Rd. 1 Ironman - Kenta Kobashi (JAP) vs Shawn Michaels (USA)

[The Underking]

Okay Hypocrite you put in your argument that your guy could draw more I contradicted that while you are just changing what your saying every two minutes while a admit I was wrong in saying i can't judge careers on one match but please check the definition of completely then chuck uneducated. But in actual Olympics’ would you vote for your crappy team or for another great team yeah I'm 99.9 percent sure you will say your tam because they are your team. You prefer to watch Japanese wrestling Im fine with American. I vote and I don't give a damn if my guy would lose it's my preference to vote for.

 

[X]

Okay Hipocrite

What's a hipocrite? Is that something like a hypocrite? This is what I mean man. Do you think you're helping your side of the argument by posting these misspelled-ridden grammatically incorrect rants? You're not, you're only hurting your argument.

you put in your argument that your guy could draw more i contradicted that

You did no such thing. How did you "contradict" that? I mentioned numerous times that Kobashi has headlined shows that have drawn nearly 100,000 people at the Tokyo Dome. Your response was that hypothetically HBK could draw more people in Puerto Rico. How does that in any way validate your opinion?

while you are just changin what your saying evrey two minutes while a admit i was wrong in saying i can't judge careers on onematch but please wheck the definition of completely then chuck unedjucated. but in actual olympic would you vote for your crappy team or for another great team yeah I'm 99.9 percent sure you will say your tam because they are reseprenting your team. You prefer to watch Japenease wrestling im fine with American. I vote and i don't give a damn if my guy would lose it's my prefrence

You know, I'm not even going to finish reading this paragraph. Once I got to the 4th or 5th misspelled word in your first sentence alone, there's really no point in me continuing this discussion with someone who can't even formulate a coherent sentence.

But, yes, your reason of voting for HBK because you like America is just so solid and backed by so much evidence and reasoning, how could one possibly argue that? I mean, that's not a flashing example of ethnocentrism at ALL.

Nevermind, I shouldn't have used a word that large. When you're done googling what it means, feel free to go back and read my other posts in this thread.

 

[The Underking]

God dammit you know what get it through your extra thick skull kid. Im voting for Shawn and so are a couple of other people. Mayber Kobashi win's maybe Shawn but other then the Burning Hammer i never heard of Kobayashi which i checked through Wikipedia while checking Kenta Kobayashi. Also im pretty sure you word meant desicion by ethnic backing maybe it's wrong but it's at least similar.

But hell when you go to the olympic what team do you want to win my answer would be Puerto Rico. If not them why the hell should i not choose USA lot's of our culture comes from them. So you pick yours i pick mine im saying that Kobashi is not one of my favorite wrestler while i have watched Shawn i know him i don't know the other guy im picking the guy i know. Samething with every other type of entertainment.

 

[X]

God dammit you know what get it through your extra thick skull kid.

Not a "kid" thanks, and if anyone here is "thick" it's certainly not me.

Im voting for Shawn and so are a couple of other people. Mayber Kobashi win's maybe Shawn but other then the Burning Hammer which i checked through Wikipedia while checking Kenta Kobayashi.

A) Kenta KOBAYASHI is a different wrestler than Kenta KOBASHI. Kenta KOBAYASHI is much younger and goes by the ring name of "KENTA" and wrestles all over the world today, but he is a very different person and wrestler than Kenta KOBASHI who's been wrestling longer than Kobayashi has been alive.

B) You checked on Kobashi's burning hammer on Wiki? Okay, and? What's your point? He has hundreds of other moves he can use, what about his Burning Hammer?

Also im pretty sure you word meant desicion by ethnic backing maybe it's wrong but it's at least similar.

I see you attempted to Google the word "ethnocentrism", but yes, that's almost a proper definition to the word. It's when you act under the belief that your culture is superior to all others simply because it's yours. Which is exactly what you're doing here. You're voting for HBK because he's from America and you want America to win, plain and simple. Fine, just say that's your reason, don't try and argue with me using reason and logic though because you've already freely admitted you're only voting for HBK because he's American. That's no better than only voting for white people in a tournament because you don't like black people.

But hell when you go to the olympic what team do you want to win my awnser would be Puerto Rico.

This isn't the real Olympics. This is a tournament designed to debate who would win in what category, to determine what nation has produced the greatest crop of professional wrestlers. It has nothing to do with voting for your country, and to vote simply for that reason is foolish.

Of not them why the hell should i not choose USA lot's of our culture comes from them. So you pick yours i pick mine im saying that Kobashi is not one of my favorite wrestler while i have watched Shawn i know him i don't know the other guy im picking the guy i know. Samething with every other type of entertainment.

Okay. So again, WHY are you trying to debate with me right now? You've said several times now your reason for voting for HBK is that he's American and you want America to win. That's fine. Why the fuck are you trying to actually debate the real logistics of the match up with me though?

