competing on a world wide stage like Jordan, and while these things don't make you the greatest athlete, they certainly help.

The media difference between when Ruth played and Jordan played are so vast it's ridiculous. In Ruth's day all they had where newspapers, we can flip this and say Ruth has stood the test of time but that wouldn't be fair to Jordan either. So our points pretty much cancel each other out.

Jordan won his first Gold Medal in 1984 as an amateur.

An American amateur in 84 was a million times better than an amateur from any other country. It's like Babe winning a trophy for playing on a team that beat high school baseball players.

It's because of the success Jordan had on the worldwide stage that helped to launch Basketball into the juggernaut it has become today.

It's not all Jordan, it's USA basketball as a whole and the fact that other countries started playing more basketball in general. No one is going to be good the first time they play a game. That's what happened with Olympic basketball, other countries had more time to play and have the popularity grow. It wasn't just because of Jordan that this happened.

 

[Big Sexy]

Ruth changed the game from small speedy average(BA) hitters to what it is today along with hitting for a high average. MJ didn't do it on his own, Magic and Bird had a big hand in that, and having a dominant big man is still coveted and still works. Basketball and football have evolved more than any other sports, everyone has gotten faster and stronger, MJ and Jim Brown just did it better than anyone else. So what I'm getting at here is that those games changed themselves by the players getting bigger and badder, where as Babe showed that having a guy in the middle of your line-up that has power can win you alot of games and is duplicated by every team in the MLB.

I have news for you. Babe Ruth wasn't the only power hitter during that era. Just like MJ had help from others the Babe did as well. Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hack Wilson, Chuck Klein, they were all great power hitters around the same time as Ruth. Let's also not forget about Josh Gibson in the Negro and Mexican leagues. Many people believe that if Gibson was allowed to play in the majors he'd have been a better hitter then Ruth and hit more home runs. I also don't understand what you're getting at by saying football and basketball players getting bigger helped evolve the games. Baseball players grow too. Increases in weight, speed, and strength affect baseball in the same way. Babe Ruth was the first great power hitter in part because of his size compared to others.

And just like having big men still works in basketball, having players hit for a high average still works in baseball. Power hitting was a natural evolution in MLB. Babe shouldn't be credited any more for changing his sport then a guy like Jordan or Brown should be credited for changing theirs.

We both know how different pitching is from being an everyday player, almost like two different sports actually. Ruth did both well, but obviously he excelled in the everyday role. You can't overlook what he did as a pitcher for Boston though. So many forget about just how good he was as a pitcher too.

It really isn't like two different sports though. Back in that day guys played multiple positions in every sport. Ruth grew up pitching and hitting like many players did. I'm not taking away how impressive him being a good pitcher was but let's not over blow it either.

My arguements will never be null or void, you know I got more than that. It's insulting to think otherwise.

That particular one is.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I have news for you. Babe Ruth wasn't the only power hitter during that era. Just like MJ had help from others the Babe did as well. Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hack Wilson, Chuck Klein, they were all great power hitters around the same time as Ruth. Let's also not forget about Josh Gibson in the Negro and Mexican leagues. Many people believe that if Gibson was allowed to play in the majors he'd have been a better hitter then Ruth and hit more home runs. I also don't understand what you're getting at by saying football and basketball players getting bigger helped evolve the games. Baseball players grow too. Increases in weight, speed, and strength affect baseball in the same way. Babe Ruth was the first great power hitter in part because of his size compared to others.

It's not news to me, I'm fully aware of what those players did, while I disagree with you on Gibson being better than Ruth. Gibson was impressive, but it's hard to really speculate what he would have done in the MLB. Alot of the stories on Gibson are impressive but they're just stories. Like the one where hit it out of Yankee stadium, only one guy saw it. It might have happened, but who really knows.

As for getting bigger, obviously getting bigger and faster changed basketball and football, height is a huge factor in basketball, in it's early days players weren't as tall or fast and that directly affects how the game is played. If a guy is faster than Superman and plays either basketball or football he will dominate, the same can't be said if he played baseball. So becoming bigger, faster, and stronger affects Basketball and football more than it does baseball. So it's safe to say that those sports were more affected by athletes getting bigger and better than baseball was.

And just like having big men still works in basketball, having players hit for a high average still works in baseball. Power hitting was a natural evolution in MLB. Babe shouldn't be credited any more for changing his sport then a guy like Jordan or Brown should be credited for changing theirs.

Yes a high average guy helps on a team now, but they really aren't built around like a power hitter. Now going off my memory, I can't even think of the last team to win a World Series without having a power hitter(let's say 30 homeruns a year) in their lineup.

It really isn't like two different sports though. Back in that day guys played multiple positions in every sport. Ruth grew up pitching and hitting like many players did. I'm not taking away how impressive him being a good pitcher was but let's not over blow it either.

I'm not over blowing it though. He wasn't just a pitcher, he was a damn good pitcher. He had a 2.28 era.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Only if you believe that guys from those rcaes were better players than there was in the MLB at the time. Not in a racist way or anything, but they hadn't been playing baseball for years upon years like the white folks were at the time. It's hard to tell though.

Big Sexy just answered that question.

