Books

[Harthan]

I know you're not a giant lot of uneducated ruffians. Only some of you.

Maybe better put in the GSD, but I remember when we didn't have a fancy GSD, and we got along just fine.

Talk about shit you're reading, shit you've read, shit you want to read. Things you've heard about. The Bible. Your local library. 50 Shades of Grey. Whatever catches your fancy.

I'm in the middle of the Kingkiller Chronicles right now, and it's arguably one of the best series I've ever read. Rothfuss has a brilliant command over the language. He's got his quirks - an unfortunate habit to cop out on description that I'm not sure is his own laziness/inability or a trait of an unreliable narrator and a terrible disposition to making up words, one of the worst fantasy tropes - but he's overall fantastic. The plot is every bit the absolutely engrossing, page turning, "one more chapter" kind of thing you want out of the best fantasy, but damn if it isn't beautiful along the way. As briefly mentioned as well, it's a positive study into how to make an unreliable narrator absolutely amazing.

 

[Gelgarin]

Midnight's children is giving me a look from my bedside table. I've never got on well with magic realism, but not having read any Rushdie is beginning to get embarrassing, so I'll give it a whirl soon enough.

Other books I've read recently include Atonement for the umpteenth time, just because I found a copy kicking around the library where I was studying and it's my favorite book. Also read Wolf Hall which was interesting if unremarkable and To Kill a Mockingbird, which was another right of passage text that I was getting ashamed of not having touched. That turned out to be a fantastic read.

To give something a bit more relevant; I read through the Game of Thrones novels comparatively recently. They're not particularly good.

 

[Harthan]

What do you object to in the Game of Thrones books, Gelg?

Surprised it took you this long to read Mockingbird. Is it not a staple school text across the pond? I don't think anyone in the States makes it out of grade school without having a go at it.

 

[Барбоса]

My list of books I have not read is pretty embarrassing. Name a classic or any era or genre - I won't have read it.

Far more of a non-fiction reader. From Roman and Greek primary sources to almost anything on military history. Currently on a history of Finland - a very interesting country. I do read some fiction but only Star Wars and now GoT.

As for the quality of GoT, it would be my view that Martin is hardly a ground-breaker or even great user of literary style and techniques such as character development (very few of his characters go through any kind of development arc). He is a story-teller in perhaps the simplest of terms - it just so happens that he has a very good story to tell and has presented it in such a way as to make it more accessible to others.

 

[Wicked Valentine]

I need to say now that if someone tries to pick up an actual discussion about 50 Shades of Gray I will stab you in the jugular with a rusty knife and beat you with my shiny wooden bat until you die.

With that off my chest, I quite enjoy A Song of Ice and Fire series. I'm on the 2nd book right now and it is quite enjoyable and magnificently heart wrenching

 

[Gelgarin]

What do you object to in the Game of Thrones books, Gelg?

Surprised it took you this long to read Mockingbird. Is it not a staple school text across the pond? I don't think anyone in the States makes it out of grade school without having a go at it.

I don't have a massive objection; I just don't think they're particularly good. I can't really explain why without massive spoilers, which I have a rule against. I will be vague and non-descriptive, but there's your warning.

Spoiler

I think the bulk of my objection from book 2 onward is that you're spending an easy majority of the narrative with characters who don't advance the plot. The best example is Arya, who was one of my favorite characters from book one, but since witnessing he dad's head come off she has performed not one action of significance to the story. All she has done if bounce around the custody of close to a dozen different groups as a lazy narrative device, running away and then instantly getting sucking into a different group whenever necessary. For five books she hasn't done anything except serve as a pair of eyes and an occasional plot mcguffin. That's not good storytelling.

