Calgary Region, Third Round: Ladder: (4) Vader vs. (5) Lou Thesz

Discussion in 'Calgary Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 10, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Vader

  2. Lou Thesz

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    The following contest is a third round match in the Calgary Region.

    This match takes place in the Saddledome in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

    [​IMG]

    It is a Ladder Match.

    Rules: In this match, there no disqualifications or count-outs. Victory is attained by using a ladder to reach the object hung above the ring. The person to pull it down and maintain possession of it on the mat in the winner.

    #4 Vader

    [​IMG]

    Vs.

    #5 Lou Thesz

    [​IMG]

    This contest is one fall with a 30 minute time limit. The match will take place in a 16 x 16 ring with no ramp leading to it. Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside.

    As for voting, vote for who you think would win this match based on the criteria you choose. Some suggestions would be (not limited to): in ring ability, overall skill, their level of influence at the highest point in their career, ability to connect with the crowd, experience in major matches or simply personal preference etc.

    The most votes in the voting period wins and in the case of a tie, the most written votes wins. There is one written vote per user, meaning if a poster make ten posts saying Bret should win that will count as a single vote. In the event of a second tie, both men are ELIMINATED, no questions asked. Only winners advance.

    Voting will open in 48 hours and will be open for five days and all posts must be non-spam. You may use the 48 hours to present your cases as to why either competitor should/should not win.​
     
    #1
  2. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    1. Spare me the idea that Vader's size puts him at a disadvantage in this match. It doesn't.

    Kane won the most recent Money in the Bank match, and he's not much smaller than Vader is and certainly no more agile. Vader could get up a ladder as well as anyone not named Hardy, Edge, Christian, or Jericho. In fact, be prepared to see Vader deliver at least a Vader-Bomb off the ladder to take out some of Thesz's ribs.

    2. Though Vader's isn't a ladder match competitor, the gimmick match concept is less foreign to him that it is to Thesz.

    Thesz is a terrific pure wrestler. As I mentioned in my "Why Vader beats Lou Thesz" thread, gimmick matches are all but foreign to Lou. I am not even aware that he's ever wrestled in a cage or not - he probably has, but he's not known for any gimmick matches. Vader defeated Cactus Jack in a Texas Death Match. Vader understands what gimmick matches with odd rules require, and climbing a ladder isn't rocket science.

    3. The Damage Factor. Lou Thesz, a 225 lb man, swings a ladder at you. It hurts. Vader, a 450+ lb man, swings a ladder at you, and it knocks your ass clear into next Tuesday. Vader will be able to do so much more damage to Thesz with each strike of the ladder than Thesz would do to Vader in reverse. Furthermore, if Vader flies OFF of the ladder for a splash, bomb, or godforbid a moonsault or power bomb, get the stretcher ready!

    4. Vader will be prepped. I am not going to pull the weak "Vader has Harley Race at ringside" card, because no he fucking doesn't. I'm done with the outside interference trying to create new ways to get guys over. But that notwithstanding, Race was Vader's manager, and Race wrestled Thesz. Yes, Thesz beat Race, but Vader has far more physical tools that Race ever did, and Race will be able to prep Vader on how to fight Thesz. Who's going to prep Thesz on how to fight a Mastadon?

    [​IMG]

    "You ever fight a dinosaur kid? They can cause a variety of damage..."

    A combination of speed and agility along with outright brutality is going to give Vader the win in this match. 3,000+ days as NWA champion in the 60's shouldn't convince anybody otherwise.

    Read my list of why Vader goes over Thesz here:

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=2923952#post2923952
     
    #2
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  3. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    So speed and agility are why a 450+ pound man is going to win this match? Speed and agility clearly favor Thesz. Vader is only agile when the qualifier for his size is attached. Too bad the people you list that could go up the ladder better than Vader make relevant size comparisons to Thesz. Maybe Thesz worked in an era where gimmick matches were not common but he knows a thing or two from his era about the stiff style everyone is obsessed with Vader for, so he will be more than prepared for it. Also, Vader has never been in a ladder match either. His body makeup is going to be the issue when it comes to using the ladder. The available weapon works against Vader because no matter how you get hit with a ladder it does significant damage which takes away some of the advantage Vader would have normally with his power game. Flair beat Vader in a cage, surely Thesz can beat him in a match that favors the more agile performer.
     
    #3
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  4. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    Vader wins here. First and foremost, Vader has fought in all sorts of matches with crazy stipulations and crazy situations, while I'm fairly certain that Thesz has fought in nothing but straight wrestling matches. The idea of climbing a ladder while a 450 pound man is trying to kill you probably wouldn't sit too well with Thesz, and I'm pretty sure there is no strategy for avoiding this besides trying to make sure Vader is totally incapacitated before beginning the climb up the ladder.

    That brings us to Thesz's second problem, he has to incapacitate Vader in order to even attempt to get to the top of the ladder. Bigger, meaner, and better men have tried, and they have failed. Vader is a guy who kept going after his eye fell out. Assuming Thesz can even start to wear down Vader, there is no way he could even come close to doing as much damage to the Mastodon as Stan Hansen did.

    So where does this leave Lou Thesz? Bulldozed, barely conscious, lying down on a ladder staring up at a 450 pound beast who is about to fly from 20 feet in the air down on his body, effectively creating a Thesz sandwich. From there, it will be simple for Vader to climb up the ladder and retrieve the hanging object.

    Lous Thesz has never seen a beast like Van Vader, and he has never been in a match like a ladder match. To quote The Big Lebowski, "You're out of your element, Donny."

    Vader wins.
     
    #4
  5. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I have this feeling that Gelgarin is at home, reading my pro-Vader posts, cracking his kuckles, when all of a sudden he reads that Shattered Dreams is backing Lou Thesz. All of a sudden, the color drains from Gelgarin's face as he mutters to himself "...this guy!? Fuck, I'm screwed."

    SD, did you read my entire post, or is ALL you took from it "speed and agility are why Vader wins?" Because either 1) you were too lazy to read the whole post, 2) you're blatantly trying to isolate something to make your point.

    I stated clearly that, despite his size, Vader has speed and agility. No, not as much as Thesz has, but he's also not exactly Bastion Booger trying to climb a ladder. Vader narrows the speed advantage Thesz would have had over any other SHW. But of course, like so many brilliant wrestling fans before you, SD, you're just haphazardly equating size to speed and body type to agility.

    JGlass hit the nail on the head. It's going to be tough for Thesz to incapacitate Vader long enough to get the belt. Hell, Cactus Jack couldn't incapacitate Vader long enough to win a Texas Death match in 1993, and he's a psycho sumbitch.

    I am not going to call this match a walk by any stretch, but Thesz is simply overmatched by a monster with very limited, if any, true weaknesses.
     
    #5
  6. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    The size argument is a shit one to be made, certainly, but I have to pull you up on this. The Vader bomb is all about bouncing off the ropes and giving himself some leverage on the top rope to pull the move off. A ladder is a rigid object, and he has no chance. If Vader tried to hit a Vader bomb off a ladder, he'd get a faceful of rung. It's shit decision making like that that will gift Thesz the win.
    You say, rightly, that climbing a ladder isn't rocket science, but neither is hitting someone with a chair. What exactly can Vader offer? Thesz was wrestling when the moves were often real, for an hour a night. If constantly and legitimately being punched and thrown doesn't give you the resiliance for a gimmick match, I don't know what does. Thesz

    Do you know anything about physics? Your post would suggest you don't. The force of a fixed man swinging a ladder is irrelevant of their weight, it is their strength that matters, and that is much less cut and dry. Thesz may not be renown for his herculean strength, but he's certainly not half the strength of Vader.

