Calgary Region, Fourth Round: TLC: (2) Hulk Hogan vs. (3) Edge

[Skillz]

Easy victory for Hogan here. Hogan is the greatest wrestler of all time, and Edge is shit. That alone should be more than enough reason to vote for Hogan. But this is the IWC, and people will look at the stipulation and blindly vote for the vastly overrated Edge.

I find it funny when people say it's the faster, more athletic wrestlers who have the advantage in this type of match. While it's usually the more athletic wrestlers who compete in these matches, history shows us that on many occasions the less athletic wrestler comes out on top.

Bret Hart beat the faster, more athletic Shawn Michaels in a ladder match.
Razor Ramon beat the faster, more athletic Shawn Michaels in a ladder match.
Undertaker beat the faster, more athletic and more experienced Jeff Hardy in a ladder match.
Kane beat several faster, more athletic and more experienced wrestlers in a TLC match.
Triple H beat the faster, more athletic and more experienced Shawn Michaels in a ladder match.
John Cena beat the far more experienced Edge in his hometown in a TLC match.
Mr. Kennedy beat several faster, more athletic and more experienced wrestlers to win MITB.
Kane beat several faster, more athletic wrestlers to win MITB.
The Miz beat several faster, more athletic and more experienced wrestlers to win MITB.

I'm sure Hulk Fucking Hogan can find a way to beat Edge in a TLC match.

I'm guessing a few punches, a big boot and a leg drop will be enough to keep Edge down. Then Hogan will have all the time in the world to climb up the ladder for the win.

 

[Phoenix]

I think the problem is, many are using things like athleticism and even using Cena's experience against Edge for this. I think the actual TLC we need to compare this to is when Ric Flair (or even Undertaker) faced Edge in a TLC match and this is why:

1. Ric Flair's wrestling style comes from the same patch as Hogan's
2. Hogan's methods will be similiar to that of Flair's than than of Cena's

Simple fact is that Hulk doesn't rely on speed, high risk nor power, yes this is considering the slamming of André at Mania III. The other issue is regarding weapons, we have seen Hogan handle chairs, but ladders and tables are certainly something different (please correct me if I'm wrong), you got situations like about Hulking up during the match, Edge's technique in TLC's is not to let the opponent gain momentum and he normally stops people from doing that.

Now there's one other element that people fail to consider that's a difference maker, Edge's manager. Now the rules state Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside, that means the period you consider Edge's prime, which is considered to be between 2006-2009 is when he had managers like Lita and Vickie Guerrero/La Familia, now when either of those guys are backing Edge, the odds swing back into the favour of Rated R Superstar, aka the Ultimate Opportunist, and they have played vital victory roles for Edge in TLC.

In short, while Hogan would give Edge a ride for his money, he's going to be bringing his big guns to the game and while Cena's win against Edge is something worth noting, Hogan's style is not the same as Cena's and those that compete similar to the Hulkster who have faced Edge in the same match type have not been able to come through.

This victory goes to Edge.

 

[JGlass]

Actually in 2006, it was Cena chasing Edge for most of the year. It didn't matter how, Edge found a way to stay ahead of Cena and retain. Im saying this is an advantage for Edge in that he stayed ahead of the face of the company, the Hogan of the 2000's.

Not really. Cena won the belt from Edge at Backlash, then RVD lifted the belt off of Cena at One Night Stand. RVD retained against Edge at Vengeance, and Edge beat Cena at Summerslam, but Cena won the belt at Unforgiven. So all in all, Cena only had to chase the belt across two PPVs that were less than a month apart.

And if Edge doesn't win here, he's out as well. You don't think he'ld want to cap off his career of 11 Championship wins, some either punctuated or won in the TLC environment, by winning one more? It might send him scurrying off into early retirement if he were to lose a second TLC match in front of his home crowd. You wouldnt want to do that to Edge, would you?

Edge is a man who has walked out on matches before to avoid pain. Edge is a man who cares more about his personal well being than winning the match. Are you REALLY trying to tell me that Edge is more dedicated to winning a wrestling match than Hulk freaking Hogan?!

It almost sounds like youre suggesting that it's easier to win a Fatal Four Way TLC match then it is a one on one match. Not even in the slightest. Even moreso, you have to pick your spots and be the one who lands the final knockout blow. And Edge did exactly that in the Fatal Four Way that he won, but he took plenty of bumbs along the way, my friend. He simply added to both his legacy in the match as well as his experience in the Fatal Four Way, experience he would use to beat Hogan in this match.

No easier, different. Look at Money in the Bank, Jack Swagger was able to win because he capitalized at the right time after guys like Kofi Kingston and Christian did most of the work. Would you really say Jack Swagger is more likely to win a ladder match than Christian simply because Swagger won a Money in the Bank match that involved Christian?

Wait, Chavo and Rhyno were in the tournament? Well certainly they'ld be motivated to make an impact here, as Im sure they were sqaushed in the first round. And the same could be said for the rest of Hogan's buddies, as they're gone as well. I didn't make the argument that Edge's back-up was better, tougher, or stronger(although perhaps smarter) then Hogan's, i simply asserted that Edge would make better use of them. Having been in this match before, he'ld know when and where to deploy them, something Hogan would be unfamilar with in this particular match.

It's been said before, if you're relying on interference for the victory, you're grasping at straws. I've played this game with you for a while, but when it comes down to it, if there really was interference, Hogan could just invite out the whole NWO and there would just be so many of them that they could physically remove Edge from the building. It's no DQ, what's stopping them? Then the rest of them could form a human wall around Hogan as he climbs the ladder.

This is why interference arguments are silly.

Did he beat HBK in the match? Pin him for the 1,2,3 at the Rumble? That would be yes. Did he win the title by pinning HHH at Survivor Series? Again, yes? You made the assertion that he never beat either HBK or HHH before, not I. Those were both wrestling matches, were they not?

I was mistaken with HBK, but I maintain he's never beaten Triple H one on one. The point is, Hogan has beaten everyone there is to beat for over two decades, Edge has not.

He did, and I can't recall anyone of his generation Edge hasnt beaten in a wrestling match. Cena? Beat him. HBK and HHH? Beat em both. Big Show? Clean. Kurt Angle? Several times. Undertaker? That would be yes. Edge beat all of them in wrestling matches, as well as in gimmick ones. Edge even has wins over the man that took Hogan out last year in the tournament in Chris Benoit. Edge has beaten everyone of his generation, same as Hogan has. The difference is Edge has beaten them in both straight up wrestling matches as well as gimmick matches, which gives Edge, well, an edge.

Dude, I mention Brock Lesnar next. And there are plenty of people the Edge hasn't beaten that he was in the company with, like The Rock and Stone Cold. True, he never really got the chance, but Hogan would have had he wrestled in the company long enough. Hell, he DID beat Hogan.

You mean the Brock Lesnar that made Hogan pass out from the bear hug and became only the 2nd wrestler to defeat Hogan by submission? The same Lesnar who was the first to ever defeat Hogan by having the match called?

First of all, that's not relevant to my argument, which was Edge has not defeated every star he's come up against. Secondly, you're really going to argue that Brock Lesnar's win over a 50 year old Hulk Hogan means that Edge would be able to defeat a prime Hulk Hogan?

And Edge, as I already metioned, pinned HHH to win the title at Survivor Series 2008. I know it was in a triple threat match, but Edge still pinned fellow main eventer HHH, to win the title, no less.

Triple threat=Different beast. The fact that he's faced Triple H many times one on one and has never been able to win speaks more about Edge than his one win in a triple threat.

Yet he never competed in a ladder match, let alone a TLC match during his prime. It matters quite a bit that Cena is much more agile then Hogan was in his prime, because he was able to keep pace with the experienced, even quicker Edge.

They're different wrestlers. Cena matches the pace of the guy he's up against, Hogan dictates the match. Hogan would force Edge to play his game.

Hogan wasn't exactly nimble, and his moveset certainly didn't revolve around climbing or flying through the air.

What the... whose moveset involves climbing? And you don't have to be a flier to win these matches, as seen by John Cena and Miz winning.

And that would hurt him here, as Edge would be able to outquick, outpace, and outsmart Hogan in this match on his way to winning HIS match. This is the one match that Hogan simply wouldnt be able to beat Edge in.

You think Hogan is going to chase after Edge? No, he's going to do what he does best: wallop on Edge for the first 3 minutes of the match before Edge gets the advantage. Edge will hit him with a steel chair, smash him with a ladder, and then he'll start to climb, but Hogan will hulk up, put Edge through a table, and then feed Edge a huge leg drop from the top of the ladder, effectively putting Edge's lights out and allowing the Hulkster to climb safely to victory.