What are you trying to accomplish here?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Wait one second poster above me your saying that Kobashi is as brutal as the undertaker when all of these people have been saying that it's because Kobashi is heavier is the current argument with stamina. While i did enjoy his matches how much does this guy wrestle i mean Undertaker's like 45 and wrestles a longer schedule then him fact.

Now who would you think put better matches two veterans yet one wrestles once evrey two months while one wrestles evrey other day i think both SHawn and Mark have better stamina.

You never awnsewred my question but like i said im sure that if undertaker's career started in 1990 and his rise started 1995 he could probably still be in better shape. The last 30 minute match Undertaker had him normally i would do what evreybody does and frantically check the internet i remember that Shawn vs. Undertaker was 25 minutes. The TLC match was 29 so that counts or should. Then i noticed a big diffrence WWE shows have more then one people on it Smackdown and Raw try to present evreybody in 5-10 minute matches and the other wrestle Indy's. Also like i stated above you go doing one match evrey 2-3 days at 45 compared to training for a month and preforming one match.

Im not saying that Kobashi is bad. Im just saying the argument with him is sort of flawed saying that he's heavier so that Shawn won't be able to win but then going and saying Kobashi would beat Undertaker evrey single day whose heavier if we use that logic.

Now that I check it Shawn vs. Taker was 31 minutes

What the fuck are you on about here? Have you seen what Kobashi looks like? I mention the weight Kobashi has on Michaels because it's virtually all muscle. Also, just because you're heavier doesn't mean that you can't be faster or have more stamina than a lighter opponent. So, how is my argument flawed exactly?

Also, what's this nonsense about wrestling every other day making you better in the ring than someone who only wrestles once every two months (which is complete and utter bullshit on your part, by the way; in his prime, Kobashi was wrestling matches more intense, grueling, and suspenseful than the one you saw between Michaels and The Undertaker at least twice a week)? If you must be in the ring more often to be better, than Kobashi must be wrestling a shitload off of television, because he's just as good as any other wrestler that I've ever seen, including Michaels and The Undertaker.

 

[jmt225]

Who here has seen a Kobashi match? If you say yes, then you've seen just how hard the man chops.

Now, take a look at Shawn Michaels.

Imagine that scrawny little chest of his taking Kobashi's chops for 30 straight minutes? Christ... the man wouldn't live through it. No way.

Moreover, there's just nothing Shawn could do to put Kobashi down. That Superkick of his would daze Kobashi, but keep him down for the 3 count? Don't think so. I've seen Kobashi get dropped on his head, and kicked in his face more times than I can count, and all those shots were ten times more devastating than HBK's Superkick.

Kobashi wins here via death, and it's not debatable.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I almost voted HBK to spite Xfear to be honest. But the fact is, he's right. Anyone who doesn't vote for Kobashi either has never seen him wrestle, is silly, or is our Global Moderator HBK-Aholic or Becca.

Kobashi is a man among boys in this match and HBK will be punished severely in this match. I would see numerous pinfalls take place and maybe even HBK getting in Sweet Chin Music once. But one pin will not win an ironman match. Kobashi is a master of punishing opponents, wearing them down, then nearly killing them with suplexes. Kobashi by a mile here. Sorry, USA... and Becca. HBK dies in the ring.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

What a great match! Kobashi is the man that beats you to death and then some, with Shawn Michaels being the king of getting beaten to death and then some, only to come back and find a way to win. If this match was a one fall match, I could see HBK going over Kobashi after a hellacious match. However, this is an Ironman match where after that one fall, Kobashi would be able to get up and still kick the crap out of HBK. I don't think at this stage would Michaels be of the right frame of mind nor would he have the stamina to pull off a full flurry of offense for another victory.

Kobashi is too smart and too dangerous to overcome here, so Shawn Michaels falls to Kenta.

 

[Mr. TM]

From a calculation I made, In big matches, Kobashi usually wins around the 28 minute mark. Shawn Michaels around the 31 minute mark. That's averages. So for me, Kobashi wins with two minutes left, Michaels wouldn't get a pin in until a minute after the bell. Kobashi wins.

 

[HeartBreak King]

I think people here are underestimating HBK. I have watched some Kobashi matches, and while he is very good, so is Shawn. Let's not forget too that HBK is one of the most durable and long-lasting wrestlers alive today. And it's not like HBK hasn't face a bigger stronger opponent before. He knows what he needs to do to win matches, and i believe he can get it done against Kobashi. Granted this is all coming from a self-admitted HBK mark, but whatever.

BTW long time reader, but I'm new to posting my actual thoughts. go easy on me!

