{Merged} Kobashi / Luther Aftermath Thread

[Slyfox696]

Lol yeah I know I did realize he was on both lists, but the Vader of Japan is a MUCH bigger win than the Vader of the WWF in 1996. Vader was a bit of a joke in the WWF. In Japan he was the motherfuckin' legend killer who destroyed the likes of Antonio Inoki and Stan Hansen while his eyeball popped out of his head and he just shoved it back in.

Vader in Japan was a much bigger deal and a much bigger win than the Vader of the WWF.

Thanks for that post. I'll need it in my post on why HBK is going over Kobashi.

 

[Razor]

You're forgetting John Cena!

 

[klunderbunker]

You have GOT to be kidding me KB. Kobashi is arguably the greatest underdog ever. He made a career off of it. It's how he rose to fame. He was the upset kid who made a name for himself rising from the ranks of a jobber to a multiple World Champion and pulling wins over some of the biggest names in Japanese wrestling history from Jumbo Tsuruta to Stan Hansen to Genichiro Tenryu.

Same, just switch Kobashi to Shawn, Japanese to World, Jumbo to Bret Hart, Stan Hansen to HHH and Genichiro Tenryu to Ric Flair.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Did he just compare HHH to Stan Hansen? I think he did.

 

[klunderbunker]

Not entirely. Wasn't going person for person, just three big names that Shawn has beaten in big matches.

 

[Slyfox696]

In terms of importance to wrestling, I'd argue that Triple H probably surpasses Hansen.

 

[X]

Yes, he does hold the world record for burying talent.

And HBK is not even half the underdog that Kobashi was KB. This is what I mean about people arguing for HBK without knowing very much of anything about Kobashi. The man is a far better underdog who's pulled off far bigger upsets than HBK ever has.

That, and he's beaten a more impressive list of opponents.

And Sly, how is Kobashi beating a much better Vader than the one HBK beat help your argument?

 

[X]

Nevermind, we're getting back into arguing the whole thing again. I've already outlined all the reasons Kobashi should have went over HBK in the actual thread.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Nevermind, we're getting back into arguing the whole thing again. I've already outlined all the reasons Kobashi should have went over HBK in the actual thread.

Don't worry, man, we still got the WZ Tournament. I'll get back to work on the Puro thread for Kobashi, and we can push him to the Final Four.

 

[X]

Same, just switch Kobashi to Shawn, Japanese to World, Jumbo to Bret Hart, Stan Hansen to HHH and Genichiro Tenryu to Ric Flair.

Lovely how you leave out the biggest names I mentioned, such as Baba and Misawa.

 

[klunderbunker]

You have GOT to be kidding me KB. Kobashi is arguably the greatest underdog ever. He made a career off of it. It's how he rose to fame. He was the upset kid who made a name for himself rising from the ranks of a jobber to a multiple World Champion and pulling wins over some of the biggest names in Japanese wrestling history from Jumbo Tsuruta to Stan Hansen to Genichiro Tenryu.

Going off this, not the big list.

 

[X]

Like I said, a list of defeated opponents including the likes of Baba, Misawa, Jumbo, Tenryu, Kawada, Vader and Hansen is more impressive to me than defeating his best buddy Triple H, a 20-years-past-his-prime Ric Flair, a neutered Vader and Bret Hart.

 

[klunderbunker]

Throw in Nash, Owen Hart, revolutionizing wrestling in the ladder match, Taker on more than one occasion and Davey Boy Smith in England.

 

[X]

Throw in Nash

Hardly a very impressive win. Who the hell didn't beat Kevin Nash in the 1990s?

Owen Hart

You're comparing Kevin Nash and Owen Hart to the names I just mentioned? Surely you must be kidding.

revolutionizing wrestling in the ladder match

How did he revolutionize wrestling? Are you kidding me? First off ladder matches have been around since the 70s, second off if anyone revolutionized wrestling with ladders, it was the Hardys and Edge/Christian. I don't consider one splash off of a ladder to be "revolutionizing wrestling", especially when it led to only one other ladder match in the following 4 years after WM X.

Taker on more than one occasion and Davey Boy Smith in England.