Winner: Hulk Hogan.

 

[Big Sexy]

1. Ric Flair's wrestling style comes from the same patch as Hogan's

2. Hogan's methods will be similiar to that of Flair's than than of Cena's

They may come from the same era but that is where the similarities stop. Flair and Hogan have two completely different styles. Besides, when Flair faced Edge he was 57 years old. That's a good 20 years out of his prime and he still almost beat him. If anything, Edge's win over Flair works more against him then for him.

Simple fact is that Hulk doesn't rely on speed, high risk nor power, yes this is considering the slamming of André at Mania III. The other issue is regarding weapons, we have seen Hogan handle chairs, but ladders and tables are certainly something different (please correct me if I'm wrong), you got situations like about Hulking up during the match, Edge's technique in TLC's is not to let the opponent gain momentum and he normally stops people from doing that.

If Hogan doesn't rely on power then what exactly does he rely on? As far as the tables and ladders part goes, Hogan may not be doing flips onto tables or flying off a ladder but it doesn't take much for a guy like Hogan to know how to use use those weapons effectively. Picking up a ladder and swinging it at Edge's face will be plenty effective.

Now there's one other element that people fail to consider that's a difference maker, Edge's manager. Now the rules state Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside, that means the period you consider Edge's prime, which is considered to be between 2006-2009 is when he had managers like Lita and Vickie Guerrero/La Familia, now when either of those guys are backing Edge, the odds swing back into the favour of Rated R Superstar, aka the Ultimate Opportunist, and they have played vital victory roles for Edge in TLC.

Hogan had plenty of friends and guys that would assist him in this matchup if need be. He had plenty of tag matches with guys like Savage, Brutus Beefcake, JYD, Big Bossman, Warrior, and the list goes on. There was always somebody who had his back. Jimmy Snuka at Mania 1, Warrior at Mania 8, Tugboat at Summerslam 1990, no matter what period of his prime you want to use Hogan had people to offset Edge's help.

In short, while Hogan would give Edge a ride for his money, he's going to be bringing his big guns to the game and while Cena's win against Edge is something worth noting, Hogan's style is not the same as Cena's and those that compete similar to the Hulkster who have faced Edge in the same match type have not been able to come through.

Hogan's style is much closer to Cena's then to Taker or Flair's. Even if you want to bring up Taker and Flair it doesn't do much to help your argument. Flair was 57 when Edge beat him and Flair still almost won. Edge needed a ton of interference to beat Taker and Hogan has the help to offset that in this match up.

 

[LSN80]

Not really. Cena won the belt from Edge at Backlash, then RVD lifted the belt off of Cena at One Night Stand. RVD retained against Edge at Vengeance, and Edge beat Cena at Summerslam, but Cena won the belt at Unforgiven. So all in all, Cena only had to chase the belt across two PPVs that were less than a month apart.

Not quite. Here's how 2006 went down. Edge won the belt from Cena at New Years Revolution, and Cena regained it at the Royal Rumble, then retained it at Wrestlemania(HHH) and Backlash(HHH and Edge). RVD won the title at One Nght Stand from Cena, then defeated Edge at Vengeance. Edge won the title on the July 3rd version of Raw, then retained it against Cena at Saturday Night's Main Event on July 16th(I remember, its my lil sis' birthday). He then retained it at Summerslam on August 20th(my birthday this time), against Cena once again. It was then that the stipulation was put in place that it was Cena's "last chance", and he had to leave Raw if he lost. So Cena was chsing the title and took more losses from Edge during the year then he probably has any other opponent.

Edge is a man who has walked out on matches before to avoid pain. Edge is a man who cares more about his personal well being than winning the match. Are you REALLY trying to tell me that Edge is more dedicated to winning a wrestling match than Hulk freaking Hogan?!

And yet Ive never seen Edge walk out on a TLC match, or a ladder match for that matter. That is the match we're talking bout, correct? Because Ive seen face-Edge and heel-Edge take horrific bumps in TLC and ladder matches and keep coming back for more. I don't care that he's walked out on a one-on-one match, because thats not what this is. This is the match Edge is most passionate about, and cares about winning said match first and foremost, and there's no way in heck he's walking out on this match.

Not easier, different. Look at Money in the Bank, Jack Swagger was able to win because he capitalized at the right time after guys like Kofi Kingston and Christian did most of the work. Would you really say Jack Swagger is more likely to win a ladder match than Christian simply because Swagger won a Money in the Bank match that involved Christian?

Its all good my friend. No, your point is well taken. My point was an simply is that Edge has experience and has been victorious in every kind of TLC match that's taken place. Tag team TLC, one on one TLC, Fatal Four Way, TLC, Edge has been in, and won them all. Capatilzing on your opponents mistakes and being aware of your surroundings is of first and foremost importance in this match type, and noone has done that to a greater degree then Edge.

It's been said before, if you're relying on interference for the victory, you're grasping at straws. I've played this game with you for a while, but when it comes down to it, if there really was interference, Hogan could just invite out the whole NWO and there would just be so many of them that they could physically remove Edge from the building. It's no DQ, what's stopping them? Then the rest of them could form a human wall around Hogan as he climbs the ladder.This is why interference arguments are silly.

I agree, and you know me, the last thing Im here to do is argue bud. We could go back and forth as to whose interferenc ewould be stronger, who might turn on who, who possibly would no-show the event because they weren't being paid enough, and etc. My only point about the interference is that Edge has utilized it many a time at the best point possible in matches to win them.

I was mistaken with HBK, but I maintain he's never beaten Triple H one on one. The point is, Hogan has beaten everyone there is to beat for over two decades, Edge has not.

Understood. Even if he hasnt beaten HHH in a one on one match, he's still beaten him, correct? I fail to remember Hogan ever beating the Ultimate Warrior in a one on match, when Warrior or Hogan was in his prime. As far as I remember, Warrior pinned Hogan clean in their only one on one encounter. My point is this. In their primes, both each defeated the top stars in their respective times.

Dude, I mention Brock Lesnar next. And there are plenty of people the Edge hasn't beaten that he was in the company with, like The Rock and Stone Cold. True, he never really got the chance, but Hogan would have had he wrestled in the company long enough. Hell, he DID beat Hogan.

Im not sure I understand what you're saying here in the first part. Edge was a tag team specialist whow as just breaking into the mid-card when Rocky and Austin were retiring. If youre going to use the Hulk Hogan was fifty argument for him losing to Lesnar, or the Rock for that matter, then you have to accept the same argument that Edge was merely a tag team specialist and mid-carder when Rocky was in his prime and Austin was leaving the company. And Edge was competing in, and winning, TLC matches back then. Why do I bring that up? Because from virtually the moment Edge entered the company, he was cutting his teeth in, and winning, TLC and ladder matches.

First of all, that's not relevant to my argument, which was Edge has not defeated every star he's come up against. Secondly, you're really going to argue that Brock Lesnar's win over a 50 year old Hulk Hogan means that Edge would be able to defeat a prime Hulk Hogan?

First, I think Ive suffcienly shown that an in his prime Edge has beaten every main eventer there is to beat. Along wth the win at Survivor Series 2009, he pinned him clean on Raw in a match leading up to their triple threat match at Backlash 2006. I don't remember the circumstances of the match, but Edge pinned HHH. I also made it clear that Hogan didn'tbet everyone in his prime, as he never bet the Warrior. And know, the imposer Warrior in WCW doesn't count. Second, Ive been quite consistent in my argument all along. I think if they fought 10 times in single's matches, Hogan would probably win 9, maybe all 10 while both were in their prime. The problem is, this isn't a regular's sigle's match, so that logic goes completely out the window. This is TLC, which is how Im evaluating who would win. I don't think the Lesnar match is anymore relevant then Edge's 2000 match against the Rock. Lesnar beat a past his prime Hogan, and Rock beat a newbie in Edge.

Triple threat=Different beast. The fact that he's faced Triple H many times one on one and has never been able to win speaks more about Edge than his one win in a triple threat.

As far as I can remember, they've only faced off once in a one-on-one environment(The Bash 2009) when both men were main eventers. I get that HHH won that match, and that a triple threat match is a different beast. But to simply pretend as if it doesn't matter or that a main eventer in Edge didn't pin a main eventer in HHH is silly. Because regardless of the match stipulation, he did.

They're different wrestlers. Cena matches the pace of the guy he's up against, Hogan dictates the match. Hogan would force Edge to play his game.

