Atlanta Region, Fifth Round: (1) Shawn Michaels vs. (6) Brock Lesnar

Discussion in 'Atlanta Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 27, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Shawn Michaels

  2. Brock Lesnar

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    If you don't mind, I'll respond to you arse over tit - I'll address the bolded parts in each case.

    Yourself, 772Attitude, Pheonix and Friendly Neighbourhood JGlass have all alluded to HBK's loses since his return in 2002 - I believe it was Pheonix who referred to him as a 'jobber to the stars'. In his run from WMXII to WMXIV, this could not be claimed to be the case (rumoured in part to be due to his feud with Bret in the 'losing his smile' affair).

    The loss to Big Show was down to naivity in not seeing a Heyman swerve, not something that reflects well on him. The loss to Kurt Angle at Vengence was in a No DQ match, so by definition it was a clean loss followed by your aforementioned match at SummerSlam and a clean loss of the IWGP belt in 2007. He tapped out to the Rabid Wolverine at the Survivor Series where his team of comparative giants lost to the smaller more technically proficient group. His loss to Eddie was of his own doing - nothing forced him to antagonise Goldberg at the Royal Rumble.

    Three members of the Kliq were or went onto become headliners - Kevin Nash defeated Goldberg for the WCW title and came out on top in a number one contenders match as well meanng that he ultimately came out ahead of him in both feuds they had. Trips may not have had the tools as a heel to cleanly vanquish big Bill but he did come away from their feud with the title. Two of HBK's underlings in the Kliq had the smarts to exit feuds with Goldberg losing the gold, never to regain.


    It is a pity that this match never occured as this would have been the perfect scenario for the ultimate HBK match; while Vader, 'Taker et al were no slouches at throwing Shawn around - Lesnar's god given gifts would have been that much better. Despite (and more likely because) of that, HBK would still come out on top during the kayfabe primes because it makes for a better storyline and the headline face is always due to ultimately vanquish the headline heel - the more unlikely this is to happen, the better.
     
    #26
  2. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Yeah, because you can see a Heyman swerve a mile away. Damn that Big Show for not seeing that swerve a month later. Irrelevant.

    Actually it was a triple threat match with the Big Show involved as well. Irrelevant.


    This isn't a Survivor Series match. Oh, and what happened a month later in a match for the world title? Brock Lock on Benoit, Benoit passes out. Same thing sure can happen to HBK.

    Goldberg defeated Kevin Nash three times. Nash defeated Goldberg once with the help of a taser.

    HHH couldn't do it clean and as usual had to have help. Just like Nash.


    Let's make sure Brock and HBK face off in next year's tournament so HBK can ultimately get the win.
     
    #27
  3. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Shawn did beat some of the better 'big men' during his heyday. No doubt. Unfortunately the only one close to the sheer brutality of Lesnar would be Vader. Problem is, Vader isnt nearly as fast or technically sound as Brock. Next runner up would be Taker. Problem there is that Brock destroyed Taker in his own yard, in his own demonic match. He squeezed the life from Hogan & wiped the blood of Hulkamania on his chest as war paint.

    Shawn will always be the show-stopper, & one of the best in history. Brock is just too much for Shawn here folks. Size, strength & great technical ability wins it for Brock. Lesnar dosent care about what you did in the past (titles, etc). He mad a huge impact by running over superstars with a great list of accolades. When did Shawn ever dominate a guy (bigger or smaller) than himself in such a decisive manner like Brock was known to do weekly??


    HBK is fantastic, but would not beat Lesnar.
     
    #28
  4. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Irrelevant? A momentary distraction and he loses - with the speed SCM is hit - that'd be disastrous. Hardly irrelevant.

    The 'small' man went over two monsters strong, this WZ quarter final match is about one small man versus one monster. Kurt Angle never came out ahead of the 'jobber to the stars' Michaels in WWe kayfabe and yet he did have a winning record against a primed Lesnar. People have always pointed out the similarities between Angle and Lesnar, a prime HBK always has a chance.