Arya is the worst culprit of this, but she's far from the only one. Bran, Dany, Sansa, Sam and even Tyrion in the later books are much the same, simply bouncing from location to location not advancing the story. Martin is very visibly more interested in exploring his world than exploring his characters. The assumption is that they'll all have a role to play at the close, but nine books is too long to spend with a character waiting for them to do something, especially when quite a few of the characters are decidedly one dimensional. Here; allow me to summarize Brandon Stark's character as witnessed across half a dozen novels. He likes stories and is unhappy that he's got no legs. That's it. If you can tell me anything more about Bran's character then I'll be supremely impressed. That's not even touching on the number of characters who are given almost no personality at all. The Dany subplot is fine because she's a rounded enough character to keep it interesting, but many of the other narrative lines are simply not worth their existence.

I'm also not wild about the juvenile and at times borderline misogynistic tone that the novel takes at times. I'll take shit for bringing up feminism on the internet, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Martin seems to positively delight in bringing references to violent rape into the narrative; never in any way that actually effects the plot or looks at it as a serious issue, just every few chapters he's keen to remind the reader that there's a lot a raping gone on around the place. There's a frankly hilarious disparity between the treatment of same sex relationships. Any gay relationships in the narrative are incredibly understated, to the point where you wouldn't even notice them unless you were looking, in spite of the fact that they're a major driving force behind some of the plot (I actually really like that, there isn't all that much subtlety in the books). In contrast Martin is keen to offer a great deal of detail to the completely unnecessary and irreverent lesbian sex scenes he throws the reader's way from time to time. Neither of these things is a big deal in of themselves, but I just use them to highlight a trend that I don't appreciate. This isn't mature writing, it's a way of making your writing look mature to an audience of teenage boys.

And then there's the story itself; most of which doesn't really go anywhere. At the end of book 1 Dany was planning to cross the narrow sea and reclaim her kingdom. Book 7 has her still planning to cross the narrow sea and reclaim her kingdom. Everything else not involving John Snow has a tendency to simply flounder around waiting for the main conflict of the series to begin. It's interesting up to a point, but after seven books I'm looking for a little more direction in my narrative.

Oh, and on a more minor note, the revelation that one of the Targarians has been secretly alive this whole time is one of the stupidest plot twists I've ever witnessed in a text.

To be clear, I didn't dislike the books. They were readable enough that I kept going to the end, and I'll probably carry on and read the rest of Martin ever makes them happen. I just don't think that they're particularly good.

 

[Miko]

Just finished Nation by Terry Pratchett for the third time, fun read, kinda sad, more-so third time round than it was first I think

 

[Unsold Bacon]

I'm high into sports autobiographys and one book that I found to be very good was Michael Oher's I Beat the Odds: From Homelessness, to The Blind Side, and Beyond. I found the book be the inspiring and the things he went through are absolutely disturbing. I can't help but think of an image of his many siblings and him walking alone with tattered up close on the highway. I loved that book.

I also want to read Game Of Thrones (Is this any good?, keep in my mind I've never seen the series) and Michael Vick autobiography coming out in September.

 

[Gelgarin]

I really liked Nation. Probably the last good Pratchett novel.

 

[Miko]

I really liked Nation. Probably the last good Pratchett novel.

I didnt know he'd released any since, not very good?

I am just going through that phase of re-reading through all my old Terry Pratchett books, at two days per book its quick work but with Pratchett at least there is always something new to notice in them. Regretting the third read of Nation though.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Because I am a big fan of autobiographies, right now I have Simon Pegg's Nerd Do Well and Jericho's second book on my reading list.

After I finish those I'm not sure where I will head, probably take a look at some of those that pop up in here.

 

[Alex]

Currently on American Pyscho. Its even more messed up than the book, the descriptions are more graphic than the film showed. Also I find it funny that people I know going on about 50 Shades Of Gray as I've read more graphic stuff in this book and it came out about 20 years ago

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I don't have a massive objection; I just don't think they're particularly good. I can't really explain why without massive spoilers, which I have a rule against. I will be vague and non-descriptive, but there's your warning.

