Rd. 1 Ironman - Kenta Kobashi (JAP) vs Shawn Michaels (USA)

[Mr. Truth]

I originally had a rather lengthy post but I accidently hit the back button on my mouse and it got deleted. To sum it up, I've watched some Kobashi matches (the on posted against Vader, against Dr. Death in '93, and against Jun Akiyama in '04) since I wasn't that familiar with how he actually worked in the ring. After watching them, I concluded the guy can take a beating. Granted, he did lose two of the matches, but both were against bigger men who imposed their size advantage. Shawn Michaels doesn't have that advantage. Since Kobashi can take a beating, it would take more then a Sweet Chin Music to get a pin, and Kobashi has numerous moves that could probably score a pin. So I'm going to go with Kobashi, although narrowly. This would be one hell of a match that I would pay to see.

 

[HeartBreak King]

i think people are seriously underestimating shawn michaels in this match. are we forgetting that this is The Showstopper, The Main Event, Mr. Wrestlemania we are talking about here. titles like that dont get handed out to just any ole slouch. HBK is widely considered one of the best in the WORLD, yet here he is being brushed off in a match against someone whom ive never even heard of until this tournament was announced. If kobashi is soooo good, how come he has never wrestled for any of the big companies over here in the US? if you pride yourself on being a great wrestler, shouldnt you want to bring your game to the highest level i.e. WWE or even the minor leagues i.e. TNA? Yet while HBK is wrestling in MOTY contests and headlining the biggest ppv's, kobashi is where...?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

i think people are seriously underestimating shawn michaels in this match. are we forgetting that this is The Showstopper, The Main Event, Mr. Wrestlemania we are talking about here. titles like that dont get handed out to just any ole slouch. HBK is widely considered one of the best in the WORLD, yet here he is being brushed off in a match against someone whom ive never even heard of until this tournament was announced. If kobashi is soooo good, how come he has never wrestled for any of the big companies over here in the US? if you pride yourself on being a great wrestler, shouldnt you want to bring your game to the highest level i.e. WWE or even the minor leagues i.e. TNA? Yet while HBK is wrestling in MOTY contests and headlining the biggest ppv's, kobashi is where...?

You want some too? I thought you said you wanted us to take it easy on you? Obviously, this isn't the case...

Firstly, I just want to say that you are either a troll, have a severe case of ADHD, or are just plain stupid. Where does it say in any of our posts that we consider Michaels a slouch? As we have said time and time again (here's how I know that you're one of the three things I just listed), it's not that Michaels is bad; rather, Kobashi is just flat-out better than him.

Also, with you throwing around your "match of the year" comments, I assume that you've been exposed to either Pro Wrestling Illustrated or The Wrestling Observer Newsletter, which are both publications that take Kobashi dick-sucking to a level that even xfearbefore (Mr. Eko) and myself can't take it to. Of course, I assume wrong here, as you probably just read wrestling forums and take keywords to insert into your posts to make yourself come off as intelligent (it has failed here big time, by the way).

Finally, as for why Kobashi has never wrestled in the US for any of the national promotions: why would he have to? He's one of Japan's five biggest wrestling stars ever, where he more than likely makes over a million US dollars a year wrestling for NOAH. Ultimately, that's the one thing WWE has over most other promotions: a bigger payday. But, why go there when you can get a huge paycheck and work in your own country?

 

[X]

i think people are seriously underestimating shawn michaels in this match.

Not at all. It's more like people (like you) CLEARLY know absolutely nothing about Kenta Kobashi.

are we forgetting that this is The Showstopper, The Main Event, Mr. Wrestlemania we are talking about here. titles like that dont get handed out to just any ole slouch.

Uhh, what's your point here? He has nicknames? How is that relevant? Kobashi has plenty of nicknames as well. HBK is simply not even half of the worker that Kobashi is, and that's no disrespect to Shawn.

HBK is widely considered one of the best in the WORLD, yet here he is being brushed off in a match against someone whom ive never even heard of until this tournament was announced.

Oh, cool, so then you ADMIT you're fucking clueless and don't know what the fuck you're talking about. That's nice. Kind of my point here.

If kobashi is soooo good, how come he has never wrestled for any of the big companies over here in the US?

Umm, because why the fuck would he want to or need to? He's made a total of MAYBE a dozen appearances in the US in his entire career because he has no need to come over here when he's making millions of dollars wrestling in his own country, in front of more people, and gaining more respect for doing so.

if you pride yourself on being a great wrestler, shouldnt you want to bring your game to the highest level i.e. WWE or even the minor leagues i.e. TNA?