    Another point from the Lesnar/ Angle feud is that, while Brock won 5-4, in their Iron Man Match - Lesnar weakened as the hour wore on and was hanging on at the end to prevent Angle levelling. In Shawn's prime, name a quick loss he suffered?

    Could do, but Benoit isn't a late '90s HBK. He wouldn't submit or pass out to the Sharpshooter after all.

    It's not a Survivor Series match, but this loss shows how the F5 can be countered when the opponent slips through, HBK slips through he'll be turning round into some loosened teeth.

    And yet they both ended his only title run in two separate companies, so who 'won' ultimately? They showed how a heel wins a feud with monster faces, HBK in his prime period showed how you do the same with monster heels again and again.

    How about next year we get them a gimmick match because then Lesnar might go over?

    When HBK was top dog, he beat every challenger in the WWF at that time... when Lesnar was Smackdown top dog he beat everyone on the B show, which means he had a distance to go to be WWe numero uno.
     
    #29
  5. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Actually, Lesnar and Angle are tied. If you count DQ's, Lesnar has the edge. Try again.

    So what you're saying Brock Lesnar would be more apt to lose in a quicker fashion than HBK? This match isn't going to go 60 minutes. I'd be surprised if it goes past 20.


    HHH was scared and wanted to keep guys like Lesnar and Angle on Smackdown. While Lesnar was having great matches with Angle and Benoit on Smackdown, HHH was having shit matches with all of his "friends" on Raw. Put Lesnar on Raw and the same thing would happen. Beat everybody.
     
    #30
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  6. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Shawn in his prime lost to Diesel, Ramon and Sid. Guys who may be bigger than Lesnar but are nowhere as brutal. Lesnar may have built his 6 month hype on putting past-their-prime names out on the shelf (and The Rock), but I'll be damned if he didn't do it in impressive fashion. HBK is the adequate victim for Brock. Sweet Chin Music you say?



    Chairs didn't put him out. Why would the Superkick? What's to stop him from catching it like 'Taker did on Raw and just fling him like a ragdoll? Nothing. Brock Lesnar was a true beast. Face or heel. HBK could be the God of technical wrestling, but that doesn't ensure a victory over Lesnar.
     
    #31
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  7. Con T.

    Con T. Yaz ain't enough, I need Fluttershy

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    Would be a good point, had Shawn also not beaten all of these men soundly at some point during his run to greatness. Diesel was beaten in a no holds barred match, a match that suits his character better, and beat Sid two months after Sid beat him. Yes, Shawn can lose to bigger wrestlers, but he also beats them just as much as he loses to them.


    Brutal, eh? Let me tell you about brutal. You know who was brutal? Vader. Vader is probably the most physical, imposing wrestler from the 90s onward. And Shawn not only made him cry in the ring, Shawn beat him in their blowoff match at Summerslam. Not to mention, Shawn has also beaten Triple H in perhaps the most brutal match of all time, at Summerslam 2002.

    Yeah, brutal isn't exactly that horrible for Shawn.

    Which would be great, if we were dealing with past his prime Shawn. But we aren't, now are we?


    Vader, Diesel, Sid, Davey Boy, Kane, all men who have shown signs of superhuman strength, just like Brock, all of whom have gone down to SCM.

    Brock is a beast, but HBK has plenty of experience with these kind of opponents. If anything, it's the kind of wrestler that Shawn feasted on, in his prime.

    But it really doesn't do much to help Lesnar's case. Again, being a beast with a formidible figure only gets you so far. Like, to the Elite Eight. Meaning not past this round
     
    #32
  8. AnvilForever

    AnvilForever Occasional Pre-Show

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    Damn, those chair shots by the Hardys have to be the loudest I have EVER heard.

    Still, I pick HBK to win this match. Like Cole Miner said, being a Big Man only gets you so far. For me, HBK's experience puts him over the top. He's lost to big men in the past, but it only gives him more experience. He's accustomed to the smash-up style guys like Lesnar use, and he'll use his technical skills and agility to dodge it. A close match, but after multiple superkicks, Lesnar finally goes down.
     