The media difference between when Ruth played and Jordan played are so vast it's ridiculous. In Ruth's day all they had where newspapers, we can flip this and say Ruth has stood the test of time but that wouldn't be fair to Jordan either. So our points pretty much cancel each other out.

It was definitely an advantage for Jordan, while I'll give you Ruth standing the test of time, Jordan took advantage of the media like no one else, and is arguably the most marketed athlete of all time.

His name goes hand in hand with Nike, he's been in more than twenty different Gatorade commercials, and you still see him on tv with his line of Hanes commercials. The Jordan Logo, featured front and center in my sig is one of the most well known logos of all time. According to a 2010 issue of Forbes magazine Jordan was ranked currently as the 20th most powerful celebrity in the world. Earning more than 50 million, and earning the Nike brand over 1 billion dollars from the Jordan brand alone.

An American amateur in 84 was a million times better than an amateur from any other country. It's like Babe winning a trophy for playing on a team that beat high school baseball players.

He was still an amateur at the time. One of only 3 player ever to win 2 gold medals, one as an amateur an one as a pro.

It's not all Jordan, it's USA basketball as a whole and the fact that other countries started playing more basketball in general. No one is going to be good the first time they play a game. That's what happened with Olympic basketball, other countries had more time to play and have the popularity grow. It wasn't just because of Jordan that this happened.

This goes back to the marketability of Jordan, nobody has have been as successful and as marketable as Jordan was, and it led to his name being everywhere, all over the world.

Jordan had the world famous Spike Lee Air Jordan Commercials as well as staring in Space Jam which grossed over 230 million world wide. All of these things where because of Jordan's success and domination of the game, and this is why he is credited with bringing basketball to the worldwide success that it is today.

 

[Big Sexy]

As for getting bigger, obviously getting bigger and faster changed basketball and football, height is a huge factor in basketball, in it's early days players weren't as tall or fast and that directly affects how the game is played. If a guy is faster than Superman and plays either basketball or football he will dominate, the same can't be said if he played baseball. So becoming bigger, faster, and stronger affects Basketball and football more than it does baseball. So it's safe to say that those sports were more affected by athletes getting bigger and better than baseball was.

I still don't see how that makes Babe Ruth a better athlete then MJ. Michael Jordan was 6'6 215 pounds. Hardly the biggest or strongest guy in the NBA. There were tons of great players and athletes in the NBA before Jordan and none came close to doing what he did. He was really a one of a kind player. There was no one like him before he came into the league and now it seems like every wing player who can dunk is called "the next Jordan." And last time I checked baseball is often dominated by the biggest and best athletes as well. You think a guy like Albert Pujols being 6'3 230 has nothing to do with how good he is? Part of the reason Ruth dominated as much as he did was because of his size compared to everyone else. He was 6'2 215 while most other guys, including other power hitters, were under 6'0 and under 200 pounds.

Yes a high average guy helps on a team now, but they really aren't built around like a power hitter. Now going off my memory, I can't even think of the last team to win a World Series without having a power hitter(let's say 30 homeruns a year) in their lineup.

Let's just bring back the size difference thing again. Back when Ruth played players averaged about 5'8-5'10 in height and about 150-180 pounds weight wise. Now the average is around 6'1-6'3 and over 200 pounds. Of course there are going to be more power hitters because the size is completely different. It's nearly impossible to not have at least one 30 home run guy on each team. It's not like Ruth intentionally started hitting home runs out of no where to change the game. He was just the first guy to come along that was big enough to do so.

I'm not over blowing it though. He wasn't just a pitcher, he was a damn good pitcher. He had a 2.28 era.

For about 4 seasons yes, but again it's something he grew up doing. A lot of players back then and even some recently had both hitting and pitching skills. Rick Ankiel comes to mind, Dave Winfield was drafted as a pitcher, Jimmie Fox had a 1.59 era in 22 innings pitched for his career. Babe Ruth was obviously the best combined pitcher/hitter of all time but don't act like it was some impossible feat to be great at both.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Big Sexy just answered that question.

Not quite. It's just an opinion on Josh Gibson.

It was definitely an advantage for Jordan, while I'll give you Ruth standing the test of time, Jordan took advantage of the media like no one else, and is arguably the most marketed athlete of all time.

His name goes hand in hand with Nike, he's been in more than twenty different Gatorade commercials, and you still see him on tv with his line of Hanes commercials. The Jordan Logo, featured front and center in my sig is one of the most well known logos of all time. According to a 2010 issue of Forbes magazine Jordan was ranked currently as the 20th most powerful celebrity in the world. Earning more than 50 million, and earning the Nike brand over 1 billion dollars from the Jordan brand alone.

It's all irrelevant though.

He was still an amateur at the time. One of only 3 player ever to win 2 gold medals, one as an amateur an one as a pro.

It was still against inferior competition.

This goes back to the marketability of Jordan, nobody has have been as successful and as marketable as Jordan was, and it led to his name being everywhere, all over the world.

Jordan had the world famous Spike Lee Air Jordan Commercials as well as staring in Space Jam which grossed over 230 million world wide. All of these things where because of Jordan's success and domination of the game, and this is why he is credited with bringing basketball to the worldwide success that it is today.