Edge does the same thing Hogan does. You mentioned earlier how Edge has quit matches for the sake of hs own well being. Agreed. But thats because his style is similar to Hogan's in that he dictates the style and flow of matches. But unlike your garden variety singles match which Edge may or may not quit on, his history in the TLC match shows us that he sure as heck doesn't quit here. You'ld have two men who would be trying to force the other to wrestle the match their style. The difference is, it would be a "been there, done that" scenario for Edge, while it would be new territory for Hogan.

What the... whose moveset involves climbing? And you don't have to be a flier to win these matches, as seen by John Cena and Miz winning.

You know what I mean. Anyone who uses the ropes to their advantage, which Edge does. Add chairs to the mix, and a Edge crossbody off the ropes packs alot more of a punch. You don't hve to be a high flyer to win this match, but the exception rather then the rule in TLC matches have been that speed, not strength, wins the match.

You think Hogan is going to chase after Edge? No, he's going to do what he does best: wallop on Edge for the first 3 minutes of the match before Edge gets the advantage. Edge will hit him with a steel chair, smash him with a ladder, and then he'll start to climb, but Hogan will hulk up, put Edge through a table, and then feed Edge a huge leg drop from the top of the ladder, effectively putting Edge's lights out and allowing the Hulkster to climb safely to victory.

No. I dont. See above. I think that both men have spent their entire careers, at least in the main event scene, dictating the pace of their matches. I think that Edge will try to go right at Hogan. Hogan will probably gain the early advantage, but that early advantage will be negated when he starts to climb the ladder. Edge will make full use of the steel chairs, effectiely targeting a body part of the Hulkster. Hogan's lack of speed will be his downfall here, and there's no freaking way he's going to even attempta leg drop from the top of the ladder. His leg's going to be useless anyway after Edge has spent the better part of the match targeting it. The two will fight on the ladder for the belt, with the ladder tipping overt. Both will go to get up, but Hogan's leg will give out after Edge has spent the entire match wrapping a steel chair around it. No Hulk-up, and Hogan is forced to helplessly watch as Edge quickly scurries up the ladder for the win. Edge wins.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I just took a bunch of randomly made comments that I felt sounded stupid, and bunched them together.

And here.. we.. go.

Fuck the TLC match stipulation. You can throw it out the window right now because we are talking about Hulk Hogan. One of the greatest superstars if not THE greatest of all time.

Well, this should really be it huh? I mean, there's a stipulation involved.. and I'm pretty sure it's made to be relevant to the match-up, but because Big Sexy says fuck it, you can throw it away because it's Hulk Hogan, well that says it all I guess. Shit.

So, why am I still going on, if that's suppose to be it? Maybe because a name isn't going to cause wide spread panic and chaos in completey ignoring the fact that this is a match-up that Hogan has never performed in, and is out of his element in.

BUT, BUT, BUT - Hogan has surely climbed before, right? Of course he has. I never said he didn't. Hogan's won several cage matches in his career - and that pretty much involves putting one foot above the other and repeating the process. However, Hogan has also lost cage matches before, and that indicates that Edge can win just as easily.

Hogan's lost cage matches to the likes of; Roddy Piper, Sting, DDP, and Ric Flair. (reference: http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/information/cage-match/ )

So, what is my opinion of "fucking the stipulation because it's Hogan?"

This..

Fuck the hulk up.

The Hulk Up was largely bullshit and completely fake to the entire sport.

Hogan made a name for himself because he was "unbeatable" (except through cheating, or when he was a heel with all the same talent and quality as a face - yet lost clean. Strange)

The Hulk Up works in all match types, but to what degree? He's obviously used it against individuals and still ended up losing. In a TLC match in which the only way to win is by climbing and grabbing an object - Hulking up and beating someone up for a 3-count becomes ultimately irrelevant.

John Cena is this generation's Hulk Hogan, but only Hulk Hogan is the real Hulkster. When Hulk Hogan was at the top of his game, nothing could stop him.

So, wait, am I suppose to understand that because Edge and Cena faced off in exactly ONE TLC match - that Edge should lose to Hogan, because Cena is as close to Hogan as anyone can be - but he isn't Hogan, so that makes him worse? I think that pile of crap sounds about right.

1.) Edge had the TLC match won until Lita interfered and it back-fired and caused Edge to fall from a ladder through a group of tables. So, by that I guess it should be understood that Edge would win in a straight up match.. but not if anyone interferes on his behalf.

2.) Cena and Hogan aren't alike. Infact, the only reason anyone in their crazy mind would compare the two would be because they are both the "face" of the WWF/E at the time of their Era's. Nothing else compares them anymore than saying Edge could be compared to Hogan because he's also Main Evented, carried multiple Heavyweight titles, been in movies and tv shows, and has been involved in sellout shows.

Fact is - Cena isn't wrestling Edge here, Edge has defeated Cena multiple times in the past (except the sole TLC match they ever had), and Hogan has never competed so he doesn't have the experience of knowing what will and won't work for him.

Again, before anyone thinks I'm saying "Hogan can't climb"; I'm not. I'm saying Hogan being in cage matches does not equal him knowing what the hell to do in a ladder/TLC match. When he goes to climb, Edge could be right there to shove the ladder over. If two ladders are set-up next to each other/against one another, Hogan could be half way touching the item at the top only to have Edge climb up beside him and deliver a painful move off the ladder/Edge could run up (ala Benjamin) the leaning ladder, and connect with a spear to Hogan just as he thinks he's won.

The fact is, Hogan in cage matches is hugely irrelevant to everything discussed about a TLC match - EXCEPT, for understanding that yes, Hogan can climb. There is merely a difference between just climbing, and understanding your element. Hogan doesn't.

He beat Undertaker in a TLC... with the help of four other men.

A win is a win. Hogan has won via cheating as well. The Hulk Up is a form of something I would largely considered "cheating". It's a no-selling type of move. Who's to say Edge couldn't just do the same fricken thing?

The best measurement we have for how this match would go is his match against John Cena, which he lost. It was one on one, minimal interference, and it saw Cena walking out the victory.

1. Cena would've lost had it not been for Lita.

2. Hogan is not Cena, and you can't compare the two unless you equally want to say Edge has defeated Cena several times, which indicates he can defeat Hogan just as much/easily.

I think we'll get the totally focused Edge, but that doesn't matter. In his prime, Hulk Hogan only lost when he got screwed out of victory. Edge would be one of the likely suspects for screwing Hulk Hogan, but I just don't see him being successful at it in this match. Even if Edge did get La Familia or Christian or Lita or Rhyno to help him out, you then are forced to give Hogan the NWO or Randy Savage or one of his many other friends.

Just because Edge would likely come into this contest as a heel, you can not instantly think if he had interference that you'd have to even it out with the n.W.o., Savage, or anything else.

When Hogan was cheated by the likes of King Savage, or DiBiase/Andre, or Zeus, or Yokozuna - I don't recall anyone rushing out to aid him. So there is no reason to believe the face Hogan would have anyone even the odds in this match, if the heel Edge had outside interference.

Ahh yes, more stupidity. I hate gimmick rounds as much as they make it enjoyable.


You guys are being ridiculous. Hogan would win this, and to say otherwise just makes you look bad.

1. You're the admin, if you don't like stipulation rounds, then don't have them involved. Pretty simple, really.

2. Claiming Hogan would win this based solely on him being "Hulk Hogan" and naming off a list of achievements/accomplishments he's done for the Company is what's ridiculous and makes you look bad.

Edge has more World titles than Hogan, but people dispute that by saying "he didn't deserve them." Hogan holds one of his (less) World titles, because someone fucking laid down via a finger poke. Don't talk to me about what anyone does or doesn't deserve.

I'm voting Edge because He's Hulk Hogan isn't good enough for me, and never will be. I'm voting Edge because Hogan built wrestling doesn't mean he went undefeated in his entire career, nor does it mean he'll do the same here. I'm voting Edge because Hogan is better than Edge is an opinion based statement, when Edge has actually accomplished more in his (shorter) career through accolades, achievements and accomplishments than Hogan has.

Oh, and those aren't opinion based statements, those are actual facts.

 

[Slyfox696]

I just took a bunch of randomly made comments that I felt sounded stupid, and bunched them together.

1. You're the admin, if you don't like stipulation rounds, then don't have them involved. Pretty simple, really.

I'm not running the tournament, KB is. Now you sound stupid.

2. Claiming Hogan would win this based solely on him being "Hulk Hogan" and naming off a list of achievements/accomplishments he's done for the Company is what's ridiculous and makes you look bad.