Spoiler

I think the bulk of my objection from book 2 onward is that you're spending an easy majority of the narrative with characters who don't advance the plot. The best example is Arya, who was one of my favorite characters from book one, but since witnessing he dad's head come off she has performed not one action of significance to the story. All she has done if bounce around the custody of close to a dozen different groups as a lazy narrative device, running away and then instantly getting sucking into a different group whenever necessary. For five books she hasn't done anything except serve as a pair of eyes and an occasional plot mcguffin. That's not good storytelling.

Arya is the worst culprit of this, but she's far from the only one. Bran, Dany, Sansa, Sam and even Tyrion in the later books are much the same, simply bouncing from location to location not advancing the story. Martin is very visibly more interested in exploring his world than exploring his characters. The assumption is that they'll all have a role to play at the close, but nine books is too long to spend with a character waiting for them to do something, especially when quite a few of the characters are decidedly one dimensional. Here; allow me to summarize Brandon Stark's character as witnessed across half a dozen novels. He likes stories and is unhappy that he's got no legs. That's it. If you can tell me anything more about Bran's character then I'll be supremely impressed. That's not even touching on the number of characters who are given almost no personality at all. The Dany subplot is fine because she's a rounded enough character to keep it interesting, but many of the other narrative lines are simply not worth their existence.

I'm also not wild about the juvenile and at times borderline misogynistic tone that the novel takes at times. I'll take shit for bringing up feminism on the internet, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Martin seems to positively delight in bringing references to violent rape into the narrative; never in any way that actually effects the plot or looks at it as a serious issue, just every few chapters he's keen to remind the reader that there's a lot a raping gone on around the place. There's a frankly hilarious disparity between the treatment of same sex relationships. Any gay relationships in the narrative are incredibly understated, to the point where you wouldn't even notice them unless you were looking, in spite of the fact that they're a major driving force behind some of the plot (I actually really like that, there isn't all that much subtlety in the books). In contrast Martin is keen to offer a great deal of detail to the completely unnecessary and irreverent lesbian sex scenes he throws the reader's way from time to time. Neither of these things is a big deal in of themselves, but I just use them to highlight a trend that I don't appreciate. This isn't mature writing, it's a way of making your writing look mature to an audience of teenage boys.

And then there's the story itself; most of which doesn't really go anywhere. At the end of book 1 Dany was planning to cross the narrow sea and reclaim her kingdom. Book 7 has her still planning to cross the narrow sea and reclaim her kingdom. Everything else not involving John Snow has a tendency to simply flounder around waiting for the main conflict of the series to begin. It's interesting up to a point, but after seven books I'm looking for a little more direction in my narrative.

Oh, and on a more minor note, the revelation that one of the Targarians has been secretly alive this whole time is one of the stupidest plot twists I've ever witnessed in a text.

To be clear, I didn't dislike the books. They were readable enough that I kept going to the end, and I'll probably carry on and read the rest of Martin ever makes them happen. I just don't think that they're particularly good.

FUCK my life!!! Do you mean to tell me this cock-teasing foot dragging bullshit continues for season after season after season of the show?!?!

 

[Miko]

Even more seasons than books as well, as I think they are planning on dividing some of the books into two series

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Even more seasons than books as well, as I think they are planning on dividing some of the books into two series

Hardly anything to get excited for now then. For sure just keep waiting for the DVDs to come out, and I have a weekend to kill. The last season left a bad taste in my mouth as it was.

Spartacus, you are now my one and only. and even you end next season

 

[Miko]

I'll go out on a limb and say that the Westerosi portion of the story doesnt suffer overly much from a lack of Dany, plus there are a few great characters coming into the third season now. But if your waiting for something to happen on that front then yeah, I wouldnt exactly hold my breath.

Just finished a fuckload of Sharpe books, which is the closest I read to history these days, and while Sharpe is supposed to be a scarred up, dark haired Londoner I cant help but put Sean Bean's face and voice on the guy. That said, the books are better than the series.