He was great, probably the greatest basketball player of all time, but does he have a candy bar? I didn't think so. LOL jk, but really the marketablity of a player is irrelevant. If anything it overrates the player over time.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Not quite. It's just an opinion on Josh Gibson.



It's all irrelevant though.





It was still against inferior competition.


He was great, probably the greatest basketball player of all time, but does he have a candy bar? I didn't think so. LOL jk, but really the marketablity of a player is irrelevant. If anything it overrates the player over time.

Has being relevant overrated Michael Jordan? No, it hasn't.

It's perfectly relevant in the sense his greatness as an athlete led to the Jordan being so marketable, and without Jordan being such the dominate athlete that he was, Basketball would never have reached such worldwide popularity.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Has being relevant overrated Michael Jordan? No, it hasn't.

It's perfectly relevant in the sense his greatness as an athlete led to the Jordan being so marketable, and without Jordan being such the dominate athlete that he was Basketball would never have reached such worldwide popularity.

It hasn't been long enough. Peyton Manning does more commercials than Brady, does that make him the better QB, because he's more marketable?

See what I'm saying? Marketablity isn't really that big of a factor in this. Basketball markets it's stars better than any other sport in America, yet it's not the number one sport.

 

[Megatron]

Considering we're on the 4th page of this thread and I've only seen a peep of the guy mentioned at all, and hasn't even really been given a case for, the guy I would go with as the Greatest Athlete in History, is the one, the only...

The Great One, Wayne Gretzky.

The name fits well with this man. When he retired in 1999, he held or shared a grand total of 61 NHL Records between the Regular Season, Postseason, and All Star Game. It's almost a worldwide fact that this man is the greatest hockey player to ever play, and it's really not much of a debate. He has over 2800 career points, almost 1000 above the man in second place, Mark Messier.

Not only did he light the NHL on fire and give it an added spark, but consider this: There are two guys in all of the Big 4 NA Sports that have their jersey retired throughout their respective leagues: Jackie Robinson, which he rightfully deserves, and Gretzky. Think about it, Wayne nearly didn't have the social impact of the game as Jackie, yet he was such a great player that his #99 was retired throughout. Also, he was one of only a handful of people to not have to wait the allotted 3 year period to get voted into the NHL Hall of Fame, getting inducted his first year after retiring.

I mean, let's face it, while Ruth, Ali, and Jordan all dominated their sports, the man who did it the best and most often was the one they call, The Great One.

Oh yeah, here's all of Wayne's accomplishments, btw. He has so many that he has his own page dedicated to them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wayne_Gretzky

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

It hasn't been long enough. Peyton Manning does more commercials than Brady, does that make him the better QB, because he's more marketable?

Jordan revolutionized it, and Peyton wouldn't be doing what he's doing with all the commercials if it wasn't for Jordan.

See what I'm saying? Marketablity isn't really that big of a factor in this. Basketball markets it's stars better than any other sport in America, yet it's not the number one sport.

I know what your saying, I'm just showing you why Jordan is credited to bringing basketball to the level it's at today; and yeah, I'm talking on his own, Jordan was the face of basketball in the 90's and it was his dominance of the game that in turn led to the marketability, which led to basketball becoming the second largest recognized sport in the world, behind the freak of nature that is soccer.

I know that marketability isn't a big factor in this, but this shows how his greatness as an athlete went beyond any level that Babe Ruth was at, and that Jordan's Greatness had a greater effect on the NBA than Ruth's effect had on MLB.

 

[BooCocky]

I am gonna stick up for Blue Cardinal at the moment. What makes Ruth so good is his power. When he was hitting fifty homeruns, the second best power hitter was hitting like five. He was a freak for his time. He was probably one of the better pitchers of his time but they realized they couldn't take his bat out of the lineup. He didn't play more than 100 games until 1919. His career began in 1914. He lost five years of at bats. The power numbers didn't come in until 1919. Just think, if he didn' pitch for five years how many homeruns would he have hit?

He hit 694 home runs from 1919-1935. That's an average of roughly 40+ a year. I'm almost certain Ruth would have hit over 800 home runs. That's remarkable because players didn't have big home run numbers during that time period.

Ruth was a freakish athlete, whether he was on the mound or in the batters box. Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time, and there isn't a doubt in my mind...

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Jordan revolutionized it, and Peyton wouldn't be doing what he's doing with all the commercials if it wasn't for Jordan.

It's still doesn't make either a better athlete.

I know what your saying, I'm just showing you why Jordan is credited to bringing basketball to the level it's at today; and yeah, I'm talking on his own, Jordan was the face of basketball in the 90's and it was his dominance of the game that in turn led to the marketability, which led to basketball becoming the second largest recognized sport in the world, behind the freak of nature that is soccer.

But he's not, he didn't do it by himself. Magic and Bird got the ball rolling and MJ picked it up. One thing I haven't brought up yet, That year he was in AA the Bulls still made the playoffs and lost in the second round. I'm just pointing this out to show that the team of "scrubs" that he had around him wasn't as bad as it was made out to be earlier in the thread.

I know that marketability isn't a big factor in this, but this shows how his greatness as an athlete went beyond any level that Babe Ruth was at, and that Jordan's Greatness had a greater effect on the NBA than Ruth's effect had on MLB.

