Is Undertaker the Best Big Man Ever?
- Thread starter SSJPhenom
- Start date
Kenny Powers
Bulletproof Tiger
Undertaker is probably the best big man now. It depends on how you define the term big man. Andre the Giant was a big man and a huge main eventer. Mike Awesome was an incredible in ring performer but never reached super star level like the Undertaker. Lesnar and Hogan are both big but if you are going on height alone like 7 foot range I would say Matt Morgan has the ability to be the best big man ever.
If you want to talk about in ring ability then you can't put any big man above The Undertaker. I mean is array of power moves, flying moves, strikes, submissions, and finishers is amazing. He is the total package as far as professional wrestling is concerned. His character is second to none, his promos are always interesting, he gets respect whether you like him or you don't, and, again, his in ring work is unlike any other big man. 'Taker is the best big man of all time and should go down in history as such.
Yes he was, but he didn't have the mobility that Taker has. Nor did he have the talent in the ring. I'm not bashing Andre, but he was limited, ask anyone. Andre was big, because he was just that... Big. The guy was nearly 700 pounds. To be honest that was all he had. On the other hand Taker isn't limited in the ring, even though he is 6'10". Anything you name Taker has it. Power game, Submissions, Technical aspect, and he's one of the best Brawlers in the WWE. The guy has everything when it comes to the ring.
Mike Awesome wasn't near the level of the Undertaker. Not only in status, but in talent. He might have been a good in ring performer. Taker just happens to be one of the best.
Neither Hogan or Lesnar are considered big... While each are big, they aren't considered so when it comes to the ring, generally it's over 6'8". Matt Morgan has some good ability. I'll give him that, but in his time in TNA he hasn't impressed me. The guy has all these gifts, but isn't showing them. I haven't found one of his matches ever entertaining. He's a long way off from being the in the same league as the Undertaker.
It's really simple, to this day Undertaker is one of greatest big men to ever step in the ring. In my opinion he is the best. I haven't seen another guy that even rivals Taker. Not only in the ring, but out of the ring. He doesn't have a problem putting over younger talent. For that in my mind that makes him the best hands down.
slimmshady
Pre-Show Stalwart
No doubt about it. The dead man is the greatest "big" pro-wrestler to ever step into the ring. Having said that, the old masked kane could arguably become one of the contenders because of the impact he had upon the wwf universe when he made his debut (he was considered as the new monster heel for the wwf and on the other side, taker was considered as the new monster face).
Spaceman Spif
Getting Noticed By Management
Arguably he is, arguably, Undertaker is amazing, he's was/is one of the best big men, but not ever, we never know who will the best ever. So he is one of the best big men, but no the best ever. At some point down the road in 2 years, 10 years, 50 years, another huge man will come along that will turn the wrestling world upside down and right side up again. They will say he's the best big man ever, and someone will say he's not but one of the best.
There really is no way to say that someone is the best ever, there will always be someone who comes along that is better or others will won't even agree that they are the best. So it has to be arguably.
There really is no way to say that someone is the best ever, there will always be someone who comes along that is better or others will won't even agree that they are the best. So it has to be arguably.
kingceasar30420
Dark Match Jobber
undertaker used to be amazing he aint no more, jus like hogan, & flair, he killed his own name, whn undertaker was amercan bad ass was tha last time we seen a good healthy undertaker. tha dude has been wrestling to long its done wore his body down, i understand he a ledgend but do u remember how good hogan look in 2004 compared to undertaker now. he been diven a back seat ride on wwe, he jus a name they bring up eva siw months now, when he used to be a crowd sell out now he jus a gimmik eater. he might have done made enough to live off so jus like rock an austin, hit hollywood before ur found dead in a hotel room tha dead man wlkin became tha dead man strollin,haha
The Undertaker is just as good now as he had ever been. The last couple of years, he has been in the best shape of his career and trust me, without Taker, Smackdown would be just like ECW. He is still a headliner and he is the Best Big Man EVER!
I have to go with yes, I do think that he is the best big man ever.
In terms of height, I have never seen a man who is athletic as the Undertaker. The thing that makes him so special is his agility and the way he can change his move set over time. I mean, not many big men will risk walking along the top rope, most are just too big and awkward to try it. The Undertaker is probably the most varied big man in the WWE and probably one of the most varied men in the WWE. Take for example Triple H. I am a Triple H mark but I cannot tell you the last time I saw him use a move that he is uncomfortable with. Everyone says the same about Cena, although I don't personally agree.