    Well, considering Thesz fought in every territory in the world, and face literally everyone on offer, I'm sure he'd be set. If your using losers as being decent teachers, I'm sure he could ask his protege Masahiro Chono, who actually faced Vader in his prime, rather than when he was at least 50, but possibly older, as would have been the case when Race faced him. Of course, Thesz refereed some of Vader's matches in Japan, so he could probably use that first hand experience of witnessing Vader lose to know how to beat him. Poor argument anyway, since when does a loser know how to beat a winner? If my work 5 a side team played Barcelona, I wouldn't be able to tell Alex Ferguson how to beat them.

    He's neither faster nor more agile than Thesz, so that's an irrelevance. Thesz is one of the quickest wrestlers in history, and don't let the style of the time fool you. This is lifted straight from Gelgarin, so I can't claim it's my own point, but observe how quickly Thesz is on his feet after a move. It's speed, but more importantly the type of speed that matters. Brutality is irrelevant.

    The ladder matches where one wrestler would be considered more brutal than the other have ended with the less brutal one winning - Foley lost to both The Rock and Big Bossman, Austin lost to the McMahons, Sheamus lost to Morrison, Sabu lost to AJ Styles, Abyss lost to Christian. Whatever the wrestler, whatever the company, brutality does not win ladder matches. It's as simple as that.

    A list which includes Thesz's loss at the age of 61 as a factor and Vader's win over a wrestler who made a career of losing to and then beating foreign heels in Mexico as a decisive factor. I'll get right on it!


    Look, if you want to vote for one of the most popular, important wrestlers of all time, who literally beat everyone the world had to offer at home and abroad, vote Thesz. If you want to vote for a fat bloke who's sum total of wins of consequence on American soil, where this happens, are against Sting,
    a man who defeated him multiple times.

    In the early days of Thesz's career he was world champion. At 21 years old, he remains the youngest world champion in history. In the early days of Vader's career, he was losing to Stan Hansen in an AWA promotion dying on its arse.

    In the prime of Thesz's American career, he held the NWA title for 10 years and defended it by beating everyone wrestling at the time. In the prime of Vader's American career, he held a fledgling WCW's title for 10 months and defended it with some DQ defeats to Davey Boy Smith.

    In the twilight of his career, Thesz was able to fight and beat, some of the best wrestlers in history such as the aforementioned Race. In the twilight of Vader's career, he was losing to Marvellous Marc Mero.
     
    #6
  7. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    Game on.

    So we're giving the edge to the slow, overweight and uniformly inferior worker because the ladder match gimmick better suits him. Seriously?
    OK, there's a lot of expectation built up towards me and this match, so I might as well do things properly.

    As you can tell from my most recent Thesz post I can't stand being derivative and like to make each of my masterpieces feel unique, so today I am going to open up by dealing with all the arguments with Big Van Vader should win this match.

    Section the first: Vader is big.

    I might as well give this away right now. Big Van Vader is bigger than Lou Thesz. I mention this as part of a wider argument, that the mindless overrating of super-heavyweights is something that has dogged this tournament since its inception, and is something that needs to stop.

    We have fifty years of wrestling history telling us that super-heavyweights do not always win big matches. Vader's size never stopped him being pinned by guys like Inoki (who Thesz defeated), HBK, Riki Choshu, El Canek, Scott Norton, Ric Flair, Sting, Jake Roberts, Hulk Hogan, Sid Vicious, Ken Shamrock, Kane, Mark Henry, Misawa, Kobashi, and no end of guys that I've never heard of. Very few of those names even deserve comparison to Lou Thesz (who's high profile losses I can count on one hand) and provide concrete proof that Vader's size does not render him indestructible.
    Being big is not an accomplishment, please, for the love of Thesz, don't vote for the big guy just because he's big.

    Section the second: The Gimmick favors Vader

    I have to chuckle at this. The 450lb man who struggles to get beyond a walking pace for more than a couple of minutes at a time is better suited to a ladder match? Seriously?

    Now Lou Thesz has never had a ladder match. He predated gimmick matches. The style clashes violently with his traditional technical in ring style.

    Then again, Bret Hart, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit had never had ladder matches before, and the style clashed noticeably with their traditional technical in ring style, and they all did pretty well in their first ladder match outing. Please construct me a similar list of 450lb spheres who've had that kind of success in a ladder environment.

    Vader has no more experience in this environment than Thesz, and his size gives him tremendous physical disadvantages. There is absolutely no way that Vader could scale the ladder with any kind of speed. To be frank I'm doubtful that health and safety would want him going near the top at all, pro wrestling ladders and not very sturdy.
    Secondly, if Thesz takes a bump off a ladder then he gets back up again, he's taken plenty of similar bumps in his time. If Vader takes a bumb off a ladder then that's it, game over. The man was bad enough at getting to his feat at the best of times, let alone after a fall like that.

    Vader would be slower getting the ladder. Slower climbing the ladder. Less stable on the ladder. Would suffer more from falling off the ladder and has absolutely no more experience using the ladder.

    Remind me again why the stipulation favors Vader please?

    Section the Third: Vader once pushed his eye back in.

    Christ alive if any of you bring this up then you are so fucking inferior to me as a poster then I have no desire to deal with you. The man pushed his eye back in... so what? Mick Foley severed his ear, doesn't change the fact that he lost every high profile match he ever had.

    Pain resilience? Karl Gotch once went into business for himself, deliberately broke three of Lou Thesz's ribs and started a shoot fight... Thesz kept fighting and won via submission.

    Proof that Vader doesn't stay down? Sure, if you ignore all of those matches that he lost. If we restrict our sampling data to matches involving people's eyes getting knocked out, and ignore matches where Vader got pinned in fine minutes by Mark Henry, then he does come out looking pretty tough.

    Please, for fucks sake, don't bring up Vader and his fucking eye, it's embarrassing.

    ...


    Now, those are the only reasons why anyone could consider voting for Big Van Vader. I was expecting more of a challenge to tell the truth. Possibly once Irish has posted, though my suspicion is that he secretly agrees with me and will just get into this for kicks.

    My post isn't nearly enough of a "word fort" yet (whatever that means) so I might as well tack on some Lou Thesz promotion and random thoughts.

    Lou Thesz against Giants

    I just know that some fucker is going to show his face here and try to tell me that Lou Thesz has never faced an opponent like Vader before. My answer to this would be 'true - Don Leo Johnathon was quite a lot better'. The 340lb Mormon Giant was twice the athlete of Vader, had legitimate technical credentials, and defeated Andre the Giant (a man he beat senseless with the ring post). Lou Thesz pinned him repeatedly with little difficulty.

    Plenty of guys Thesz's size were able to slam and backdrop Vader, the difference is, most of those guys weren't able to put guys away with a simple backdrop. Thesz was.

    Vader is not your typical super-heavyweight

    Irish loves to tell me that the man had athletic and technical ability, something big men are usually lacking. The problem is, every step Vader takes towards making use of any of these talents puts him at a further disadvantage.
    You think he's going to exchange holds with Lou Thesz? You thing his slow and hopelessly telegraphed flying moves are ever going to connect?
    The only way Vader would ever have a chance against a man like Thesz is by backing into a corner and throwing right hands for the match duration, something he isn't likely to do.

    Vader is stupid

    The man constantly got himself disqualified. He constantly went for flying attacks that failed to connect and cost him matches. He had poor focus, was easily distracted and his sadistic tendencies that people love to rave about seldom helped him win matches.
    Don't take it too hard, most modern pro wrestlers are stupid. It's just that Thesz wasn't, and it's an advantage that has to be taken into account.

    Vader has shit knees

    That's right bitches! I saved the best for last.

    in 1978 Vader injured his knees playing football. In '92 he re-injured his knees in a match against the Great Muta. Vader's bad knees have been frequently exploited by wily opponents like Ric Flair to give them an advantage over him.