Don't think I did this at all. Just because you don't quote my entire post, doesn't mean it didn't actually exist. I debunked two of the biggest reasons Edge backers were giving, and proved them to be completely silly.

Edge has more World titles than Hogan, but people dispute that by saying "he didn't deserve them." Hogan holds one of his (less) World titles, because someone fucking laid down via a finger poke. Don't talk to me about what anyone does or doesn't deserve.

Every World title Edge has held came at a time when there was no less than two, and sometimes three, World titles.

Forget whether he deserved them, let's talk about his opportunities to win them. Then we can talk about how LONG he held them.

I'm voting Edge because He's Hulk Hogan isn't good enough for me, and never will be.

How about because Hulk Hogan in his prime was unbeatable, whereas Edge has proven time and again to rely on circumstance to win? How about because Edge can't even win a TLC match in Canada against John Cena, the man many people claim to be a modern-day Hogan? How about because Edge is an average, at best, in-ring worker, and Hogan was one of the best in history? How about because Hogan's bandanna draws better than Edge's wrestling?

How are those reasons?

I'm voting Edge because Hogan built wrestling doesn't mean he went undefeated in his entire career

Nope, but he damn sure lost FAR fewer matches in his prime than Edge did, and Hogan damn sure won a higher percentage of matches cleanly and fairly in his prime than Edge did.

I'm voting Edge because Hogan is better than Edge is an opinion based statement, when Edge has actually accomplished more in his (shorter) career through accolades, achievements and accomplishments than Hogan has.

Oh, and those aren't opinion based statements, those are actual facts.

Oh please, Will, just cut the bullshit, and say what you really mean.

"I'm voting Edge here because if he wins, I'll feel like I'm single-handedly responsible for getting an IWC favorite past an IWC villain, and then will sing my own praises for how great of a debate I put up throughout the tournament. I'm voting Edge because it stimulates my ego."

Be honest Will, THAT'S the real reason you're voting for Edge.



So, unless you want to give Will an even bigger ego than he already has in this WZ tournament, vote for Hulk Hogan. Not only will you be keeping Will's head from swelling past the point of exploding, you also get the added benefit of voting for the far superior wrestler, and the wrestler who, in kayfabe, would undoubtedly go over Edge.

Vote for Hogan. You can't lose.

 

[Big Sexy]

Well, this should really be it huh? I mean, there's a stipulation involved.. and I'm pretty sure it's made to be relevant to the match-up, but because Big Sexy says fuck it, you can throw it away because it's Hulk Hogan, well that says it all I guess. Shit.

In a lot of these matches the stipulation is very relevant which is why we have these rounds but in this certain situation it really isn't all that important because prime Hogan would never lose to Edge in this type of match up. If Edge didn't go over late 2000's Cena in the same type of match then he doesn't go over Hogan.

So, why am I still going on, if that's suppose to be it? Maybe because a name isn't going to cause wide spread panic and chaos in completey ignoring the fact that this is a match-up that Hogan has never performed in, and is out of his element in.

You mean just like Cena was when he beat Edge? Hogan has been out of his element before and still come out victorious.

BUT, BUT, BUT - Hogan has surely climbed before, right? Of course he has. I never said he didn't. Hogan's won several cage matches in his career - and that pretty much involves putting one foot above the other and repeating the process. However, Hogan has also lost cage matches before, and that indicates that Edge can win just as easily.

Prime WWF Hogan never lost a cage match. Hollywood Hogan lost a few but I'm not talking about Hollywood Hogan.

Hogan's lost cage matches to the likes of; Roddy Piper, Sting, DDP, and Ric Flair. (reference: http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/information/cage-match/ )

All in WCW as Hollywood Hogan. If you want to continue to use Hollywood Hogan as a guy Edge could beat then that's fine but that wasn't his absolute prime. It'd be like me using Edge from his days in the Brood or from 2002-2005 pre title run.

 

[Daniel]

I'm voting for Edge. Why? Because I prefer him to Hogan. Pretty simple really. I'd rather watch an Edge match than a Hogan match. I'd rather watch Edge talk than Hogan talk. And I'd certainly rather Edge be the world champion than Hogan be the world champion. To me, Edge is better and that's it.

The stipulation means nothing to me. I find there to be something a bit ridiculous about talking about scripted entertainment as if it were real. Although if we were to do that, you'd find that the stipulation favours Edge. Edge has been in the most and Hogan has been in, erm... zero. Edge has only lost one in singles competition and Hogan has won, erm... well, you know the answer. Edge is this intelligent, aggressive wrestler, that's part of his character. And if there are two characteristics that favour someone in a TLC match, it's intelligence and aggression.

I'll be voting Edge. But you can do what you want, brother.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

I'm voting Edge because Hogan is better than Edge is an opinion based statement, when Edge has actually accomplished more in his (shorter) career through accolades, achievements and accomplishments than Hogan has.

Oh, and those aren't opinion based statements, those are actual facts.

I knew you'd chime in with a long-winded post saying the same old stuff, and I was prepared to ignore it, but this last bit of bull can't be left unchallenged. You are out of your ever-loving mind if you truly believe this. You may like Edge more. You may think Edge is a better worker, better promo guy, whatever. That's your opinion, whatever. But get the eff out of here with this. It's just BS.

Hogan will win because that's what Hogan did. Hogan overcame the odds. Hogan didn't lose because of gimmick matches. When he was defeated, it was because the man happened to be better than him on that day. They happened to be better on that one day, and won. They went mano a mano with the Hulkster, and came up victorious. Edge is not a man like this. His prime character is exactly the opposite of the guy who pushes himself to the edge, to his physical limits and beyond, to get the win. He is an opportunist. This is not the type of man to beat Hogan. Edge would get disheartened when he couldn't keep Hogan down, how Hogan kept getting up.

The only other way Hogan lost is when Hogan would get DQ'd/counted out, neither of which applies here.

Hogan wins this after dropping a leg and making a slow, dramatic climb to the top as the crowd gets louder than anything Edge has ever heard during one of his matches.

 

[Stormtrooper]

First of all, to get all the logical, but somewhat opinionated (and thus Edgeheads will shit all over them) reasons out of the way.

Hulk Hogan has meant more to the wrestling business then virtually every other wrestler left in the tournament COMBINED. That includes Austin, Rock, and his opponent here, Edge.

Secondly, Hogan is Hulk Fucking Hogan, no way he loses to EDGE, who really means fuck all in wrestling history. Hogan only loses big matches (which this clearly is) to other big stars, or to guys not made yet like Warrior, not already made, but not big stars like Edge.

Thirdly, Hulk Hogan is the single greatest professional wrestler of all time, and he would NEVER lose to a guy like Edge, who is ridiculously overrated and nothing more then a transitional champion.


OK Will, I told you I would make a post with valid logical reasons as to why Hogan will win. Here it is.

1. People talk about how Hogan will climb and gets knocked off the ladder, leading to Edge winning. That won't happen. Hulk Hogan is too smart to climb the ladder before it's time to end the match, and if he does, he'll fall onto his feet. Why do you ask? Because Hulk Hogan has NEVER been known as a big-bump guy, and there's NO way in hell that HULK HOGAN will fall off the ladder and take a huge bump. Edge WILL, because that's what he's known most for. Edge will get annihilated and it will ultimately lead to his downfall.

2. Edge is 2-2 in Singles Ladder/TLC Matches (both are practically interchangeable) since winning his first championship (which would be considered the start of his prime, which is what I use to look at who wins). His wins were against Old Man Flair (TLC Match) and Undertaker (TLC Match), while he lost to John Cena (the closest guy to Hogan), and Druggie Hardy. That's hardly a stunning record, and anything done in multi-man Ladder/TLC matches doesn't matter, because the added people all in the ring at the same time creates a totally different match. People act like he's a TLC/Ladder God, and he's really not. He's .500.

3. While Edge is the "Ultimate Opportunist," Hulk Hogan is the ultimate WINNER. the number of Title Matches (this is ultimately a Title Match) in which Hulk Hogan in his prime lost (by pin/submission) can be counted on 1 hand. In fact, the answer is 4. Andre The Giant at The Main Event in 87/88 thanks to buying off a ref (can't do that here), The Ultimate Warrior at Mania VI, Taker at Survivor Series 91, and Yoko at King of the Ring 93. So in Hogans prime (January 1984-June 1993), he was decisively defeated 4 times.