Like him or not, Taker is probably the most varied big man. If you are almost 7 feet tall and throwing yourself over the top rope then you are doing something right. I have never seen anything like that from a bug man like him. But of course, I am going to say that. Taker is awesome and has no real competition from bigger men Today. I mean, look at Big Show and Khali. They have no style in the ring and they look uncomfortable going at any real pace. Taker can handle a fast paced match and can mount some good offence in said situation.
So I am going to say yes. Mainly because of the way he can switch his game up.
In terms of height, I have never seen a man who is athletic as the Undertaker. The thing that makes him so special is his agility and the way he can change his move set over time. I mean, not many big men will risk walking along the top rope, most are just too big and awkward to try it. The Undertaker is probably the most varied big man in the WWE and probably one of the most varied men in the WWE. Take for example Triple H. I am a Triple H mark but I cannot tell you the last time I saw him use a move that he is uncomfortable with. Everyone says the same about Cena, although I don't personally agree.
Like him or not, Taker is probably the most varied big man. If you are almost 7 feet tall and throwing yourself over the top rope then you are doing something right. I have never seen anything like that from a bug man like him. But of course, I am going to say that. Taker is awesome and has no real competition from bigger men Today. I mean, look at Big Show and Khali. They have no style in the ring and they look uncomfortable going at any real pace. Taker can handle a fast paced match and can mount some good offence in said situation.
So I am going to say yes. Mainly because of the way he can switch his game up.
I'd say yes. 'Taker is arguably the most recognizable person in the history of pro wrestling! He can do many things a man his size cant! And unlike most heavy weights and super heavy weights 'Taker just doesn't use his size as an advantage, he uses his: speed, striking ability, submission holds, grapples,etc. He's the total package, and he is a decent high flyer as well.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
It's arguable. A case could also be made for Andre, I'm sure of that. The Undertaker is the longest reigning big-man in the WWE, which does mean something. His legacy ultimately is that he was never beaten at Wrestlemania - a heck of a feat when you see that he's participated in 17 of them. While not all were with tough competitors, in recent years his competition has seen the likes of Edge, Shawn Michaels, Batista etc. To beat wrestlers of that talent on the biggest stage of them all is something no other big man could do.
Viola Moonlight
I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW
Unfortunately in today's society, there are pretty much multiples of everything... even for things that only require a monopoly. Since there are the Oxford & the Macquarie Dictionaries (just to start with), there going to be many upon many definitions on how you define "Best Big Man."
With most stories like this, nothing is hands down. So, Undertaker has to be arguably the best Big Man. Yes he is the total package when it comes to wrestling abilities for a big man, but that is only one aspect. Areas such as mic skills & such must be taken into account. Though Taker rarities on the mic is good, he unfortunately cannot do this on a regular basis or through sustained periods of time in character. Look at his promos prior to WM25 on his fued HBK. He botched two lines in a crucial promo & the initial mic time given he went out of character a little to be human & speak of the streak.
Though I would say he is the best big man, there are others like Andre that can & will put up a big fight.
EDIT: Whoever voted for 'Taker sucks should really take a second thought at their vote. Im no Undertaker fan, but he is an absolutely phenomenal wrestler, entertainer & worker.
With most stories like this, nothing is hands down. So, Undertaker has to be arguably the best Big Man. Yes he is the total package when it comes to wrestling abilities for a big man, but that is only one aspect. Areas such as mic skills & such must be taken into account. Though Taker rarities on the mic is good, he unfortunately cannot do this on a regular basis or through sustained periods of time in character. Look at his promos prior to WM25 on his fued HBK. He botched two lines in a crucial promo & the initial mic time given he went out of character a little to be human & speak of the streak.
Though I would say he is the best big man, there are others like Andre that can & will put up a big fight.
EDIT: Whoever voted for 'Taker sucks should really take a second thought at their vote. Im no Undertaker fan, but he is an absolutely phenomenal wrestler, entertainer & worker.
taker_for_life
Dark Match Jobber
Yea I'm going to have to go with a big ol' Yes.
Ok lets look at why.
1) how many guys do u know who do a running suicide dive over the top rope?? I would like u to name a "Hig flyer" who does one.
2)Change. may not be lots but changing ur arsenal keeps u fresh and helps u adapt.
3) time away. 'taker takes time off after 2 or 3 years to heal up before he needs surgery. It also keeps him fresh with the fans.
taker has it all. no one comes close to him.
yes as one guy said kane with his mask but the WWE ruined that.
Ok lets look at why.
1) how many guys do u know who do a running suicide dive over the top rope?? I would like u to name a "Hig flyer" who does one.
2)Change. may not be lots but changing ur arsenal keeps u fresh and helps u adapt.
3) time away. 'taker takes time off after 2 or 3 years to heal up before he needs surgery. It also keeps him fresh with the fans.
taker has it all. no one comes close to him.
yes as one guy said kane with his mask but the WWE ruined that.