    Now, riddle me this. Which part of the body was targeted by Lou Thesz's trademark submission hold, the STF? Answer: Knees.
    Riddle me this again: in you are a 450lb man and your knees get taken out, what are you not going to be able to do? Answer: climb a ladder.
    Unlike other super-heavyweights Vader was never hard to get off his feat, so he's going to be frequently vulnerable to the hold.

    If Lou Thesz slaps on the STF, which he will, then the match is over.

    I'll keep playing, but for now I must cook and watch athletes inferior to Lou Thesz compete in TNA.
     
    #7
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  8. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    So it's IC25 vs Tastycles AND Gelgarin? This is an insane handicap match. JGlass, I hope you've got my back 'til the bitter end here. And at least THEY have Shattered Dreams on their side.

    Anyway, as usual Tasty and Gel came out swinging, which is the only way I want it. If they didn't bring their "A" games like this, it'd be too easy. It'd be like girls in college.

    I'll start with Tastycles.

    Loads of moves that use the ropes as a springboard have een done equally well off of a ladder. Shawn Michaels hit the splash. John Morrison has hit moonsaults. Al Vader has to do is stand on the 3rd rung with his hands on the top and push off into a sick Vader Bomb. The bounce of the ropes gives him more height to crush his opponent with. Considering how high off the ground the ladder is, the height is already present.

    This post makes no sense whatsoever. All you did was repackage Gelgarin's "Thesz is a better mat wrestler" argument into incoherent drivel. Yes, Thesz was wrestling for an hour when the moves were real. Vader was wrestling when the matches were more violent, and he didn't need to wrestle an hour because he was decimating people in well under 20 minutes.

    I know that when a larger man and a stronger man uses a weapon, he tends to swing it harder, and when he swings it at a smaller man, that smaller man will not feel right in the morning. If Evan Bourne comes at me with a chair, I'd be like "this might suck." If it's Sid Vicious approaching me with a chair, I'm shitting myself. Same deal with Thesz and Vader. Bigger and stronger men hit smller men with more force than the smaler man can hit the bigger man with.

    As I said, Vader has tools to beat Thesz that Harley Race did not have. Doesn't mean Race didn't learn something from wrestling Thesz. My high school wrestling coach was a 2-time county champion but never won states. He has coached 2 state champions. Those kids didn't say "I'm sorry, coach, but since you never won states, I don't think you're qualified to be in my corner in the tournament. Sorry." Suggesting that your 5-a-side team is as close to Barcelona as Harley Race is to Thesz is irresponsible.

    I clearly stated that in my opening post. Nice to see you've been reading.

    Wait, wait, wait, dah-fuck!? You're claiming that, because of speed, brutality in a gimmick match where there are no DQ's and no count-outs and weapons are permitted is IRRELEVANT? Your face is irrelevant, sir.

    Undertaker beat Jeff Hardy, Kane won Money in the Bank, Triple H beat The Rock. You know what, you need to leave the sandbox and let the big kids play. Let's move to Gelgarin before this half of the debate causes me to lose my edge.

    Indeed, you concede that Vader is bigger and stronger and I concede that Thesz is faster and more technically gifted. No conjecture about that. I just happen to feel that Vader is closer to Thesz in speed and agility than Thesz is to Vader in size and power.

    And you're dead off about over rating the SHW's. In fact, thanks to some of these efforts in the tournaments, the SHW's are only NOW starting to get the recognition they deserve. Again, you won't see me back guys like Bastion Booger, Earthquake, Tugboat, One Man Gang, or Haystacks Calhoun. I back guys like Vader, Andre, Bam Bam, Yokozuna, and more recently Paul Wight because they bring much more to the table than JUST size. Sadly folks like you and your forum life partner Tastycles try to poison the minds of fans by childishly calling SHW Pro Wrestling athletes fat. You're trying to write them off because of their weight, and it's not only desparate, it's also sophomoric.

    And don't vote against Vader just because he's "fat" or Thesz just because he's old-school.

    Agreed again. Thank you for conceding the obvious points.

    Perhaps ladder matches were a new idea to them, but they'd had some form of exposure to gimmick wrestling. Plus, Thesz wrestled at a time when high spots were massively rare, vs the guys like Hart and Benoit who wrestled when high spots were very common. So there was FAR Less of an adjustment for those guys than there would be for Thesz, who was one of the best in the world at keeping his feet planted on the ground.

    Held up Kane at Money in the Bank last year, long enough for him to win it. Also held up Mark Henry, and Vader is twice as agile as Henry is.

    Besides, my argument is not that Vader is lightning fast and will scale the ladder the way Maurice Jones Drew ran a 40-yard dash. My argument is that after the Mastadon brutalizes Thesz, he'll have plenty of time and will not, in any way, struggle to scale a simple ladder.

    Ok, here's another point. It's a lot harder for Thesz to get a 450-lb Vader OFF of the ladder than it is for Vader to get a 225-lb Thesz off the ladder. Vader's weight IS the ladder's stability. And again, I reference Kane and Henry. Or even the number of times BOTH Hardys AND Edge and Christian stood on a ladder at once for some high spot - that's 1000+ lbs and the ladders held up fine. Vader weighs 450 and you think the ladder is going to snap like a Spanish announce table? Are you serious?

    Um, dude...YOU brought it up.

    The Hansen eye match ended in a draw.

    No lie, I just read up on DOn Leo Johnathon, and I'm underwhelmed. He really doesn't have NEAR Vader's credentials.

    Dude, you really need to concede the fact that Vader would be a challenge the likes of which NOBODY had seen up to that point. Nobody did what Vader did in the ring at that size, which is why I continue to safely call him the greatest Superheavyweight in history.

    One of the worst and most flawed arguments I've ever heard. You're basically arguing that Vader is at disadvantage for getting himself DQ'ed when you're trying to get someone over him in...wait for it...a NO DQ MATCH!?

    You make it sound like Thesz is a rocket scientist and Vader is f'ing Kamala. I'll always give you the fact that Thesz is a smart man - a true thinking man's wrestler, but Vader wasn't just a savage. He was a smart, albeit brutal, SHW, and his manager is often considered one of the smartest guys in history.

    Gel, your knees argument is really the only one you can base this argument on, but I also remind you that Vader's knees didn't stop him from defeating Sting more often than not, or from beating Cactus Jack, or from beating The Undertaker. Thesz's back cost him his undisputed reign at the hands of Edouard Carpentier, and if you think Vader can't target a man's back, ask Joe Thurman.

    [YOUTUBE]Z-sVl95KI2c[/YOUTUBE]

    I'm sure this will go on all week, as the voting hasn't even started yet. But at least I have something to look forward to here - all the best to two guys I really do respect and the challenge they'll bring forth.
     
    #8
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  9. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    I respect Lou Thesz and everything he's done. You can't be a real wrestling fan and not be impressed by Thesz's legit skills, what he accomplished and what's meant to wrestling. Thesz dominated professional wrestling in North America when it was much closer to a "legit sport" than it has been for the past 30 years or so.

    I'd prefer to vote for Thesz but I just can't make myself do it here. If this was some sort of pure wrestling match or submission match, I'd have no problem voting Thesz but it's not. Thesz is someone with no experience in gimmick or hardcore wrestling matches, though it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to grasp the concept of climbing to the top of a ladder and taking something off a hook to win the match. But Vader is just so vicious and strong and a match with no actual rules just plays to all of his greatest attributes. Thesz has never had steel chairs slammed across his back and legs. He's never had his head rammed into steel ring posts or powerbombed across ladders or out on concrete floors.

