If Randy Orton didn't have famous relatives and/or HHH's backing, would he be Champ?

[PingPongBundy]

That's a tough one. Without the connections and backing, I think that his early issues would have gotten him fired years ago. Who knows if he would have ever come back from it. From a talent perspective, I would have to say a definite yes. He's got it all. From his look, to his athletic ability, to his astute sense of ring psychology, he is a definite winner when it comes to being talented.

 

[Zycho32]

If there wasn't a family connection, I would honestly have to say 'no'.

Not in terms of talent mind you, it's just that if his family had not been involved in wrestling beforehand, I'm not sure Randy would have ever looked into it as a profession. Unless someone can clarify whether or not Randy DID have an interest in wrestling before he tried to get into the business, i'm gonna have to go with a vague 'no' on that part.

Assuming the Ortons had a wrestling history but lacked the influence to get Randy in? He might've still had a place to prove himself in OVW, and he had enough of a look and talent to get called up to the big time. Though I would admit that I don't think his clout would've been enough to withstand the personal fuckups he committed during his time here. Unless there was a star vacuum bad enough to justify continuing to keep him onboard (and don't rule it out), I would say he'd have possibly been gone somewhere around the turn of the decade.

 

[RedRegan1005]

Did having wrestling in his family tree help him get into OVW? There's a good chance. I'm sure when WWE saw who his father and grandfather were they said, Okay lets give him a shot.

Did his backstage connections help him with the consequences of his out ring issues. Eh Possibly? Its probably more his standing in the company. He's a multiple time world champ, and has at times been the number 2 face in the company, or the number 1 heel in the company. When you're that high on the food chain you have a longer rope than others. But being a top company star usually means you're making Vince money and he's gonna like anyone who makes him, so yea like i said, possibly.

Did either his family or back stage connection help him with his success in WWE? AB-SO-LUTELY NOT. While some have there negative opinions on Randy Orton, he is, when motivated, great int he ring. If you want to say sometimes he phones it in during matches and doesn't go a hundred percent, then that's fair I can understand that opinion. But if you want to say that he's garbage between the rope, I can in NO WAY agree with that. It's just not true in my eyes. I think he's actually very good in the ring, if not one of top five guys when it comes to the main event scene in WWE. What has always stuck out to me is he has a great flow in the ring. The movements he makes all connect smoothly and without hiccups. Go back and watch some of the matches he's had with Dolph Ziggler. Those matches were great and it wasn't all Ziggler. It was cause both he and Ziggler are great in the ring. His success and title history can all be contributed to his ability. Is he gold on the mic? Not really, but he is better than some say, and has given his fair share of very good promos in the past (Not many recently since turning heel). He's worked hard, and been very good, since becoming a part of the WWE main roster and has deserved everything he's gotten.

If you still don't agree just look at some others who have had good family and/or backstage connections and look at their lack of success.
-Curtis Axel, another third generation star, and most notably the son of Mr. Perfect.Currently He's working PPV pre-shows and is lucky to make TV and it not to be to just job to someone else. He's one step down the card away from being future endeavored.
-Drew McIntyre, in 2008 Vince McMahon came out on TV and proclaimed him the chosen one and a future world champ. I don't think he would do that for someone who he doesn't like or see dollar signs in. Now, McIntyre is part of the modern day Job Squad, and saying that might be a complement. Backstage love and deep family history can help get eyes on you but its what you do when those eyes are watching that will make or break your career.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Agreed but there is one thing I think we did all miss and we kinda have to mention it.

It's doubtful Orton Sr. "got him the job" but more that Steph and Vince in particular would have remembered "Little Randy" from the early Mania days when Bob was around, much as he remembered Dwayne. It could be as simple as Bob bringing him along to a show and Vince seeing the kid had grown up and thinking..."yep, I can do something with this kid..." I am certain thats how it happened for the Rock.

One thing Vince does a lot and doesn't get credit for is looking after people and relatives who have worked hard for him.

When Eddie died he gave Vicki his full contract for her role onscreen and then a pretty good one of her own and also his daughter in NXT... Davey got numerous rehabs and major pushes and later his kid a big push of his own even after messing up. Despite Flair's mistakes WWE kept him around after his recent loss almost cos "he's better here with us around his daughter in NXT". If Vince hates or isn't a fan of you then no, but if he's fond of a worker then he will go above and beyond what most bosses would.