Edge, on the other hand, lost more big matches then you can count. Actually, to be fair, I DID count them (thanks to The Internet Wrestling Database). In WWE/World Title matches, Edge has lost 16 times (not counting DQs and Countouts). Add in 4 more if you want to count 6-pack matches and Elimination Chambers, and you get 20 losses. This is from January of 2005-March 2011, which is 3 years LESS then Hogan. Why such a big discrepancy, you ask? Because Hulk Hogan, whenever he challenged for the Championship, WON the match. Edge has PLENTY of losses when challenging for the title.


Basically, what will happen is Hogan destroys Edge, maybe even gives him a Leg Drop on the Chair, then climbs the ladder (taking his sweet time) and wins the match.

And if anyone again tries to bring up the Canada bullshit, don't. Hogan is LOVED in Canada, even though he's a Real American. Edge will entice the crowd to hate him, which any heel would do coming into a situation where they'd get cheered.

 

[El Rev sXe]

2. Edge is 2-2 in Singles Ladder/TLC Matches (both are practically interchangeable) since winning his first championship (which would be considered the start of his prime, which is what I use to look at who wins). His wins were against Old Man Flair (TLC Match) and Undertaker (TLC Match), while he lost to John Cena (the closest guy to Hogan), and Druggie Hardy. That's hardly a stunning record, and anything done in multi-man Ladder/TLC matches doesn't matter, because the added people all in the ring at the same time creates a totally different match. People act like he's a TLC/Ladder God, and he's really not. He's .500.

Of course it's impressive, it doesn't matter the circumstances, Edge won a record ladder match and variations. The same can be said about HHH on HiaC macthes and elimination chambers. You wanna know how Edge is a TLC god? Take a look at what he has done in every match, STEAL THE SHOW and revolutionized every match. Or are you going to say that everytime Edge had a ladder match you didn't had big expectations for it?

3. While Edge is the "Ultimate Opportunist," Hulk Hogan is the ultimate WINNER. the number of Title Matches (this is ultimately a Title Match) in which Hulk Hogan in his prime lost (by pin/submission) can be counted on 1 hand. In fact, the answer is 4. Andre The Giant at The Main Event in 87/88 thanks to buying off a ref (can't do that here), The Ultimate Warrior at Mania VI, Taker at Survivor Series 91, and Yoko at King of the Ring 93. So in Hogans prime (January 1984-June 1993), he was decisively defeated 4 times.

Edge, on the other hand, lost more big matches then you can count. Actually, to be fair, I DID count them (thanks to The Internet Wrestling Database). In WWE/World Title matches, Edge has lost 16 times (not counting DQs and Countouts). Add in 4 more if you want to count 6-pack matches and Elimination Chambers, and you get 20 losses. This is from January of 2005-March 2011, which is 3 years LESS then Hogan. Why such a big discrepancy, you ask? Because Hulk Hogan, whenever he challenged for the Championship, WON the match. Edge has PLENTY of losses when challenging for the title.

Come on man, you are comparing two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT eras of wrestling. Sure, at Hogan's prime the champion was always champion around a year if not more. At Edge's prime, it started what we, IWC, are always complaining, the reigns are too short. I bet you're thinking "but Cena had a one year title reign". Yes he did, but who the fuck was going to beat him besides Edge? There wasn't anyone credible to beat him FOR the championship. Now again I can see you saying "yeah but Edge isn't credible enough to beat Hogan." Not in a normal environment, but this being the TLC, a match liked or not, is mastered by Edge, he can actually be at Hogan's level. Like I said before, take a look at Edge's losses: against Cena, he was FU'd from the TOP of the ladder towards TWO tables. That was what was needed in order to keep Edge down. Now against Hady he was TRAPPED IN the freaking ladder. Now are you going to tell me that Hogan can do something like Cena did because they both have something like the "hulk up"? This particulary match doesn't involve legacy or draw, is about being a fuckin T-L-C match. There is no way that a big boot and a leg drop would keep Edge down long enough for Hogan to climb the ladder and get the win. If it was a match that end via pinfall I could argue it either but not going to do it... Anyway, that being said what Hogan can do to keep Edge down? Tossing him from the ladder? That is like having a submission on a submission match. Giving him a leg drop from the top of the ladder? Yeah like Hogan could/would do that kind of spot.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Come on man, you are comparing two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT eras of wrestling. Sure, at Hogan's prime the champion was always champion around a year if not more. At Edge's prime, it started what we, IWC, are always complaining, the reigns are too short. I bet you're thinking "but Cena had a one year title reign". Yes he did, but who the fuck was going to beat him besides Edge? There wasn't anyone credible to beat him FOR the championship. Now again I can see you saying "yeah but Edge isn't credible enough to beat Hogan." Not in a normal environment, but this being the TLC, a match liked or not, is mastered by Edge, he can actually be at Hogan's level. Like I said before, take a look at Edge's losses: against Cena, he was FU'd from the TOP of the ladder towards TWO tables. That was what was needed in order to keep Edge down. Now against Hady he was TRAPPED IN the freaking ladder. Now are you going to tell me that Hogan can do something like Cena did because they both have something like the "hulk up"? This particulary match doesn't involve legacy or draw, is about being a fuckin T-L-C match. There is no way that a big boot and a leg drop would keep Edge down long enough for Hogan to climb the ladder and get the win. If it was a match that end via pinfall I could argue it either but not going to do it... Anyway, that being said what Hogan can do to keep Edge down? Tossing him from the ladder? That is like having a submission on a submission match. Giving him a leg drop from the top of the ladder? Yeah like Hogan could/would do that kind of spot.

Your arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You can't say "Edge is the MASTER of the TLC match", which is kayfabe, and then dismiss the length of title reigns because of the "era." In Hogan's era there were hardly any gimmick matches, but I don't see any of the Edge supporters giving Hogan a break, they're using it against him in the argument.

As to your point about Hogan being able to put Edge down, Hogan was able to put down bigger and badder men than Edge long enough for him to climb up one side and down the other of Big Blue, the old steel cage, which is much bigger than a ladder in a ladder match.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Of course it's impressive, it doesn't matter the circumstances, Edge won a record ladder match and variations. The same can be said about HHH on HiaC macthes and elimination chambers. You wanna know how Edge is a TLC god? Take a look at what he has done in every match, STEAL THE SHOW and revolutionized every match. Or are you going to say that everytime Edge had a ladder match you didn't had big expectations for it?

OK, Edge "STEALS THE SHOW" when he's in a ladder match. Good for him. Too bad he steals it by looking good while LOSING.

This isn't a steal the show in a ladder match contest. It's a wrestling match. Edge will try and steal the show by putting on an exhilarating performance, but will lose, because Hulk Hogan is better in virtually every facet of professional wrestling (ring-work, mic-work, recognition, ability to get others over, etc).

And again, he won multi-man Ladder Matches. Those are COMPLETELY different from 1-on-1 Ladder Matches. Those matches really play up the whole "Ultimate Opportunist" thing, because it's more about survival then obliterating the opponent. Here, Edge can't win by being lucky (which is how you win multi-man ladder matches). Edge has to win by KOing his opponent, which he is .500 in (much like how he's .500 for his career pretty much).

Come on man, you are comparing two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT eras of wrestling.

That doesn't matter when you consider that Hogan never lost and Edge rarely ever won. Especially when you consider that Hogan never lost when Challenging for the Worlds Title.

Sure, at Hogan's prime the champion was always champion around a year if not more. At Edge's prime, it started what we, IWC, are always complaining, the reigns are too short. I bet you're thinking "but Cena had a one year title reign". Yes he did, but who the fuck was going to beat him besides Edge? There wasn't anyone credible to beat him FOR the championship.

So, people can argue that Edge is better because he won the belt more (a DIRECT result of shorter reigns), but arguing length of reigns isn't allowed? That's a double standard if I ever saw one.

And I'm not arguing that Hogans better because he had the belt longer, I'm arguing that Hogans better because he did better with the belt, and he didn't lose when he had (or was chasing) the belt. Edge loses all the time, Hogan doesn't.

Now again I can see you saying "yeah but Edge isn't credible enough to beat Hogan." Not in a normal environment, but this being the TLC, a match liked or not, is mastered by Edge, he can actually be at Hogan's level.

No, he can NEVER get to Hogans level. Ever. Hogan is levels above virtually everyone in the history of the business, including Rock, Austin, etc. Edge is a glorified upper mid-card guy who can't draw. Does the TLC Stip give Edge a better chance? Of course it does, I'm not saying Edge isn't more adept at Ladder/TLC Matches then Hogan, I'm saying that Hogan is so damn far ahead of Edge that regardless of the Match Type Hogan goes over EASY. By your logic, we should vote Matt Hardy (just as much a Ladder Match Specialist) over Hulk Hogan. That's just as much a crock of shit as Edge over Hogan.