    That's not to say that Thesz won't put up a valiant effort, I've little doubt that he'll get Vader off his feet and do some damage to the big man. In the end, however, I just see Vader as being too strong with Thesz being so far removed from the element that he knew.
     
    #9
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  10. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    The issues with this are twofold

    1) Both a splash and a moonsault are jumping moves, they jump away from the ladder. The Vader bomb is a pushing move. He vaults on the ropes and drops. He won't be able to vault, so he'll just fall straight downwards and twat his face, or he can try and push against a ladder he is standing unspported on, which is just going to push the ladder over... We'll come back to physics later, but if you can't see how this won't work, I can't help you.

    2) John Morrison and Shawn Michaels are two of the most agile wrestlers in the history of the WWF, Vader is not. Morrison has a standing leap of about five feet, which is why he was able to get away from the ladder far enough to flip over. Vader will not be able to do this. Michaels managed to hit a splash, a much simpler move, but again, his standing leap is going to be sufficiently more than Vader's.


    Late night, poor grammar, apologies. Anyway, the point is still pretty clear. Thesz was subjected to long, stiff matches on a nightly basis year in, year out, and he won them. It doesn't matter how long the match is, as long as you win. Thesz won more than 90% of his matches, the same cannot be said of Vader. For every 20 minute win he has, he has a 20 minute loss to someone else.

    Vader's three most high profile gimmick matches - against Flair, Hogan (twice) - in the United States have all resulted in losses inside 15 minutes. Ken Shamrock beat him in a gimmick match in less than 15 minutes. People will claim that "Vader wasn't in his prime". I'd argue that even at 70 years old Thesz wasn't losing inside 15 minutes to anyone, and that is because he is tougher.

    That's true, but weight plays absolutely no part in it whatsoever, as you tried to claim. Strength does. It's pretty simple, would you rather have the world's fattest man swinging a ladder at you, from his bedridden position or Arnold Schwarzenegger? I know who weighs more, but I also know who is stronger. By bringing their weights into it, you are trying to imply that Vader can hit Thesz twice as hard, because he weighs twice as much. I'm telling you that's not true, Thesz was incredibly strong for his size, Vader is not particularly strong for his.

    Hyperbolic, maybe, irresponsible, no. The fact is simple, your coach didn't help his mentees win by knowing how to beat somebody he lost to in the 1970s did he? No, he was about getting the best out of his students and teaching them to play to their strengths. Race could well do that, though I'd argue that Ed Lewis, a more decorated wrestler than Race and a more experienced mentor, would be able to do just as much, if not more, for his protegee Lou Thesz.

    Right, so the one characteristic of wrestlers with a historic precedent of doing well in this sort of match is conceded from the get go, good.


    I'm saying that the history of ladder matches proves that brutality doesn't give you a firm advantage, and then proved it with a list of victories that backed it up. You then posted a counter list, which didn't really help your argument because a) You had fewer examples, b) They were all turned against you, by me, over the following sentences.

    This is true. But, what you has here was brutality and size against agility and quickness, and the bigger man won. That looks like it supports you to the untrained eye, but it's actually a perfect example of how speed helps in this match, and brutality doesn't. A midcard tag team specialist was able to take one of the greatest wrestlers of all time to the absolute limit in a ladder match. Hardy, not a year later, was losing with his brother to Brock Lesnar alone. He was not booked strongly, and was decimated by bigger guys, but in a ladder match, he was almost equal to them. So, what you have proven here is that even a much inferior worker can gain a huge advantage in a ladder by being quicker and more agile. Thesz is not inferior to Vader at all, so the benefit of being quicker will be amplified even more.

    Again, this works in Thesz's favour. Firstly, in seven MITB matches, Kane's win is the only time that the most brutal guy has won, brutality means nothing. The other 6 winners may not have been the most agile in the match, but they are all athletic wrestlers, and only the highly athletic Swagger has topped 250lb. However, the real way Kane and all the others won, and most tellingly here, is by pacing themselves and waiting for the inevitable mistakes. We have already discussed about how Thesz is able to pace himself and Vader invariably races out of the stocks, for better or worse.

    Your best example, admittedly, but I never said brutal wrestlers never win, just that on balance, they don't have any notable advantage, which we've proven by example. Also, pretty sure Chyna won't be punching Thesz in the bollocks in this one.

    IC stopped looking at my arguments there, and tried some macho bravado. I'd like to think that anyone with half a brain cell can see that he is doing this because there's no argument. Thesz had a longer, better career and is one of the most important wrestlers ever. Vader's pretty quick for a big man, and wrestles with a stiff style. Everyone in the 1950s wrestled with a stiff style, and the qualifier "for a big man" does not help him on a ladder.

    To elaborate on that last point, IC has said that "it will be easier for Vader to take Thesz off the ladder than vice versa" or something to that effect. This is where the physics lesson comes in. What makes an object fall over is when its centre of mass is no longer over its base. The lower the centre of gravity, the less likely it is to fall over. If you have a man who is twice as heavy as his opponent on top of a ladder, the centre of mass will be almost twice as far off the ground, which would make the ladder twice as easy to topple. Probably why superheavyweights never ever win ladder matches.

    I'll let Gelgarin respond to the arguments against him, but I would like to address this:

    When somebody as nice as IC starts taking personal shots at people, it is because they have so little to argue about the topic, they have to maintain that there is some conspiracy, or they just purely attack the opponent to save face. Just something to think about.
     
    #10
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  11. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    The concept of a diving splash and the Vader Bomb are virtually the same: a big man lands flat on your torso, effectively crushing you. He doesn't have to push off the ladder, he can just climb to the top and free fall onto Thesz's body. No man is going to get up too quickly after a 450 pound monster lands on you from 15 feet in the air.

    Oh puh-lease. Different eras, different standards. In Thesz's era, the good guy more often than not won, because that's what people paid to see, the good guys win. Vader's era had story telling, sometimes the good guys won, sometimes they didn't.

    And let's not give Thesz the stiff match advantage. Vader tangoed with Stan Hansen, the stiffest of them all.

    Bologna. Thesz wrestled one match in his 70s, and it was a nostalgia match. Also, if you want to bring up matches that were past Vader's prime, can I bring up how Thesz lost to El Canek, a man that Vader beat?


    Yes it does. 450 pounds crashing down on you from 15 feet in the air is going to hurt a whole hell of a lot more than 200 pounds.

    At some point, being hit by a giant with a ladder is going to hurt no matter what. If a ladder shot from Arnold is a 10, than a ladder shot from Vader is a 7.5, but a 5 is enough to do enough damage to keep you down for a long time. Vader is strong enough to do enough damage with a ladder.

    Once again, it doesn't matter if Vader isn't the world's strongest man, he's strong enough. He has beaten both Ron Simmons and Davey Boy Smith, two tremendously strong men.


    I'm not sure there has ever been a mainstream wrestler has brutal as Vader, and I'm fairly positive there has never been a wrestler as brutal as Van Vader put into a ladder match. Sure, ladder matches have come to be the go to gimmick match for the agile guys, but when you're as big, mean, and ruthless as Vader, the ladder match starts working towards the more brutally vicious competitor. That man is Vader.

    First of all, we're talking about a ladder match specialist, a guy who helped make ladders into one of the WWE's favorite foreign objects. And in the end, the big guy still won. So now we have Thesz, who has no experience in this type of match, going up against a big man. Thesz doesn't have any of the advantages Hardy had, and all of the weaknesses.

    Hardy's advantage was not in agility or quickness, it was in experience and hardcore ability. Thesz has neither of those things when it comes to this match.

    How many other times has there been a man of Kane's stature in a MitB match? In the history of Money in the Bank there have been 7 men that are similar to Vader's size, power, and build in these matches. It's a matter of odds in this case, and when you're that out numbered you're bound to lose more than win. Also, the smaller guys have a tendency of teaming up on the big ones. Thesz won't have two or three other wrestlers to help him knock Vader off of the ladder.