He may simply have seen this "slouchy kid" who he remembered fondly from years ago now a prototype for his business and said..."Let's make a star!"

 

[Anger]

In all honesty, I'm a big fan of RKO, but I do believe his lineage obviously had a hand in his career. But , not for nothing, am I an RKO guy. Despite the views-most of which I do not at all understand-of many, I feel he is a damned solid performer ; good mic and character work, and very good in ring skills. To my mind, Orton is more than deserving of his success. Yes, he has had problems, generally of his own making. And undoubtedly, he has benefitted from his connections. But I believe he has merely used his talent to take advantage of his familial legacy and friendships.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

The OP is the sort of dumbfuck that goes around categorizing wrestlers into the number of moves they do, only unrealistic numbers. According to Mr. OP from the UK Batista= 2 moves. Randy Orton= 3 or 4 moves. Of course he's generous because of that certainty whether it's 3 or 4 moves. Anybody who likes Randy Orton or Batista for that matter and doesn't fit into his worldview, example Myself, is a "complete fucking ******" .

When I challenged and replied this dork, he went on saying how he hates the United States and myself for holding the opinions I do hold.

Regardless what dorks like the OP, and that biased dork enviousdominous think, Randy Orton is a bonafide main-eventer, a wrestler far more superior to Daniel Bryan in terms of promo, over-all performance and longevity and there is nothing they can do about it so why not bash Orton and blame his success because of his "friendship" with HHH.
It's obvious that it takes far more than just acquaintance with HHH to be a bonafide main-eventer because had it not been so, X-pac, Kevin Nash and others would all have held the WWE championship between 2004 and right now but only Talented acquaintances of his such as Randy and Batista did. No matter what Daniel Bryan fans think, Randy Orton remains unrivalled in his abilities and he is the Second biggest star next only to John Cena.

I'm sure I'm going to be called a "complete ******" by biased Wrestlezone bums and get a few negative points but Truth stands alone! Be envious of Orton and keep wishing for that pipsqueak Daniel Bryan but he'll never be the face of the WWE like Orton and Cena are.

 

[tom9422]

I think that Randy Orton is someone that's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG since proven that he's gotten where he is mostly because of talent. For some strange reason, and I don't know why, some fans refuse to believe that guys who make it to the top in WWE get there by being talented. I honestly don't know where it comes from. Is it personal jealousy that they themselves didn't have what it took? Is it bitterness because they made it while other wrestlers they were bigger fans of didn't?

Because sometimes they don't, its simply a fact. We all know the role backstage politics plays and we all know that the company sometimes prioritises things that are not talent. We all see guys get pushed that have limited ring skills, limited mic skills, limited charisma, while at the same time its not all that uncommon to see great talent get little reward.

I think the question we should be asking isn't "would Randy have won a title", its "would Randy be in the position he is today". Randy's good, don't get me wrong, but since he came into the company he's been positioned like an incredible prodigious talent. From the beginning he was positioned into a top stable and got midcard titles, then progressed to world title wins, then feuds with legends, then main events, Wrestlemania main events until recently winning a title unification match. Is Randy as good as you'd expect a 10 time champ to be? I don't believe so. He probably would have a couple titles under his belt, but pretty much everyone has. 10 reigns is a huge number.

He's never had Punk's mic skills, Cena's ring psychology, never been as over Bryan, i could really go on and on. I just don't think he's as good as he's been positioned.

 

[Rampage Bentley]

Would someone who is 6'5" with perfect bronze skin, good looks, a terrific physique and extensive knowledge and insight into pro wrestling have made it in the WWE?

I'll go out on a limb and say, "yes". I know it's not really the WWE's way to get larger than life wrestlers with a terrific physique, good looks and a great background in wrestling, but I suspect they would have made an exception this one time.


And once we establish Orton would have made it in the WWE, then you can only go by how good he's been since he started and there's no doubt Orton's career is due solely to Orton, not anyone else.

I think the subtext of the question being asked is would WWE overlook some of Orton's indiscretions if it wasn't for his family name and Triple H.

No one is questioning his look or talent, but Orton is a fuck up. I personally don't think most people could survive two (three) wellness violations and some of his incidents regarding the divas. Guys like Drew McIntyre and Dolph Ziggler are being buried for far less.