Lol, such a stupid fucking attitude. Congratulations for exemplifying a little something known as "ethnocentrism", or the belief that your culture is superior to all others. How is the WWE the biggest level? You realize companies like AJPW, NJPW, and NOAH pull in an absolutely unfathomable amount of money in Japan, right?

Yet while HBK is wrestling in MOTY contests and headlining the biggest ppv's, kobashi is where...?

Wrestling far more MOTY contests, at a more consistent level, headlining in front of larger crowds than Shawn Michaels has ever seen. That's where he was.

Feel free at any time to even attempt to know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[Mr. Truth]

It's a damn shame that Shawn Michaels won and just goes to show you how too many people around here vote based on popularity and name value. The evidence put forth in this thread shows clearly that Kobashi should be the winner of this match. Oh well, guess that's how the cookie crumbles, so to speak.

 

[Dagger Dias]

I'm getting a little tired of seeing "you guys know nothing about Kobashi!" being one of the main reasons for being upset that HBK won this match. I understand that you guys want the better man to win, but this whole issue of us Michaels fans not knowing enough about Kobashi isn't going to help. If Kobashi really was that awesome then how come some of us had to look him up on wikipedia just to know who he even is? I'm not saying that "more famous = better" because that's not entirely the case, but we're talking about Shawn Michaels here, he's a legend. He works for the #1 federation in the world and is recognized by millions worldwide. It would take someone as talented AND as well known in order for HBK to not deserve the win here because he's one of the best at what he does AND one of the most recognized stars in history.

This happens all the time in all sorts of discussions over whether something is better than something else. If someone likes one choice better than another, they are going to go with the one they picked. Shawn Michaels is one of my favorite wrestlers, so I voted for him. Sure, I was asked to vote for him, but I still looked up Kobashi and did some research to find out more about him. That didn't change my mind and I voted for HBK.

Whether you agree with me or not, HBK has won this match and I think we shouldn't make this big a deal out of it. More people picked HBK, so he wins. That's how winning by majority works. Sometimes your choice wins, sometimes they lose.

 

[Shadowmancer]

And you fall straight into your own trap, WWE is the most well known product in the world. And is therefore in an almost monopoly situation when it comes to the world of Professional Wrestling, Kobashi does not fit the model of a WWE superstar, he is a Professional Wrestler. He entertains via wrestling his brand of Kings High Road style. There is a belief that is held that Wrestlers that are older, or did not wrestle in the United States are inferior to those which are wrestling in the United States now. Giant Fallacy and it is shown up here. It is a thirty minute Iron Man match and I can think of one thing here, Shawn Michaels doesn't win, he draws. case in point the last one I can think of was his 30 minute Iron Man Match against Kurt Angle. He drew. Kobashi on the other hand lost for two years straight when he was starting out. He is still a bigger draw than shawn michaels. And this was during a very competitive period between NJPW and AJPW.

I know the results are over but should not the alts that voted havebeen removed due to them being against the rules.

 

[Mr. Truth]

If Kobashi really was that awesome then how come some of us had to look him up on wikipedia just to know who he even is?

Because the man doesn't wrestle outside of Japan. If you didn't wrestle in the US, chances are American wrestling fans don't know of you.

Sure, I was asked to vote for him, but I still looked up Kobashi and did some research to find out more about him. That didn't change my mind and I voted for HBK.

And I thank you for doing that. If I just went with who I knew more of, I would have obviously gone with Shawn Michaels, but my research led me to believe that Kobashi would win. Unfortunately, I have this feeling that well over of the people (or people's alts, but that's another problem all together that I'll address briefly in a minute) who voted for Michaels either A) didn't do any research or B) didn't give it any thought nor read through the thread and said "Oh it's Mr. Wrestlemania vs some Japanese dude, wonder who'll win that.

More people picked HBK, so he wins. That's how winning by majority works.

Maybe in the future, matches should require a super majority ala the Senate does for preventing a filibuster. If that majority can't be achieved, either A) both advance, or B) a rematch should be held. In addition, it's quite possible that less people picked HBK to win, but had alternate accounts (and it is also possible that people did the same for Kobashi) so maybe the next time someone on WZ holds one of these, there can be a way to eliminate accounts with less then X number of posts or something of the like. Anyway, my rant is done, and I'm not upset with HBK winning, just the fact that most likely a lot of his supporters didn't give Kobashi a chance.

 

[TimtheKabim]

You guys here are pathetic! Really pathetic. I dont think anybody here knows anything about the business.