    Money in the Bank is a bad example as, while it is a ladder match, it's also about everyone beating up everyone. Vader can focus his attack on Thesz rather than waste energy attacking everyone, and that is bad news for Lou.

    No, but Vader might stick Thesz in between the legs of the ladder and Vader Bomb him. That would be a pretty brutal way of immobilizing his foe.

    I'll give you longer career, I'll give you one of the most important wrestlers ever, but better is such a relative term. Vader had a great career for his time, Thesz had a great career for his time, the two aren't comparable.

    Stupid argument. Vader can knock over the ladder with Thesz on it, Thesz can knock over the ladder with Vader on it, so we're even. The difference is, Vader can stop Thesz from getting up there a lot quicker than Thesz could for Vader, and Vader would also have to exude a lot less energy.

    Furthermore, who says Vader is going to let Thesz have that opportunity? There are so many ways for Vader to totally incapacitate his opponent in this match it's hardly even fair.
     
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  12. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    1) How is it humanly possible to free fall backwards from a triangular structure and not hit your face on the next rung down? I'll give you a clue, it isn't.

    2) The key is in the words. "Diving" splash. The Vaderbomb is vaulted, you cannot do it off a ladder.

    3) Even if the above were possible, in the time it would take Vader to climb the ladder, Thesz would be on his feet, given his quickness at rising to his feet.

    Congratulations, you have just confirmed that you know as much about wrestling in Thesz's era as I know about the Bucharest tram network. Thesz wasn't some Hulk Hogan figure beating the nasty faces and giving the crowds someone to cheer, he was a man who would wrestle Buddy Rogers as an uber face one night, and then take on Antonino Rocca infront of an ethnic audience as a heel the next night. NWA champions all the way through to Terry Funk had to blur the lines of heel and face depending on the local contender they were facing. Thesz was no exception, in fact he was the best of all at the ambiguity, and that is why he was champion for so long. He beat the most dastardly heels of the day and the most popular faces. Perhaps you should actually learn something about Thesz before dismissing him?

    Stan Hansen is not stiffer than people who were legitimately trying to win when they weren't supposed to, a common occurence in wrestling in the early days. Of course, it never happened to Thesz because he was stiffer and better than the rest of them.

    Firstly, fuck knows where you're getting your facts from, but Lou Thesz wrestled a lot more than one match in the 1970s. He may have only wrestled one match in the 90s, but he wrestled about 30 matches per year throughout the 70s, having come back from retirement in 1973.

    Thesz lost to Canek, when he was 67 years old. Vader lost to Marvellous Mark Mero when he was 42, and to a crack addled Jake Roberts in less than five minutes at the age of 40. Furthermore, yes he beat Canek, but then lost to him soon afterwards.

    Way to take what I said completely out of context, I was talking about swinging the ladder. Anyway, Vader, as we've discussed, won't be able to hit his aerial moves without the aid of the ropes, so it remains irrelevant, even out of context.

    So is Lou Thesz, and he's likely to be able to get to it faster and is far more likely to avoid a ladder shot than Vader.

    I know it doesn't, but when strength is the only valid attribute he has over Thesz, it matters that he doesn't have it in an overwhelming abundance.

    Look at your argument broken down, and tell me you don't feel like an idiot:

    "Wrestlers who are brutal don't win ladder matches, but Vader is so brutal he will win".

    I'll make it simple for you:

    Big Show is bigger than Vader, and has a 100% losing record in ladder matches.
    Bad News Brown is meaner than Vader and has a 100% losing record in ladder matches
    Sid Vicious is as ruthless as Vader and has a 100% losing record in ladder matches.

    If meanness, ruthlessness and size give you an advantage, and the careers of these men suggest it does, it's negated in ladder matches.

    You're right, except for the fact he is stronger, more popular, more resiliant, tougher, more capable of adapting to his opponents, has had a better career, is pretty much all the words you use to describe wrestlers positively more than Jeff Hardy.

    Are you seriously trying to suggest that the experience of climbing a ladder is something The Undertaker is unfamiliar with? Or that The Undertaker, who is after all a former Hardcore Champion, is somehow not aware of the nuances of hitting someone with a chair? Oh no wait, he was having gimmick matches when Jeff Hardy was still at school.

    Well, the Raw MITB match had Mark Henry in it, and Big Show was in with Kane. Then in the one at Mania, Kane was in it, who is of a similar size to Kane. 2009 had Mark Henry, and Kane, a man who I think you would agree is of Kane's stature. 2007 and 8 saw a lack of big men, such as Big Daddy V, who had failed to qualify. 2006 had Lashley and 2005 had Kane, a man of similar size to Kane. There's not many big guys, admittedly, but that's because big guys are shit at ladder matches.

    Of the MITB's 7 winners, 5 of them are billed as being within 15lbs of Thesz. As for pushing people off the ladder, I don't want to keep going back to physics, but it's easier to push something over that's top heavy, especially if it is only on one side. For example, that's why the pyramids have the point at the top.

    Ok, let's use normal ladder matches. How many times has a man over 300lbs won a singles ladder match in a major company? The answer, is 2. If I changed the question to 305lbs, the answer would be 0. Of those 2, one is Dusty Rhodes, who shares nothing with Vader and who beat a total jobber. The other is the Big Boss Man, who was probably under 300 when he did it.

    If he gets him there, which he wouldn't.
    Yes they are. Thesz was unquestionably the biggest star and most dominant wrestler of his era. Vader was unquestionably not the biggest star and most dominant wrestler of his era. Pretty fucking simple.

    HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO EXUDE LESS ENERGY IF IT IS A HARDER TASK TO ACCOMPLISH. SERIOUSLY, PHYSICS.

    Except Vader almost never totally incapacitated anyone of note. Thesz beat all comers, easily, and Big Van Vader would be no exception.
     
    #12
  13. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    Bravo for exploding forum taking out an entire Gelgarin post.

    So here we have Irish, a perfectly competent poster who unfortunately seems distracted by the visual of Tasty taking me roughly from behind - lining up alongside JG, a man lacking the first clue what he is talking about and serving only to undermine his own argument. At least Shattered Dreams gets bored after five minutes.

    As a second aside, I honestly can't believe that either of you are still arguing the point with Tasty regarding physics, this is stuff that should have been covered in high-school. You cannot propel yourself straight down from the top of a triangle, and a 450lb fat man is going to be far, far easier to displace from a ladder. This stuff isn't hard.

    Tasty has already done a fine job is sweeping JG under the metaphorical carpet, but I'd just like to add my support to the statement that JG is displaying wholesale ignorance whenever he tries to talk about Lou Thesz. It's actually worse than reading Xfear pontificate on Verne Gagne. Then again, I scrolled to the start of this debate and noticed that you invoked the eyeball argument, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

    Now, to matters of real importance, Irish.
    You skipped over a few of my arguments in lieu of trying to be childishly mean to Tastycles (a man who fought in a war for the likes of you). I'd hate to do the same to you so although it pains me to do it, I'll bust out one of those old school point by point breakdowns.

    Sophomoric? No, not really. Put down the thesaurus and pick up an introduction to physics, it'll serve you better in this debate.
    Now, I know this is going to hurt your world view Irish, but I think you're old enough to be told.

    Big Van Vader was fat.

    I'm sorry, I know it was hard to hear, but it's true. It's not immaturity on my part, it's not a week attempt to discredit his ability, it's a simple truth. Big Van Vader was fat.
    On the BM index he would register as morbidly obese, and even allowing for the fact that the BM index is a pile of shit, he would still qualify as highly overweight on any reasonable scale.
    This is not to take away from his ability and his accomplishments such as they were. I can accept the mans talent whilst not denying the self evident truth. The man was fat.