When has he EVER beaten Taker clean? He needed the help of Kane, more than once, as well as DX. Whenever they fought one-on-one without interference, Taker won. Like last year.

Davey Boy Smith I'll give you, but again, he's not even half of the name that Baba/Misawa/Jumbo are.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Just for fun, I'm going to run down a list of some of the biggest names that both HBK and Kobashi have defeated. I realize it's over now and HBK has won, but I'm bored, so sue me.

HBK
Bret Hart
Razor Ramon
Triple H
Chris Benoit
Vader
Ric Flair
Curt Hennig
Chris Jericho
Kurt Angle

Kobashi
Giant Baba
Jumbo Tsuruta
Genichiro Tenryu
Stan Hansen
Dr. Death Steve Williams
Mitsuharu Misawa
Toshiaki Kawada
Vader
Jun Akiyama
Kensuke Sasaki
Terry Gordy
Akira Taue
Naomichi Marufuji
Terry Funk
Dory Funk
Samoa Joe


Looks pretty even to me. In fact I'd give Kobashi the edge. I can't think of anyone HBK has defeated that could stack up to a man who's beaten Baba, Jumbo, Misawa, Vader, and the Funk brothers.

This is as much a testament to the freedom of Japanese wrestlers to wrestle outside of the company as it is a testament to ability. HBK is only allowed to wrestle WWE guys. And, you left the Undertaker off of HBK's list. He has beaten him in a cell, which trumps anyone Kobashi has beaten.

 

[klunderbunker]

How did he revolutionize wrestling? Are you kidding me? First off ladder matches have been around since the 70s, second off if anyone revolutionized wrestling with ladders, it was the Hardys and Edge/Christian. I don't consider one splash off of a ladder to be "revolutionizing wrestling", especially when it led to only one other ladder match in the following 4 years after WM X.

And you say we know nothing about wrestling. Wow.

When has he EVER beaten Taker clean? He needed the help of Kane, more than once, as well as DX. Whenever they fought one-on-one without interference, Taker won. Like last year.

And a win is a win, period.

Davey Boy Smith I'll give you, but again, he's not even half of the name that Baba/Misawa/Jumbo are.

In England he's as big as they are in Japan. SS 92. 80,000 people exploded.

 

[klunderbunker]

Oh and throw in Foley.

 

[X]

This is as much a testament to the freedom of Japanese wrestlers to wrestle outside of the company as it is a testament to ability. HBK is only allowed to wrestle WWE guys. And, you left the Undertaker off of HBK's list. He has beaten him in a cell, which trumps anyone Kobashi has beaten.

Please, he needed the help of Kane and DX to beat Taker in the cell. Hardly a clean victory. Every victory I just named for Kobashi is a CLEAN win. Not cheating, which is the ONLY way that HBK has ever defeated the Undertaker. By cheating.

And it's still not as impressive as defeating Misawa/Baba/etc clean on numerous occasions.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

This is as much a testament to the freedom of Japanese wrestlers to wrestle outside of the company as it is a testament to ability. HBK is only allowed to wrestle WWE guys. And, you left the Undertaker off of HBK's list. He has beaten him in a cell, which trumps anyone Kobashi has beaten.

Are you fucking serious?!?!?! The only thing their match at Badd Blood has over any Kobashi match is a blade job. Hell, every single match we posted in their Iron Man was more intense than this particular match.

 

[X]

And you say we know nothing about wrestling. Wow.

And when did I say that? Sure didn't. But you know, nice way to deflect actually having to address the valid point I just made.

This bullshit about HBK "revolutionizing" wrestling with the ladder match? It's just that---bullshit. What changed KB? What? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They had a rematch a year and a half later, and that was it until the Attitude Era for ladder matches. The ladder match became completely irrelevant after HBK/Razor again and didn't become what it is now until the Hardys and E/C revolutionized the ladder match as the modern spotfests we know them as.

Go on, explain to me how HBK revolutionized wrestling with a ladder match. Such drivel, the fuck did he revolutionize? Losing in a ladder match?

And a win is a win, period.