No sir. In baseball Ruth is a God. Ruth's effects on baseball are still felt to this day. Aaron breaking his all time record and the hardships he had to endure during that, Maris when he was chasing the single season HR record, the Curse of the Bambino. Ruth is still a huge part of what baseball is. Jordan might have made the NBA a few more dollars, but that's not really game related.

I am gonna stick up for Blue Cardinal at the moment. What makes Ruth so good is his power. When he was hitting fifty homeruns, the second best power hitter was hitting like five. He was a freak for his time. He was probably one of the better pitchers of his time but they realized they couldn't take his bat out of the lineup. He didn't play more than 100 games until 1919. His career began in 1914. He lost five years of at bats. The power numbers didn't come in until 1919. Just think, if he didn' pitch for five years how many homeruns would he have hit?

He hit 694 home runs from 1919-1935. That's an average of roughly 40+ a year. I'm almost certain Ruth would have hit over 800 home runs. That's remarkable because players didn't have big home run numbers during that time period.

Ruth was a freakish athlete, whether he was on the mound or in the batters box. Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time, and there isn't a doubt in my mind...

And that's the bottom line, because Beckue said so.

 

[Big Sexy]

I am gonna stick up for Blue Cardinal at the moment. What makes Ruth so good is his power.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

When he was hitting fifty homeruns, the second best power hitter was hitting like five.

Not really. In 1922 two players had more home runs then Ruth. In 1923 Cy Williams equaled his total. In 1925 there were at least two players with more home runs. In 1930 Hack Wilson hit more homers. In 1931 Lou Gehrig equaled his total. After 1931 Ruth never led the majors in homers. It's a common misconception that Ruth was the only power hitter during that time. Was he the best power hitter during that time? Of course, it's not even close, but he wasn't the only one hitting for power.

His career began in 1914. He lost five years of at bats. The power numbers didn't come in until 1919. Just think, if he didn' pitch for five years how many homeruns would he have hit?

If he didn't pitch for 5 years then he would have been playing in a lot more games, getting a lot more at bats, and his body would have broken down quicker. He may have hit a few more but that is very debatable. Ruth never took care of his body and it cost him.

Ruth was a freakish athlete, whether he was on the mound or in the batters box. Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time, and there isn't a doubt in my mind...

Freakish athlete? Really? He was a big dude who hit for power but outside of his strength nothing about the man was particularly athletic. He never met a hot dog or beer he didn't like. Michael Jordan is certainly a better athlete then Ruth.

One thing I haven't brought up yet, That year he was in AA the Bulls still made the playoffs and lost in the second round. I'm just pointing this out to show that the team of "scrubs" that he had around him wasn't as bad as it was made out to be earlier in the thread.

They weren't scrubs but they weren't good by any means outside of Scottie and Horace Grant. Pippen played out of his mind for the 93-94 season and they had a little success but they really felt Jordan's loss the next year in the 94-95 season when Grant was gone as well. At one point in March they were 31-31. Thank god Jordan came back for the last month of the season or else they may have missed the playoffs. They finished a strong 13-4 with MJ to end the season.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.


Not really. In 1922 two players had more home runs then Ruth. In 1923 Cy Williams equaled his total. In 1925 there were at least two players with more home runs. In 1930 Hack Wilson hit more homers. In 1931 Lou Gehrig equaled his total. After 1931 Ruth never led the majors in homers. It's a common misconception that Ruth was the only power hitter during that time. Was he the best power hitter during that time? Of course, it's not even close, but he wasn't the only one hitting for power.

But you fail to mention that he hit more homeruns than entire teams. That's just amazing. To single handedly be better than an entire team in the stat box leaves me at a loss for words.

If he didn't pitch for 5 years then he would have been playing in a lot more games, getting a lot more at bats, and his body would have broken down quicker. He may have hit a few more but that is very debatable. Ruth never took care of his body and it cost him.

It's debatable that he would have broken down because pitching can put a harder strain on the body than playing the outfield too. Ruth was really only out of shape towards the very end of his career, it's just what everyone remembers him by. That pudgy old school ball player that was a man's man and drank beer and ate hot dogs.

Freakish athlete? Really? He was a big dude who hit for power but outside of his strength nothing about the man was particularly athletic. He never met a hot dog or beer he didn't like. Michael Jordan is certainly a better athlete then Ruth.

Yet he still is the greatest athlete of all time, which is debateble, but that's the thing. Even with his bad habits he's still in the conversation for the greatest athlete of all time.

They weren't scrubs but they weren't good by any means outside of Scottie and Horace Grant. Pippen played out of his mind for the 93-94 season and they had a little success but they really felt Jordan's loss the next year in the 94-95 season when Grant was gone as well. At one point in March they were 31-31. Thank god Jordan came back for the last month of the season or else they may have missed the playoffs. They finished a strong 13-4 with MJ to end the season.

But a Pippen lead Bulls made the playoffs without MJ. It's been made to seem as if that team was all him when it really wasn't.

 

[Big Sexy]

But you fail to mention that he hit more homeruns than entire teams. That's just amazing. To single handedly be better than an entire team in the stat box leaves me at a loss for words.