    Being fat and heavy makes it harder for you to climb a ladder. That's why you don't see many fat firemen. It makes it much easier for you to be displaced from a ladder (PHYSICS) and would likely result in you suffering more from falling off a ladder.
    Simple.

    Nobody is voting against Vader just because he's fat. We're voting against him because he's completely inferior as a professional wrester. The fact that he's a fat man competing in a contest that heavily disadvantages fat men is just one of the many reasons we have.

    Exposer to gimmick wrestling? So we're falling back on the assertion that hitting someone with a chair is a precise art that needs to be studied. I have a folding chair in my study, just for an experiment I picked it up, took it outside, identified a young Arabic gentleman and cracked him across the head with it. It was easy.

    I'm not sure what Thesz being one of the best in the world at keeping his feet planted on the ground is supposed to mean. I'll concede that he didn't make a habit of missing flying moves like Vader did, but he spent plenty of time in the air and on the mat.

    So instead of the stipulation favoring Vader, now the stipulation is irrelevant and can be ignored until Lou Thesz has been incapacitated. That's fine to me since there is absolutely no way in hell that Vader, a man who lost matches to mediocre opponents on a regular basis, is going to destroy Lou Thesz, a man who went undefeated against the entire planet for year after year.
    Once you get beyond the right hook then Lou Thesz (a southpaw) is superior in in every relevant aspect of this contest, and would have Vader down clutching his knee long before the big man come close to incapacitating him.

    No, I think it's going to fall down. A 450lb mass distorting the center of gravity will make it unstable. Stephen Hawking agrees with me.

    I was trying to be preemptive, but as a matter of fact that JG guy had already brought it up.

    Unlike the matches against Antonio Inoki, Ken Shamrock, Kane, Mark Henry, Otto Wanz, Riki Choshu, El Canek, Singh, Tatsumi Fujinami, Scott Norton, Rambo, Tony Halme, Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Nobuhiko Takada, Randy Savage, Yokozuna, Jake Robberts, Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Sid Vicious, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Undertaker, Justin Bradshaw, Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, Yoshihiro Takayama, Jun Akiyama and Shinya Hashimoto.

    If the man is going to get squashed by Ken Shamrock, Mark Henry and and crack addled Jake Roberts then he is not going to stand much of a chance against Lou Thesz.

    Ahh, I see your evil plan at last. If you can get everyone in this tournament to vote based on five minutes reading then you've got a decent shot. DLJ was as strong as Vader, he was able to lift Andre the Giant. He was faster than Vader (Vader could hit an ugly moonsault from the top rope, DLJ could hit one standing then nip up immediately after. He was also a highly skilled martial artist and, as I have said before, could be incredibly brutal (as anyone who reads what he did the Andre can testify). He never put his eye back in which I guess means he lacks Magical Vader Power but he's one of the most talented super heavyweights in wrestling history and he presented no challenge to Lou Thesz.

    No I'm not arguing that Vader will get himself disqualified. I'm arguing that he is stupid. He was stupid enough to cost himself plenty of matches he was in control of. He was stupid enough to constantly go for slow, telegraphed high flying moves that could and would cost him matches. He was outsmarted by opponents like Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels and lost matches because of it.

    One: in matches involving both Vader and Sting, Vader has won four and lost five. If you limit it to singles matches then Vader has won two and lost three. Check your facts.

    As for Edouard Carpentier? That's all you got? One loss, compared to the countless number of opponents who have easily had Vader's number. Mark Henry defeated him in five minutes. Ken Shamrock made him tap for mercy in four (Vader's crappy legs again). Jake Roberts needed approximatively three to claim victory. Thesz was lasting longer than that against better opponents when he was a 74 year old with a fake hip.

    Try harder.
     
    #13
  14. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    I have loads of respect and admiration for Lou Thesz. If this were any sort of match in which the object was to pin your opponent, or make him submit to a hold, I would likely think long and hard about voting for Thesz. However, a Ladder match is not about pinning or submitting ones opponent. It is about incapacitating your opponent (long enough to climb and retrieve a Mysterious Winning Object), and as such Lou Thesz has a pretty much no chance in this encounter.

    Earlier this morning, I decided to youtube a bunch of Lou Thesz matches to confirm whom I was voting for, and one thing struck me during my viewing. Thesz won a good amount of his matches by pinning a man with his (now called) Lou Thesz Press. Most of the pins with this hold were leverage pins, in which the downed opponent is squirming to escape the pin but unable to do so before the count of 3. Obviously such a predicament does not help Thesz in this situation, as Vader would be back to his feet before Thesz would even get to the ladder to start climbing. It's great technique for a pinning match, but since a Ladder Match is a brawl without pins, it's useless here.

    While this may have been a bit common, it wasn't the only technique Thesz used to win matches. He also won matches by submitting them (some of which were with such "damaging" (nowadays) holds as a HAMMERLOCK), and I saw him actually incapacitate a guy for a few seconds with a "dreaded" (now) BACK SUPLEX.

    Lets face it, Wrestling has evolved greatly since the days of Lou Thesz. What was innovative and a finishing maneuver during Thesz's heyday is now considered a rest hold or a basic throw/slam, in which the opponent isn't badly damaged.

    Now lets look at (courtesy of Wikipedia) Thesz's primary maneuvers.

    Finishing moves (again, according to Wikipedia, the only source
    • Bridging belly to back suplex
      • I'll give Thesz the benefit of the doubt, and say he'd be able to hit the back suplex. It's a back fucking suplex, he's likely been hit with it countless times in his career. He'll get up quick enough and stop Thesz's ascent up the ladder.
    • STF
      • The STF, IF Thesz can execute it, would hurt Vader. However, this isn't a submission match, and Vader would be able to get his bearings and stop Thesz's ascent up the ladder.
    Signature moves
    • Backbreaker submission
      • I believe this is an overhead style backbreaker. If that's the case, no way in hell can Thesz even try it. If it's the old drop a guy on your knee and bend the guy, maybe, but again it won't keep Vader down.
    • Belly to back waist-lock suplex
      • This goes hand in hand with the other suplex. However, I doubt he'd be able to get the waist lock to execute it.
    • Double wrist-lock
      • it's a submission then, it's probably just a rest hold now. Vaders back pretty quick.
    • Headlock
      • Do I even need to explain how useless a headlock is nowadays?
    • Lou Thesz Press
      • As explained earlier, this move is pretty much a leverage pin, and Vader could very easily beat Thesz to his feet after it. Not to mention I don't think it'd be easy for Thesz to knock Vader down by going high on him. Vader could easily catch Thesz and slam him with authority
    • Powerbomb
      • Thesz wouldn't be able to do it to the 450 pound Mastadon.
    Now lets look at a youtube video of the "Top Ten Move of Lou Thesz"
    [YOUTUBE]R1-prUMGzps[/YOUTUBE]
    Some of the moves are repeats from the list, the others are again, more holds that won't help Thesz win a Ladder Match.

    So not only are the moves that Thesz do pretty routine nowadays (and in Vaders prime), some of them (Powerbomb) Vader does with MUCH more impact.

    Thesz is a bigger legend. Thesz is the better mat wrestler. Thesz however, doesn't stand a chance in an incapacitating fight against Vader.

    Vader wins this match rather handily. Vader ultimately hits a Vader Bomb onto Thesz on the ladder, splash (variant on a Vader Bomb) off the ladder, or powerbomb onto the ladder. Then Vader takes his sweet time climbing the ladder carefully (as to make sure it doesn't buckle under his weight), and grabs the mysterious winning object above the ring, all while Thesz is still out cold on the mat.
     