The Undertaker is arguably the best big man to ever compete in the WWE, yes. Though first off, I would like to say that 'Taker became (in my eyes) a truly phenomenal talent when he returned at Wrestlemania 20....from this point on he started to wrestle a different style, he became more than just your typical big man competitor. All of a sudden he started introducing more submissions into his arsenal and evolved into one of the best wrestlers ever...not just one of the best big men.
I will admit, the Undertaker wrestled a slow and lathargic style during the first significant period of his career (he was always one of Vince's top stars, yes, but I truly believe that since returning at 'Mania 20 that he has really come into his own....he went from being a talented big man to an exceptionally talented big man).
I like how the Undertaker frequently now takes time off to allow his body to heal and take the time to freshen up....but, I would say the Undertaker has a strong case to be considered as one of, if not the best big man ever to compete in the WWE (although, yes that is a bold statement to make as guys like Bam Bam Bigelow and Vader should be considered). Funny thing is though, I no longer view him as one of the best big men ever but simply as one of the best ever...
I will admit, the Undertaker wrestled a slow and lathargic style during the first significant period of his career (he was always one of Vince's top stars, yes, but I truly believe that since returning at 'Mania 20 that he has really come into his own....he went from being a talented big man to an exceptionally talented big man).
I like how the Undertaker frequently now takes time off to allow his body to heal and take the time to freshen up....but, I would say the Undertaker has a strong case to be considered as one of, if not the best big man ever to compete in the WWE (although, yes that is a bold statement to make as guys like Bam Bam Bigelow and Vader should be considered). Funny thing is though, I no longer view him as one of the best big men ever but simply as one of the best ever...
Yea I'm going to have to go with a big ol' Yes.
Ok lets look at why.
1) how many guys do u know who do a running suicide dive over the top rope?? I would like u to name a "Hig flyer" who does one.
There are several large wrestlers who have been known to perform high flying moves, and several who are far better at it. Vader's agility puts Undertaker to shame.
...Is that even English? I have no idea of what you're trying to say here. He's the best big man because he's added 2 or 3 new moves to his in-ring work over 20 years? That's a pretty shit argument.
...How does that make him the best big man ever? You're saying because he milks his injuries that makes him the best big-man of all time? I don't even need to address how little sense that makes.
There's someone here who might have something to say about all this, perhaps you'll recognize him:
The perfect wrestling package. Agility, power, submission, any game you want to play he can do it. Probably the toughest son of a bitch to ever lace up a pair of wrestling boots. Anyone who has to pop back in their own eyeball, and does so with no problem, is a fucking beast.
I understand everyone's love for 'Taker, and he's without a doubt one of the best of all time, but Vader is better in every way. Where the hell is IC when you need him here?
So to answer the thread's question, no, 'Taker is not. Vader is superior in every way a wrestler can be.
There are several large wrestlers who have been known to perform high flying moves, and several who are far better at it. Vader's agility puts Undertaker to shame.
...Is that even English? I have no idea of what you're trying to say here. He's the best big man because he's added 2 or 3 new moves to his in-ring work over 20 years? That's a pretty shit argument.
...How does that make him the best big man ever? You're saying because he milks his injuries that makes him the best big-man of all time? I don't even need to address how little sense that makes.
There's someone here who might have something to say about all this, perhaps you'll recognize him:
The perfect wrestling package. Agility, power, submission, any game you want to play he can do it. Probably the toughest son of a bitch to ever lace up a pair of wrestling boots. Anyone who has to pop back in their own eyeball, and does so with no problem, is a fucking beast.
I understand everyone's love for 'Taker, and he's without a doubt one of the best of all time, but Vader is better in every way. Where the hell is IC when you need him here?
So to answer the thread's question, no, 'Taker is not. Vader is superior in every way a wrestler can be.
I really would like for you tell me how Vader is better than 'Taker! "It's time, It's time, It's Va..............time for you to come off of whatever you are on. 'Taker just isn't the best big man of all time, he is, arguably, the best of all time. 'Taker has been at it for 20 years and still manages to be relevant. He has changed his character, appearance, style, etc, etc. He has even added a few finishers or two.
How many times have you seen Vader do a swan dive over the top rope? Walk across the top rope, do a drop kick, flying clothesline or any of that? All Vader had was power moves and a big belly flop off the middle rope. Vader isn't anything compared to 'Taker. I think that you should leave this thread and allow grown ups to continue talking.
Sure thing, it won't be very difficult.
And how do any of those things make the Undertaker a better wrestler than Vader?
Several times actually. Vader is quite the agile big man, which you clearly wouldn't know because it's obvious you have very little knowledge of wrestling history.