Like I said before, take a look at Edge's losses: against Cena, he was FU'd from the TOP of the ladder towards TWO tables. That was what was needed in order to keep Edge down. Now against Hady he was TRAPPED IN the freaking ladder.

So Hogan sees Edge climbing the ladder, then shoves/throws him off (staying on the Ladder) and wins. OK.

If you wanna look at Edges losses, lets look at Hogans only 4 losses in his entire prime. It took Andre/DiBiase paying off a referee, The Undertaker using a Steel Chair thanks to repeated interference by Flair/Bearer, The Ultimate Warrior (whom Hogan kicked out of his finisher at 3.5), and Yokozuna (thanks to a camera exploding in Hogans face and interference from Mr. Fugi).

Edge loses clean to a wrestlers finisher more often then not. Hogan needs a shit-ton of outside help just to lose, and even then half of his losses he got right up after 4 seconds.

Now are you going to tell me that Hogan can do something like Cena did because they both have something like the "hulk up"?

I'm telling you very clearly, and even you should admit this), that Hogan can very easily throw Edge off the ladder if the situation ever warranted it. I doubt the situation would warrant it though, because Hogan has kept people down for a long time with his offense without the need of weapons.

This particulary match doesn't involve legacy or draw, is about being a fuckin T-L-C match. There is no way that a big boot and a leg drop would keep Edge down long enough for Hogan to climb the ladder and get the win.

Here's a video of all time great (and should be Hall of Famer) Randy Macho Man Savage wrestling Hulk Hogan.
[YOUTUBE]C00Cw-iPrC4[/YOUTUBE]
At 4:36, Hogan hits the big leg (after the big boot). Savage doesn't get up until 5:18, which according to my math, is 42 seconds later. Are you telling me Hogan can't Hulk Up, hit the Boot/Leg, then climb in 42 seconds? Now imagine Hogan using weapons on his opponent before hitting the boot/leg. Edge might not get up until Tomorrow noon.

If it was a match that end via pinfall I could argue it either but not going to do it... Anyway, that being said what Hogan can do to keep Edge down? Tossing him from the ladder? That is like having a submission on a submission match. Giving him a leg drop from the top of the ladder? Yeah like Hogan could/would do that kind of spot.

No, Hogan will just do his normal offense, which is enough to keep wrestler down for 40 seconds. Add weapons, and no way Edge gets up with enough time to get his bearings and push over the Ladder.

And Hogan, as I said earlier, if need be was on the ladder at the same time as Edge, he throws him off (while staying on the ladder) and wins the match. Hogan never takes big bumps, and won't start here.

Hogan, again rather easily, wins here, unless people are stupid and vote for Edge (which obviously some people are here). Outside of personal preference (a rather cheap method of choosing), there is no reason Edge beats Hogan here. None whatsoever.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Your arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You can't say "Edge is the MASTER of the TLC match", which is kayfabe, and then dismiss the length of title reigns because of the "era." In Hogan's era there were hardly any gimmick matches, but I don't see any of the Edge supporters giving Hogan a break, they're using it against him in the argument.

As to your point about Hogan being able to put Edge down, Hogan was able to put down bigger and badder men than Edge long enough for him to climb up one side and down the other of Big Blue, the old steel cage, which is much bigger than a ladder in a ladder match.

I'm too lazy right now, but I am going to respond you only to the last part. Well back then, it would take a leg drop and a boot to the face to keep someone down (if you want, also bouncing the head against the steal, yet that only involves one weapon). Like I said before many times now, it took Cena, "the modern Hulk Hogan" to FU Edge from the top of the ladder onto two tables. I insist, I have serious doubts that Hogan could do something similar. Besides that is basically every ending in TLC/Ladder matches: a big final spot, something Hogan isn't too familiared with. I haven't seen any TLC match were the match ends because somene hit their normal finisher.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I'm too lazy right now, but I am going to respond you only to the last part. Well back then, it would take a leg drop and a boot to the face to keep someone down (if you want, also bouncing the head against the steal, yet that only involves one weapon). Like I said before many times now, it took Cena, "the modern Hulk Hogan" to FU Edge from the top of the ladder onto two tables. I insist, I have serious doubts that Hogan could do something similar. Besides that is basically every ending in TLC/Ladder matches: a big final spot, something Hogan isn't too familiared with. I haven't seen any TLC match were the match ends because somene hit their normal finisher.

Let me get this straight. You have serious doubts that Hulk Hogan, a 303 pound steroid using bodybuilder that bodyslammed 600 pound Andre The Giant in 1987, can't put Edge on his shoulders and throw him off a ladder? Are you insane?

No wonder you voted for Edge, you clearly have never seen Hulk Hogan before.

There is no logical reason why you can't see Hogan being able to throw Edge off the ladder. None whatsoever. Hogan is one of the strongest wrestlers of the era. Hogan is physically much bigger then Edge.

Even your fellow Edgeheads would have to concede that Hogan can throw Edge off the ladder with ease.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Okay Stormtrooper, I'm tired so this will be my last post of the day, I hope we can have a great debate. I'll be looking forward to your response

OK, Edge "STEALS THE SHOW" when he's in a ladder match. Good for him. Too bad he steals it by looking good while LOSING.

Edge lost ONE mano a mano TLC, against Cena. Like I said before, it is a syllogism to say since Edge lost to Cena, Edge will lose to Hogan. Besides that, too bad Edge had only ONE single TLC in order to start comparisons.

This isn't a steal the show in a ladder match contest. It's a wrestling match. Edge will try and steal the show by putting on an exhilarating performance, but will lose, because Hulk Hogan is better in virtually every facet of professional wrestling (ring-work, mic-work, recognition, ability to get others over, etc).

I agree, this isn't a "steal the show" match. However like I said after in my previous post, this isn't about draw, mic work etc... That's why there is a stipulation that favors Edge.

And again, he won multi-man Ladder Matches. Those are COMPLETELY different from 1-on-1 Ladder Matches. Those matches really play up the whole "Ultimate Opportunist" thing, because it's more about survival then obliterating the opponent. Here, Edge can't win by being lucky (which is how you win multi-man ladder matches). Edge has to win by KOing his opponent, which he is .500 in (much like how he's .500 for his career pretty much).

Well I don't have much to say since this is a description of the TLC match, sort of.

So, people can argue that Edge is better because he won the belt more (a DIRECT result of shorter reigns), but arguing length of reigns isn't allowed? That's a double standard if I ever saw one.

No, I'm not saying that Edge is better than Hogan overall, but in this really specific case where titles and lenghts doesn't matter but it does matter experience in the match and also being smart, and yes "OPPORTUNISTIC".

And I'm not arguing that Hogans better because he had the belt longer, I'm arguing that Hogans better because he did better with the belt, and he didn't lose when he had (or was chasing) the belt. Edge loses all the time, Hogan doesn't.

While this may be true, this has nothing to do with winning the match since what you are stating is AFTER winning the belt.

No, he can NEVER get to Hogans level. Ever. Hogan is levels above virtually everyone in the history of the business, including Rock, Austin, etc. Edge is a glorified upper mid-card guy who can't draw. Does the TLC Stip give Edge a better chance? Of course it does, I'm not saying Edge isn't more adept at Ladder/TLC Matches then Hogan, I'm saying that Hogan is so damn far ahead of Edge that regardless of the Match Type Hogan goes over EASY. By your logic, we should vote Matt Hardy (just as much a Ladder Match Specialist) over Hulk Hogan. That's just as much a crock of shit as Edge over Hogan.

Please, if you wanna go there by your logic there shouldn't be a tournament since Hogan IS Hogan, the greatest wrestler, the man who made Wrestlemania balbalabla and unable to lose anything, anywhere. Not even in a match where he has 0 experience nor the ability to do a move so hard (such as the FU from the top of the ladder onto two tables) to keep Edge down.

So Hogan sees Edge climbing the ladder, then shoves/throws him off (staying on the Ladder) and wins. OK.

Dude that is like in a hardcore match having one hit with a chair, pretty common and unneffective as welll as shoving the ladder.

If you wanna look at Edges losses, lets look at Hogans only 4 losses in his entire prime. It took Andre/DiBiase paying off a referee, The Undertaker using a Steel Chair thanks to repeated interference by Flair/Bearer, The Ultimate Warrior (whom Hogan kicked out of his finisher at 3.5), and Yokozuna (thanks to a camera exploding in Hogans face and interference from Mr. Fugi).