BULLSHIT, and you know it KB, I've seen you criticize people getting dirty wins a million god damn times as not being the proper way to put someone over. Every win is not the same, and if you think that's true, you're just being stubborn. Unless you want to tell me that Vince McMahon's 1999 Rumble win was just as hard-fought and impressive as Ric Flair's Rumble win in 92.

In England he's as big as they are in Japan. SS 92. 80,000 people exploded.

Yes. And that was against Bret Hart. Not Shawn Michaels. If you're going to sit here and tell me Bulldog had even half of the impact on the wrestling business that Giant Baba did, I'm going to laugh at you until my windpipes explode and I die on your front porch from laughing-cancer.

 

[klunderbunker]

This bullshit about HBK "revolutionizing" wrestling with the ladder match? It's just that---bullshit. What changed KB? What? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They had a rematch a year and a half later, and that was it until the Attitude Era for ladder matches. The ladder match became completely irrelevant after HBK/Razor again and didn't become what it is now until the Hardys and E/C revolutionized the ladder match as the modern spotfests we know them as.

Oh geez, let's see. We go from guys like Hogan with his boring as hell matches to stuff like this: fast paced more intense style. After this match, guys like Bret and Shawn and Owen are pushed to the front of the company rather than big muscle heads. The match was something no one had ever seen before and it blew away anything else likely in that decade.

BULLSHIT, and you know it KB, I've seen you criticize people getting dirty wins a million god damn times as not being the proper way to put someone over. Every win is not the same, and if you think that's true, you're just being stubborn. Unless you want to tell me that Vince McMahon's 1999 Rumble win was just as hard-fought and impressive as Ric Flair's Rumble win in 92.

Oh ok then. So in other words Kobashi meant nothing for a long time since he lost 63 matches in a row to start his career. he won rookie of the year anyway, but winning means nothing? Got it.

Vince won the Rumble, Flair won the Rumble. They won. That's the important aspect.

Yes. And that was against Bret Hart. Not Shawn Michaels. If you're going to sit here and tell me Bulldog had even half of the impact on the wrestling business that Giant Baba did, I'm going to laugh at you until my windpipes explode and I die on your front porch from laughing-cancer.

And if you're going to try to sit here and tell me that any of those Japanese guys had half the impact that Shawn had here, in the biggest wrestling country in the world, on the biggest stage of them all, then I'll laugh at you too. They have great matches, yes. They do it where they're worshipped, yes. They do it in front of the biggest stage, nope.

Also, something occurs to me: both of us are arguing over who was booked to win matches. That's rather absurd.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

And if you're going to try to sit here and tell me that any of those Japanese guys had half the impact that Shawn had here, in the biggest wrestling country in the world, on the biggest stage of them all, then I'll laugh at you too. They have great matches, yes. They do it where they're worshipped, yes. They do it in front of the biggest stage, nope.

...Kobashi has had a greater overall impact on wrestling than Shawn Michaels. Are you trying to say that there weren't as many fans in Japan as there were in America during Kobashi's prime? Because, if we go by statistics, this is definitely not the case. Japan may only have 2/3s the population of the US, but they have a greater percentage of wrestling fans, which makes things, for all intents and purposes, a wash.

 

[klunderbunker]

No, not really.

If one out of two people are wrestling fans, that's still far less popular than 500,000 out of 1,000,001

Also, it's wrestling. Not something you can apply math or statistics too. Yes I get the hypocrisy of this, and no Shawn wasn't as big if you go by the countries they were in, but more people saw him and more people know who he is.

 

[X]

Oh geez, let's see. We go from guys like Hogan with his boring as hell matches to stuff like this: fast paced more intense style. After this match, guys like Bret and Shawn and Owen are pushed to the front of the company rather than big muscle heads. The match was something no one had ever seen before and it blew away anything else likely in that decade.

Yeah, because fast-paced matches never happened before the ladder match, right? Are you joking dude? Fuck the opening match on that card of Bret vs. Owen was as fast-paced and as exciting of an in-ring match as you could ask for.

And nevermind guys like Flair, Steamboat, Funk, etc who had been working exciting matches for years before this, or nevermind Pillman and Liger practically inventing cruiserweight wrestling in the US years before the ladder match, no, it was THAT match that revolutionized wrestling? You must be shitting me. Exciting fast paced matches had been around long before, and long after.