 

[HBK-aholic]

I think people here are underestimating HBK. I have watched some Kobashi matches, and while he is very good, so is Shawn. Let's not forget too that HBK is one of the most durable and long-lasting wrestlers alive today. And it's not like HBK hasn't face a bigger stronger opponent before. He knows what he needs to do to win matches, and i believe he can get it done against Kobashi. Granted this is all coming from a self-admitted HBK mark, but whatever.

BTW long time reader, but I'm new to posting my actual thoughts. go easy on me!

I like you.

Anyway, I laughed, but wasn't shocked at all when I looked at the scores as they currently stand. The Japan love on this forum is shocking sometimes. Why do people keep referring solwly to the Iron Man match with Bret Hart? Shawn has had many, many great matches with many competitors that have gone 20-30 minutes, as well as the odd 60-minute match, which again, have been good at the very least.

The match wouldn't be easy and no one is suggesting otherwise, but for some of you to write Shawn off so fast is fucking ridiculous. He can work with workers of ANY size, and have a good match with them. He can wrestle for 30 minutes easily, and have a good match. He can take a beating, and still win a match.

Also, what does drawing have to do with this match? I was under the impression this was an iron man match, not a "Blah blah draws the most" vote.

The man has destroyed his body so much over the years from his insanely intense wrestling style and length of matches that it literally hurts the man to fucking move his arms, and yet he STILL goes out and wrestles several times a month.

Oh X, PLEASE tell me this is about Shawn. Because I may actually die laughing if it's not. Shawn couldn't wrestle for 4 years because of a back injury he got wrestling! I don't even know what point you're trying to prove here, that your guy can't move without being in physical pain? Yeah that makes the argument for him seem strong.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I like you.

Anyway, I laughed, but wasn't shocked at all when I looked at the scores as they currently stand. The Japan love on this forum is shocking sometimes. Why do people keep referring solwly to the Iron Man match with Bret Hart? Shawn has had many, many great matches with many competitors that have gone 20-30 minutes, as well as the odd 60-minute match, which again, have been good at the very least.

The match wouldn't be easy and no one is suggesting otherwise, but for some of you to write Shawn off so fast is fucking ridiculous. He can work with workers of ANY size, and have a good match with them. He can wrestle for 30 minutes easily, and have a good match. He can take a beating, and still win a match.

Do you actually have any idea what you yourself are talking about? You've admitted time and time again how ignorant you are when it comes to wrestlers from Japan. Why would you choose to show such ignorance in this WZ event? Do you think the individuals who voted for Kobashi to be on this team and in this event are blind puro marks who just chose him randomly?

The fact of the matter is this: you are choosing to show your ignorance with the wrong wrestler. Shawn Michaels is great, but this doesn't make it necessary that people can't be better than him. In fact, there are plenty of wrestlers better than Shawn Michaels, and Kenta Kobashi is sure as hell one of them. This is just an instance where Michaels gets flat out beat. He doesn't lose because of any flaws he may have in the ring; rather, he loses because Kenta Kobashi is simply the better wrestler, 24/7/365.

Also, what does drawing have to do with this match? I was under the impression this was an iron man match, not a "Blah blah draws the most" vote.

No, you're right, this has nothing to do with drawing. If it did have anything to do with drawing, Michaels getting even a single vote would be laughable.

Oh X, PLEASE tell me this is about Shawn. Because I may actually die laughing if it's not. Shawn couldn't wrestle for 4 years because of a back injury he got wrestling! I don't even know what point you're trying to prove here, that your guy can't move without being in physical pain? Yeah that makes the argument for him seem strong.

Gosh, you really don't know anything. Kobashi contracted kidney cancer, beat it, and came back to wrestling in under two years. Also, Kobashi has sacrificed more physically in the ring than Michaels would be able to in a career ten times longer than his actual one. No one, and I mean no one, has more heart and spirit than Kobashi; Michaels can do all the superkicks and moonsaults he wants, but he could never beat Kobashi. Unless, of course, some young woman from Leeds takes her usual route and PMs people for votes .

 

[HBK-aholic]

Do you actually have any idea what you yourself are talking about? You've admitted time and time again how ignorant you are when it comes to wrestlers from Japan. Why would you choose to show such ignorance in this WZ event? Do you think the individuals who voted for Kobashi to be on this team and in this event are blind puro marks who just chose him randomly?

Not all of them, but there are always a few. Obviously, people do the same with the WWE, but that always gets mentioned.

The fact of the matter is this: you are choosing to show your ignorance with the wrong wrestler. Shawn Michaels is great, but this doesn't make it necessary that people can't be better than him. In fact, there are plenty of wrestlers better than Shawn Michaels, and Kenta Kobashi is sure as hell one of them. This is just an instance where Michaels gets flat out beat. He doesn't lose because of any flaws he may have in the ring; rather, he loses because Kenta Kobashi is simply the better wrestler, 24/7/365.