    #14
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  15. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    This is Thesz, due to one simple fact. Vader won't be able to climb a ladder. He is too big and fat to physically do it, according to my calculations. Eventually he'll just have to give up, allowing Thesz to win. Simple as that.

    Also, it's kind of surprising how much love Vader gets on here in comparison to his actualy success, which wasn't really that much.
     
    #15
  16. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Right, so a move that stops you being able to walk won't help Thesz in a ladder match? You need to spend less time on wikipedia and more time in Common Sense 101. I literally don't need to say anything else.
     
    #16
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  17. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    since not a single move listed is a leg submission, and none of them would prevent walking, your argument is pretty shit, and I'm not the one who needs Common Sense classes, rather you are. Not to mention the fact that Thesz wouldn't even be able to apply a lot of his holds on the 450 pounder.

    You can say whatever you want. Logic dictates that a hammerlock, or a headlock is not as dangerous in a Ladder Match as a Splash off an elevated surface (ropes, ladder, whatever), yet alone a splash by a 40 pounder.

    Vader will ultimately powerbomb Thesz the same way he powerbombs everyone else (a force Thesz has NEVER felt before in his entire career), then puts Thesz on the ladder, and Vader Bombs him off the 2nd rope onto the ladder, then nonchalantly sets up the ladder, climbs, and wins the match. Thesz then gets stretchered out of the arena, although I wouldn't be surprised if Vader gave him 1 more Powerbomb/Vaderbomb post-match because he can.

    Ironic that a move Thesz started would lead to his downfall, but Vader does it a thousand times better.
     
    #17
  18. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    Never said it was. I said a diving splash, not a slingshot splash, which is what the Vaderbomb is.

    Here is a diving splash elegantly performed by Slam Master J.

    [YOUTUBE]7_mIs5TEVag[/YOUTUBE]
    Well then, it's a good thing I said that he would be performing a diving splash and not a Vaderbomb. Now if you're saying Vader couldn't perform a diving splash, I'd have to ask you to really question that validity of that statement. Vader could perform a moonsault, I don't think he'd have any troubles performing a diving splash.

    If we give Thesz all of his attributes, can we give Vader a few of his? Let's take, for instance, his ability to totally annihilate an opponent. The way you talk about this match you make it sound like Vader would never be able to get the upper hand on Thesz, but we all know that's not how wrestling matches work. Vader will eventually get his hands on Thesz, and when that happens, Thesz is going to be put down for a while... a long while. I foresee Vader powerbombing him in the corner, hitting the Vaderbomb, and then climbing the ladder and hitting a splash. Thesz isn't going to be so quick to get up to his feet after a combination of powerful moves from Vader. Stronger men have suffered from Vader's wrath, and while there's no denying Thesz would be one of Vader's toughest opponents, I don't see him being able to withstand the might of The Mastadon.

    Who's dismissing him? Just because I think Vader would beat him doesn't mean I don't respect the man's abilities.

    Making assumptions now, are we? I'd say Stan Hansen is pretty fucking stiff, and the fact that he was working stiff while not trying to win when he wasn't supposed to almost says more about Vader.

    And why are we talking about stiffness in a contest about fake wrestling? I suppose if you put a lot of stock in stiffness that's cool, but I don't.

    What's the point?
    I was making a point through exaggeration. You brought up matches past Vader's prime, so I brought up a match past Thesz's prime. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.

    Or he can and will. And as for swinging the ladder...

    I wouldn't give Thesz the same strength rating that Vader has. Vader isn't ridiculous levels of strong, but he's still a 450 pound beast that could throw down with the biggest and best. Like IC said earlier, real wrestling is divided up into weight classes for a reason, every pound makes a considerable amount of difference.

    Still, a ladder shot is a ladder shot, and it's going to do a number on whoever gets hit first, but a monster like Vader will recover from a (relatively lighter) ladder shot than Vader would from Thesz. Also, ladder shots are rarely what wins a person a ladder match. In fact, I can't recall one ladder match where a ladder shot kept a competitor down long enough for the other guy to ascend the ladder and get the win.

    Now I wouldn't say that. Intangibles man, intangibles. Vader is meaner, has a bigger legacy of brutality, is more durable, and has experience in gimmick matches.

    Or maybe go back and read what I said and tell me it doesn't make you feel like an ass. I never said wrestlers who are brutal don't win ladder matches, I never said anything close to that. I said I didn't think there was ever a wrestler AS brutal as Vader in a wrestling match ever, mostly because Vader is one of the most brutal guys to ever step foot in the ring. There are plenty of brutal wrestlers who have won ladder matches, including Edge, Triple H, The Undertaker, Benoit, and Abyss are all wrestlers I consider to be brutal that have also won ladder matches. While some of them are more talented than Vader, few of them are as ruthless as Vader.

    I'm ignoring the part where you "make it simple for me," because instead of sounding smart it just makes you look like an asshole.

    As noted in the above list of wrestlers to have won a ladder match, clearly it doesn't prohibit one from being able to win.

    But Vader is still stronger and more experienced in this type of match.

    No, I'm saying Jeff Hardy was always billed as a hardcore expert, and that's where his advantage lays. You have a wonderful gift of putting words in other people's mouths, even if they are less than palatable.

    But we have seen that they can win. And let's not pretend Thesz fits the archetype of ladder match performers either. He's admittedly closer to what the WWE commonly puts in ladder matches these days, but he ain't exactly Kofi Kingston, John Morrison, or Shelton Benjamin.

    What if they're both on the ladder, then who gets the advantage? Vader.

    Also, let's not pretend the ladder will be as wobbly as an upside down pyramid. Ladders are built to be sturdy, it's not like Thesz is going to be able to take a yawn and a stretch while pushing over the ladder with one hand. It's a ladder with a 450 pound man on the top, driving the ladder into the ground. It's still going to be one hell of a bitch to tip that bad boy over.


    Depends on what Taker was being billed at when he beat Jeff Hardy.

    Also, how many guy close to Vader's size and shape have been in ladder matches? The only one I can think of is Bam Bam Bigelow, and he fought to a no-contest. Abyss would the second closest, and he's won a few times.

    And you're assuming that there is a correlation between weight and winning ability, the correlation being the heavier you are, the less likely you are of winning. How do you know it's not a bell curve? How do you know that eventually it gets to a point where the heavier man has an advantage of being harder to knock down off the ladder?

    No, because Vader has never man handled an opponent in such a way :rolleyes:

    In that case, Thesz vs. Hogan every year please with John Cena and Stone Cold as runners up.

    You know, the more I'm thinking about this argument, the more I'm thinking it's bull. Just by intuition, I have a feeling I'd have a lot more trouble if I sat a 400 pound guy at the top of the ladder and tried to push it over than I would if I sat a 200 pound guy up there. Until you show me the equation that proves that it would be easier to knock down Vader on a ladder, I'm going to go on believing you're talking out your ass. I've never been much of a math or science guy, but I do know a thing or two about moving heavy shit, and stuff is a lot heavier when you have a 400 pounds pushing down on it when compared to 200.


    How many ladder matches have we seen won by a submission maneuver being used to incapacitate the opponent? Not too many.
     
    #18
  19. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    How the fuck is a stopover toe hold not a leg submission?

    The rest of your argument is stupid incidentally. Your clearly one of those people who would vote against Hogan because his finisher was a leg drop. On the same topic, would you mind explaining to me exactly how a greco-roman backdrop is less impactful than a power bomb?
     
    #19
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  20. Joe's Gonna Kill You

    Joe's Gonna Kill You The Hunt is On

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    Going into this match I was going to vote for Vader but after reading the debates from Tasty and Gelgarin they swayed me into voting for Thez for all of the reasons that they have already stated. I have no doubt that this match will be brutal but I think Thez will use his Technical skills to work on Vader's Legs making it Very Difficult for him to Climb a Ladder.
     
