That last part didn't make any sense. Of course it's more believable for Punk to hoist a man of Daniel Bryan's size over his head than Cena or dare I say a man of Kane's size or bigger. I don't think anyone is saying Punk isn't over or that he is somehow not a talented entertainer. I don't think anyone wants Punk to balloon back up to his developmental weight either. But if I were a big 300 pounder I wouldn't destroy my credibility by letting him do power moves on me. Punk's not a power wrestler, but he performs an amazing feat of "strength" every time one of these big guys lets him finish them off with the GTS. The announcers should capitalize on this. "Look at the power of that twig boy!". No, bad idea. He should probably just use a different finisher on anyone over 260 pounds. But then again, why should he? Nobody is ever going to call him on it. They're just going to shout down the critics and call them idiots as you just did.
Is CM Punk too small?
- Thread starter Mouthy Idiot
- Start date
That last part didn't make any sense. Of course it's more believable for Punk to hoist a man of Daniel Bryan's size over his head than Cena or dare I say a man of Kane's size or bigger. I don't think anyone is saying Punk isn't over or that he is somehow not a talented entertainer. I don't think anyone wants Punk to balloon back up to his developmental weight either. But if I were a big 300 pounder I wouldn't destroy my credibility by letting him do power moves on me. Punk's not a power wrestler, but he performs an amazing feat of "strength" every time one of these big guys lets him finish them off with the GTS. The announcers should capitalize on this. "Look at the power of that twig boy!". No, bad idea. He should probably just use a different finisher on anyone over 260 pounds. But then again, why should he? Nobody is ever going to call him on it. They're just going to shout down the critics and call them idiots as you just did.
louchratis
Occasional Pre-Show
I think Punk is the size that he is for two reasons. One is obviously genetics. He has a very normal bone structure that is definitely not the prototype for what a stereotypical pro wrestler often has. The other is the fact that he doesn't take a bunch of supplements as part of the whole straight edge mentality. Guys like Otunga, Cena, and pretty much every guy in the WWE locker room load up on supplements while Punk has avoided that in favor of more of a natural approach. It hasn't affected his wrestling ability at all though, so I'm not sure why anyone decided to even make this a topic of conversation.
KnowYoRole
Getting Noticed By Management
He's obviously not too small, since he's achieved a shitload more than people much bigger than him.
Here we go again...comparing an actual competitive sport to professional wrestling.
what am i supposed to compare it too. MMA is just a shoot version of wrestling. If you want to see if in a fight too men of those size could have a competitive match, just look for it in mma. Thats why I think punk isn't too small.
Have you ever tried lifting a 200+ pound man over your shoulders after spending the past 15 minutes fighting him and hoist him up with the greatest of ease? No, you haven't, because that is a ridiculous notion. So is expecting a guy to lie flat on the mat for 10 seconds while CM Punk ascends to the top turn buckle, poses for the crowd, and then drops an elbow. So is the idea that either Punk or his opponent can withstand a series of unprotected strikes and still be standing on their feet, only slightly worse for wear.
If you're going to suspend your belief enough so that even some of the most trivial stuff in wrestling is suddenly believable, you might as well suspend it so that lifting a 280 pound guy is just as plausible as lifting a 250 pound guy. More difficult? Absolutely, but definitely not impossible.
Same answer as above. Nobody watches wrestling to see a realistic fight, they watch it to see a fantasy fight where some really cool shit happens. If you're going to start criticizing realism in wrestling then you're going to have to start criticizing every top rope move, every unprotected strike, and every Irish whip.
Some of the best matches in WWE history feature CM Punk and John Cena, and nobody watching those matches was sitting at home thinking, "Man, this is okay, but I don't really buy that CM Punk could piledrive John Cena." They were saying, "Holy cow! CM Punk just used a piledriver on John Cena! This is unbelievable!"
Realism in wrestling is just something the IWC made up so they have something to complain about. Fact of the matter is that the best entertainers make us forget all about realism. Look at Hogan: he made a simple leg drop look like the deadliest move in the world. All the best wrestler manage to captivate us and forget all about the rules of the real world. Stone Cold did it. The Rock did it. John Cena does it. CM Punk does it.