One of his most famous moves is a fucking moonsault. That involves the top rope, does it not?
Quite frequently actually. Wow you really have NO idea of what you're talking about do you? Please don't attempt to argue someone if you have little understanding of the subject material. You're arguing with me that Vader isn't agile, when two of his finishers involved the top rope. Clearly you've never seen very many Vader matches.
Vader is far more agile than 'Taker has ever been. Taker can jump over some ropes and walk on them? Big deal. Have you EVER seen Taker do a moonsault? No. Never. Whereas Vader, a man who weighed 150 pounds more than the Undertaker, would do them on a nightly basis.
Vader: 1
Taker: 0
Again, why are you attempting to debate me when you clearly have no fucking clue of what you're talking about? Vader had one of the most eclectic move sets in the business has ever seen, he did things no big man has EVER done, or probably ever will. Go on, I'll give you the time to go look up what the word "eclectic" means, hurry on back. The fact that you don't realize this is rather indicative of your wrestling knowledge (or rather, your complete and total lack of wrestling knowledge).
Grown ups? Please kid, you've already proven to everyone here you know absolutely nothing about professional wrestling. Has the Undertaker ever held 3 different Heavyweight championships from 3 different continents simultaneously? No. Vader has.
When you decide to attempt another feeble "argument", I'll be here kindly waiting to embarrass you once again.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
I am a big Undertaker fan and I wouldn’t consider him the best “Big Man” ever. That title would go to and belongs to Vader. As a matter of fact, Vader is the undisputed best “Big Man” to ever enter a wrestling ring.
Vader weighs in at over 450 pounds and he can do many things a normal person can’t. Yes, Vader isn’t normal. He’s a beast. A fucking beast. First take a look at this video starting at 1:15:
That is enough prove on why Vader is the undisputed best “Big Man” ever in pro-wrestling. I have never seen someone his size and weight do a moonsault. Never. But, that’s not the only reason he is a better “Big Man” than ‘Taker.
Vader is more agile. Now don’t get me wrong, ‘Taker is pretty agile himself but Vader is just a way more agile man. Not many wrestlers can move the way he does. The only men you will probably find that are more agile than him are “High Flyers” and that isn’t fair because they are way smaller than him. But if you look for a wrestler that is more agile than him and is the same size, then you will have to look very hard because there is only a select few who are more agile.
Next reason, Vader is as tough as nails. Not many men in wrestling can say they are nearly as tough as him. If you want prove then here it is, start watching at 3:45:
In case you decided to not see the videos then I’ll tell you what happen. Vader’s eye popped out. Yes, you read that right: His eye popped out in that match with Stan Hansen in Japan. But what’s more impressive is the fact that he popped the eye back in and continue the match. He continued the match like nothing had happened. Now, find someone who has had their eye popped out by force and continued a wrestling match. I don’t think you’ll find anyone.
Now Ladies and Gentlemen I ask you, do you still consider The Undertaker the best “Big Man” ever or has your mind changed and you consider Vader the best “Big Man” ever in wrestling.
Vader weighs in at over 450 pounds and he can do many things a normal person can’t. Yes, Vader isn’t normal. He’s a beast. A fucking beast. First take a look at this video starting at 1:15:
[youtube] <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w2CDxJpXvwo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w2CDxJpXvwo&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]
That is enough prove on why Vader is the undisputed best “Big Man” ever in pro-wrestling. I have never seen someone his size and weight do a moonsault. Never. But, that’s not the only reason he is a better “Big Man” than ‘Taker.
Vader is more agile. Now don’t get me wrong, ‘Taker is pretty agile himself but Vader is just a way more agile man. Not many wrestlers can move the way he does. The only men you will probably find that are more agile than him are “High Flyers” and that isn’t fair because they are way smaller than him. But if you look for a wrestler that is more agile than him and is the same size, then you will have to look very hard because there is only a select few who are more agile.
Next reason, Vader is as tough as nails. Not many men in wrestling can say they are nearly as tough as him. If you want prove then here it is, start watching at 3:45:
[youtube] <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AmK8mt4QWBg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AmK8mt4QWBg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]
In case you decided to not see the videos then I’ll tell you what happen. Vader’s eye popped out. Yes, you read that right: His eye popped out in that match with Stan Hansen in Japan. But what’s more impressive is the fact that he popped the eye back in and continue the match. He continued the match like nothing had happened. Now, find someone who has had their eye popped out by force and continued a wrestling match. I don’t think you’ll find anyone.
Now Ladies and Gentlemen I ask you, do you still consider The Undertaker the best “Big Man” ever or has your mind changed and you consider Vader the best “Big Man” ever in wrestling.