Again, I love how people are acting as if this would just be a flat out win for Kobashi. We have people saying you're stupid to vote for Shawn, and you saying he 'gets flat out beat'. Shawn is one of the best in the world. Regardless of who wins, it's stupid to act as if the match would just be over like that.

No, you're right, this has nothing to do with drawing. If it did have anything to do with drawing, Michaels getting even a single vote would be laughable.

Shawn as champion in his prime was up against WCW...I'd like to see half of todays 'stars' draw the amount they do today with that competition.

Gosh, you really don't know anything. Kobashi contracted kidney cancer, beat it, and came back to wrestling in under two years.

And this has what to do with anything?

Also, Kobashi has sacrificed more physically in the ring than Michaels would be able to in a career ten times longer than his actual one.

Again with the blatant disrespect of a wrestler who acquired an injury so bad to his back that he couldn't wrestle for 4 years.

No one, and I mean no one, has more heart and spirit than Kobashi; Michaels can do all the superkicks and moonsaults he wants, but he could never beat Kobashi. Unless, of course, some young woman from Leeds takes her usual route and PMs people for votes .

Which, I'm sure you'll use an excuse if Shawn wins, depsite me not doing this in any of the real tournaments.

 

[X]

Again, I love how people are acting as if this would just be a flat out win for Kobashi. We have people saying you're stupid to vote for Shawn, and you saying he 'gets flat out beat'. Shawn is one of the best in the world. Regardless of who wins, it's stupid to act as if the match would just be over like that.

This is what we mean Becca, because you don't know anything about Kobashi you really don't know what you're talking about here. Kobashi does flat out beat Shawn in every category one can judge a professional wrestler in. Every one of 'em.

Shawn as champion in his prime was up against WCW...I'd like to see half of todays 'stars' draw the amount they do today with that competition.

He was up against a WCW that kicked the WWF's ass to the point of near bankruptcy...sure you want to argue in favor of THAT?

And this has what to do with anything?

It has to do with the fact that Kobashi is tougher and has been through more than HBK has even imagined. Shawn Michaels is the man who had to vacate the IC title because he refused to lose to Shane Douglas after he got a black eye in a bar fight.

Again with the blatant disrespect of a wrestler who acquired an injury so bad to his back that he couldn't wrestle for 4 years.

Wow, way to oversell it huh.

A) His back injury was not the reason he was out for 4 years Becca, HBK could have returned to the ring in 1998 if he wanted to, but he didn't, he wanted to sit out and fix his own problems in his life, it really had almost nothing to do with his back injury.

B) What you've just said is in fact an argument AGAINST HBK. Kobashi has had more injuries than HBK has even imagined Becca, the man has broken almost every bone in his body and is so famous for his lariat clothesline that a doctor told the man that he literally should not physically be able to move his arm anymore, yet he's still out there wrestling to this day, without ever taking a break. The man has wrestled nonstop for well over 20 years now Becca, no nice lengthy 4 year long breaks like HBK had.

I get you love HBK, but how can you be arguing this when you yourself admit you really don't know anything whatsoever about Kobashi? That's like going into a debate about global warming without knowing what the hell global warming even is.

 

[HBK-aholic]

This is what we mean Becca, because you don't know anything about Kobashi you really don't know what you're talking about here. Kobashi does flat out beat Shawn in every category one can judge a professional wrestler in. Every one of 'em.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I'm in no way as entertained by Kobashi as I am Shawn. And yes I know, "But you're a HBK fangirl blah blah".

He was up against a WCW that kicked the WWF's ass to the point of near bankruptcy...sure you want to argue in favor of THAT?

The point is that the WWE has NEVER been up against tougher competition. And it's easy to blame it all on Shawn, but few would be able to do better - Luckily, Austin was one of the few.

It has to do with the fact that Kobashi is tougher and has been through more than HBK has even imagined. Shawn Michaels is the man who had to vacate the IC title because he refused to lose to Shane Douglas after he got a black eye in a bar fight.

So basically, he had cancer, let's vote for him?

Wow, way to oversell it huh.

A) His back injury was not the reason he was out for 4 years Becca, HBK could have returned to the ring in 1998 if he wanted to, but he didn't, he wanted to sit out and fix his own problems in his life, it really had almost nothing to do with his back injury.

His addiction to painkillers and alcohol, which stemmed from his injuries, you mean?

B) What you've just said is in fact an argument AGAINST HBK. Kobashi has had more injuries than HBK has even imagined Becca, the man has broken almost every bone in his body and is so famous for his lariat clothesline that a doctor told the man that he literally should not physically be able to move his arm anymore, yet he's still out there wrestling to this day, without ever taking a break. The man has wrestled nonstop for well over 20 years now

I love how you criticise me for an argument 'against' Shawn, yet you admitted earlier that Kobashi can't move without being in pain. Which is a plus, right?

Becca, no nice lengthy 4 year long breaks like HBK had.