While Orton seems like he's straightened up as of late, I don't think most guys in his position would be given the opportunity to straighten up. So while I think Orton has a great look and ask the talent in the world, I think without his family name our connection to Triple H, he'd be either unemployed or being jobbed out.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

The hate for Randy Orton is palpable in this thread. It's almost like Randy Orton is getting legit heel heat as people are spouting word for word Cena's pre-TLC promo against him.

But that's impossible as no one here is a mark and Cena doesn't influence smart fans like us.

 

[Slyfox696]

I think the subtext of the question being asked is would WWE overlook some of Orton's indiscretions if it wasn't for his family name and Triple H.

No one is questioning his look or talent, but Orton is a fuck up. I personally don't think most people could survive two (three) wellness violations and some of his incidents regarding the divas. Guys like Drew McIntyre and Dolph Ziggler are being buried for far less.

While Orton seems like he's straightened up as of late, I don't think most guys in his position would be given the opportunity to straighten up. So while I think Orton has a great look and ask the talent in the world, I think without his family name our connection to Triple H, he'd be either unemployed or being jobbed out.

And my point, as I said, is that Randy Orton is where he is because of how he's done. Orton was only close with Triple H because he was a future superstar. The WWE would have treated him exactly the same way if his last name hadn't been Orton.

 

[RicSpade]

I think I have seen this somewhere before, but for the hell of it I'll bite again but I'll make it simple Orton has all the talent to get over heel or face and he has the skills to be a champion whether or not he would've been a champ if he hadn't been a third generation star, well no because he wouldn't exist so that makes it irrelevent if he came out of the wayback machine or not, now if he was just an indy guy who happened to get over and made his way to OVW and then WWE then yes, he would've beem champ.but I think without Triple H backing him his discipline problems would've kicked his ass to the curb a long long time ago.

 

[Mustang Sally]

I think that Randy Orton is someone that's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG since proven that he's gotten where he is mostly because of talent.

That's undeniable; his work ethic is top-notch, his ring repertoire is precise and virtually flawless, he possesses the stamina and drive to keep himself at the top for years to come.

Yes, his demerits might have spelled the end of his career long ago, but I don't believe it's his family and business connections that have given him a pass on the occasions he was "naughty".....rather, the success he built as a pro wrestler in WWE is why they felt they had to keep him even when he screwed up. Family or not, he was too good a performer to drop just because of bad behavior.

Still, there are many thousands of performers who ply their trades, yet never get a shot at the brass ring. Think of all the wanna-be wrestlers who have great physiques, huge wrestling ability....and seemingly have every asset the guys who attain the top possess. Still, they never get the chance to shine, and as a result, the wrestling world never knows how good they are.

Them's the breaks.

That's how I'd answer the OP's question about Randy Orton. It's who he knew that got him his "in"......but what he did with it from there was strictly on his own merits.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

His bloodlines got him in the door for sure but he has talent and his talent got him where he is. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.

This business is about making money. Orton makes a lot of money for WWE or else he wouldn't be here, with all the non-sense that has happened with him.

 

[darkdays]

Hed have been a top star if his last name was Hybertokenstintzalec. His talent is what got him there,.not his name or who he was friends with. Will we be saying the same whe Roman Reigns and /or Cody Rhodes get as far as Orton in about 5-10 years? No because Im sure they wont be the IWC's Public Enemy #1 like Orton is.

He's more than earned where hes at.

 

[Pedigree1]

Randy Orton,when he first debuted was destined to be a mega star.. A huge star and champion written all over him.. Evolution showed that much,he was the Gem of the group we all knew it. Randy's success has nothing to do with his grandfather or father,it might help a little,but his genetics are worlds above what his dad and Grandfather had..

Randy is a damn fine performer and worthy of every accolade he has ever gotten. The man is chiseled out of granite,and has amazing in-ring ability..

 

[Rampage Bentley]

And my point, as I said, is that Randy Orton is where he is because of how he's done. Orton was only close with Triple H because he was a future superstar. The WWE would have treated him exactly the same way if his last name hadn't been Orton.

John Cena was a future superstar around the same time Orton was as well, but Triple H wasn't friends with him... In fact it's pretty well known he wasn't a fan.