The Butcher
ð¶
I'm actually with dman1373 on this one. The comparison is relevant because if a smaller fighter can succeed in a legit fight, then it follows that a smaller fighter can succeed in a phony one. I fail to see the issue in making that comparison. Sure, wrestling isn't a real sport, but that makes it all the more likely that a smaller guy can beat much larger opponents.
and you cant use the perception of fighting skills in wrestling to be credible? I actually think wrestling can have a wider range of sizes than mma because of wrestlers being able to be run more, use top rope, rope breaks, and closed fists being illegal.
One to Remember
Championship Contender
Wrestling and WWE aren't one in the same.. All WWE is wrestling but not all wrestling is WWE.. He is small compared to atheletes in other/ALL combat sports who compete for Heavyweight titles. Despite the fact that WWE is about a predetermined athletic competition the characters/players still need to look appropriate and be appropriate. Wrestling needs to be able to put up credible athletes against collegiate wrestlers, kickboxers, boxers, and UFC guys. There needs to be potential and credible crossover between all those sports.
I dont care how many of you want to make that now classic statement "oh it doesn't matter the cat's been out of the bag" the bottom line is to an outside observer the sport needs to on its face atleast look legitimate and realistic. Its okay to have these size discrepancies but when two wrestlers get caught talking to each other in a match that footage gets countless youtube views and endless ridicule and condemnation. We can't discuss the unrealness then suspend disbelief in willy nilly fashion, it can't be both at once.
What in the bloody hell are you talking about? Your example to why Punk's build doesn't matter is a sport/company that adheres to STRICT WEIGHT CLASS segregation.
Which UFC heavyweight champions are you refering to, which era, what time frame? Lesnar, Valasquez are about the same size, punk is not their size. Shamrock is a bit closer to Punk's size but not too far from Lesnar's. But then Gacie is closer to Punk's size. It would be better to compare pro wrestling to collegiate wrestling rather then MMA or kickboxing.
Exactly what i was going to say.
Size doesn't completely matter anymore because being huge and expecting that to make you look like the best is not how fighting works. It IS NOT BELIEVABLE. If Rey Mysterio had Ryback in an armbar for real, the fact that Ryback could lift like 500lbs would mean literally nothing. If you literally cannot suspend disbelief because someone is smaller, you are just stupid.
Look at Velasquez, Brock had like 40 pounds on him, but Velasquez was more skilled (despite having less physical strength) so it didn't matter. No one in the UFC, people who are real fighters come in looking like WWE stars.
Even despite this, Punk is still an impressive physical specimen, i have no idea where you are finding the 'average' guy to be in his shape.
What in the bloody hell are you talking about? Your example to why Punk's build doesn't matter is a sport/company that adheres to STRICT WEIGHT CLASS segregation.
It would be better to compare pro wrestling to collegiate wrestling rather then MMA or kickboxing.
Lesnar and Velasquez are not the same size, not even close. Now that Lesnar doesn't have to cut weight, he probably comes into his WWE matches at like 60lbs heavier than Velasquez does for the UFC.
CM Punk is about 6'1' and 200lbs in real life, thats on par with UFC light-heavyweights. Thats about the same size as Anderson Silva when he isn't cutting weight for a fight. Are you going to suggest that Anderson Silva is not a believable threat?
Pro-wrestling has literally nothing in common with collegiate wrestling, thats ridiculous.
BillAlfonso
Getting Noticed By Management
In a street fight where the smaller guy has the freedom to do what he must, yes, he has a chance. What we're talking about is a sanctioned match that has rules and guidelines which dictates that the smaller fighter has to, in some way, take it to the larger fighter. It's highly unlikely that the smaller fighter would win, that's why combat sports have weight classes.
Anderson Silva is my favorite MMA fighter but, if you took him at his current weight, and sent him up against any of the marginal fighters in the heavyweight ranks, he'd get punished. He wouldn't have the strength to match any of theirs. He may catch them in a hold but they'd be more likely to power their way out of it. There's a reason why combat sports have weight classes. The difference in size and weight creates an imbalance between the fighters in each class.
The Butcher
ð¶
Oh, I see, so a smaller guy has a chance in a street fight, but not a legit fight. I guess nobody told that to Fedor or Roy Jones Jr. or Royce Gracie or any number of smaller fighters who dispatched much larger opponents with ease. Don't be dumb. Smaller guys can beat bigger guys.