 

[JGlass]

I just got finished reading Chuck Klosterman's Sex, Drugs, and Coco Puffs. It was very entertaining, somewhat intellectual, but definitely funny. I think I'm going to buy one of his novels next. It's called Downtown Owl and it's about life in a small town in the middle of nowhere in North Dakota.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

The Classical World - From Homer to Hadrian, biographical accounts of important characters of late antiquity

Rubicon - chronicling how the Roman Republic rose, and then transitioned to a Empire

Caveman's frst year with baby - kind of "what to expect when expecting with funny cartoons and written from a man's perspective

Never panic - the ultimate guide to self suffeciency survival in the wild

 

[Барбоса]

It is likely that the each of the books that have been split for publication in the UK - A Storm of Swords and A Dance With Dragons - will be split into two separate seasons. Season 3, which is being filmed right now, is to take in the first half of ASOS. That would mean a minimum of 9 seasons for the show. However, I would fully expect at least one of the last two volumes - The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring - to also require splitting.

Beware: there be the same kind of spoilers as those of Gelg in the tags below.

Spoiler

I would agree with basically all of Gelg's critique of ASOIAF, particularly in regard to the seemingly peripheral stories of Arya, Bran, Sansa, Dani, Samwell and even Tyrion. Bran and Sansa in particular are at times quite dire characters. At least the makers of the show have tried to do something with Sansa, making her a bit less of a victim.

However, I would say that of the other four, there are mitigating circumstances that make their periphery status more bearable. I am not a fan of Dani's character at all. As one of the primary characters, her 'progression' in the aftermath of AGOT stalled quite dramatically. The trip to Qarth was seemingly laden with symbolism and the importance of her meeting with the Undying and Quaithe but throughout ACOK, she is just dire. Again, at least the show makers recognised that and tried to rectify it to some order such giving her a real reason to go to the House of the Undying.

However, while she is still very much on the periphery, since arriving at Astapor her story has been so much more interesting; although I would say that most of that has to do with the characters around her rather than her herself. While the outcome of the inevitable Battle of Slaver's Bay is obvious, the collection of characters, armies, navies, tribesmen, Free Companies, mercenaries, insurgents and dragons at the Siege of Meereen makes for a good read.

I think Arya's chapters do seem to be largely pointless but are saved by the likeability of Arya herself. They remain entertaining, if not entirely central to the plot. I would say the same about Tyrion. The strength of his character is enough to overcome the distances he has travelled away from the main theatre.

I have a special place in my heart for Samwell. While I again agree that much of his story would seem to have little or no bearing on the main events, to me, he represents something very different compared to the rest - the archetypal fish out of water. Everyone else seems to be perfectly fine/ desensitised to the rape, pillage and bloodshed that goes on around them on a daily basis, whilst Samwell remains the innocent boy, who gradually begins to realise that his intellect is something that is of benefit to him and perhaps even the Seven Kingdoms, despite what his father's feelings. I would say that removing him from the main theatre has been a mistake.

The real problem is that Martin at some stage will have to inject meaning and importance into this side-stories and draw them back into the centre of his story and yet as the books have gone on, if anything he has moved further away from a conclusion, meaning that it is getting harder and harder for him to make a 'realistic' story that brings everything together. It is like he is so determined to build a world and a mythology the like of Tolkein that he is forgetting to deal with his own "Red Book of Westmarch" first. As Gelg hinted at, perhaps only the storyline on and beyond the Wall has a clear route to a finish with the battle against the Others.

I also thought that the twist/reveal of Young Griff, whilst adding a new dimension to the story and Dani's in particular, was story-telling at its very cheapest.

I would also say that while I applaud Martin's willingness to kill off main characters, he has at times relegated some of his best characters - I am thinking in particular of Greatjon Umber, Jaqen H'ghar, Oberyn Martel and to a lesser extent, Mance Rayder and Randyl Tarly (Tarly is basically Stannis).