First of all, im a worker, so i know a thing or two more than anybody

My trainer is Don Callis, who is a good friend of Chris Jericho, and Don isnt the greatest guy.
Callis was only in wwf and ecw and a lot of indies, only travelled the world as IWA champ and produced some international TV, who would ever want to get trained by someonme like that (sarcasim)...
Later Don transitioned from being a worker to being on the writing staff (at the time like 3 guys, before they started hiring TV writers and it started sucking) then we burnt out (cause with vince and the writing staff its like a 24-7 job) and then went to ECW as cyrus (during that time is when he started training) and because I got trained by a name I got to meet and work with other names he knew (rhino, kurragan, road warriors, etc...), I lucked out in that sense..


Second.


You guys are insulting us trained professionals with this rhetoric you guys spew. And I could care less if you believe me or not, I got trained by a former WWF guy and head writer and actually pursued it and worked in a ring with some big names before getting out and focusing on school, I didn't sit on the sidelines.
And before you guys starting acting like you know so much, get in the ring and work a few years, and have a few shoot- matches.

Third


I worked for 7 years and my best friend is the hottest Indy-worker in the world, wrestlet in Japan, ROH, JAPW, and worked for WWE before asking for his release, so I know a thing or two. Everything you said is wrong.
My bf was in WWE, a friend who I trained with for Wrestling but in the last 3 years he made the transition is in MMA and goes to Japan a few times a year, but Im not bringing them into this.


If you guys wanna respond do it with knowlegde, not stupid fanboy ranting shit.
HBK is one of the greatest Mainstream Pro-wrestler of all time. He can make one kip-up more dramatic than a technical guy hitting 5 German suplexes in a row. He knows how to 'work' the audience.. and that is why he was so innovative in so many gimmick matches (ladder, HITC) as well... he used psychology to emphasis the importance of the gimmick. HBK is more versiltle than most of the guys, and i dont think you guys give HBK the credit he deserves, just because hes a Mainstream Wrestler.

Hell there are plently of wrestling who in North America who are better than HBK technically. But from an in-ring performance based on drama, drawing a crowd in and telling a compelling story then HBK is one of the best. His WM matches alone are becoming unique selling points yearly based on their high standards.




You cant really compare Puro with Mainstream.
Japanese wrestling is a different beast to mainstream so in some ways it is difficult to compare. Its far stiffer etc....






In the end Kobashi is lightyears better than HBK.
Kobashis Wrestling-abillity was and still is just awesome, and you cant compare it to many wrestlers.

Watch every match of Kobashi in the 90s and tell me that he dindt told the best Story in every single damn match! Kobashi is a better In-Ring performer than HBK ever was, and his skills are nearly unmatches. I personally, as a Worker would rank him in Top 5 easily. Hell easily Top 3. Kobashi is the best puro ever, thats not a strecht, not at all.
Michaels never was better than Kobashi, not in the 90s, and not today( And Michaels is still great today, but Kobashi is still better!! )


Kobashi beats HBK in every way when it comes to ringwork, period.

If someone heres a legit Worker, im sure they agree with me..

If someone votes HBK here, they never seen Kobashi wrestle and are pathetic WWE-marks.


WWE-fanboys need to watch Kenta Kobashi matches in a locked room clockwork orange-style for 48 hours -then they will see what a Pro-wrestler is suppose to be.



And yes, I'm in the know, I was fortunate enough to work with some names and took the opportunity to learn from them, problem is we don't have the territories really anymore, you have cookie cutter developmental systems that produce crap (Cena, goldberg, most of the guys coming out now...my friend was so miserable there he left the fed, thats saying something for how bad its gotten!) and are taught by guys who suck (Hugh Morris, 'Sarge')

 

[TheThirdHebner]

I think the right guy won here. Kobashi is an amazing wrestler, and he's fun to watch, but HBK is a better worker. Puro is just an easier style to do. To me, the art in professional wrestling is to make it look like you're hurting someone and hitting them while doing as little actual damage as possible. Working stiff is a shortcut. The Japanese style is centered around being stiff, and, to me, it's easy to look like you're hitting someone when you're, you know, actually hitting them.

By the same token, HBK, for all of his faults (and I don't like the guy at all), is a very safe worker by all accounts, and you barely feel it when he's on the offensive, including his very well done superkick finisher.

From a kayfabe perspective, it's pretty much even in my mind. Both guys were very good, championship-caliber guys. Neither was overly dominant, they both won and lost often. So I broke kayfabe and went with the better worker. Both are very good workers, very good at what they do...in my mind, Shawn's got a higher level of difficulty, and looks just as good, so I would have voted for him.