What really baffles me about people's concern about Punk's size is that this guy has already gone toe-to-toe with behemoths like Undertaker, JBL, Khali, Big Show, and many others, and has always made a good account of himself, if not outright winning. Why is his size suddenly a concern now that he's a two-time WWE Champion, a two-time World Heavyweight Champion, and by acclamation one of the most gifted professional wrestlers of his, or arguably any, era? If anything, we should be lauding him for overcoming a lack of size and physique to become one of the best Superstars in WWE. Instead, in our never-ending quest to prove everyone who knocks the IWC to be right in their assessment of us, we nitpick and over-analyze.
Everyone who's making this an issue needs to get over his- or herself. CM Punk can beat whomever, regardless of size, because that's how he's booked. Simple as that. Throw out all the nonsense and just acknowledge that this shit is fake and anybody can beat anybody if the creative team decides that that's what they want to happen.
One to Remember
Championship Contender
i think we all need to understand that once your in the heavyweight division theres no splitting hairs. Theres a huge difference between a heavyweight fighting a super heavyweight as opposed to a crusierweight OR a light-heavyweight. taking on a heavyweight..
theres actually no comparisons that work with other sports. Again the closest is COLLEGIATE WRESTLING because it relies more on brute strength and grappling as well as holds.
IN BOXING CM Punk would be able to compensate with speed and punches aimed directly at the holes in his opponent's defense.
In kickboxing punk could rely on swift kicks to weak points in his opponents leg joints then work his way up. He still has the HEIGHT to make his way up his opponents body and in boxing he would be able to get good shots in because of the reach a 6'1 man usually has assuming thats his real height..
in MMA he might be able to use some of the moves Royce Gacie used between UFC 1 thru 4. He has the arn strength to put a guy like Big Show or Mark Henry in a choke hold if he can keep his grip regardless of how much they sway him. His only realistic offense would be either that or the movies taught to police to subdue people quickly.
In a collegiate bought he would be destroyed if he stayed in the heavyweight division..
You don't think a man can take those strikes and still be up you need to watch some footage of Jack Johnson in his prime.
Your point about the pile driver is even more weak. Any body who can't complete a powerbomb can turn that failure into a piledriver. Even when your opponent is 40 pounds heavier you just have to lean back and use his own weight against him with the help of gravity..
If you have this many doubts about the plausibility of moves why the hell don't you just have a shoot match with your friends and see if there is any impact when you give a legit leg drop or do a torture rack..
We can suspend disbelief when its reasonable OR AT LEAST plausible.. Even you would raise hell over Rey Mysterio giving Sheamus a jack knife power bomb..
theres actually no comparisons that work with other sports. Again the closest is COLLEGIATE WRESTLING because it relies more on brute strength and grappling as well as holds.
IN BOXING CM Punk would be able to compensate with speed and punches aimed directly at the holes in his opponent's defense.
In kickboxing punk could rely on swift kicks to weak points in his opponents leg joints then work his way up. He still has the HEIGHT to make his way up his opponents body and in boxing he would be able to get good shots in because of the reach a 6'1 man usually has assuming thats his real height..
in MMA he might be able to use some of the moves Royce Gacie used between UFC 1 thru 4. He has the arn strength to put a guy like Big Show or Mark Henry in a choke hold if he can keep his grip regardless of how much they sway him. His only realistic offense would be either that or the movies taught to police to subdue people quickly.
In a collegiate bought he would be destroyed if he stayed in the heavyweight division..
I've not seen any 15 minute matches, and rarely do.. Its not a rediculous notion, you can either lift it or you can't. If someone can bench 200 ten or fifteen times then they can lift a 200 pound man once even after going with him. If you've done your job in any fight the other guy is going to be sluggish and atleast dazed, in real fighting some arm drop in Macho Man fashion would be showboating but still doable if you harmed them enough.JGlass said:
You don't think a man can take those strikes and still be up you need to watch some footage of Jack Johnson in his prime.
His leg drop wasn't the kill shot it was the coup de grâce for an already weakened opponent. Nothing the Rock or Stone Cold did was unrealistic in any degree. They mostly punched then either slammed in the case of the Rock bottom or kicked in the gut in the case of the Stunner. You could do all of their moves in an actual fight and not lose ground over it.
Your point about the pile driver is even more weak. Any body who can't complete a powerbomb can turn that failure into a piledriver. Even when your opponent is 40 pounds heavier you just have to lean back and use his own weight against him with the help of gravity..