    #33
  9. ThUnDeRpHoEnIx

    ThUnDeRpHoEnIx Proud Team Bring It Member

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    0:03 to HBK after a surpise SCM.Im kidding btw.

    But I voted for HBK.HBK's has tons of experience taken down big men and Lesnar is no different. Where as Lesnar doesnt have anywhere near HBK's level of experience.In a hard fought match HBK after a SCM at around 17:28
     
    #34
  10. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    I'm voting for Brock Lesnar because he is bigger and therefore would beat Shawn Michaels.
     
    #35
  11. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    I'm voting for Shawn Michaels because he dominated Lesnar, complete with Sweet Chin Music, in under 10 seconds according to this video..

    [youtube]3L1Y2X6WeMg[/youtube]

    The actual match between the two of them would probably go another 10 seconds while Lesnar got counted out. ;)

    Brock Lesnar left the business as quickly as possible because he knew once he started having problems with Hardcore Holly, the shit was hitting the fan. :rolleyes: Shawn Michaels has beaten every size of opponent - Lesnar has nothing that HBK hasn't seen before.

    Seriously though - HBK has my vote because he's one of my all-time favorites. Lesnar is shit compacted into a steroid-looking body with a penis tattoo on the cover.
     
    #36
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  12. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Brock Lesnar has beaten every size of opponent as well. What does HBK bring that Brock Lesnar hasn't seen? I also vote for Brock because he has cooler hair.
     
    #37
  13. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    Pfft. Lesnar hasn't F-5'd HBK. HBK's Superkicked Lesnar.. that's all I need. He had his chance to show his worth in that segment, and Lesnar couldn't do crap except eat boot.

    For me, I'm voting based off the following..

    1. Who's got the better out of segments when they've been together? - HBK
    2. Who has better tights? - HBK
    3. Who's hair is longer? (I'm biased, ya know) - HBK
    4. Who's going into the Hall of Fame in under a week? - HBK

    HBK gets the nod in every catagory. :shrug: I see no way around it.
     
    #38
  14. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    You may be right, my count is 3 wins to Kurt (Vengence, SummerSlam & IWGP title match) and 2 to Brock (WM and the Iron Man Match). But I can only think of Belt matches between the two. However, in their last bout 29 year old Brock was defeated by 38 year old Kurt.

    I'm saying Shawn made an example in his prime of being the guy who could (to paraphrase a god) go all night. In his one extended match, squash king Brock appeared to be lacking in this department.

    Kayfabe, nobody went over Hunter long term during this period. Sorry but neither Lesnar nor Angle would have either, I think we're big enough boys (you've alluded to it very succinctly) to know that at this point Paul wouldn't acquiescent to this. However, in a way, this strengthens Shawn's case - if best bud won't give Brock the rub, why would petulant prime diva HBK?
     
    #39
  15. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Brock still won that Iron Man match, did he not? Also, Lesnar landed on his feet after that SCM and Brock was 25 or 26 when he was feuding. Must be losing your mind in your old age. I imagine HBK would give Brock a rub like he did Orton, Benoit, Edge, Masters, Kennedy, etc.
     
    #40
  16. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Yup he held on, still queries his ability against a guy renowned for resilience.

    Erm, are we talking about the video were he flies over the top rope and rolls into the announce table?

    Kurt Angle (born December 9, 1968) defeated Brock Lesnar (born July 12, 1977) for IWGP Title June 29, 2007. I'll let you do the mathematics in case my old ass has forgotten arithmetic.

    All post prime when he was the 'jobber to the stars'.
     
    #41
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  17. 48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You

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    I don't think it's relevant to be discussing whether or not "so and so" would be booked over "so and so". It isn't fair to judge a match based on who would give who the "rub". As far as I know, this tournament is independent of the WWE, and thus, backstage politics and biases should not be taken into consideration. Judge a match on what a wrestler has done throughout his career in the ring, on the mic, whatever... not on "Shawn wouldn't let Brock go over him." That's irrelevant and a lazy argument.
     