Well obviously he wasn't the only one to do that because I've shown other players had great power years during that same time period. Hack Wilson hit 56 in 1930 which was more then at least one whole team. Jimmie Foxx hit 58 in 1932. I'm not taking anything away from Ruth just saying he had some company.

It's debatable that he would have broken down because pitching can put a harder strain on the body than playing the outfield too. Ruth was really only out of shape towards the very end of his career, it's just what everyone remembers him by. That pudgy old school ball player that was a man's man and drank beer and ate hot dogs.

Playing every single day is definitely harder then pitching every few games. The amount of games played would have added up quickly. Even though Ruth got really out of shape towards the end of his career he was never really a great physical specimen at any point.

Yet he still is the greatest athlete of all time, which is debateble, but that's the thing. Even with his bad habits he's still in the conversation for the greatest athlete of all time.

In the conversation but certainly not the best.

But a Pippen lead Bulls made the playoffs without MJ. It's been made to seem as if that team was all him when it really wasn't.

No one said that. I don't know who made the post but I believe the exact quote was along the lines of "the team was all scrubs outside of Pippen." That isn't that far-fetched of a statement. Horace Grant was solid as well but nothing spectacular. After MJ, Pippen, and Grant their best player pre 95-96 was BJ fucking Armstrong.

With Jordan they won 6 titles. Without him they lost in the second round and then could have easily missed the playoffs entirely had he not come back.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Well obviously he wasn't the only one to do that because I've shown other players had great power years during that same time period. Hack Wilson hit 56 in 1930 which was more then at least one whole team. Jimmie Foxx hit 58 in 1932. I'm not taking anything away from Ruth just saying he had some company.

But he was doing for ten years prior to that. The Yanks won all those rings in the 20's and people took notice, it's how teams are built today.

Playing every single day is definitely harder then pitching every few games. The amount of games played would have added up quickly. Even though Ruth got really out of shape towards the end of his career he was never really a great physical specimen at any point.

Today maybe, but back then he pitched over 300 innings a year. He started about 40 games before he switched to the outfield. He's also listed at 6'2" 215lbs. That's not really out of shape.

In the conversation but certainly not the best.

I disagree.

No one said that. I don't know who made the post but I believe the exact quote was along the lines of "the team was all scrubs outside of Pippen." That isn't that far-fetched of a statement. Horace Grant was solid as well but nothing spectacular. After MJ, Pippen, and Grant their best player pre 95-96 was BJ fucking Armstrong.

With Jordan they won 6 titles. Without him they lost in the second round and then could have easily missed the playoffs entirely had he not come back.

But they made the playoffs without him, it's not like they fell flat on their face. Dure any team is going to miss their best player, no less someone like MJ, but I was just proving a point. An it's proven.

 

[Big Sexy]

But he was doing for ten years prior to that. The Yanks won all those rings in the 20's and people took notice, it's how teams are built today.

Teams didn't just look at Babe Ruth hitting for power and say "oh shit, lets tell our players to hit home runs." Most teams just didn't have players that were capable of hitting home runs. Like I said the average player size back then was around 5'9 170 pounds. Another thing that has not been brought up at all was the changes baseball made in 1920. They changed the way the balls were manufactured making them more lively. They also banned spitballs, made it so dirty/worn baseballs would be replaced, and they shrank the size of the outfields.

The rule changes more then anything is what changed teams to more power oriented. Babe Ruth was just one of the few and the most talented of the guys that were able to take advantage at first.

Today maybe, but back then he pitched over 300 innings a year. He started about 40 games before he switched to the outfield. He's also listed at 6'2" 215lbs. That's not really out of shape.

He only pitched over 300 innings two years. In 2 of his 5 seasons as a full starter he was well under 200 innings pitched. It's still less wear and tear then an everyday player. Babe Ruth early in his career may not have been out of shape but he wasn't exactly in shape either.

I disagree.

You're entitled to be wrong.

But they made the playoffs without him, it's not like they fell flat on their face. Dure any team is going to miss their best player, no less someone like MJ, but I was just proving a point. An it's proven.

You proved that they went from the best team in the NBA coming off a three peat to a decent little playoff team that no one thought really had a chance to win anything of significance. Congratulations. And the second year without him they were on the brink of falling flat on their face until he made his comeback.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Teams didn't just look at Babe Ruth hitting for power and say "oh shit, lets tell our players to hit home runs." Most teams just didn't have players that were capable of hitting home runs. Like I said the average player size back then was around 5'9 170 pounds. Another thing that has not been brought up at all was the changes baseball made in 1920. They changed the way the balls were manufactured making them more lively. They also banned spitballs, made it so dirty/worn baseballs would be replaced, and they shrank the size of the outfields.

It hasn't been brought up because they are still rules we have today, and Ruth is still the best. This is with all the athletes getting bigger, faster, and stronger.

The rule changes more then anything is what changed teams to more power oriented. Babe Ruth was just one of the few and the most talented of the guys that were able to take advantage at first.

It helped, yes.

He only pitched over 300 innings two years. In 2 of his 5 seasons as a full starter he was well under 200 innings pitched. It's still less wear and tear then an everyday player. Babe Ruth early in his career may not have been out of shape but he wasn't exactly in shape either.

