DUN, DUN, DUNNNNN... (sorry, couldn't help myself
)
Understandable. This all very dramatic.
I didn't spin anything. You mention Rocky going head to head with Hogan but this was after all of that already-developed, home-grown WWE talent took their popularity and jumped to WCW and after guys like Foley, Austin, Taker, and the rest of my previous list already became established. I think you've got your time tables a little twisted.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Fact is that Bret Hart is NOT one of my favorites. Furthermore, I never liked him as a singles star when he got to main event level. But I won't discount his accomplishments and what he had to work with. I made this argument when I won the Debate League a few years back. There was much more to Bret's lack of draw than straight numbers.
There's always a context to numbers, but there's just no denying that business dropped when Bret Hart was champion, and didn't recover until other stars took over. Hell, when Bret came back for a highly advertised, triumphant, 15-years-in-the-making return, the Raw rating barely moved. Meanwhile, the week after the Rock came back (using the next week since his return was unadvertised), they jumped from a 3.14 to a 3.83. And those numbers can very much be used straight up.
This was years after Bret left the company and jumped to WCW, after DX became the WWE's version of the nWo, and after all of WWE's talent had established themselves. Once again, you are describing stuff that happened 3-4 years after what I'm talking about. Bret lead the NewGen era from 1994-1998... Rock won his first world title in 1998. Irony? I think not.
So, once Bret Hart rode all the momentum and goodwill towards him from the wrestling community over to WCW, the WWF's ratings INCREASED. The WWF was CONSISTENTLY getting below a 3.0 in the months (note the plural) before Bret Hart left, and IMMEDIATELY upon his departure, the ratings went 3.0 or better for the remainder of the year (and the duration of the Attitude Era) outside of one night in December. That's just facts, Jack.
Definitely. You picked terrible representatives for Bret Harts cohorts and used only the cream of the crop for Rockys.
He wasn't even en established main event superstar until two years into Bret's "leadership" of the NewGen era.
Yeah, if you're going to take "Angle, Brock Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero, Hardy Boyz, Edge, Christian, and many others", I'm definitely taking Shawn Michaels.
The only established star who didn't draw dick in that time period.
If you're taking him in the Attitude Era, I'm definitely taking him in the New Generation.
Drew less than Taker did as champ.
But more than Bret.
Yes. He was one of the biggest cogs of the nWo and he was also insanely over and on the verge of being a Main Eventer when he left the WWF.
All of whom didn't draw enough to even be given the WWE championship.
Neither did a lot of the guys you mentioned helping Rocky. Heck, Roddy Piper and Ted DiBiase, too. Doesn't mean they don't count.
WCW-established. Was a failure in the WWE to the point where they had to keep the title on Bret and Yoko-fucking-zuna because he was so bad.
Hardly a failure, he was Main Eventing WWF shows, big ones, just like Bret Hart was. Hell, it's pretty much an acknowledged misstep to not put the title on Luger at Summerslam after the Lex Express.
Luger was nothing more than a guy who showed up on the first episode of Nitro. He wasn't a part of the nWo then. He feuded with them but people didn't pay to see him... they paid to see WWF guys invade WCW. So once again, WWF superstars that had advantages over Bret to begin with were the ones that took his ratings and buyrates.
He was the main opponent for nWo for awhile, the guy fans were desperate to see take the title off Hogan (and popped huge for when he did on Nitro to famously end Hollywood Hogan's original title reign.)
Not back then. He was just a blooming main eventer.
Again, you used examples of guys who weren't Main Eventers until well into the Rock's time on top. Can't have it both ways.
Speed and size never stopped Bret from defeating men like Sid, Undertaker, Yokozuna, and Diesel. Bret had more stamina, skill, agility, and the like than all of those guys. How can you downgrade Bret like that? It's all opinionated and speculation on your end which is completely unfair. Stick to facts here. (PS - jumping high means nothing.)
The whole tournament is based on opinion with very little in the way of objective facts. The main objective facts are win/loss record, title reigns, and mainly drawing power, and you've been dismissive of that.
This part of the argument was about athleticism as it pertained to being in a wrestling ring... not who could run the 40 quicker.
Now you're just marginalizing my argument. Bret was a plodder in the ring. Rock was much more explosive. That very much involved in-ring, and was very much a product of Rocky's superior athleticism.
Bret was more conditioned than possibly any wrestler that ever existed.
You tell me to stick with facts, and then say something like this? This is totally your opinion.
I'm not saying the Rock wasn't anywhere near this level of training or discipline but Bret had the edge.
I agree that Bret had superior discipline.
Once again, you're taking it like I say Rock is dogshit and Bret is god. Not true. You claim that the Rock is a "more important to the wrestling industry." More popular? Arguable but I'd lean towards it. As for importance, the Rock's short career didn't come near what Bret and his family did for the industry.
It's arguable that Bret Hart is more popular than Bret Hart? Maybe in Canada. Maybe. Importance? Hell yes. Rocky is the bigger star. He did things that nobody had done before. Bret did not.
That's cool but I disagree. Good debate, though.
Good debate to you, sir.
One last point: Rock and Bret have one singles match to their history. This is back when Rock was RIGHT after Rocky Maivia became The Rock...and Bret was in his prime. The result is a Rocky Maivia win.
Vote Rocky. He's the man. He's better. And he beat Bret head to head.