If you have this many doubts about the plausibility of moves why the hell don't you just have a shoot match with your friends and see if there is any impact when you give a legit leg drop or do a torture rack..
We can suspend disbelief when its reasonable OR AT LEAST plausible.. Even you would raise hell over Rey Mysterio giving Sheamus a jack knife power bomb..
BillAlfonso
Getting Noticed By Management
All those guys you mentioned beat bigger guys within their weight classes, why don't you think a little yourself.
You're acting as if WWE is a legit fight, Punk beat those guys because he was supposed to, do you really think that he could hold any of those guys in a submission hold if they didn't let him? We're not talking about booking, we're talking about how he looks and he doesn't look like he can beat the guys he beats regularly.
One to Remember
Championship Contender
Those are pure strike sports, anybody with a good right hook can compensate for being flimsy. Your comparison to Gacie is only valid if CM Punk was getting submission wins and not pins from brawling.
So whAT? I like Punk and its bothered me for YEARS. Its probably bothered everyone else here too. Just because we don't re affirm our viewpoint on his physique every day doesn't mean it doesn't bug us.. Undertaker and JBL aren't the same as Khali and Big Show. And a match against the Big Show wouldn't look as realistic as CM Punk vs the Giant circa 1996.. If the weight matches the opponent thats sufficient, if the height matches but the weight doesnt thats sufficient, if both match, ditto, if neither match there is an issue.
[quote[
Everyone who's making this an issue needs to get over his- or herself. CM Punk can beat whomever, regardless of size, because that's how he's booked. Simple as that. Throw out all the nonsense and just acknowledge that this shit is fake and anybody can beat anybody if the creative team decides that that's what they want to happen.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if its fake withen our universe because it has to have some type of merit withen the overall sports world. Just like Antonio Inoki's bout against Muhammad Ali had major buzz because he was viewed as a legit champion in a legit sport. They need to be able to sit on a couch beside a boxer or a UFC guy on a late night show and not look like a damn fool when the host asks who can beat who..
If Hornswaggle beat Lesnar for the WWE title that would destroy the sport, destroy Lesnar, and destroy the federation.. So don't think there arent ramifications for being too fictitious and circus.
Who is the IWC and how does one determine who is and who isn't in it? Is it as simple as being in a community, liking wrestling and having the internet? Maybe there should be some type of Godwin's Law type rule for whenever someone starts rambling about make belief groups with an unidentifiable membership.. I say your in the IWC because you had the audacity to say we were in the IWC..
punk is a black belt in mui tai and jujustu. If you dont think he could beat a miz or a cena in a fight your crazy.
One to Remember
Championship Contender
we dont see it so that doesnt matter. of course he could beat Miz and duhdaduh for Cena too but wtf does that have to do with Big Show, Henry, or others? u think its a 3 man roster with Miz, Cena, and Punk?
Epic fail, Muay Thai doesn't have a belt-ranking system! Typical CM Punk mark who reads the BS other Punk marks write and repeats it like an idiot. Get the hell out!
boywithbluehanger
I have to poop.
I think the only regard in which CM Punk is too small is when discussing the possibility of him ever becoming an iconic legend. Punk is well respected among wrestling fans and merely liked by casual fans. I feel that has everything to do with his uninspiring look. People continue to make the comparisons with Stone Cold saying that he was small as well. But Stone Cold wasn't that small. He still looked comparable (in size) to The Rock and Triple H. He might not have had the same muscle definition as those guys but when comparing girth and height, you could easily see that he was on an equal playing field. When comparing Punk against Cena or Ryback, you can't come to that same conclusion. He has the speaking ability and the endurance to put on lengthy and interesting matches but that's about it. There was a time (pre Nexus Part 2) where Punk had a solid gimmick as well but now he doesn't even have that. However I think his current lack of a concrete gimmick wouldn't matter so much if he had an awe-inspiring body type that matched his level of his promo/in-ring skill.
If he gets dropped back down to the midcard and readopts his "holier than thou", "Straight Edge means I'm better than you all!", baptizing "random people" from the crowd, gimmick, he'll have a great shot of being remembered as an iconic legend than if he continues playing with the "big boys" whilst not looking the part.