No one is disputing Orton is talented, but you can't say his sole reason for being where he is is said talent. That's not how the world works, the saying "It's all who you know" is doubly true in any form of entertainment.

I'm not taking away from his drive or accomplishment, but if you take someone without a name with no connections or friendships and have them act out the way Orton has, I guarantee you they wouldn't be in Randy's position. Hell, without the name they probably wouldn't have even hired someone with a dishonorable discharge from the military.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's important to note that for guys like Drew it's a) not too late and b) other things have gotten in the way than just the Tiffany stuff... Drew's mother was terminally ill and disabled, that meant he was often off TV between that and sorting his green card. If WWE were not interested in him they wouldn't have got to that point.

3MB is a joke to many but it's taught Drew some valuable performance skills that he was lacking before... sure it's not Evolution but it is doing as important a job in many ways...He got the same initial push as Orton, just he had to job down a lot more when he screwed up... but the one thing Trips and Vince reward is guys who "take their licks" and keep giving 110%... this is why guys like Ziggler don't do as well and Orton and Drew do, they fuck up but they take their punishment and wait for their time.

The measure of these young guys today when they are signed is different to how it was for Orton, what WWE needs from them is not an endless stream of main eventers but in reality "good hands" who can take the roles assigned to them, rise if they can but ultimately be fed to the ones that do rise. Forget the new Hogan or Savage, they need the new Tito Santana, Paul Orndorrf and Greg Valentine or the new Cena will never get to that same level.

It's far more likely that they sign 2nd or 3rd gen now so that and a quid might get you a tryout whereas for guys like Orton, Cody and DiBiase it was more of a novelty.

Also the roster is the most diverse ethnically ever so the Green Card thing comes into play as was evidenced with Barrett's enforced absence... You're not gonna push guys to the title now unless you know they are gonna be ok to work in the US permanently. That impacts far more guys right now that you would think...

Cesaro
Rusev
Drew
Gabriel
Barrett
Leo Kruger
Adrian Neville
Paige

All of these could be doing more perhaps than they are - some like Barrett got better pushes than Orton initially got without being 2nd gen but ultimately they got halted because WWE couldn't risk them getting deported for something stupid as Drew could have been.

If anything Orton is not the measuring stick for anything other than taking your lumps and getting your head down, suriving in the company basically. Using him to judge the "next big things" is probably as big a mistake as using Rocky...

 

[JohnJohnson]

In WWE you get a contract if you're a 3rd generation superstar. But that doesn't mean you're going to be pushed to the moon or anything. Also I don't think being friends with Triple H means you get a big push. X-Pac didn't become a main eventer. People say guys like Orton, Sheamus or ADR got titles is because they are friends with HHH. These are 3 very talented in ring performers though. I think if anything, they are friends with Triple H because of their talent. Triple H doesn't seem like the type that would just go out of his way to hang out with some rookie who is doing poor in the rings in the training camps and developmental territory. It makes far more sense for him to show up to these things and take notice in the ones with talent and looks and reach out to those. Triple H is very passionate about wrestling. I think their in ring work as well as their look is what got them the push.

Orton was on fire when he had his first title run and turned face. I remember when I first saw him, I just thought another Maven. But when he started to shine towards the end of his Evolution run and had that awesome theme song, I was just blown away. He worked some great matches. I really enjoyed him when he was heel and feuded with Foley and Taker. I think he is stale now, but he still has the ability and talent. He doesn't seem out of place.

If anything, I think being part of a wrestling family, or being "friends" with Triple H only makes things harder for them. The IWC has a big effect on wrestling these days. Some people seem to think that we are only a small percentage, but I think the live crowds indicate otherwise. Even if most fans aren't participating in sites like these, I'm sure a lot of them are reading the dirtsheets and reading over these discussions. Even if they aren't, I'm sure they have friends that do. IWC likes to shit on Triple H and say that whoever doesn't get pushed is being buried and whoever is pushed is only pushed because they are his friend. They like to believe that Triple H only won the titles he won, because he married into the family, despite being a grand slam champion, pioneer of the Attitude Era, one of the leaders of WWE's greatest stable and WWF champion before he even started dating Steph, not to mention his superb heel work and excellent in ring ability. So it seems anything he does, people shit on, and being associated with him makes IWC fans online claim you were handed something. Whereas in contrast, if you are an indy darling, you are automatically liked by the IWC and are being buried by Triple H anytime you aren't being pushed. If Orton, would have come from ROH and had a name there, I think the IWC would be saying he's the greatest of all time instead of making threads debating on whether he was handed these things. That's my opinion on it at least.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

If Orton, would have come from ROH and had a name there, I think the IWC would be saying he's the greatest of all time instead of making threads debating on whether he was handed these things. That's my opinion on it at least.