Taker's not the best big man out there. I just got schooled on this shit, and some people (as seen from the guy that told x to run along). Vader fixed his fucking EYE on a match whilst wrestling YET ANOTHER big guy! who does that shit? seriously. Taker's just the perfect example of how a guy can make one good gimmick and make it last. But Taker's not the best big man ever.
Moonsaults > Swan Dives. Thus, mathematically speaking: Vader>Taker
Moonsaults > Swan Dives. Thus, mathematically speaking: Vader>Taker
Nice evidence to support your vader theory. I loved the videos. They actually helped prove my point. Every single one of the moves in that video package where high impact big man power moves, except for the moonsault(that was cool to see a big man do that). I want to see some swan dives and off the top clotheslines and drop kicks and things like that. Also, where was Vader's tenure. How long was he relevant? Again, 'Taker has managed to be in the spotlight for 20 years! Remember, professional wrestling is more than wrestling itself.
'Taker is more than just a gimmick. He is a legend and a legacy in the WWE. I will admit that I didn't know much about Vader before now, however, I do consider myself a student of the game and I am happy that I was able to learn something. But the fact is, when I was doing my initial research on the matter, I didn't even think to look Vader up. I mean I heard of him, but I guess he just wasn't that big of a name to warrant any attention to.
'Taker is more than just a gimmick. He is a legend and a legacy in the WWE. I will admit that I didn't know much about Vader before now, however, I do consider myself a student of the game and I am happy that I was able to learn something. But the fact is, when I was doing my initial research on the matter, I didn't even think to look Vader up. I mean I heard of him, but I guess he just wasn't that big of a name to warrant any attention to.
hArdyPUNKmArk
I'm better than you!
I wasn't into wrestling back in the Vader days but fuck me that was some epic shit.
HAHAHAHHA You douche, do you even realise whore your debating with, you are owned buddy. Get your facts straight before starting a debate with the more established guys on here otherwise as you just found out youll be embarrassed.
Anyways onto the topic.
I would say out of the wrestlers Ive watched in my time as a WWE fan Undertaker may be the best big man that Ive seen but after what ST just showed its obvious Vader was a fucking monster that could hit you from anywhere, fuck, he was an agile bastard and he was HUGE.
Im not going to try and debate it coz Im not too familiar with Vaders full arsenal but honestly that shit on youtube made a pretty strong argument on his part.
A moonsault . Fuck. Putting his eye back in . Fuck.
HAHAHAHHA You douche, do you even realise whore your debating with, you are owned buddy. Get your facts straight before starting a debate with the more established guys on here otherwise as you just found out youll be embarrassed.Anyways onto the topic.
I would say out of the wrestlers Ive watched in my time as a WWE fan Undertaker may be the best big man that Ive seen but after what ST just showed its obvious Vader was a fucking monster that could hit you from anywhere, fuck, he was an agile bastard and he was HUGE.
Im not going to try and debate it coz Im not too familiar with Vaders full arsenal but honestly that shit on youtube made a pretty strong argument on his part.
A moonsault . Fuck. Putting his eye back in . Fuck.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
First of all, when has The Undertaker ever done a drop kick? I have never seen him do one and unless you can prove it with video evidence then there’s no reason to bring stuff up like that.
Second of all the video I posted was only a fraction of the moves he can do. That’s the only I found with the moonsault so I posted that one. I will post another video so you can see that he doesn’t only do High Impact moves.
Third of all, a man Vader’s size doing a moonsault is way more impressive than a swan dive or a top rope clothesline.
But since apparently Vader only does High Impact moves then take a look at this video:
[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/q0FNGOoMkRg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/q0FNGOoMkRg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]
Notice he did all types of different moves. He did high flying moves such as the moonsault, drop kicks, frog splashes, and others. The Undertaker only does a swan dive, a top rope walk (if that's even considered high flying), and a swan dive. None of those things beat the things Vader could do.
Vader has been relevant for basically his entire wrestling career excluding his few years in the WWF. He has been relevant in the US, Japan, and other countries. He is the only man in the history of wrestling to win World Champions in 3 continents if I’m not mistaken.
The reason with him not being that big name in the US is because during his stay with the WWF, Vince didn’t know how to use Vader. This is the reason why he was successful in other countries and in WCW. Since not as many people were watching WCW during his time there he’s not consider a big name in the US. But the difference between his time in the WWF and his time elsewhere is that in those other place they knew that they should just let him do his thing. During his stay in the WWF he was very limited. He wasn’t allowed to do things he would regularly do in Japan.