 

[Барбоса]

The Classical World - From Homer to Hadrian, biographical accounts of important characters of late antiquity

Reading Lane Fox are we? I have probably told you thins before but then your next port of call should be Peter Brown's The World of Late Antiquity: AD 150-750 - if there is a better written book on the period, I have yet to find it. And unlike others that profess to be, it is actually about Late Antiquity. Hadrian is High Empire, not late. If you were feeling really adventurous, you should get your hands on AHM Jones' The Later Roman Empire 284-602.

Rubicon - chronicling how the Roman Republic rose, and then transitioned to a Empire

Holland's Persian Fire is so much better, as he is not tramping over already heavily trodden ground as he was with Rubicon. I do hate the guy though for writting a book about the same period as I am.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Reading Lane Fox are we? I have probably told you thins before but then your next port of call should be Peter Brown's The World of Late Antiquity: AD 150-750 - if there is a better written book on the period, I have yet to find it. And unlike others that profess to be, it is actually about Late Antiquity. Hadrian is High Empire, not late. If you were feeling really adventurous, you should get your hands on AHM Jones' The Later Roman Empire 284-602.



Holland's Persian Fire is so much better, as he is not tramping over already heavily trodden ground as he was with Rubicon. I do hate the guy though for writting a book about the same period as I am.

Oh yea? Whats it about? the persian one I mean. I did enjoy his writing a lot in Rubicon. I was disappointed though, as I read the description incorrectly, thinking it was a book about the fall of the west, lulz. That is actually my main core area of interest right now, the fall of the west, the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries. Im just now wading through a lot of research work on the gothic wars, the anglo saxon invasions, the Seven Kingdoms(which were actually like, 12) and working my way to Charlemange, and William of Normandy.

I will try to find that Peter Brown one at the post library, hopefully before we roll out for another 6 weeks or so of shenanigans.

Perhaps that is why the book ends with Hadrian then?? ( I dont mean that in a jackassey way, genuine conjecture with hands in a shrugging mannerism)

 

[Барбоса]

Oh yea? Whats it about? the persian one I mean.

Persian Fire is about the Persian Empire of the 6th-4th centuries BCE, the one that Alexander the Great consigned to the dustbin of history.

I did enjoy his writing a lot in Rubicon. I was disappointed though, as I read the description incorrectly, thinking it was a book about the fall of the west, lulz. That is actually my main core area of interest right now, the fall of the west, the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries. Im just now wading through a lot of research work on the gothic wars, the anglo saxon invasions, the Seven Kingdoms(which were actually like, 12) and working my way to Charlemange, and William of Normandy.

Holland has written a book called In The Shadow Of The Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World, which focuses on the rise of Islam and how it changed the world. My book is similar, although more militarily focused.

Peter Heather has written a book on the importance of barbarian migration/invasion in the development of western Europe called Empires and Barbarians. Guy Halsall wrote a more academic but still readable on the same subject - Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West 376-568

John Haldon is a good source of Byzantine history and there is a new book not long out about the Gothic Wars in Italy. The author's name escapes me at the moment... ah, here it is in my Amazon Wish List - Torsten Jacobsen's The Gothic War: Rome's Final Conflict in the West

To my knowledge, there is yet to be a large number of high quality, accessible works on the period of post-Roman Western Europe. However, as there has been a dramatic upturn in the interest in the "End of the Roman Empire," I would suggest that there will soon be a wave of works on Saxon England and the Frankish Empire - Charlemagne is an interesting character. I will actually briefly touch on the exploits of his father, Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) in my book as it is he who finally stops the Muslim advance in western Europe at the Battle of Tours in 732 - 150 miles short of Paris.

I will try to find that Peter Brown one at the post library, hopefully before we roll out for another 6 weeks or so of shenanigans.

There is also Peter Heather's rather good The Fall of the Roman Empire and Bryan Ward-Perkins' The Fall of the West.