 

[X]

I think the right guy won here. Kobashi is an amazing wrestler, and he's fun to watch, but HBK is a better worker.

He absolutely is not.

Puro is just an easier style to do.

And that is easily one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard in my entire life. I'm actually stunned right now that someone would actually have a notion as foolish as that.

How is the strong style easier to work than the American style? Are you shitting me? It takes a FAR worse physical toll on the performers and FAR more is required physically and in the ring from the wrestlers than those in the United States. How many times do you see HBK getting a Burner Hammer onto a concrete floor? Oh, that's right, never. How many hour long matches has HBK wrestled in his career? Two? Three? As compared to main event matches in Japan routinely going up to and sometimes over an hour in length? This is the easier style than HBK going out to the ring to do his routine of moves (atomic drop, body slam, elbow drop, sweet chin music, repeat) and lay around for about 20 minutes?

I'm literally baffled by that statement.

To me, the art in professional wrestling is to make it look like you're hurting someone and hitting them while doing as little actual damage as possible. Working stiff is a shortcut. The Japanese style is centered around being stiff, and, to me, it's easy to look like you're hitting someone when you're, you know, actually hitting them.

If the performer is willing to take the physical punishment as these Japanese workers are, how exactly is that a problem? Further more how is that any different from taking a bump, such as the dozens and dozens HBK has taken through tables and off of ladders? In both cases you're physically hurting yourself, and as JR so eloquently likes to put it, "you can't teach someone how to fall".

By the same token, HBK, for all of his faults (and I don't like the guy at all), is a very safe worker by all accounts, and you barely feel it when he's on the offensive, including his very well done superkick finisher.

Kobashi is simply better in every aspect in the ring though. He's a far better seller than HBK is, he has a reportoire of high-impact power and submission moves that are unlike most that HBK has ever had to deal with on a routine basis in the United States, and absolutely no one in wrestling history can tell the story inside the ring of the underdog rising up to victory like Kobashi can, no one.

From a kayfabe perspective, it's pretty much even in my mind. Both guys were very good, championship-caliber guys. Neither was overly dominant, they both won and lost often. So I broke kayfabe and went with the better worker. Both are very good workers, very good at what they do...in my mind, Shawn's got a higher level of difficulty, and looks just as good, so I would have voted for him.

I am again simply baffled by your explanation for why you think Shawn is a better worker than Kobashi. You have a vastly different definition to a great worker than the overwhelming majority of people do.

 

[TheThirdHebner]

He absolutely is not.

Absolutely? It's an opinion, not a fact, so absolutely seems a bit much.

And that is easily one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard in my entire life. I'm actually stunned right now that someone would actually have a notion as foolish as that.

How is the strong style easier to work than the American style? Are you shitting me? It takes a FAR worse physical toll on the performers and FAR more is required physically and in the ring from the wrestlers than those in the United States. How many times do you see HBK getting a Burner Hammer onto a concrete floor? Oh, that's right, never. How many hour long matches has HBK wrestled in his career? Two? Three? As compared to main event matches in Japan routinely going up to and sometimes over an hour in length? This is the easier style than HBK going out to the ring to do his routine of moves (atomic drop, body slam, elbow drop, sweet chin music, repeat) and lay around for about 20 minutes?


I'm literally baffled by that statement.

I explained it later on in the post.

If the performer is willing to take the physical punishment as these Japanese workers are, how exactly is that a problem? Further more how is that any different from taking a bump, such as the dozens and dozens HBK has taken through tables and off of ladders? In both cases you're physically hurting yourself, and as JR so eloquently likes to put it, "you can't teach someone how to fall".

I didn't say it was bad to be stiff. It can be enjoyable to watch. But it's undeniably easier to do. How can you argue that? Making it look like you're hitting a guy very hard is easier when you're actually hitting him very hard. Regarding bumps, that's a different matter, because, as you said, you can't teach someone to fall. It's going to hurt one way or the other.

Kobashi is simply better in every aspect in the ring though. He's a far better seller than HBK is, he has a reportoire of high-impact power and submission moves that are unlike most that HBK has ever had to deal with on a routine basis in the United States, and absolutely no one in wrestling history can tell the story inside the ring of the underdog rising up to victory like Kobashi can, no one.

I disagree. Kobashi is a better seller/has better psychology, but i think Shawn is the better bumper. Regarding the storytelling, he did tell the one story very well (the underdog rising to victory), but that was pretty much his only story! He wasn't really telling any other stories. He was great at that one, but that's it. Shawn may not have told any particular story as well, but he told a wider variety of stories pretty well.

