Are you a Christian?

[#hamler]

I don't look down on anyone who doesn't read it because I understand where they are coming from but Hamler have you ever a lot of the Bible? See I don't look down on people who don't read it but what I don't understand is you are claiming something that is completely un true. You said that all it talks about is greek gods? Well thats the complete opposite of the Bible. The Bible states that you shouldn't believe in any other gods because there is only one true God and that is, God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit.

Thank you for proving my point. You just said "The Bible states that you shouldn't believe in other gods"...that's christain looking down on people who believe in other gods. Who gives you or any christain the right to say "your are wrong" for worshiping a statue or some other god? Nothing at all. That's a typical christain, if you don't believe them, you're going to hell. They need to accept that there's a high chance, with the thousands of religions, that they are wrong about everything.

And by the way, I was comparing the bible to books about greek gods. The greek gods use powers to control the ocean and whatnot, just like "God" had powers or whatever the hell you called it. I'm not a christain because I have logic.

 

[Disturbed]

You two do not understand my point. Alright let me start whith this, just because someone claims to be a christian doesn't mean they truly are. Real Christians do not look down on anyone. That is my problem, where I am sinning and you can red rep if you want because I have to admitt I have a huge problem with Gays. I just look down on them and I shouldn't I don't know why I do but it is un christ like and I am going to try and change that. If you claim that you are a christain but you look down on someone for not reading the Bible or beleiving other gods then you are sinning. Also SUper Dave,, Leviticus is from the Old Testement. Those were the hardcore days. Everything changed in the new testament after Jesus came.

 

[People's Champ]

Issue 1 – You have stated, on multiple occasions, that the Bible can help make you a better person. I am not disputing that. I have met plenty of nice Christians that would do anything to help me. However, I have also met a similar amount of non-Christians that would do the same thing. Just because the Bible teaches you to be a better person, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are the best of humanity. This argument is very similar to saying that video games and movies automatically make you a bad person, yet I am not out dressed as an Italian plumber jumping on mushrooms. The fact of the matter is that no one, to a man, should need someone/thing else to tell them how to be a good person.

No one said this was about being the best of humanity. This is about following God's requirements. Again, we are all imperfect. But as Christians, we try to be the best we can by following God's requirements. No one said everyone else was bad and is going to hell. In fact, I don't even believe in Hell. But the Bible is God's inspired Word. We follow him.

Issue 2 – Nothing gives the Bible the devine right to say what is acceptable in society and what is not. When I said that the Bible was outdated, this is what I was talking about. A lot of the practises that were evident in the Bible are no longer accepted. For example:



By this logic, I should be stoned to death for taking about the Bible and God in a tone of blasphemy. So, I ask you, should I die for my freedom of speech? I should be stoned to death because I have dared to question the Lord? Is that acceptable to you? The Bible is a crock of shit for multiple reason, my friend. This is just one of them. I could go on all da about the historical and factual inadequacies of the Bible but it wouldn't convince you or I any differently of our beliefs, would it?

Talk about ignorance. Why are you quoting the Hebrew Scriptures? If you talk to any real Christian you would know that Jesus coming to Earth and dying for our sins ended the Mosaic law, which that scripture you quoted from is a part of. So that is void. You would never meet a real Christian now who would even consider that. We try to help people understand the truth, but never force it down or try to beat it into people.

And look at page 2 and see I quoted a scripture that gave you one piece of evidence of the Bible's validity.

Issue 3 – You talk about abortion as if you were the person that people would come to for a definite answer. Abortion should be about pro-choice. I hate the way Christians try and poison the mind of people who have mistakenly gotten pregnant. You think they are not guilty enough about what they have done without you condemning them to Hell? Get a fucking grip.

The Hell that you talk about doesn't exist. The Bible makes no mention of people dying and being tortured forever. Hell is mentioned, however it is translated as Sheol, which is man's common grave. Not a firey place of torment.

As far as abortion goes, we take God's view. And he views life as precious, even in the womb. No Christian I have associated with has ever stood out in front clinics or went up to pregnant women and said they better notkill their child. While we don't agree with it, I would never take it upon myself to do that.

Issue 4 - Your defence about how “no one can teach you to be a good person” is fucking ridiculous. Let me ask you a question. When you were very young, did your parents sit you down with a Bible instead of teaching you the way the world works and teaching you what is right and wrong? Of course they didn't! Your parents were the ones who taught you, from a very early age, what was right and wrong in the world. However, if they are teaching you this straight from the Bible, then you may fall into the trap of becoming a worse person. Look at the passage I have posted above for evidence of this. You would think it were morally right to kill someone for talking badly of your Lord. Is that acceptable or has someone (society) dictated that you mustn’t do that?