Perhaps that is why the book ends with Hadrian then?? ( I dont mean that in a jackassey way, genuine conjecture with hands in a shrugging mannerism)

I was hinting more at your "The Classical World - From Homer to Hadrian, biographical accounts of important characters of late antiquity." There are also plenty of academics who would call Hadrian "late." I suppose it is something to do with perspective. If you are an early Republic scholar, Hadrian is 400 years later and that is a long time. However, the Roman Empire survives for centuries after Hadrian so that would mean that the "late" period is a longer than any other Roman period.

 

[smizzy]

On the home stretch of Count of Monte Cristo by Alexndre Dumas, and simply put, it's been brilliant.

 

[Harthan]

I don't have a massive objection; I just don't think they're particularly good. I can't really explain why without massive spoilers, which I have a rule against. I will be vague and non-descriptive, but there's your warning.

Spoiler

I think the bulk of my objection from book 2 onward is that you're spending an easy majority of the narrative with characters who don't advance the plot. The best example is Arya, who was one of my favorite characters from book one, but since witnessing he dad's head come off she has performed not one action of significance to the story. All she has done if bounce around the custody of close to a dozen different groups as a lazy narrative device, running away and then instantly getting sucking into a different group whenever necessary. For five books she hasn't done anything except serve as a pair of eyes and an occasional plot mcguffin. That's not good storytelling.

Arya is the worst culprit of this, but she's far from the only one. Bran, Dany, Sansa, Sam and even Tyrion in the later books are much the same, simply bouncing from location to location not advancing the story. Martin is very visibly more interested in exploring his world than exploring his characters. The assumption is that they'll all have a role to play at the close, but nine books is too long to spend with a character waiting for them to do something, especially when quite a few of the characters are decidedly one dimensional. Here; allow me to summarize Brandon Stark's character as witnessed across half a dozen novels. He likes stories and is unhappy that he's got no legs. That's it. If you can tell me anything more about Bran's character then I'll be supremely impressed. That's not even touching on the number of characters who are given almost no personality at all. The Dany subplot is fine because she's a rounded enough character to keep it interesting, but many of the other narrative lines are simply not worth their existence.

I'm also not wild about the juvenile and at times borderline misogynistic tone that the novel takes at times. I'll take shit for bringing up feminism on the internet, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Martin seems to positively delight in bringing references to violent rape into the narrative; never in any way that actually effects the plot or looks at it as a serious issue, just every few chapters he's keen to remind the reader that there's a lot a raping gone on around the place. There's a frankly hilarious disparity between the treatment of same sex relationships. Any gay relationships in the narrative are incredibly understated, to the point where you wouldn't even notice them unless you were looking, in spite of the fact that they're a major driving force behind some of the plot (I actually really like that, there isn't all that much subtlety in the books). In contrast Martin is keen to offer a great deal of detail to the completely unnecessary and irreverent lesbian sex scenes he throws the reader's way from time to time. Neither of these things is a big deal in of themselves, but I just use them to highlight a trend that I don't appreciate. This isn't mature writing, it's a way of making your writing look mature to an audience of teenage boys.

And then there's the story itself; most of which doesn't really go anywhere. At the end of book 1 Dany was planning to cross the narrow sea and reclaim her kingdom. Book 7 has her still planning to cross the narrow sea and reclaim her kingdom. Everything else not involving John Snow has a tendency to simply flounder around waiting for the main conflict of the series to begin. It's interesting up to a point, but after seven books I'm looking for a little more direction in my narrative.

Oh, and on a more minor note, the revelation that one of the Targarians has been secretly alive this whole time is one of the stupidest plot twists I've ever witnessed in a text.

To be clear, I didn't dislike the books. They were readable enough that I kept going to the end, and I'll probably carry on and read the rest of Martin ever makes them happen. I just don't think that they're particularly good.

I'm too tired to thoroughly disagree with you right now, but it's okay.

You should try Kingkiller Chronicles sometime. I'd be curious as to what you think of more fantasy, particularly what I'd say is the best fantasy in ten years.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I've read a few Michael Connelly books in the past few weeks but nothing much right now. I have to read 11th Hour by James Patterson and I can't wait for the new Alex Cross books to come out.