The fact remains that Vader is a better Big Man. It’s not even arguable.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
<rolls up his sleeves>
So, my good friend X shot me a message this morning, alerting me to this thread, and claiming its DESPERATE need for my attention. Well, now that I've arrived, I can only say that X actually understated the importance of my intervention.
Before I get to my argument and reaction to other posts, let me outline the items I will attempt to explain:
1. The Undertaker is NOT the best "big man" ever.
2. Big Van Vader was a superior "big man" to the Undertaker.
3. Undertaker is the most successful big man ever.
4. Being the most successful does not make one the best.
I consider a big man to be either 6'8 or bigger, or 300 lbs or bigger, or both. Undertaker is listed at 6'10 and 299 lbs, though it's well known that he has wrestled as high up as 315 lbs. And he's been great at it.
I think it's also worth mentioning that Vader's moonsault doesn't make him the best big man ever. It certainly lends credibility in the agility department, and in terms of agile big men, there's Vader, Bigelow, Taker, and then everyone else. But it was Vader's total body of work as a career big man that solidified him.
The job of a "big man" heel is to ellicit fear and loathing from the fans. Fear that their favorite wrestler may not make it out of the ring alive tonight. Now, Vader was VERY fortunate to get to work with someone who had the talent, humility, and knowledge of Sting. These two put together one of the 10 best feuds on wrestling history as I see it. Vader made a career out of working sick feuds with men such as Sting, Cactus Jack, Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, and Hulk Hogan. Look at those 5 names - they match up with the top 5 names you could give me from Undertaker's list, with the exception of Simmons. Vader worked each of those matches as a flawless big man. He was brutal, dangerous, ruthless, and fearsome. He left the guy you cheered for in a heep, and as a young fan, you hated him for it, but you were terrified of him doing it again.
Vader accomplished this feat with a mix of amazing athleticism and cruel brutality. And Vader put that string together for his entire career.
When Undertaker was truly a brutal, evil big man, his athleticism didn't always shine through. When he debuted through his 2nd year with WWF, he was as terrifying as anyone I've ever seen. He stalked the ring like a slasher villain, and choked his opponents to a 7-count because the referee feared for his life. Finally, he tombstoned the poor sumbitch and bagged the body. When he beat Hogan at Survivor Series, kids cried. But he wasn't the athletic marvel yet, because all he really did was choke, punch, no-sell, and tombstone.
The worst thing that could have happened to Undertaker, did - he went babyface. After dismantling Jake Roberts, he was systematically booked in feuds that made him a smaller man. Kamala. Giant Gonzalez. Yokozuna. For three years, Undertaker was the smaller underdog, not the "big man."
Vader never stopped being the dominant big man. He locked up a winning record against Sting, brutalizing him in the process. He massacred Cactus Jack - yes, THE hardcore legend, in a Texas Death match, in Jack's prime. He beat Antonio Inoki in 3 minutes at the Tokyo Dome. He kicked out of Hulk Hogan's legdrop at a one-count. He broke Ron Simmon's shoulder. He popped his own eye back into its socket before finishing a match with the under rater Stan Hansen. Fans still feared Vader. Fans turned Undertaker into a plush doll.
There are two points that people are giving Undertaker far too freely. Success and longevity. Both are hugely important, but before giving 'Taker the big man title, I think it's important to recognize a few factors.
1. Undertaker's success is, at least in part, a bi-product of his loyalty to a very ego-centric owner. Shawn Michaels and Undertaker are both revered in the WWE as legends of the ring, but the one thing those men have in common that few others share is the fact that they worked for WWF/E the entire time, and never jumped ship. They didn't start a major career elsewhere (Mark Calloway did, technically, start in WCW in '89 but they missed the boat on him) and then go to WWF with an ego a in their bags. Vince's ego rewards that loyalty. Had WCW won the war with WWF, we'd be having a different discussion.
2. The Undertaker has spent basically his entire career in North America. Sure, Undertaker is the "bigger legend" in the US, because that's where he has remained. Ask a Japanese wrestling fan who the bigger legend is - they will tell you it is Vader. As a Mexican wrestling fan. Vader again. German fan? Vader. Because he has been a world champion in all of those places. AND a 3-time champion in the US.
Okay, wait, so being injury prone is a benefit? Tell that to Hardcore Holly or Mr. Kennedy. It's impressive that Taker has come back from injuries, but it's another to say that his time off to heal his battered body has ADDED to his legacy.
Gosh, so YOU are Taker's #1 fan? He must be so proud.
X and SavageTaker have already owned you in this thread, and you've already recanted many of these statements, but I had to quote this out of sheer ridiculousness. This statement is the very definition of one talking out of one's ass. and then to be haughty and indignant to boot? (look them up, they're "grown up" words.)