Issue 5 – The Bible may be about the things that you have listed and I am not disputing that. However, your arrogance and ignorance about the book is nothing short of infuriating. Yes, it may be about those things but you are finding those things and then seeing parts of the Bible that suit those themes. I have read the Bible and feel that life is worth living. No book in existence can describe the feeling of love or how good it feels to be with someone you love. To assume that the Bible teaches of love before you can experience it, is fucking ******ed. You are feeling those things and then saying that the Bible must be right because it fits your situation and that is how it feels like it is true. To me, it also teaches hate, bigotry, greed and loathing.

For someone who is infuriated with his ignorance, you are showing some yourself. You obviously don't understand Christianity or the Bible. Quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures shows that. If you read from the Christian Greek Scriptures you will see Jesus' (who, again, abolished the Mosaic Law) message of love. That we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. That God is love. I could go on and on, but you're pretty much set in your belief of what the Bible is, so it would do no good. Just know your interpretation of the Bible is off. While I have no issues with people who have different views, I can't sit and watch as you chop up the Bible to try to fit what you think ,, when there is clear evidence of the opposite.

 

[Kenny Powers]

You two do not understand my point. Alright let me start whith this, just because someone claims to be a christian doesn't mean they truly are. Real Christians do not look down on anyone. That is my problem, where I am sinning and you can red rep if you want because I have to admitt I have a huge problem with Gays. I just look down on them and I shouldn't I don't know why I do but it is un christ like and I am going to try and change that. If you claim that you are a christain but you look down on someone for not reading the Bible or beleiving other gods then you are sinning. Also SUper Dave,, Leviticus is from the Old Testement. Those were the hardcore days. Everything changed in the new testament after Jesus came.

I usually don't get mixed up in the countless threads about religion and abortion, but you just contradicted yourself here. You say real Christians don't look down on other people but you have a huge problem with gays? The bible says men laying down with other men is an abomination, but it also says mixing cottons and linens and eating meat on Fridays is an abomination to. Everything is an abomination in the book.

Some interpret it as being against homosexuality, but scholars interpret it as continuing the Jewish race by Jews having relations with other women to procreate. So do you follow the hardcore days of the Old Testament or the New Testament? I'm just curious because how can you follow one version of the book and not the other?

I'm not a Christian and I'm not putting you down because you are one. Most people just don't know how to interpret the bible. Studies show that non believers know more about religion then believers do. I've read passages of the bible and have had some college religion classes, but I'm no expert. I just see the bible as a walking contradiction.

The Old Testament is a very violent book. The followers of God are told to kill and raid villages in his name. The chosen ones kill their wives and brothers. How can there be a commandment by God that says don't kill or commit adultery when he tells his followers to either kill their own son or others. Also, it seems adultery is taken lightly since David, Saul, and other kings have a slew of wives and even have relations with their soldiers wives, but they are treated like Gods.

Not trying to discredit you for your beliefs. I just think if you are a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc. that you should be one 100% and not 50 or 35 %. Also, give gays a break guy. I bet there are lots of nice gay men and women that work, go to school. or even go to church with you in your community. No one is asking you to be in love with them, but you shouldn't look down on them.

For someone who is infuriated with his ignorance, you are showing some yourself. You obviously don't understand Christianity or the Bible. Quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures shows that. If you read from the Christian Greek Scriptures you will see Jesus' (who, again, abolished the Mosaic Law) message of love. That we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. That God is love. I could go on and on, but you're pretty much set in your belief of what the Bible is, so it would do no good. Just know your interpretation of the Bible is off. While I have no issues with people who have different views, I can't sit and watch as you chop up the Bible to try to fit what you think ,, when there is clear evidence of the opposite.

So the Hebrew scriptures don't count? The only scriptures that count are the Christian Greek scriptures? The Hebrew scriptures were the first and oldest scriptures on record. You are in the same boat as Disturbed since it seems you both only follow the message you want to follow. It seems to me if you follow the bible then you should follow the Old and New Testament and not just one version.

That is just my two cents. I'm for freedom of religion for everyone regardless of what they worship. I just think some should practice what they preach. Especially politicians that run on Christian family values when they are having affairs with other women or even men. Not all Christians are like that. There are just some contradictions in the bible that can be translated as: Do as I say and not as I do.

 

[People's Champ]

So the Hebrew scriptures don't count? The only scriptures that count are the Christian Greek scriptures? The Hebrew scriptures were the first and oldest scriptures on record. You are in the same boat as Disturbed since it seems you both only follow the message you want to follow. It seems to me if you follow the bible then you should follow the Old and New Testament and not just one version.