I am again simply baffled by your explanation for why you think Shawn is a better worker than Kobashi. You have a vastly different definition to a great worker than the overwhelming majority of people do.

I guess so. Maybe I'm looking at it more from a worker perspective, as opposed to a pure fan perspective, where the main concern is whether it looks real, and that's it. To me, as I said, the true art is performing without hurting your opponent, and the puro style isn't about that as much. To me, it's easier to look like you're hitting someone when you're actually hitting them, rather then looking like you're hitting someone while they barely feel you're touch.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Absolutely? It's an opinion, not a fact, so absolutely seems a bit much.



I explained it later on in the post.



I didn't say it was bad to be stiff. It can be enjoyable to watch. But it's undeniably easier to do. How can you argue that? Making it look like you're hitting a guy very hard is easier when you're actually hitting him very hard. Regarding bumps, that's a different matter, because, as you said, you can't teach someone to fall. It's going to hurt one way or the other.



I disagree. Kobashi is a better seller/has better psychology, but i think Shawn is the better bumper. Regarding the storytelling, he did tell the one story very well (the underdog rising to victory), but that was pretty much his only story! He wasn't really telling any other stories. He was great at that one, but that's it. Shawn may not have told any particular story as well, but he told a wider variety of stories pretty well.



I guess so. Maybe I'm looking at it more from a worker perspective, as opposed to a pure fan perspective, where the main concern is whether it looks real, and that's it. To me, as I said, the true art is performing without hurting your opponent, and the puro style isn't about that as much. To me, it's easier to look like you're hitting someone when you're actually hitting them, rather then looking like you're hitting someone while they barely feel you're touch.

So are you trying to say that Japanese wrestlers aren't as good as American ones because they don't display the true art of performing without hurting your opponents because there have been plenty of American wrestlers who have hurt their opponents. I don't think HBK is going to be running to Vince if Kobashi is too stiff like he did Vader. HBK is in my opinion one of the worst sellers of moves out there and after Kobashi's onslaught, I don't think HBK will have time to do the theratics he does because he won't be getting up.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Absolutely? It's an opinion, not a fact, so absolutely seems a bit much.

All right, if his statement's an opinion, then so is yours. But, I'll take X's opinion over yours because he supports his argument much more than you support your own.

I explained it later on in the post.

I don't know what you're referring to here, but I doubt that you explained it.

I didn't say it was bad to be stiff. It can be enjoyable to watch. But it's undeniably easier to do. How can you argue that? Making it look like you're hitting a guy very hard is easier when you're actually hitting him very hard. Regarding bumps, that's a different matter, because, as you said, you can't teach someone to fall. It's going to hurt one way or the other.

How many wrestlers can make their moves look stiff without hurting their opponent? The only two from WWE that come to mind are William Regal and The Undertaker. Yes, it's harder to look stiff than to actually be stiff, but this point is irrelevant here, as Michaels has never looked stiff in the ring.

Oh, and since I'm anticipating a certain objection you'll make here: yes, being stiff is better than neither looking nor being stiff.

I disagree. Kobashi is a better seller/has better psychology, but i think Shawn is the better bumper. Regarding the storytelling, he did tell the one story very well (the underdog rising to victory), but that was pretty much his only story! He wasn't really telling any other stories. He was great at that one, but that's it. Shawn may not have told any particular story as well, but he told a wider variety of stories pretty well.

Better bumper? We're talking about the guy who oversold Hulk's moves because he was pissed Hulk wouldn't return the favor, right?

Also, what the fuck does it matter if that's the only story he tells? Can you speak Japanese? I can't, and Kobashi never fails to convey his purpose and intent in the ring without a single word. Michaels is a great storyteller, and I'm sure I could get the hang of what he was about if I didn't speak English, but I doubt he could perform as well as Kobashi without the use of language.

Finally, when did telling different types of stories in the ring make you a better storyteller overall? I could play 10 different personae in the ring and, according to you, I'd then be better at telling stories than Kobashi because I have more breadth than depth.

I guess so. Maybe I'm looking at it more from a worker perspective, as opposed to a pure fan perspective, where the main concern is whether it looks real, and that's it. To me, as I said, the true art is performing without hurting your opponent, and the puro style isn't about that as much. To me, it's easier to look like you're hitting someone when you're actually hitting them, rather then looking like you're hitting someone while they barely feel you're touch.

And your point here has absolutely no relevance to this argument, as Michaels is a far cry from a wrestler who can make it look like he's hurting his opponent when he, in fact, isn't.