If he gets dropped back down to the midcard and readopts his "holier than thou", "Straight Edge means I'm better than you all!", baptizing "random people" from the crowd, gimmick, he'll have a great shot of being remembered as an iconic legend than if he continues playing with the "big boys" whilst not looking the part.
BillAlfonso
Getting Noticed By Management
The reason that Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kune Do, an amalgamation of various martial art styles, is because fighting styles alone mean nothing in a fight. So what if he knows muy thai? He still has to kick me. So what if ne know jiu-jitsu, he still has to put me in a hold. Even if he does, it's no guarantee that it would be effective especially if I have the size and weight to withstand his offense. By the way, Miz is a terrible example, he actually looks marginal to Punk.
Brahma_Bull9
Pre-Show Stalwart
What do you mean Steve Austin was like Punk in terms of physique. Stone Cold wasn't that toned, but he was a lot taller and his gimmick allowed him to get away with it. Punk is a straight edged flabby ill stop my self there. I agree Punk has in ring talent, but you guys on here over state how important it is to be a good stunt man. When he was trying to stare down the Rock he looked like a joke.
I thought this for awhile, and I am not a CM Punk fan I just decided I'd rather not get banned because so many, not all, CM Punk fans take it personally when you criticize the messiah. Go look up his incident with Shawne Merriman, yea he's trash on the field, but he would kill CM Punk in a fight. Punk is small and not toned at all. I don't blame him, I hate lifting weights too, but I also didn't decide to pursue a career in which that is critical to. Part of the reason why I quite playing sports seriously lol
Pay Per Ghost
What they f*ck happened in the thread section here
Heh! Nice little firecracker of a thread.
Here's what, I don't wanna see Brock vs Punk. Why? Punk isn't believable enough to go toe to toe with Lesnar.
Let me clarify:
See when people are smaller, they rectify that in their gimmick. Or they hit the gym and get bigger. If anyone remembers, Cena's arms, Eddie's arms used to be smaller when they were in the mid-card. When they were upcoming and heading towards the ME, they bulked up. See on TV, sitting at home, wrestlers look smaller, and it is a mean to fix that.
Also, people mold their gimmick to cover for their size. Angle was not exactly a small man, but his ruthlessness made you believe in him against a bear. So was Benoit. I believed in Benoit against Show coz he was so damn tenacious.
They also become dastardly heels, who cheat, use dirty tactics to win. And thats believable. Always believable.
Then there is Punk, Punk faced ADR, Miz, Jericho, D.Bry, Cena; turned heel, faced Ryback, Rock, Taker, in his 434 day reign. See how when he was face he was given smaller guys to take on PPVs, then as a dastardly heel he went up against big guys? Kinda big guys?
Punk is average sized, but if he turns face whilst facing Lesnar (which might happen), Lesnar should kill him. Lesnar is a beast, he has faced guys who look like they could bring it to him physically (H, Cena). Punk should never lose to Lesnar, not believable. Unless, there is a tweak in his character.
And for fuck's sake, YES PUNK IS OVER AND SELLS TICKETS! LET'S GET OVER THAT!
Here's what, I don't wanna see Brock vs Punk. Why? Punk isn't believable enough to go toe to toe with Lesnar.
Let me clarify:
See when people are smaller, they rectify that in their gimmick. Or they hit the gym and get bigger. If anyone remembers, Cena's arms, Eddie's arms used to be smaller when they were in the mid-card. When they were upcoming and heading towards the ME, they bulked up. See on TV, sitting at home, wrestlers look smaller, and it is a mean to fix that.
Also, people mold their gimmick to cover for their size. Angle was not exactly a small man, but his ruthlessness made you believe in him against a bear. So was Benoit. I believed in Benoit against Show coz he was so damn tenacious.
They also become dastardly heels, who cheat, use dirty tactics to win. And thats believable. Always believable.
Then there is Punk, Punk faced ADR, Miz, Jericho, D.Bry, Cena; turned heel, faced Ryback, Rock, Taker, in his 434 day reign. See how when he was face he was given smaller guys to take on PPVs, then as a dastardly heel he went up against big guys? Kinda big guys?
Punk is average sized, but if he turns face whilst facing Lesnar (which might happen), Lesnar should kill him. Lesnar is a beast, he has faced guys who look like they could bring it to him physically (H, Cena). Punk should never lose to Lesnar, not believable. Unless, there is a tweak in his character.