    #42
  18. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    Put Brock in his prime in any era with HBK vs. his prime, Brock is just the better wrestler. Brock was dominant, able to throw giants around with ease, able to out-wrestle technicians without breaking a sweat, and he was quick enough to keep up with even the fastest competitors. HBK could wrestle a technician, but it wasn't his forte. HBK's forte was cunning and speed, but neither of those would be able to save him from Brock's brute strength.

    Last Monday, we saw The Undertaker catch Sweet Chin Music and reverse it into a chokeslam. If Brock Lesnar catches Sweet Chin Music he may very well start swinging HBK around by that leg until it ripped straight of Shawn Michaels' body. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but Brock Lesnar's power is nothing that can be shrugged off. All of Shawn Michaels' speed, whit, cunning, and veteran knowledge can not save him from the beast that is Brock Lesnar.
     
    #43
  19. Born To Fly

    Born To Fly Occasional Pre-Show

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    I couldn't have said it better myself. My vote goes to Brock Lesnar for those very reasons.

    Lesnar was one of the biggest, baddest guys in the WWE for a spell and he's just head and shoulders above so many others athletically, including Shawn Michaels. HBK would get worn down and Lesnar would get him in the long run.
     
    #44
  20. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    :lmao: I love how people are acting like Brock Lesnar is some super-natural, all-powerful guy who'd (once gotten ahold of HBK) break and/or "rip" body parts off of him as if he's some type of plastic toy. Seriously? No.

    I'm pretty sure this video explains everything that needs to be said.

    [youtube]fVNbMtgpvW8[/youtube]

    And if not that one, then this one..

    [youtube]SQ-0CXJqGDg[/youtube]

    Lesnar was a beast in Wrestling, because lets face it - he was booked to be. IN the realm of real life, people smaller than him have knocked him the fuck out. Period.

    This tournament isn't WWE based; so backstage politics, rubs, or any other random spin-offs that people want to hope tons will buy into so Lesnar has a chance here - can be forgotten about. When you break down the reality of the situation.. this is the outcome. Every. Single. Time.

    [youtube]-Zq0bB3oa6c[/youtube]
     
    #45
  21. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    But by definition this is why both Brock and HBK have gotten to this stage of the tournament, because of their pushes. For example (of the top of my head); Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, Roddy Piper, Christian, Fit Finlay (all guys I have fought for at various stages, to no avail) and several others would have had great chances of progression if it wasn't for the pushes their opponents had in their careers.

    The facts are Brock was booked to be an almost unstoppable monster and HBK, in his prime, was booked to be a giant killer and was very picky about who he put over.

    I have argued on why HBK would beat Brock in a straight up match - as I said he specialised at beating big guys. I've argued it's traditional for top line underdog faces to defeat top line monster heels under the good guy/ bad guy philosophy and I've argued that a past his prime Heartbreak Kid held his own against the closest competitor the WWe had to Lesnar in Kurt Angle as reasons why Shawn'll go over.

    If you want it based on career - Shawn goes over, he has done more and has had a greater impact. Lesnar was constricted to Smackdown opponents, whilst Michaels defeated everyone in the federation in his prime, as I've argued.

    On the mic, Shawn goes over. Lesnar was regarded so weak on promos, he was given a great mouthpiece in Heyman to counter this. Promo skills IS an irrelevant and lazy argument, who talks their way to victory?

    To say politics is either irrelevant or lazy is just plain silly - it may be WRONG (along with drawing ability) but it has been used time and time again in this event (along with drawing ability) and any attempts to go against this grain has nearly always been to no effect. If the argument was used that 2005 Brock would never be booked to lose to 2005 Shawn, I might not like it but I would have to concur because it would be true.
     
    #46
  22. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

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    This may be a worse argument than your "Edge is due a win" argument. You're really going to bring UFC into a professional wrestling tournament? That's not only ridiculous, it's insulting to our intelligence. If we're going to bring outside sporting endeavors into the conversation, than I say Goldberg should lose every round because, while he was a beast in the ring, he was not much of a football player. Ron Simmons, on the other hand, was a very good football player. As such, Ron Simmons should beat Goldberg every year.