That is just my two cents. I'm for freedom of religion for everyone regardless of what they worship. I just think some should practice what they preach. Especially politicians that run on Christian family values when they are having affairs with other women or even men. Not all Christians are like that. There are just some contradictions in the bible that can be translated as: Do as I say and not as I do.

I never said they don't count. There are great lessons and principles there that are still valuable today. I even quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures in one of my posts. It was Isaiah 40:22 which accurately described the shape of the Earth before any scientists or explorer did.

My point was that Dave was quoting from a part of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Mosaic Law) that was done away with once Jesus came to Earth and died for our sins. The Mosaic Law was created for the Israelites until God's Son would come down on Earth. Thus the reason there are no more animal sacrifices as was done at that time. They sacrificed animals as a way to approach God, but with Jesus being that perfect sacrifice, there was no more need for animal sacrifices. Its through Jesus that we can approach God. That's just one example of how the Mosaic Law is no longer in effect. Which is my point.

Listen, you can try and make it seem as if I follow only one part of the Bible or try to take whatever parts I see fit. That's not the case. Many of Jesus teachings are similar to what was written then. However, when Jesus came to Earth, many things changed as well.

We can sit and go for hours about this. I can sit and show you exactly how we don't discount the Hebrew Scriptures at all, but examine the whole Bible and learn from it. But it would just be a back and forth that leads nowhere, which is the main reason why I don't post in these threads. Its easy to find contridictions when you really don't understand the Bible. But once you go in depth and really take the time to study it you'll find the opposite.

 

[LSN80]

Yes, I am a Christian. My route to getting there was quite unorthodox.

I was raised in a Christian home. I attended church twice a week, at least. I had beliefs, ideas, and theories engrained in me on a daily basis. I had a wonderful example in my father. He lived what he heard on Sundays and Wednesdays. He attempted in every way to engrain those beliefs into us through one ideal: Love.

My mother was the complete opposite. I was adopted, along with my twin and younger sister. She never failed to remind us of that when we screwed up. It was commonplace to hear " I wish we never had adopted you", and "I hate you." Id heard it many times on the way home from church!

As a result, I didn't know what to believe. Nothing I had seen or heard within the church really registered with me. I hated my mother who sang God's praises on Sunday, and told me what a despicable child I was on Monday. I wanted nothing to do with God, especially following my 20th birthday, when my "Christian" girlfriend cheated on me with her eventual husband. Not only did I want nothing to do with God, I wanted to do things to spite him.

So i did. As I was working on my Master's degree, I became a full blown alcoholic. I closed down bars 4 nights a week along with my fellow students. Most of them being female, I wound up going home or taking home one of them 3 nights a week.

I didn't stop there. As I was finishing my Master's, I injured my ankle severely and needed ankle surgery. I was put on heavy painkillers and quickly became addicted. It was commonplace for me to take a handfull of pills and drink myself to blackout several nights a week as I reached my mid-20s. But as i became successful in my career field as a therapist, I felt like nothing was wrong. I was making alot of money running a mental health agency as an alcoholic and a full blown drug addict. The only thing I DIDNT do was street drugs, for which Im thankful. Its probably the only reason Im still alive.

I got a wakeup call when I turned 27, and I got two DWI's within 3 months while driving heavily sedated, both in the morning. I went from the head of the most profitable agency in the county to an unemployed drug addict about to lose my future wife.

At my last straw, I looked back to God. I had gone to church off and on still, almost as an obligation. My dad was still very supportive of me and showed unconditional love, and I saw Jesus through my dad. I had so much head knowledge, but it had never transferred to my heart. And one day, it did. At my lowest point, I made a decision. I was going to allow what I knew in my head transfer into my heart.

I look at my life three years later and Im amazed at the changes. I havent had a drink in 3 years. I no longer am dependent upon drugs to get me through the day. I have a wonderful wife who accepts me despite my past. And It's because, when i turned my life over to Christ, he made the changes possible for me. The proof that I need? The radical change in my life from 3 years ago. So yes, proudly, I can say that Im a Christian. Christ saved my life, and Im forever indebted to him for it. Ive had several lively debates here with others about my point of views on faith, and this is why Im so passionate about what I believe.

My thoughts on Christians are that we are just normal people. The ideas of being "saved by grace" means that nothing I do or say made me a Christian, rather, it was due to Christ's actions. Having accepted Christ doesn't make me "better" then other people. If anything, Im humbled by the fact that Im still accepted as one of God's children due to the life that I used to live. It pisses me off when I see "Christians" callously look down on those who are not. I imagine many did that with me. I look at a Christian as being someone like my dad or my wife, who never gave up on me and showed me unconditional love throughout the things Ive done. Christians who do otherwise, honestly, are quite hypocritical. How would I know? I was one for virtually my entire life.