Case for case, Edge wouldn't/can't buy a referee while at some point he had Vickie as the referee, obviously irrelevant for a TLC match. Taker using a steal chair thanks to inteference from 2 persons? Hmm Edge using a chair in a tables, ladders and chairs match is impossible . Having interference from two people, that's nothing for the ultimate opportunist he can bring up to 5 people! La Familia sounds about right. Using his finisher, in a match where he has hit it from the top of the ladder and where the pinfall isn't necessary in order to win? CHECKED. Exploding a camera? Well, I must be honest I haven't seen Edge doing that to anyone but he does have experience hitting the Undertaker with a camera to screw him.
Besides buying the referee, Edge has the experience as heel in order to get a win over Hogan.

Edge loses clean to a wrestlers finisher more often then not. Hogan needs a shit-ton of outside help just to lose, and even then half of his losses he got right up after 4 seconds.

Like it's been already said, Edge has an entire familia to keep Hogan down, just like he did with the Undertaker.

I'm telling you very clearly, and even you should admit this), that Hogan can very easily throw Edge off the ladder if the situation ever warranted it. I doubt the situation would warrant it though, because Hogan has kept people down for a long time with his offense without the need of weapons.

Yeah, it happens in every single TLC/ladder match where X wrestler pushes the ladder where Y wrestler is on. He then falls onto the mat/outside the ring/table. Either way, that hasn't kept Edge down.

Here's a video of all time great (and should be Hall of Famer) Randy Macho Man Savage wrestling Hulk Hogan.
[YOUTUBE]C00Cw-iPrC4[/YOUTUBE]
At 4:36, Hogan hits the big leg (after the big boot). Savage doesn't get up until 5:18, which according to my math, is 42 seconds later. Are you telling me Hogan can't Hulk Up, hit the Boot/Leg, then climb in 42 seconds? Now imagine Hogan using weapons on his opponent before hitting the boot/leg. Edge might not get up until Tomorrow noon.

My internet is a piece of shit so I couldn't see the whole vid (thanks for the example btw! ), yet I suppose this was a REGULAR match. Edge could get up, and even if he couldn't there would be an opportunistic interference from Lita, la Familia, Christian etc. buying him enough time to get on the ladder just like he did in his match against Cena.

And Hogan, as I said earlier, if need be was on the ladder at the same time as Edge, he throws him off (while staying on the ladder) and wins the match. Hogan never takes big bumps, and won't start here.

Maybe in your last part, you are right he doesn't take big bumps, but then again interference time buying Edge some time.

Hogan, again rather easily, wins here, unless people are stupid and vote for Edge (which obviously some people are here). Outside of personal preference (a rather cheap method of choosing), there is no reason Edge beats Hogan here. None whatsoever.

Well after debating with you I have two words for ya (nothing to do with sucking something) SCREW JOB. Just like with Matt Hady, la Familia would rush to the ring and tie/trapp (whatever you want to call it) Hogan letting Edge go to the top of the ladder and getting the title. If your not down with that, Edge could do the screw a la Taker, either way Edge would SCREW Hogan.

Well, that was exhausting... but pretty cool.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Infront of the Canadian audience and in his gimmick match of choice I have to go with Edge in this one. He will certainly not win the tournament but against Hogan in this type of match you cannot look past him.

Hogan has very little experience in any type of extreme style match, and against a man who made his name in ladder matches he will come up short, albeit after putting up a great fight. We need to remember here folks, that this is not some random wrestler in a TLC match, this is probably the greatest of all time, the man who can fight back from anything. This is Hulk Hogan.

He would be able to take multiple con-chair-to's, spears from the ladder, going through a table and still manage to Hulk-Up and take the fight back to Edge. However, the experience of this type of match that Edge has would provide him with enough in ring smarts to out-fox Hogan and give him the "edge" (Pun intended!)

While Hogan is climbing the ladder, an Edge dropkick from the turnbuckle would send the Immortal one off the ladder and through a table, giving the Rated R Superstar the time needed to climb the ladder and win the match.

Edge would have taken alot of punishment in this one though, severely weakening him for the next round.

 

[JXL]

Really?

Even the power of Hulkamania can't go over in a match that this man has more experience in than anyone. Edge will dominate here, this is his repitoire, his event, his match. Say what you will about Hulk going over in other matches in this tourney, he will have trouble in a TLC match.

My vote: Edge

 

[Big Sexy]

You're right, this just isn't a match. This is a TLC match, which is Edge's match. I dont agree with the assessment that Cena is nowhere near as good as Hogan is, as he's certainly been pushed that way. If anything, Cena is the better wrestler, and more agile and athletic then Hogan was in his prime. Cena was also wrestling for his job, something Hogan isnt doing here. Its not as if Cena owned Edge in the match, in fact, it was as much of back and forth affair as youre going to see. Why would this match be any different, and whose to say it couldn't turn out the other way?

Cena isn't exactly Rey Mysterio. He may have a SLIGHT agility edge over a prime Hogan but Hogan wasn't a cripple. He was more then athletic enough to beat a guy like Edge in a TLC match. The match would be close because Hogan's matches were always close. For all the winning he did he still always made his opponents look great much like John Cena. And also like Cena this isn't a match that Hogan would lose.

It was 3 people(Ryder, Hawkins, and Chavo), but I get the point. Im not necessarily saying that interference would make a difference here, but if it did, I think it would favor Edge. Not in the who, as that would be laughably in the favor of Hogan. But the when in which the interference is used would be another story. Again, being that this is Edge's match, I think he'ld have one ace up his sleeve that Hogan wouldnt be able to account for. It appered Taker had the interference accounted for against Edge, and it went down in exactly the same fashion.

It was 4 people as Bam Neely was also involved. It became a 5-1 handicap match essentially and it literally took all 5 guys to defeat Taker. He dominated the match for the most part and had there been one or two less guys interfering there is no doubt he would have won. Hogan always had people who had his back when there was foul play from his heel opponent. Jimmy Snuka at Mania 1, Tugboat at Summerslam 90, Warrior at Mania 8, not to mention all the friends he had that he often teamed with like JYD, Hillbilly Jim, Savage at some points, Warrior, etc.. The interference part of this match is virtually a non factor.

If thats what I had been doing, you would be right. My point here is that Edge has wrestled in every type of TLC match imaginable and has come out on top in almost each. I don't care who he was wrestling in a Fatal Four Way TLC match. Being the victor is an impressive feat, and it only furthers Edge's legacy and experience within this match. Edge would be the "veteran" in this match type and Hogan the "rookie".

Obviously Hogan would be the rookie but that has never stopped him before. He was a rookie against Don Muraco in a cage match and still won. He was a rookie against Harley Race in a Texas Death Match and still won. He was a rookie against Vader in a strap match and still won. And while Edge may be a veteran he hasn't exactly been overly impressive in one on one TLC matches. He barely beat a 57 year old Flair, he needed 4 guys to beat Taker, and he lost to John Cena.

Not at all. But everyone is so quickly to dismiss every Edge victory to "special circumstances" when you need to look at it for what it is. Another win for Edge within the TLC environment against one of the greatest wrestlers to ever go.

But a victory wouldn't happen in this environment against a guy like Hogan and history has proven that. Hogan rarely lost and when he did it certainly wasn't to a guy like Edge no matter what the environment. Edge's only semi impressive one on one TLC match victory was over Taker and again, had their not been 4 guys interfering the outcome would have been different.

In any other match, I would tend to agree. I hold the TLC match with Edge's experience and overall performance in said matches in higher esteem then you obviously do, and I think that would make the difference.

You can say it would make a difference all you want but nothing you have debated thus far shows that Edge would beat Hogan. In fact no one debating for Edge has shown me a legitimate reason (that can't be easily refuted) why Edge would win. I keep seeing the same 3 arguments for Edge:

1. He has experience: That's all well and good but that experience meant jack shit against a rookie to the match in Cena because Edge lost.

2. Hogan has no experience: I've already shown multiple examples of Hogan not having any experience in a match and still coming out on top against guys with experience.

3. Edge would have interference: Edge's interference would be off set by Hogan's buddies. I've shown multiple example of this as well.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Really?

Even the power of Hulkamania can't go over in a match that this man has more experience in than anyone. Edge will dominate here, this is his repitoire, his event, his match. Say what you will about Hulk going over in other matches in this tourney, he will have trouble in a TLC match.

My vote: Edge

Yes, because wrestlers dominate matches in which it is their repitoire. That Undertaker sure has a great record in Buried Alive matches. HBK is stellar in ladder matches.