    #20
  21. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    You mean a Stepover Toehold FACELOCK? Yeah, I'd say it's just as much a head/face submission then a leg submission. When you see anyone get put in an STF, what do they hold in pain as soon as they get out of it? Not the leg, the HEAD/FACE.

    You mean logical, and not talking out my ass because Lou Thesz is ancient (and thus from an entirely mat-based era where no one was really ever incapacitated).

    No, I would vote against Hogan if all he ever did was non-impactful offense in a match where the object is to be IMPACTFUL enough to incapacitate an opponent long enough to climb a ladder and retrieve an object.

    And I guess you never saw my sig then...

    Force. With the Greco-Roman Backdrop you drop to the ground, and the guy is not lifted far off the gound. With a powerbomb, you lift the guy pretty much over your head, then SLAM him to the ground with excessive force, with the guy landing on his back and then causing an extreme whiplash effect on the neck/head. I mean that's pretty obvious, I guess you don't know shit about science. Here's some homework; a little experiment if you will. Take a hardcover book (a textbook if you have any) and drop it on the ground (landing it flat on the back of the book). Then take said book and throw it to the same ground with as much force as possible (again, making it land flat on the ground). the 2nd time it will make a MUCH louder sound, and will be MUCH more impactful.
     
    #21
  22. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    can you show me any examples of where technical skills won Ladder matches? No you can't, because it's never happened. People win Ladder Matches by using either a hardcore ability, INSANE agility (to go with some hardcore), brute strength, or a combination of any of those. Lou Thesz has a disadvantage in hardcore ability, and in brute strength, and the agility, while in his favor, isn't as much a 1 way thing as you thing. Vader was quite agile for his size (which made him even more menacing).
     
    #22
  23. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    Christ alive, after four years here I finally hit the 300 post mark and it's to deal with you? Where the hell is Irish when you need him.

    And just like that, six second in, we have conclusive proof that you don't have the first fucking clue what you are talking about. You've evidently watched two or three Thesz videos on youtube and are now trying to pass yourself off someone with a legitimate opinion.

    In his prime Lou Thesz very rarely applied the facelock to compliment the toehold. He did it in his later years when wrestling became somewhat showier, although for the most part I'd say it was Chono who popularized the hold looking like that, but for those four and a half years he was defeating everyone on the planet he was submitting them with a leg submission.

    Vader is a man with famously bad legs, who tapped out to career nobodies like Ken Shamrock in a matter of minutes.

    Lou Thesz was the greatest wrester on the planet, who fought his fair share of super-heavyweights and was never once completely incapacitated as you people seem to be suggesting he would be here.

    Really, tell that the Buddy Rogers.

    Lou Thesz's offence was "impactful" enough to pin legends of the industry and some of the most famously resilient names in wrestling history. Names like Antonio Inoki, Buddy Rogers, Bruno Sammartino and Terry Funk; and that's with me confining myself to names that somebody with no knowledge of the era is likely to recognize.

    Really, because if you actually watch footage of Vader powerbombing people, more often that not he elevated them over his head, then just lets gravity do the rest of the work. He doesn't drop with them, and as such even the stiffest application of the move is limited to Vader's arm strength.

    Thesz's backdrop in contrast is entirely one motion, and as such all the momentum from the lift is transfered into the impact. Height has nothing the do with the moves power, gravity is gravity and another six inches is not going to have a major impact. What counts is the respective forces involved, and I'd wager that Lou Thesz applies a greater force with his entire body than Vader can with his upper arms.

    Of course all of this is entirely elementary. Thesz's backdrop did pin people. It pinned everyone in his era and a significant number of names from eras to come. It was an highly effective finishing move and augmented one of the most effective offences of all time. How do i know this? Because Lou Thesz won all his matches, he was actually dominant in a way that Big Van Vader never could be.

    Now, since you want to try your hand at condescention, I have a piece of homework for you as well.

    Take a hardcover book, any hardcover book.
    Sit down.
    Read it.

    It'll help you no end.
     
    #23
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  24. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    Yeah, and you're yet to deal with me, so keep trying. Better yet, just give up, since you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


    And you here AGAIN bring up something that you act like it's nothing, but it's the main reason Vader wins. Wrestling has VASTLY changed since the days of Lou Thesz. What he did back in his prime was what we now think of as generic chain wrestling and rest holds. If he goes into this match with his offense, Vader would laugh it off, and beat the ever living fuck out of him (something, by the way, that Vader does better them most everybody in the business).

    well past his prime at that point, and again, he can tap out all he wants, but it won't mean a damn thing. If it were a submission match, I'd vote Thesz (as I said). Since Thesz is shit at incapacitating his opponent, which is how you win ladder matches, Vader wins here.

    He has NEVER fought someone as powerful as Vader. Super-heavyweights yes, but NO ONE with the combination of size, strength, speed, agility, and dominance of Vader. You brought up Don Leo Johnathon. Well good for him, he has nowhere NEAR the size of Vader. And you bring up Andre. He has nowhere NEAR the speed, agility, or striking ability of Vader.

    You said it right there. PIN. This match has no pinning involved. Who cares who he pins. Pinning has nothing to do with impact. And who cares if he pinned those guys. How many of them did he leave laying on the mat? None. He'll win a match, and the opponent will get up a second later accepting defeat. Congrats, if Thesz pins Vader here, and stands up, then Vader will get up and beat the ever living fuck out of him some more.


    1. Actually, it's more of overall strength, not just arm strength.
    2. he does usually throw them, not drop them.


    Actually, Gravity, combined with the force from throwing, is what makes Vaders throw more powerful.

    And if height doesn't make any difference, then do the following for me. Jump off of the roof of your house. Then jump off of a 10 story building. Report back to me and tell me if height of a fall means anything.

    Yes, he pinned people. Good thing for Vader this match (again) ISN'T ABOUT PINNING. And he won't be able to backdrop Vader. Even if he can, he won't get all of it, and it won't be enough to INCAPACITATE Vader.

    Actually, reading has helped me realize the logic that power beats generic plain old boring offense that Vader has seen 90000 times in his career, even if it's executed better then anyone else ever executed it. It's still a fucking hammerlock, and a headlock, and a back suplex.

    Sadly, you, oh King of the Ancient Wrestling Times, doesn't realize that MODERN guys can do EVERYTHING old guys do, and 1000 TIMES MORE. Too bad for Thesz that this match isn't a grappling contest, or a who can do the most bland boring generic offense contest. If that was the case, then he'd win hands down. It's not. The match is about who can do the most damage (so that they can keep a guy down long enough to climb and win), and there are very few in the entire world that can do more damage then Vader, and Lou Thesz isn't one of them.

    You claim I know nothing about the old guys, well, sir, I claim you know nothing about modern guys. You can be stuck in the 40's and 50's, while I'm here in more modern times talking about modern wrestling in a MODERN contest.
     
    #24
  25. Megatron

    Megatron Justin Verlander > You

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    Thesz would be using the STF long enough to make sure that Vader can't get to his feet. It's one of his finishers for god sakes. It's not like he'd lock it in, then by the time he set up the ladder, Vader would get to his feet (especially with his history of bad knees). Vader isn't superman.

    Thesz is one of the best technicans ever, and wouldn't be stupid enough to try and bring ladders into the match until he had to. He'd wear Vader down by taking out his knees before applying teh STF long enough where Vader couldn't even stand. The STF could incapacitate him long enough where Thesz could walk up and get the object at the top.

    Just because they're used as generic moves now doesn't mean Thesz couldn't use them more effectively.
     
    #25

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