Yeah he had such a nice break.

I get you love HBK, but how can you be arguing this when you yourself admit you really don't know anything whatsoever about Kobashi? That's like going into a debate about global warming without knowing what the hell global warming even is.

Just because I don't know his life story, or watching him wrestle every week, I have watched matches of his before. So, again, while I'm not attempting to say I'm an expert, it's not like I don't know anything.

 

[X]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I'm in no way as entertained by Kobashi as I am Shawn. And yes I know, "But you're a HBK fangirl blah blah".

...Becca have you ever even seen a Kobashi match? Lets be honest now. Hmm?

And if you have, that's cool if you prefer Shawn, but you're not looking at this objectively. If you compare the traits that make a professional wrestler great side-by-side of Kobashi and HBK, Kobashi is simply better in every category Becca.

The point is that the WWE has NEVER been up against tougher competition. And it's easy to blame it all on Shawn, but few would be able to do better - Luckily, Austin was one of the few.

But...HBK failed. Miserably. In fact the moment he LOST the title and STOPPED being on TV is when the WWF becan to beat WCW. What does that tell you about HBK?

Kobashi on the other hand can annually draw near 100,000 people to the Tokyo Dome. Which is larger than the attendance for Wrestlemania 3, the supposed biggest drawing wrestling even in WWF history. Annually.

So basically, he had cancer, let's vote for him?

Where are you getting that? No one is say vote for him because he had cancer, we're just providing you with more reasoning to vote for him. You want to talk about a TOUGH and resilient man, the man beat kidney cancer (WHILE WRESTLING WITH IT!) and didn't bat an eyelash, the man has been through more than HBK has in his life and he's STILL on top wrestling in Japan Becca, that's our point here.

His addiction to painkillers and alcohol, which stemmed from his injuries, you mean?

Exactly. His back injury wasn't what kept him out Becca, it was his addictions. Now what are YOU saying, we should vote for HBK because it took him 4 years to get clean? If we're trying to compare who's had the worse injuries and been through more physical ailments in their career, I ASSURE you Becca, Kobashi has HBK beat in that category tenfold.

I love how you criticise me for an argument 'against' Shawn, yet you admitted earlier that Kobashi can't move without being in pain. Which is a plus, right?

When did I say that was a plus? No, again Becca, I mentioned that to show to you just how fucking tough he is. The man is STILL wrestling a style that HBK couldn't wrestle when he was in his mid-20s prime Becca! Are you familiar with the Japanese style of wrestling, strong style? Imagine Chris Benoit's move set meets CM Punk's with a dash of Vader thrown in. The guy wrestles a more high risk and difficult style of wrestling than HBK did in his prime, and the man is well into his 40s.

Yeah he had such a nice break.

Couldn't have been too hard if he could show up on Raw almost every week in the second half of 1998 to do commentary and be the commissioner. Couldn't have been too hard if he could fly to Japan to referee a title match and hand out Sweet Chin Music's to two different guys while running around like he was a 10 year old kid again.

I ASSURE you Becca, HBK could have wrestled a thousand times before his return in 2002, he just chose not to. Compared to Kobashi, who's been through even more physical turmoil, and has never taken a break even once.

Just because I don't know his life story, or watching him wrestle every week, I have watched matches of his before. So, again, while I'm not attempting to say I'm an expert, it's not like I don't know anything.

But Becca have you even watched a single Kobashi match? And if you have do you actually think one match is enough to judge an entire man's career?

Becca, you know I love HBK, he's one of my favorite wrestlers ever. But he's just not on the same level as Kobashi is, never has been, and never will be. He simply does NOT have what it takes to beat Kobashi in a freaking Iron Man match. If they had Iron Man matches in Japan they'd be like 4 hours long Becca because their NORMAL main event matches routinely go nearly 60 minutes.

Sorry babe, Kobashi has HBK beat every way here, no doubt about it.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

...Becca have you ever even seen a Kobashi match? Lets be honest now. Hmm?

Y'all should post a few more. Moreso because I want to see more.

But...HBK failed. Miserably.

Not really. WCW just really succeeded. Immensely.

In fact the moment he LOST the title and STOPPED being on TV is when the WWF becan to beat WCW. What does that tell you about HBK?

That Austin was better. Nobody is denying that fact here.

Kobashi on the other hand can annually draw near 100,000 people to the Tokyo Dome. Which is larger than the attendance for Wrestlemania 3, the supposed biggest drawing wrestling even in WWF history. Annually.

A partial function of the cultural value of professional wrestling in Japan, let's be honest.

Sorry babe, Kobashi has HBK beat every way here, no doubt about it.

I agree in this instance. I picked Kobashi in this match. But it'd be FAR from easy, and FAR from a walk. Shawn is an all time great. So's Kobashi. If we could ever make this match happen, it'd be one of the most important matches ever.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I know there's a lot of discussion going on in this thread so you'll have to forgive me for not responding to it directly.