Jeff Hardy has more TLC/ladder match experience than Edge. You forgot that and yes, I'm excluding ladder matches because in theory they shouldn't be any different than a TLC match.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Let me get this straight. You have serious doubts that Hulk Hogan, a 303 pound steroid using bodybuilder that bodyslammed 600 pound Andre The Giant in 1987, can't put Edge on his shoulders and throw him off a ladder? Are you insane?

No wonder you voted for Edge, you clearly have never seen Hulk Hogan before.

There is no logical reason why you can't see Hogan being able to throw Edge off the ladder. None whatsoever. Hogan is one of the strongest wrestlers of the era. Hogan is physically much bigger then Edge.

Even your fellow Edgeheads would have to concede that Hogan can throw Edge off the ladder with ease.

Throwing Edge from the ladder? Again, that is so basic in a fucking ladder match as hitting a chair shot in hardocre match; in both cases comon and uneffective. Take a look at Cena's TLC match, he did the exact same thing, Edge bounced back towards the ladder, shoving the ladder and sending Cena onto a table outside the ring.

Of course Higan can push Edge from the ladder, or shove the ladder, either way in Edge's ladder/TLC matches, it wasn't enough.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm not running the tournament, KB is. Now you sound stupid.

Sorry, I wasn't aware of KB being above you in decision making ability. My apologies for you only being 2nd best.

Don't think I did this at all. Just because you don't quote my entire post, doesn't mean it didn't actually exist. I debunked two of the biggest reasons Edge backers were giving, and proved them to be completely silly.

I was speaking in a general understanding, I do believe. I don't think you actually were "quoted" in saying that, but you are backing Hogan which obviously means through some understanding you believe it. One in the same.

It's funny that you also claim to debunk two of the biggest reasons why Edge should win, yet the only reason I keep hearing on why Hogan should win.. .. is because he is Hogan, and was huge during his era. That isn't so much of a reason, more than an excuse to say the guy was in the right place, at the right time, regardless of whether he had the actual ability to win this style of match - against this specific opponent - or not.

I could easily debunk "Hogan wins because he's Hogan", by replying with "Edge wins because he's Edge". I know it sounds completely stupid, and I honestly want it to. Maybe that'll make Hogan supporters finally come to terms with how they look when they post it.

Every World title Edge has held came at a time when there was no less than two, and sometimes three, World titles.

Forget whether he deserved them, let's talk about his opportunities to win them. Then we can talk about how LONG he held them.

1. Yes, Edge was a World Champion when multiple World titles were around. That does not excuse, or ignore, the fact that several high profile wrestlers have still never won the World Championship as many times as he has. Nor have they Main Evented, or been apart of a Main Event caliber setting - as much as he has.

2. Now, you're speaking on his opportunities to win them. Well, look at that - Edge constantly won through underhanded tactics when he didn't have to win straight-up. Although he's proven he can win straight up if he needs to. In this style of match, you don't have to win straight up, you can win through underhanded tactics. Which Edge is a master of.

Now, before you revert back to saying Flair is better than Edge, and Hogan bested Flair - I'll counter that by simply saying.. Edge has come a long way since the modern era of Flair and Hogan. Wrestling is constantly evolving, and new individuals are finding more methods of winning via cheating, and creatively coming up with tactics to win without it being straight forward.

I recall Savage tying Crush up at Mania X, and winning by beating him back to the ring. I recall Cena duck taping Batista in a LMS match, and winning because Batista was unable to untie himself in time. There is no logical reason to believe Hogan can not be screwed because Edge has come further in his career, with better ways of cheating - or pulling out underhanded methods, that Hogan couldn't possibly adapt to quick enough to still win.

Hogan was beaten by the Undertaker (w/ Flair's help) by a single Tombstone on a chair. He was beaten by Flair, because of a tire iron. Hogan has been beaten by what could be considered "weak" weapon shots in today's era. Edge has taken multiple chair shots, and survived. He's went through tables, fallen off ladders, done it all - and still found ways to win. Hogan isn't built to survive this type of punishment, and that is proven by showing you how easily he's been beaten by one chair shot, or one tire iron to the head.

How about because Hulk Hogan in his prime was unbeatable, whereas Edge has proven time and again to rely on circumstance to win? How about because Edge can't even win a TLC match in Canada against John Cena, the man many people claim to be a modern-day Hogan? How about because Edge is an average, at best, in-ring worker, and Hogan was one of the best in history? How about because Hogan's bandanna draws better than Edge's wrestling?

How are those reasons?

They're typical responses, but nothing that's untouchable.

1.) Hogan was largely unbeatable, but also worked a lot less televised/high profile shows. It's very similar to explaining how Goldberg went undefeated for 170+ matches - but to break that apart would show a large number of those matches are against cruiserweights and no-names who stood no chance. Hogan won a lot because he wasn't on multiple weekly shows, or doing ppv's once/twice a month. Back then, they had 4-5 ppvs a year. If even that.

2.) Edge lost once to John Cena, in Canada, because of Lita's interference backfiring. I've said this once before and you can clearly watch the match to see Edge had it won until she got involved for all the wrong reasons.

Edge has also defeated John Cena in his hometown, so I guess that means Edge can beat Hogan when the crowd is solidly against him all the same.

And before I get a "Cena isn't Hogan" reply, or a "It wasn't in a TLC match" counter.. a win is a win, and if people insist on using Cena to play off as a modern day Hogan, then I can use Edge beat Cena just as much through multiple ways - so he can beat Hogan, just as easily.

3.) As far as in-ring ability, I'll credit you by saying Hogan deserves more credit for his in-ring work than he's given.. but he can't touch Edge for the number of things that can be done inside a ring. Hogan, even in his prime, was a very basic worker and barely did anything fancy, or outside of the typical bodyslam, suplex, or powerslam. It worked for him, and that's what is most important - but going back to the evolution of wrestling - Edge can, seriously, wrestle circles around anything Hogan has in his moveset. Why? Because Edge has felt every move that Hogan's ever done, and many, many more.

4.) The mere fact that Hogan's merch. is a drawing point doesn't show you how good he is, it shows you how well the Company built him into a legend. Last time I checked, he isn't exactly producing TNA better numbers than Smackdown - so I guess that means Edge > Hogan.

Nope, but he damn sure lost FAR fewer matches in his prime than Edge did, and Hogan damn sure won a higher percentage of matches cleanly and fairly in his prime than Edge did.

Hogan was largely a face in his "prime", Edge was a heel in his. That explains why one constantly won more than the other. It has no relevance here, unless you want to get into the situation of storyline..

And storyline says that with Austin currently destroying Vader in the polls (last I checked), that he'd face a natural heel instead of a bigger face.. which indicated Edge pulls out a cheap victory that increases people's hatred for him, and fuels their love in cheering for Austin next round.

Oh please, Will, just cut the bullshit, and say what you really mean.

"I'm voting Edge here because if he wins, I'll feel like I'm single-handedly responsible for getting an IWC favorite past an IWC villain, and then will sing my own praises for how great of a debate I put up throughout the tournament. I'm voting Edge because it stimulates my ego."

Be honest Will, THAT'S the real reason you're voting for Edge.

So, unless you want to give Will an even bigger ego than he already has in this WZ tournament, vote for Hulk Hogan. Not only will you be keeping Will's head from swelling past the point of exploding, you also get the added benefit of voting for the far superior wrestler, and the wrestler who, in kayfabe, would undoubtedly go over Edge.

Vote for Hogan. You can't lose.

I don't have a pie chart to point out how accurate you are in any of this, but I suppose all I can say is.. You claim Hogan should win and there is nothing that could be said to change that. So, with that being understood I guess all I have to say is..

A vote for Edge, is a vote in proving Sly was wrong. If you want to be apart of a group that knows they defeated Sly in something, vote for Edge.

 

[gd]

Hulk Hogan can climb a fucking ladder, I'm pretty sure of that. He is the greatest pro wrestler of all time and virtually unbeatable unless you are a crazy nutjob with face paint. Edge is one of the most underwhelming main eventers of our generation.

I see no reason why this vote should even be close, let alone Edge in the lead by a double digit margin. It is mind bottling to say the least.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I voted for Hogan. Look, I get this is TLC, it's Edge's match, and it's in Canada. Wonderful. All these things are in Edge's favour right? Not really no. One simple match totally debunks these theories: John Cena vs. Edge at Unforgiven 2006. In a TLC match, in Canada, John Cena (this generation’s Hogan) defeated Edge. That simply does it right there. I'm voting for Hogan, and I see no reason why you shouldn't too.