Then why are pitcher the ones that get more surgerys? Like I said, it's comparable, so you really don't have much of an arguement against this. Ruth was also not in bad shape, 6'2" 215lbs is not in bad shape.

You're entitled to be wrong.

Except I'm not.

You proved that they went from the best team in the NBA coming off a three peat to a decent little playoff team that no one thought really had a chance to win anything of significance. Congratulations. And the second year without him they were on the brink of falling flat on their face until he made his comeback.

So having MJ gave them 14 wins? Is that the number you said? Not trying to say MJ wasn't great but his team didn't die when he left to "play" baseball.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I have to say that I expect Ali to be a very popular pick. In fact I would have picked him. The man is an undeniable legend. He was one of the, if not THE, most entertaining showman in sports history. Ali fought in the Heavyweight Division's heyday and he beat everyone. He even came out of exile to defeat the previously undefeated Heavyweight Champion George Foreman in a little fight called; The Rumble in the Jungle. Ali is the subject of two feature films. An Academy Award Winning Documentary called When We Were Kings and an Academy Award nominated Biopic, Starring Will Smith, entitled Ali.

Ali's influence on the sporting world of today is equal to no man. Ali has inspired thousands, if not millions around the world to be the best at what they do. However, my opinion is highly biased. Living in the United Kingdom, Basketball is a small sport here. I know very little about it. I am aware of some of the team names and some of the players. Most notably Michael Jordan. In his own right, Jordan is supposedly the greatest to ever play basketball. He in fact even had a Looney Toons film which featured him in the starring role alongside Bugs Bunny & Daffy Duck. Jordan is clearly up there with the greats.

The we come to Babe Ruth. I know absolutely NOTHING about Baseball apart from the fact that Babe Ruth is a legend. Whenever I turn on to watch Raw, it seems Jerry Lawler's favourite references are about Babe Ruth. I've heard him be called the greatest in his sport and I can't argue against that. Ruth clearly has a great influence in his own right.

Take My Opinion With a Grain of Salt (Which I Assume You Were Going to Do Anyway) as I have no real right to discredit Jordan or Ruth. But I would have picked Mohammed Ali.

 

[BooCocky]

This got me thinking. Ali isn't even the greatest boxer of all time, how in the hell could he be considered the greatest athlete of all time?

Joe Louis is considered the greatest boxer of all time and "Sugar" Ray Robinson is arguably the best pound for pound fighter of all time. Louis had one legitimate lost and he avenged it later with a first round knockout. Robinson had 173 wins, in two weight classes. Only lost 19 times and won 103 of those fights by knockout.

Ali can't be considered the greatest athlete of all time because hes not even the greatest boxer of all time...

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

It's still doesn't make either a better athlete.

You brought up Peyton Manning and his Commercials, I was simply pointing out that Manning wouldn’t have those same opportunities f It wasn’t for Jordan’s greatness. Being the better athlete does get you the endorsements, a company like Nike and Gatorade don’t just get any athlete for their commercials, they get the best of the best.

But he's not, he didn't do it by himself. Magic and Bird got the ball rolling and MJ picked it up. One thing I haven't brought up yet, That year he was in AA the Bulls still made the playoffs and lost in the second round. I'm just pointing this out to show that the team of "scrubs" that he had around him wasn't as bad as it was made out to be earlier in the thread.

You don’t play to have a good season, or to just make the playoffs. The sole purpose and goal of being a professional athlete, in any sport, is to win a Championship. That team never won a Championship without Jordan.

I also never referred to the rest of Jordan’s team mates as a “bunch of scrubs”, but there is no doubt that Jordan made that team.

Jordan and the Bulls win three NBA titles in a row.

Jordan retires and the bulls struggle to even make the playoffs.

Jordan returns and they win three more NBA championships in a row.

So clearly Jordan had quite the impact and the Chicago Bulls, and they weren’t nearly the same team without him, and they may as well of been a “bunch of scrubs” because they weren’t going to even sniff the NBA finals without Jordan on their team,

No sir. In baseball Ruth is a God. Ruth's effects on baseball are still felt to this day. Aaron breaking his all time record and the hardships he had to endure during that, Maris when he was chasing the single season HR record, the Curse of the Bambino. Ruth is still a huge part of what baseball is. Jordan might have made the NBA a few more dollars, but that's not really game related.

Jordan making the NBA a few more dollars, that’s one of the many, many things Jordan did for the game of basketball. Jordan turned the sport into a worldwide phenomenon, because of his athletic greatness. As I’ve proven with the multiple advertising campaigns and mainstream movies and commercials. It was Jordan who popularized the game of Basketball and brought it to the worldwide level of competition it’s at today.

Ruth, who played against watered down competition, ended up losing his most famous record to an African American, one of the same minorities that was banned from playing baseball when Ruth played. Proving that the lack of African American and Hispanic competition played a part on Ruth’s overall numbers, and the fact that his records where taken down by the very players he didn’t compete against speaks volumes to the significance of not competing against other minority players.

I am gonna stick up for Blue Cardinal at the moment. What makes Ruth so good is his power. When he was hitting fifty homeruns, the second best power hitter was hitting like five. He was a freak for his time. He was probably one of the better pitchers of his time but they realized they couldn't take his bat out of the lineup. He didn't play more than 100 games until 1919. His career began in 1914. He lost five years of at bats. The power numbers didn't come in until 1919. Just think, if he didn' pitch for five years how many homeruns would he have hit?