So Undertaker does a suicide dive? Brilliant, in fact, he nearly killed himself at Wrestlemania 20 doing it. And he's been out since then. Great, in exchange for HIS agility you lose 3-6 months per year to injuries. Meanwhile, Vader executes nearly flawless middle- and top-rope moves to opponents, has absolutely his drop kicks, etc. But here's the thing - why would Vader want to do a drop kick or a suicide dive? That would make NO SENSE for a man his size. He would massacre opponents with strikes, suplexes, and power slams, and only when the opponent was prone, would Vader finish the job with the high-impact moonsault, Vader Bomb, Big Van Crush, etc. He took SMART risks, because he's a big man. Undertaker took STUPID risks despite being a big man.
And the top rope walk? It's as ridiculous as your argument. It's the opponents job to hold Taker up, providing balance and resistance with a stiffened arm. And what does Taker do from that position. A single-axe-handle to the shoulder, which MAYBE drops an opponents to one knee for 2 seconds. Ohhh, scary.
I have a number of other arguments in Vader's favor, but I will save them in case someone is feeling confident enough to rebutt me. I do want to make one thing clear, though - my argument does not intend to put down or discredit the impressive career 'Taker has had. I am simply showing you all that there is a better all-around big man out there, and that 'Taker may be just a touch over rated.
So, my good friend X shot me a message this morning, alerting me to this thread, and claiming its DESPERATE need for my attention. Well, now that I've arrived, I can only say that X actually understated the importance of my intervention.
Before I get to my argument and reaction to other posts, let me outline the items I will attempt to explain:
1. The Undertaker is NOT the best "big man" ever.
2. Big Van Vader was a superior "big man" to the Undertaker.
3. Undertaker is the most successful big man ever.
4. Being the most successful does not make one the best.
I consider a big man to be either 6'8 or bigger, or 300 lbs or bigger, or both. Undertaker is listed at 6'10 and 299 lbs, though it's well known that he has wrestled as high up as 315 lbs. And he's been great at it.
I think it's also worth mentioning that Vader's moonsault doesn't make him the best big man ever. It certainly lends credibility in the agility department, and in terms of agile big men, there's Vader, Bigelow, Taker, and then everyone else. But it was Vader's total body of work as a career big man that solidified him.
The job of a "big man" heel is to ellicit fear and loathing from the fans. Fear that their favorite wrestler may not make it out of the ring alive tonight. Now, Vader was VERY fortunate to get to work with someone who had the talent, humility, and knowledge of Sting. These two put together one of the 10 best feuds on wrestling history as I see it. Vader made a career out of working sick feuds with men such as Sting, Cactus Jack, Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, and Hulk Hogan. Look at those 5 names - they match up with the top 5 names you could give me from Undertaker's list, with the exception of Simmons. Vader worked each of those matches as a flawless big man. He was brutal, dangerous, ruthless, and fearsome. He left the guy you cheered for in a heep, and as a young fan, you hated him for it, but you were terrified of him doing it again.
Vader accomplished this feat with a mix of amazing athleticism and cruel brutality. And Vader put that string together for his entire career.
When Undertaker was truly a brutal, evil big man, his athleticism didn't always shine through. When he debuted through his 2nd year with WWF, he was as terrifying as anyone I've ever seen. He stalked the ring like a slasher villain, and choked his opponents to a 7-count because the referee feared for his life. Finally, he tombstoned the poor sumbitch and bagged the body. When he beat Hogan at Survivor Series, kids cried. But he wasn't the athletic marvel yet, because all he really did was choke, punch, no-sell, and tombstone.
The worst thing that could have happened to Undertaker, did - he went babyface. After dismantling Jake Roberts, he was systematically booked in feuds that made him a smaller man. Kamala. Giant Gonzalez. Yokozuna. For three years, Undertaker was the smaller underdog, not the "big man."
Vader never stopped being the dominant big man. He locked up a winning record against Sting, brutalizing him in the process. He massacred Cactus Jack - yes, THE hardcore legend, in a Texas Death match, in Jack's prime. He beat Antonio Inoki in 3 minutes at the Tokyo Dome. He kicked out of Hulk Hogan's legdrop at a one-count. He broke Ron Simmon's shoulder. He popped his own eye back into its socket before finishing a match with the under rater Stan Hansen. Fans still feared Vader. Fans turned Undertaker into a plush doll.
There are two points that people are giving Undertaker far too freely. Success and longevity. Both are hugely important, but before giving 'Taker the big man title, I think it's important to recognize a few factors.