I believe it was during the second WrestleZone tournament - or perhaps the third - that I first came across Kobashi's work. I had a rough awareness of who he was and what he'd done. Very rough, mind you. Musing whether I should delve deeper into the story of our dear Kenta, I was convinced by one poster:

"Do it Sam!", he insisted. "Kenta Kobashi matches are better than Viagra when it comes to treating my impotence."

And so off I went, deep into the internet. Wielding Wikipedia and YouTube, I was sure I would find something amazing from the supposedly God-like Kobashi. A trawl through his Wikipedia and OWW articles, six matches and two AMVs later, I was unimpressed.

One example stands out particularly - a match between Kobashi and his namesake KENTA. Now, this match was after Kobashi recovered from cancer so you could excuse his poor performance; although it's characteristic of what I found elsewhere. A dull match where Kobashi did little of the work.

Shawn Michaels, on the other hand, ranks among my very favourite wrestlers - and his matches my very favourite matches.

The choice, for me at least, was simple.

 

[gd]

Haven't seen a ton of stuff from Kobashi, but if you haven't ever seen a match from him, just watch a few minutes of the match tdigle posted. You think that HBK could beat THAT guy? I doubt it. Sure, he's a warrior and would fight till the end and all that jazz, but cmon. If HBK and Kobashi went at it for half an hour, how couldn't you give the advantage to Kobashi? He's ridiculous.

 

[Uncle Sam]

To respond to Xfear's (very) recent red rep of me - you obviously didn't read my post. If you did, you'd have seen that I've viewed several matches of Kobashi's. What I neglected to mention was that I picked them so they had a good spread throughout his career so I'd get a good picture. Like I said, the KENTA match was just the one that I remembered best and so I used that as my example. As a matter of fact, it was recommended to me personally by one poster as one of his best. I think it might have been Shadowmancer.

If you wish to direct me to one of these "so good they'll give you a heart attack" matches with Misawa, I'll gladly watch it. I have a feeling I've already seen it but I don't have a knack for remembering Japanese names - even those as famous as Misawa's. Should I find it as mind-blowing as people make out Kobashi's matches to be, I'll gladly admit he is some breed of superman and that we should all be sterilised to make way for Kobashi's super children. Make sure it ain't on Rapidshare though.

As it is, Shawn Michaels remains as what I consider to be one of the very best wrestlers in the world. Though I'm a critic of his - and let's be honest, what am I not a critic of? - doesn't mean he's failed to impress me at any time during his career. He hasn't.

 

[X]

To respond to Xfear's (very) recent red rep of me - you obviously didn't read my post. If you did, you'd have seen that I've viewed several matches of Kobashi's.

First my old friend Samuel, know that I only red rep the ones I love. This is your payback for those creepy fucking 3D Homer Simpson pictures that haunted my dreams for months. I hope it burns.

Second, I did read your post, all of it. But seeing as how the KENTA match is the only one you named, it's the only one I could talk about because I knew you saw it. And I'm not even aware of which match this was, do you have a date for that match? I assume it was in NOAH.

What I neglected to mention was that I picked them so they had a good spread throughout his career so I'd get a good picture. Like I said, the KENTA match was just the one that I remembered best and so I used that as my example. As a matter of fact, it was recommended to me personally by one poster as one of his best. I think it might have been Shadowmancer.

I didn't know Shadow watched puro. But anyways, what matches did you watch? How about I just recommend you some matches, eh? I'll send you a PM once I'm done with this post bud.

If you wish to direct me to one of these "so good they'll give you a heart attack" matches with Misawa, I'll gladly watch it. I have a feeling I've already seen it but I don't have a knack for remembering Japanese names - even those as famous as Misawa's.

Well if you can't remember what Misawa looks like I kind of have to assume you're a total novice when it comes to Japanese wrestling, am I right? I imagine you'd probably seen some of the NJPW-TNA shows, but outside of that I can assume you haven't seen the basic classics of puro over the years?

Misawa is the guy who always wore green, kind of had a face like a dog I always though. A mean, vicious, one of the greatest to ever live kind of dogs. On most people's list it's generally considered that Misawa is the greatest Japanese wrestler to ever live, with Kobashi a close 2nd and probably Toshiaki Kawada rounding out most people's lists at number three.

Now, I'm sure you've heard of the Misawa-Kobashi feud, if you haven't, well the only way I could attempt to describe it is if like...Chris Benoit and Bret Hart feuded for years in the mid 90s when they were two of the best technical wrestlers on the planet. Except I'd rank both Misawa and Kobashi above Bret, and probably above Benoit. Misawa and Kobashi is THE rivalry man, and has prouced more five star classic matches than yo' grandmammy could count on all of her eleven webbed toes. Wow, I don't know why I said that. I love you Sam, I apologize.