As Big Sexy pointed out there where other power hitters doing the same thing as Ruth at the time, maybe not to the volume every single year, but in no way was he the only one hitting more than five home runs.

It also speaks to the lack of competition at the time, the fact that such a limited number of players where even capable of hitting home runs at the time and the fact that he wasn’t playing against all the best competition takes away from the overall success of the Babe. Where as a guy like Hank Aaron, who played against the best possible competition, had to deal with racial issues and still managed to break the home run record of Babe Ruth puts him right into the conversation for the best all time baseball player. As well as the fact that Barry Bonds, another African American, broke the Babes home run record, showing that not playing against African American competition did have an effect on Ruth’s overall numbers.

He hit 694 home runs from 1919-1935. That's an average of roughly 40+ a year. I'm almost certain Ruth would have hit over 800 home runs. That's remarkable because players didn't have big home run numbers during that time period.

The fact that Ruth was a pitcher is part of Blues argument for him being the greatest off all time, so if we take pitching out of the equation it just takes away from Ruth’s overall athletic abilities.

Ruth was a freakish athlete, whether he was on the mound or in the batters box. Ruth is the greatest athlete of all time, and there isn't a doubt in my mind...

Freakish? Because he was simply a bigger than his competition?

If Ruth can’t be unanimously considered the best Baseball player of all time, how can he be considered the greatest athlete of all time? Especially when he was one of the least athletic ball players ever, and he is known for being out of shape.

While Ruth may have been the greatest slugger of all time, it’s debatable if he’s even the best ballplayer. There’s a list of players who are better overall athletes in baseball, Ruth was known for home runs, and that’s it. Guys like Willey Mays an Hank Aaron hit for power and played outstanding defense, as well as having the ability to steal bases, making them overall better athletes.

A guy like Jordan, is not just known for being a great scorer, but is also known to be one of the top two defensive players of all time as well, because doing just one thing well doesn’t make you a great athlete, it’s a multitude of things that add to the equation, and simply swinging a stick and hitting homeruns isn’t going to get the athletic job done in this competition.

And that's the bottom line, because Beckue said so.

Clearly it’s not the bottom line.

Ruth is the last guy to get taken for any sport other than Baseball, his athletic abilities don’t transcend to other sports, or even other areas of his own sport; where Jordan was the best at every area of his sport when he played, and is considered without a doubt to be the greatest basketball player who ever lived. Plus he too even dabbled In the sport of Baseball, after not playing the game for nearly twenty years, which just goes to show hoe great of an overall athlete Jordan was.

 

[Big Sexy]

It hasn't been brought up because they are still rules we have today, and Ruth is still the best. This is with all the athletes getting bigger, faster, and stronger.

He is arguably the best baseball player of all time but there a couple things that go into this.

1. Babe Ruth was physically superior to basically everyone that played in MLB at that time. I'll bring this up again, the average player then was around 5'9 170. Ruth had 5 inches and over 40 pounds on the average player back then. Even other power hitters weren't as big. Jimmie Foxx was one of the better power guys around that time and even he was only 6'0 195 pounds.

2. Ruth didn't play against the best competition always. There were no African American players, and no Latino players. There was tons of talent out there that he avoided. It's not his fault but something that is definitely a negative towards some of his achievements.

Then why are pitcher the ones that get more surgerys? Like I said, it's comparable, so you really don't have much of an arguement against this. Ruth was also not in bad shape, 6'2" 215lbs is not in bad shape.

Yea, you're wrong on this. Pitchers get injuries to their arms, shoulders, and elbows for the most part. That is the one part of their body that really breaks down. An everyday player can have more injury types and wears their body down a lot more. Pitchers don't really wear down their entire bodies they just fuck up their arms. Ruth only pitching for a few years was able to avoid those injuries while really only playing half seasons and avoiding the wear and tear on his body. That is why you often see pitchers still playing into their 40's and doing it at a fairly high level. It's rare to see a position player still playing great once they get into their 40's.

As far as the shape Ruth was in he was never in particularly good shape. he was about average during his prime years and then was in bad shape for his later years.

Except I'm not.

Very very debatable.

So having MJ gave them 14 wins? Is that the number you said? Not trying to say MJ wasn't great but his team didn't die when he left to "play" baseball.

I said that the Bulls were only 34-31 before MJ came back in the 94-95 season. they finished that season 13-4 with him and went from the edge of the playoffs all the way up to the 5 seed. I never said the team died but it took a huge hit. Going from the best team in the entire NBA to just a solid team in a weak Eastern Conference is definitely a drop.

 

[a0161613]

Jordan did it for Basketball, and he took it places that it had never been before. Jordan made Basketball a worldwide phenomenon and is responsible for the product you see today.

A point I intend in coming back to for its sheer wrongness.

Name value is something Jordan has more of than Ruth and Ali.

His name and logo are all over every the place, and his shoes have created a world wide phenomenon within the clothing industry. Name value is never a bad thing.

Very disputable. And also irrelevant. Muhammed Ali has more name value than any boxer, regardless of the ound for pound argument.