1. Undertaker's success is, at least in part, a bi-product of his loyalty to a very ego-centric owner. Shawn Michaels and Undertaker are both revered in the WWE as legends of the ring, but the one thing those men have in common that few others share is the fact that they worked for WWF/E the entire time, and never jumped ship. They didn't start a major career elsewhere (Mark Calloway did, technically, start in WCW in '89 but they missed the boat on him) and then go to WWF with an ego a in their bags. Vince's ego rewards that loyalty. Had WCW won the war with WWF, we'd be having a different discussion.
2. The Undertaker has spent basically his entire career in North America. Sure, Undertaker is the "bigger legend" in the US, because that's where he has remained. Ask a Japanese wrestling fan who the bigger legend is - they will tell you it is Vader. As a Mexican wrestling fan. Vader again. German fan? Vader. Because he has been a world champion in all of those places. AND a 3-time champion in the US.
taker_for_life said:
Okay, wait, so being injury prone is a benefit? Tell that to Hardcore Holly or Mr. Kennedy. It's impressive that Taker has come back from injuries, but it's another to say that his time off to heal his battered body has ADDED to his legacy.
Undertaker's#1Fan said:
Gosh, so YOU are Taker's #1 fan? He must be so proud.
X and SavageTaker have already owned you in this thread, and you've already recanted many of these statements, but I had to quote this out of sheer ridiculousness. This statement is the very definition of one talking out of one's ass. and then to be haughty and indignant to boot? (look them up, they're "grown up" words.)
So Undertaker does a suicide dive? Brilliant, in fact, he nearly killed himself at Wrestlemania 20 doing it. And he's been out since then. Great, in exchange for HIS agility you lose 3-6 months per year to injuries. Meanwhile, Vader executes nearly flawless middle- and top-rope moves to opponents, has absolutely his drop kicks, etc. But here's the thing - why would Vader want to do a drop kick or a suicide dive? That would make NO SENSE for a man his size. He would massacre opponents with strikes, suplexes, and power slams, and only when the opponent was prone, would Vader finish the job with the high-impact moonsault, Vader Bomb, Big Van Crush, etc. He took SMART risks, because he's a big man. Undertaker took STUPID risks despite being a big man.
And the top rope walk? It's as ridiculous as your argument. It's the opponents job to hold Taker up, providing balance and resistance with a stiffened arm. And what does Taker do from that position. A single-axe-handle to the shoulder, which MAYBE drops an opponents to one knee for 2 seconds. Ohhh, scary.
I have a number of other arguments in Vader's favor, but I will save them in case someone is feeling confident enough to rebutt me. I do want to make one thing clear, though - my argument does not intend to put down or discredit the impressive career 'Taker has had. I am simply showing you all that there is a better all-around big man out there, and that 'Taker may be just a touch over rated.
<tags in after IC25, X, and SavageTaker are done with their beat-downs>
Citizens of Wrestlezone.com, LEND ME YOUR EARS!!
IC25, X, and Savagetaker. 'Nuff said.
Welcome to the wool that the WWE pulls over our eyes. Everyone voting here needs to remember a few things... The largest wrestling company in the world is also the smartest wrestling company in the world. Even though the majority of their talent pool is the best in the world in specific categories, not ALL of it is.
The WWE has a unique, impressive talent in the Undertaker, and they do whatever they can to make him look like the greatest thing since sliced bread. These things consist of everything from making his in-ring moveset look overly impressive and unstoppable, to his 17-0 record at Wrestlemania. Their job is to take their talent pool and make them so relevant and impressive that you forget that legends like Sting, Angle, and Vader actually still exist or HAVE existed in the past. The WWE wants to close off the outside world of professional wrestling and make you think that we all need to stay under their blanket.
With all of this being said, everyone that wishes to vote in this poll needs to look and have knowledge outside of the WWE before voting. The arguments that IC25, X, and SavageTaker have bestowed upon us explain everything you need to know to come to an intelligent decision. The problem with our current day and age in professional wrestling is the complete and utter ignorance displayed by most of the younger members of the IWC that don't have a clue that a world has existed outside of the WWE, the Attitude Era, and the United States of America. They all assume that since the WWE is the top company in the world and the Undertaker is one of their top stars, then that must mean that the Undertaker is the best in his size and weight class. Bravo to the WWE... they've succeeded in their brainwashing techniques.
Vader is clearly the most dominating Super Heavyweight in the history of professional wrestling. Anyone who thinks differently needs to rememeber the world that exists outside of the WWE and they need to start catching up on their pro-wrestling history.
I think it probably does. What? That's my entire argument. I mean, that's why "best wrestler" thread are normally enshrined in the weird plasma of Hulkamania, are they not?
Well, my actual argument was going to be how The Undertaker doesn't actually qualify as a big man and The Big Show is actually the best big man ever, but you sucked the fun out of that.
It's been a long day, alright?