100% agree. Also, if Daniel Bryan had the belt right now and Orton was doing something else, people wouldn't be starting threads every day about how "bad" Orton is. Since Bryan doesn't have the belt, naturally, the guy that does have the belt is public enemy #1.

 

[Slyfox696]

John Cena was a future superstar around the same time Orton was as well, but Triple H wasn't friends with him... In fact it's pretty well known he wasn't a fan.

Which...really has no relevance here. I'm not saying EVERY superstar gets in close with Triple H, I'm saying Orton was partnered with Triple H because they were pretty certain he was going to be a star.

 

[TheLoneCharles]

In the beginning I found Orton to be boring. It wasn't until his 2008-2010 run with Legacy and going full heel did he truly become a big star.

The initial problem with Orton was his face run came too soon, and because of who he was he was forced down our throats at all times. For me it was somewhere between Rocky Maivia and Alberto Del Rio.

 

[willross]

His initial look he got at age 21 or whatever of course was cause he had family lineage but I really think that you gotta be a friggin moron to think Randy Orton isn't one of the most prototypical pro wrestler of all time.

JBL always says it, if you were to make a pro wrestler from scratch he would be Randy Orton.

Randy Orton can do everything. He can do all the high fly stuff, he just doesn't because the WWE lets only certain guys do that to keep those specific guys special. He can cut a promo, is he the best at that, no, but he can cut a pretty damn good one when they time calls for it.

In the ring, he is one of the best, love him or hate him, if you try and deny that fact than you don't know wrestling. His story-telling ability is at one of the highest levels and it should be considering he had his dad, Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, and Triple H all teaching him how things are done.

 

[Rampage Bentley]

Which...really has no relevance here. I'm not saying EVERY superstar gets in close with Triple H, I'm saying Orton was partnered with Triple H because they were pretty certain he was going to be a star.

Fair sentiment, it was a very insignificant statement compared to my other points, which you conveniently missed. I'll rephrase them here...

1. Do you think WWE would have hired him, someone dishonorably discharged from The Marines (keeping in mind their military sponsors) if not for his last name?

2. Do you believe someone without Orton's connections could not only survive his multiple wellness strikes and backstage alterations, but thrive as he has?

 

[Slyfox696]

Fair sentiment, it was a very insignificant statement compared to my other points, which you conveniently missed. I'll rephrase them here...

1. Do you think WWE would have hired him, someone dishonorably discharged from The Marines (keeping in mind their military sponsors) if not for his last name?

I already answered this.

Would someone who is 6'5" with perfect bronze skin, good looks, a terrific physique and extensive knowledge and insight into pro wrestling have made it in the WWE?

I'll go out on a limb and say, "yes". I know it's not really the WWE's way to get larger than life wrestlers with a terrific physique, good looks and a great background in wrestling, but I suspect they would have made an exception this one time.

2. Do you believe someone without Orton's connections could not only survive his multiple wellness strikes and backstage alterations, but thrive as he has?

I answered this as well.

And once we establish Orton would have made it in the WWE, then you can only go by how good he's been since he started and there's no doubt Orton's career is due solely to Orton, not anyone else.

At the end of the day, Orton is where he is because of Randy Orton. It has nothing to do with anyone else, only what Randy Orton brings to the table.

 

[tom9422]

At the end of the day, Orton is where he is because of Randy Orton. It has nothing to do with anyone else, only what Randy Orton brings to the table.

I'm sorry, but you're just naive if you think that. Obviously you need some ability, but beyond a baseline level of ability the WWE is *not* a meritocracy. HHH's friends (Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc.) generally get very far, thats not a coincidence, he's a guy you generally want on your side.

You really don't think having friends with influence didn't improve his career? He'd probably have a few title reigns under his belt (who doesn't?) but the 10 time, Wrestlemania main-eventing champ? He continues to accumulate accomplishments despite wellness violations, backstage troubles and straight up not being that over.