And for fuck's sake, YES PUNK IS OVER AND SELLS TICKETS! LET'S GET OVER THAT!
TheHitMark-SirJoseOle
A Fan Of Wrestling Not Backstage BS
No, I don't think CM Punk is too small. All that matters is that when he gets into the ring, does he make you believe he can stand toe to toe with the biggest and the baddest of the wrestling world? To me, every time I watch him, I truly believe he does. Not to say that I found all of his feuds enjoyable, i.e. the angle with Ryback I wasn't really sold on. But he did a great job as a heel outfoxing and outwitting him, again that's the heel's prerogative and Punk excelled with that. As a face, he was a very compelling underdog, his feud with JBL after winning his first World Title in 2008 showed just that. He's also held his own and done very well in his feuds with John Cena, Punk has a moveset and a heart whether as a fan favorite or rulebreaker that makes him a compelling character. Therefore, you can just throw size factor out the window.
After all, Shawn Michaels did an EXCELLENT job showcasing that quality in the mid-late 90s when he took on the likes of Vader, Undertaker, Sid, Diesel, Mankind and so on. Bret Hart did the same thing as well, his list of opponents such as Bam Bam Bigelow, Scott Hall, The Undertaker, and Diesel also show that like Shawn Michaels he excelled in David Vs Goliath battles. Therefore, in the event that Punk and Brock Lesnar ever do feud, I can very well see Punk utilizing those same attributes when it come to wrestling other behemoths in years past. Again, this is professional wrestling, there's always a storyline way to have Punk be able to overcome the insurmountable odds that would be placed against him in a match against Lesnar.
At the end of the day, I think that's the one thing we fans in the IWC as a whole tend to forget, that it doesn't always matter how big or small someone is, I will admit the bigger guys still make up a good segment of what WWE offers in the way of characters though. But if a character is compelling enough to make you believe in them, like a CM Punk has shown time and again, then the issue of size will not be relevant.
After all, Shawn Michaels did an EXCELLENT job showcasing that quality in the mid-late 90s when he took on the likes of Vader, Undertaker, Sid, Diesel, Mankind and so on. Bret Hart did the same thing as well, his list of opponents such as Bam Bam Bigelow, Scott Hall, The Undertaker, and Diesel also show that like Shawn Michaels he excelled in David Vs Goliath battles. Therefore, in the event that Punk and Brock Lesnar ever do feud, I can very well see Punk utilizing those same attributes when it come to wrestling other behemoths in years past. Again, this is professional wrestling, there's always a storyline way to have Punk be able to overcome the insurmountable odds that would be placed against him in a match against Lesnar.
At the end of the day, I think that's the one thing we fans in the IWC as a whole tend to forget, that it doesn't always matter how big or small someone is, I will admit the bigger guys still make up a good segment of what WWE offers in the way of characters though. But if a character is compelling enough to make you believe in them, like a CM Punk has shown time and again, then the issue of size will not be relevant.
There are two reasons why this argument is completely irrelevant
1. If wwe wanted a realistic or even semi realistic showing of size every 99% of big show and henerys opponents would be hospitalized after one or two punches.
2. Ok so he might not look strong but the likes of punk, bryan, jericho, micheals are some of the best workers in and out of the ring. It would just limit the amount of people they could use and wwe has the power to make or break anyone.
On a side now more then ever its not an issue because the wwe talent is as thin as all fuck, they need stars and cm punk along with cena are the only two big ones working full time, rybacks/sheamus/ del rio/ swags are pretty meh others like orton/bryan/ziggles have potential if used right but atm aren't much to sing about. So as they say beggars cant be chooses if you a top star at his point he's good regardless of size.
1. If wwe wanted a realistic or even semi realistic showing of size every 99% of big show and henerys opponents would be hospitalized after one or two punches.
2. Ok so he might not look strong but the likes of punk, bryan, jericho, micheals are some of the best workers in and out of the ring. It would just limit the amount of people they could use and wwe has the power to make or break anyone.
On a side now more then ever its not an issue because the wwe talent is as thin as all fuck, they need stars and cm punk along with cena are the only two big ones working full time, rybacks/sheamus/ del rio/ swags are pretty meh others like orton/bryan/ziggles have potential if used right but atm aren't much to sing about. So as they say beggars cant be chooses if you a top star at his point he's good regardless of size.