Should I find it as mind-blowing as people make out Kobashi's matches to be, I'll gladly admit he is some breed of superman and that we should all be sterilised to make way for Kobashi's super children. Make sure it ain't on Rapidshare though.

Ha, I know we're making it out to be like he's a God or something, but we kind of have to because me and TDigs realize that alot of our members might not know very much about a guy like Kobashi and are just automatically voting against him, and that's a fucking shame. We kind of have to hype him up so people will do the research and make an educated decision here.

As it is, Shawn Michaels remains as what I consider to be one of the very best wrestlers in the world. Though I'm a critic of his - and let's be honest, what am I not a critic of? - doesn't mean he's failed to impress me at any time during his career. He hasn't.

When it comes to the all-around package of a wrestler, I'd be inclined to agree with you that HBK is one of the greatest to ever live, I absolutely love the man and have been a fan of his since I was seven or eight years old. But to be perfectly fair...HBK is an overrated worker. I mean, yes, we'd be here a long damn time if I had to start naming all the great matches he's worked, but when it come to technical abilities, Kobashi has Michaels beaten quite thoroughly. Of course there's more to a wrestler than just those technical abilities.

But what you have to remember is that this is an Iron Man match Sam. How often does HBK wrestle matches of this length? Not very often, if ever. The man has probably at most wrestled maybe half a dozen matches that were the length of an Iron Man match. I can show you some of the six-man tag wars of AJPW lore that would routinely last up to an hour, sometimes longer, on a month-by-month basis dude. When you factor in just how much Kobashi has HBK beat in the conditioning and technical aspects, there's just nothing HBK could do to put Kobashi out. If he can fight Misawa for a fucking hour and beat the man on multiple occasions, I just don't see how the hell HBK is going to get him. A superkick just isn't going to be nearly enough to lay him out. And even if he DOES lay Kobashi out and get a decision on the man, do you think he's going to be able to beat the odds and continue to win falls against Kobashi? I'm sorry but if you tell me Kobashi and HBK are going to wrestle ten matches, I'm going to say Kobashi wins atleast six of them. The averages aren't in HBK's favor there. Combining all of these things, and just the fact that I truly do believe Kobashi is the superior wrestler to Shawn Michaels in every aspect, is why my vote here is for Kobashi and why I'm arguing his case so vehemently.

Okay, now give me a few minutes to find some matches for you and I'll PM them to you Sam. If you don't watch atleast a few of them (they most likely will be quite long) I'll be sadly disappointed mon frere.

 

[Uncle Sam]

First my old friend Samuel, know that I only red rep the ones I love. This is your payback for those creepy fucking 3D Homer Simpson pictures that haunted my dreams for months. I hope it burns.

You already repped me with a picture of Homer and Marge having sex months ago. Vindictive; that's what you are.

And I'm not even aware of which match this was, do you have a date for that match? I assume it was in NOAH.

This is just off the top of my head but I believe it was in NOAH and in the year, ooh, 2000?

I didn't know Shadow watched puro.

Not sure if serious.

But anyways, what matches did you watch? How about I just recommend you some matches, eh? I'll send you a PM once I'm done with this post bud.

That'd be nice, yeah. You jogged my memory, by the way. Already seen the Steve Williams match. Wasn't overwhelmed by it.

Misawa and Kobashi is THE rivalry man, and has prouced more five star classic matches than yo' grandmammy could count on all of her eleven webbed toes. Wow, I don't know why I said that. I love you Sam, I apologize.

You should.

But to be perfectly fair...HBK is an overrated worker.

Well, obviously. Did you see his match against The Undertaker recently? I'll never understand the praise it gets. I suppose it's because they wrestled sloppily enough that there was a distinct possibility one of them could die before the night was out.

Anyway, watched the Kobashi/Misawa match from 2003. Some thoughts:

If I had to describe this match in one sentence it would be "like Hogan/Warrior but with more suplexes". The beginning of the match is straight out of the Hogan/Warrior textbook, complete with unconvincing counters. Wait a second, that doesn't sound very Hogan/Warrior, does it? Seriously though, did not care for how the match started out.

The match moves on a bit and they finally start pulling out the big moves. Then they never stop. I mean, they stop, but only because the poor bastards are kicking the shit out of each other and need to lie on the floor for a bit. Very Undertaker/HBK this bit.

Japanese commentators are fucking insane, I'll say that much. "DIVING ELBOOWWWW!!", "DEE-DEE-TEEIIIIIII!!" - they're passionate.

The Japanese crowd is hot. They react to the weirdest things. For example, Misawa misses an elbow at one stage and it brings the fucking house down. I'm bemused.