    If we're going to take Lesnar's UFC career into account, then we should also consider how Shawn would fair against Lesnar in an octogon. Chances tell me that in a UFC match, Brock would actually rip Shawn's leg off, where in a professional wrestling match he'd at least leave Shawn's body somewhat intact.

    Puh-fucking-lease.

    What the FUCK are you talking about? Of course it's professional wrestling based, it's a fucking professional wrestling tournament. It theoretically takes place inside a wrestling ring under wrestling rules. It is not a UFC tournament, it is a wrestling tournament.

    And if you want to talk about how backstage politics shouldn't play a role, look no further than Shawn Michaels, the king of wrestling politics. If you want to take any pushes gained from politicking out of the tournament, then say hasta la vista to half of HBK's career.

    For fucks sake Will, you've been doing this for years, and THIS is the best you have? This is nothing short of pathetic.
     
    #47
  23. 48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You

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    Everyone was booked to be something in their career as a wrestler. However, that's not what I was arguing against. I meant that we shouldn't look at this match right now and ask ourselves, "Now... who would be booked over who?" We should look at what these two superstars did in the ring (or whatever criteria you judge these matches on) and decide who would win based on past matches, style, physical advantages or disadvantages, etc. In a sense, look at it as if wrestling is real - go kayfabe. That's the most fun way to judge the WrestleZone Tournament.
     
    #48
  24. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    I agree totally and like I mentioned, I have always tried to go with this criteria in that I've tried to get people who've never won World titles over guys who are multi time Champions. However, when people obstinately claim that HBK would never go over Lesnar and history indicates different, it is better to acknowledge the elephant in the room before the person you are debating with comes back with the argument that it's 'only because of his backstage politicking at that time'. He may have held a lot of sway but that was because he was phenomenal (sorry AJ), especially in matches when he overcame seemingly insurmountable odds.

    I'm not a fan of 'A beats B because that is what creative would dictate' but I do acknowledge it's a part of most of these discussions. I just wasn't a fan of your implication that I was only using this argument - if I had, you would be right it would have been 'lazy'.
     
    #49
  25. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I just do not see why Brock Lesnar should not win this. In his prime, Brock was an absolute beast of a performer. Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Undertaker and Kurt Angle, four of the biggest stars in the WWE have gone down to Lesnar, cleanly. Brock has defeated both big names as well as great in ring performers.

    Brock has never lost to anyone of HBK's size cleanly except once against Kurt Angle. But he has numerous victories over Kurt as well. HBK, on the other hand, has been defeated by men of Lesnar's size but not of Lesnar's ability. Slow big men like Diesel and Psycho Sid have gotten the best of him, while Undertaker, perhaps a guy very similar to Brock in strength but not in technical ability has never been beaten cleanly by HBK and has beaten HBK clean twice. I do not know where this myth that HBK has a good record against big men comes from as he certainly has a loss to show for every win that he might have. Do I even need to remind you guys how The Great Khali dominated HBK on Raw?

    Inside the ring, HBK cannot claim to have an advantage over Brock in any aspect. Speed, athletic ability, stamina and endurance are HBK's strengths but Brock can match HBK in any of those departments and even outshine him. What puts Brock in a league of his own, however, are his strength and his power.

    However I understand that some people are voting on the basis of career achievements as well. HBK has certainly had a long career but is it significantly better than that of Brock's? So significant that it can nullify Brock's huge advantage over HBK in terms of ring skills? HBK was a great wrestler but a shit draw unlike Brock, who was undoubtedly the face of the company in 2003 and a great draw too. Sure HBK has put on some great matches but so has Brock. Brock's great matches may be lesser in number but quality wise, they are up with HBK's best matches.

    So in the end I would say that Brock totally dominates HBK in terms of ring skills and while HBK has had a better career, it is not significantly better than that of Brock to make me consider changing my vote.

    Vote Brock!!!
     
    #50

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