The only problem is Babe Ruth DID NOT dominate his sport more so then any other all time great dominated theirs. Jordan dominated basketball the same if not more. Gretzky dominated hockey the same if not more. So that argument is completely null and void and you're in a little trouble if that's all you got.

Gretzky and Jordan had very little competition from other great teams. Muhammed Ali dominated his opposition, did it around the world and did it multiple times (when it comes to facing Foreman and Frazier)

Baseball is a sport built upon statistics and the ever changing importance of one statistic to the next. Does batting .342 and averaging 42 bombs a season really make him the greatest athlete of all time? Let's not forget that Ruth didn't even compete against African American or Latino competition, both of which make up some of the better baseball athletes of all time.

A sport based on stats. Sounds enthralling. Cricket gets a lot of shit for being boring but baseball takes it for me.

No, but it certainly helps. Ruth is known for baseball, but baseball isn't even in the top 3 for world sports, where as Basketball is only behind soccer as far as world sports go, and Jordan had a huge part in making Basketball the #2 most recognizable sport in the world.

Baseball is barely in the top three in the US. Around the world it is not even in the top ten.

Basketball may be the second most recogisable sport but what does being a recognisable sport means.

Neither of these are mainstream sports outside of the US. And so, Jordan and Ruth's place is this debate is rightly subject to debate.

Michael Johnson would probably make my top five greatest athletes of all time, but he was simply a track and field competitor, and the Olympics where pretty much his main competition. Where as Jordan was able to win NBA Championships as well as win Olympic Gold Medals.

Olympics Basketball is irrelevant, especially when they can pretty much call upon a Dream Team. Just like in 1992, when Jordan was one of many famous names.

I think you are going to struggle here with Ali, Numbers. SRR, Wille Pep, Henry Armstrong and Archie Moore are all widely considered P4P better than Ali, also Joe Louis is more widely considered as the best HW of all time.

P4P makes boxing a tough pick. But I stand by it. Ali is the most famous boxer of all time, by quite some way.

All of the choices are legit, but I'm going to have to say Michael Jordan would be the best choice in my mind. Not only was he an incredible athlete, but he also had the best work ethic and completely dominated the mental game, which really set him apart.

He led completely mediocre (apart from Pippen) teams to six titles, which included a hiatus of a couple years just for the hell of it. Just look at how he ended his career in the 98 finals (The Wizards crap doesn't count). Lay up, steal from Malone on the other end, jumper to win it. And that was at the very end of his career. He was a monster.

I know very little of these sports but I know the Bulls were not a one man team.

Ruth may have name recognition, but Jordan's name is much more recognizable world wide.

But Ali is more famous than both of them.

Popularity definitely attests to an athletes success, the more successful the athlete the more popular they're going to be. Especially when the athlete is competing on a world wide stage like Jordan, and while these things don't make you the greatest athlete, they certainly help.

Babe Ruth had no affect outside the US. Baseball did not become a worldwide sport off the back of his success.

Jordan did a little more. But still very little.

Baseball and Basketball make a mockery of their "World titles".

Muhammed Ali not only took his sport around the world, he took it to Africa and Asia to massive fanfare and success.

It's because of the success Jordan had on the worldwide stage that helped to launch Basketball into the juggernaut it has become today.

Juggernaut? HA! Again, if I am not making this clear, Basketball is a minority sport outside of the US

It was definitely an advantage for Jordan, while I'll give you Ruth standing the test of time, Jordan took advantage of the media like no one else, and is arguably the most marketed athlete of all time.

Not of all time, given that sponsorships have evolved into a monster. MJ was at the forefront of that thanks to Nike. But for every slam dunk picture of him, this picture of Ali standing over his downed opponent is one of the most famous sporting images of all time.

He was still an amateur at the time. One of only 3 player ever to win 2 gold medals, one as an amateur an one as a pro.

Not a huge achievement in basketball.

Jordan had the world famous Spike Lee Air Jordan Commercials as well as staring in Space Jam which grossed over 230 million world wide. All of these things where because of Jordan's success and domination of the game, and this is why he is credited with bringing basketball to the worldwide success that it is today.

I love Space Jam but I'll take your word on the commercials.

In terms of skill in their sport, I would accept Babe Ruth into this argument but his athletic ability leaves a lot to be desired.

A true athlete, has everything. Speed, fitness, agility, skill, power. The nature of baseball means that he is seriously not a candidate for being the greatest athlete ever.

I see that worldwide success is being touted as a big factor. Ali dominates both guys here and I fail to see anyone, any boxer, baseball or basketball players who can make an argument otherwise.

Again, the P4P argument will be recurrent but I see that as a poor argument because of the comparison between sports. Joe Louis had an amazing effect because of his win/loss ratio and for the time he was fighting, he paved the way for Ali as a black fighter. Same with Sugar Ray Robinson, what had happened before Ali's time, paved the way for him to be so successful and for race not to be such a huge roadblock for him.

We are comparing many factors here and like I've said, Ali pisses over everyone in terms of being so well known around the world. His success in the ring makes him worthy as well.

He is the greatest personality in any sport and as an athlete, there has been no boxer in recent years who can compare to his style, influence and ability.