And Owen was pushed to the head of the company? No he wasn't, he had his one run in 94 and then he was mired in midcard hell for the rest of his career. Bret was already a World Champion before that ladder match and was already being pushed as the top face in the company, and it still took HBK another 2 years to win a World Title.

Dude, I love that match too, but holy fuck are you overstating it's importance. It was a great match, and that was it. It had no lasting impact other than proving to Vince that people would like future ladder matches. It did absolutely nothing to "revolutionize wrestling".

Oh ok then. So in other words Kobashi meant nothing for a long time since he lost 63 matches in a row to start his career. he won rookie of the year anyway, but winning means nothing? Got it.

How did you in any way come up with THAT from what I just said? Have you been dipping into my stash again?

Again, you're SERIOUSLY arguing that every win is just as impressive and valuable as the next, so long as they win? I know for a fact you don't believe that's true. I mean that's just absolutely absurd.

Vince won the Rumble, Flair won the Rumble. They won. That's the important aspect.

Good thing this isn't a "Who beat Taker in a HIAC with the help of Kane?" tournament then. It's a match up to determine who would win in a one-on-one Ironman match, and that is without a doubt Kobashi. Kobashi has wrestled in more 60 minute matches than HBK could imagine. He has more endurance, has defeated more impressive opponents, he's more resilient, and there's just no way that HBK could keep him down for an hour.

Seriously, how can you bring up his win in the HIAC against Taker? That's such a terrible point to argue. The ONLY reason that HBK won that match is because of Kane's interference, before that the match was 100% HBK being fucking destroyed by 'Taker. Guess what? Kane isn't going to be here to interefere and help HBK. So how is that win relevant at all?

And if you're going to try to sit here and tell me that any of those Japanese guys had half the impact that Shawn had here, in the biggest wrestling country in the world, on the biggest stage of them all, then I'll laugh at you too. They have great matches, yes. They do it where they're worshipped, yes. They do it in front of the biggest stage, nope.

You're dead wrong. Dead wrong. Kobashi/Misawa/Baba/Jumbo haven't had half the impact that HBK has? Are you high on quaaludes? Tell me, did HBK start one of the largest wrestling promotions in history? Nope. Baba did. Did he beat the likes of Andre the Giant, Antonio Inoki, El Santo, Rikidozan? No? Baba did. But right, tell me about how he hasn't had "half" the impact that HBK has. Okay chief, whatever you say, continue riding the crazy train. If Kobashi can defeat Baba, Misawa, Jumbo and beat them all CLEAN, WITHOUT interference like half of HBK's biggest victories have come with, then how in the fuck is Shawn Michaels and his lowly superkick going to put Kobashi down for an hour? Fucking Misawa and Kawada couldn't keep him down for an hour and they're roughly ten times more intense and hard-hitting in their in-ring style.

KB, I love you man, but you're arguing the wrong topic. If we were arguing early 90s WCW, sure man, you'd probably be right because that's your thing. Well, this is my thing, and let me tell you, you are underestimating Kobashi so much it's astounding. You've shown in this thread more than once that you don't know very much about Kobashi aside from he's a Japanese legend, and that's it.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

No, not really.

If one out of two people are wrestling fans, that's still far less popular than 500,000 out of 1,000,001

What does this even mean? Percentage-wise, wrestling is more popular in the first country than in the last, in your example. Let me actually retract my statement about Japan's population, as it's only a little over 40 percent of the US' population. Still, if you have just as many people in Japan going to wrestling shows as in the US (numbers don't lie; there is proof that this was the case throughout the 80s, 90s, and first-half of the 00s), then this means that that a greater percentage of the population in Japan enjoys wrestling.

Also, it's wrestling. Not something you can apply math or statistics too. Yes I get the hypocrisy of this, and no Shawn wasn't as big if you go by the countries they were in, but more people saw him and more people know who he is.

So, you don't think we should use numbers here, but then you say that Michaels has had greater exposure (which means that we are referring to numbers)?