I'm dancing around saying that I enjoyed the match. I actually thought it was rather good. Before I got bored and started playing with a protractor (turns out a lot things on my desk have right angles, by the way) I was contemplating coming in here and saying, "Well, that was really rather fantastic." But I won't say that; I refuse. One reason - too many suplexes. I mean, suplexes are my bread and butter. In fact, if I was making a sandwich and someone brought me bread and butter I'd be all, "Yo bitch, why you giving me bread and butter when you should be giving me a suplex?". And I still thought they overdid it.

But yes, very good match. On your scale X, I'd say it's... 3.65557 stars out of 5. I'll watch some of the other matches tomorrow. It's 10.20 on a Friday night and I have better things to do than watch Japanese wrestling. I don't really. I'm lonely. Hold me.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Not all of them, but there are always a few. Obviously, people do the same with the WWE, but that always gets mentioned.

I really don't care if people call out others for liking WWE. I am not a fan of the product, and I always provide reasons for why this is so; however, I have never attempted to scoff at or belittle someone like you have for simply having good reasons for liking puroresu. With you, it's nothing but the same shit on a different day:

Anyway, I laughed, but wasn't shocked at all when I looked at the scores as they currently stand. The Japan love on this forum is shocking sometimes.

IrishCanadian25 red repped me for supposedly disrespecting you with my last post, but can I honestly be blamed when you say things like what I quoted above? I think not.

Again, I love how people are acting as if this would just be a flat out win for Kobashi. We have people saying you're stupid to vote for Shawn, and you saying he 'gets flat out beat'. Shawn is one of the best in the world. Regardless of who wins, it's stupid to act as if the match would just be over like that.

Why don't you actually post matches as evidence instead of just assuming that what you say is indisputable fact? Let me link some more Kobashi matches for you, where the man takes on opponents that Shawn Michaels would have no chance in hell of beating even on his best day. Why, you ask? Because Michaels is nowhere near as dogged, determined, or driven as the likes of Kobashi, Toshiakl Kawada, and Stan Hansen:

19 January 1995: Kobashi vs. Kawada, AJPW Triple Crown Championship Match

Oh, just to let you know, Michaels does have two things going for him: timing and accuracy. Unfortunately, Toshiaki Kawada is not only stronger and just as fast as Michaels, but he has better timing and accuracy, as this match, and many others, prove. Since I highly doubt you'll watch this match (it's not in English), I'll give you the ending now: Kawada and Kobashi go to a 60-minute draw in a match that makes the match Michaels and Hart put on at WM XII look like neophytes grabassing at Dominic Denucci's professional wrestling school.

5 September 1996: Kobashi vs. Hansen, AJPW Triple Crown Championship Match

Kobashi successfully defends his title against a man many regard as the toughest gaijin ever. If you do in fact watch this match then you'll see that Kobashi takes as much punishment as Michaels takes in a year. Damn, so I guess we can add resiliency to our list of things Kobashi has tons of!!! What makes you think Michaels will be able to even get one pin on a man who can take much, much more than everything he's got?

Shawn as champion in his prime was up against WCW...I'd like to see half of todays 'stars' draw the amount they do today with that competition.



And this has what to do with anything?

Hey, you're the one that wanted to have the vicarious pissing contest, not me. You mention Michaels's injuries and his recoveries, I give you something much more excruciating on Kobashi's part. You mention drawing, I just give you the hard facts of the matter: Kobashi shits on Michaels's ability to draw. But, like I said before, I'm willing to totally exclude this from consideration because frankly I don't need it to know that Kobashi is still much better and more significant than Michaels.

Again with the blatant disrespect of a wrestler who acquired an injury so bad to his back that he couldn't wrestle for 4 years.

No, this is disrespect towards you and your assumption that Kobashi is not as good as Michaels because he's from Japan and never wrestled in WWE.

Which, I'm sure you'll use an excuse if Shawn wins, depsite me not doing this in any of the real tournaments.

We'll see about that.

 

[jmt225]

Unless someone can prove different (and I have yet to see anyone come close to doing so in this thread), there is no way, shape, or form HBK would be able to put Kobashi down. The guy is simply too tough. You watch pretty much any of Kobashi's matches, and you'll see him take more damage than HBK could ever inflict upon him, and continue to come back and kick ass. That's the determining factor here for me: HBK's Superkick and Elbow Drop would not keep Kobashi down, no matter how many times he hit it. Fact. However, Kobashi has PLENTY of moves in his arsenal that would keep HBK down, who you have to remember, has had a lot of concessions and back problems throughout his career. Fuck, the guy couldn't take an Enzuigiri from Owen Hart; what makes you think he could take half of these moves from Kobashi and get up from them?

[YOUTUBE]8oTbfR8LM1E[/YOUTUBE]

 

[The Underking]

Wow after watching that last video that burning hammer look's like its going to hurt i cringed in four of those moves. Though the rest shawn meichals could probably do it himself. Though if i could i would definitely change my vote awesome vid