 

[GangstaPriest15]

Yes 110 percent Christian. Let's get some things straight really quick:

1.) Jesus was a completely real figure. Anybody who argues he isn't would have to say they don't believe things like Abraham Lincoln or George Washington. There is way more evidence supporting Christ than things like that.

2.) Jesus claimed he was God in the flesh. That's a pretty big claim. Jesus was completely sane. However, he statement lacks no authority unless...

3.) Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus claimed he was God, predicted his own death and rose from the dead three days later, defeating death and proving his statements. Theres over 400 accounts of people who saw him walking around. AKA he was legit. Also, If it were a lie it would logically make no sense for the disciple to say that two women found the tomb empty. Women in that time period were given no respect or voice. Why would they claim two women made the statements and expect anybody to believe them?

4.) Because of Christ rising from the dead we know he is perfect and what he says is absolute truth. therefore we must obey his teachings, he says the only way to heaven is by believing in him through faith, then that goes.

5.) for everybody arguing that the Bible is inaccurate because of being passed through generations you're utterly mistaken. First off all the New Testament was compiled from documents that were written around the time of Christ. The OT was in documents too, but I can understand you saying that it was passed down. However, in this time period oral tradtion was different. The priests and scribes and such recorded things perfectly. Studies have shown that this oral type of tradition works perfectly.

The bottom line is this. Anybody who doesn't believe in God essentially doesn't believe in life after death. Nobody has come back from death after a long period to tell us theres an afterlife, (other than Jesus) so any other beliefs in an afterlife would be man made. If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you're saying your life has no point. One day, youre going to die and thats it. It won't matter if you had many happy memories, were a good parent, effected millions of lives, were the worlds richest person, you'l just be dead. The question is are you okay with that? Persoanlly, I want my life to have value and purpose and I believe that God created everybody with a purpose. One day we will day, but we will either be reunited with Christ in Heaven, or have to spend an eternity in Hell.

Yes, for some of you that have said many Christians are hypocrits, and also look down upon others I completely agee with you, but please don't let that effect your opinion of all Christians. Thats life if one guy in baseball did steroids and was good accusing everybody thats good of doing steroids. Don't group everybody together. Most Christians try and talk to people about God not because they think there better but because they are scared for the person's life. Anybody who is unsure look into C.S. Lewis. Lewis was a brilliant man and was a srong atheist. He completely thought there was no God whatsoever. But as he began to research more and more he realized it would take more faith for him to remain an atheist than to accept God. Or, if you like movies watch Lee Strobel's "A Case For Christ." Yet again, a brilliant journalist Strobel didnt believe in God.As he began to gather evidence though he relaised the same thing Lewis did.

 

[Xemmy]

Yes 110 percent Christian. Let's get some things straight really quick:

This should be good.

1.) Jesus was a completely real figure. Anybody who argues he isn't would have to say they don't believe things like Abraham Lincoln or George Washington. There is way more evidence supporting Christ than things like that.

Um. No, I'm pretty damn certain that there's far more evidence supporting the existence of the Presidents of the United States. The earliest documentation of Christ was 40 years after his supposed death. That's hardly proof.

2.) Jesus claimed he was God in the flesh. That's a pretty big claim. Jesus was completely sane. However, he statement lacks no authority unless...

Unless there's no way to prove he was God, sane, or that he actually existed.

3.) Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus claimed he was God, predicted his own death and rose from the dead three days later, defeating death and proving his statements. Theres over 400 accounts of people who saw him walking around. AKA he was legit. Also, If it were a lie it would logically make no sense for the disciple to say that two women found the tomb empty. Women in that time period were given no respect or voice. Why would they claim two women made the statements and expect anybody to believe them?

There is absolutely no documentation from anyone that actually met Christ. None. No one who wrote about Jesus ever met him.

4.) Because of Christ rising from the dead we know he is perfect and what he says is absolute truth. therefore we must obey his teachings, he says the only way to heaven is by believing in him through faith, then that goes.

My grandfather rose from the dead in the emergency room. XD
Anyways, just prove it. Having faith in something for which there is little to no evidence for is silly, and occasionally harmful.

5.) for everybody arguing that the Bible is inaccurate because of being passed through generations you're utterly mistaken. First off all the New Testament was compiled from documents that were written around the time of Christ. The OT was in documents too, but I can understand you saying that it was passed down. However, in this time period oral tradtion was different. The priests and scribes and such recorded things perfectly. Studies have shown that this oral type of tradition works perfectly.

Most scholars generally agree on the dating of many books in the New Testament, except for those some believe to be pseudepigraphical- those thought not to be written by their traditional authors. The Gospel of Mark is dated from as early as the 50s, although most scholars date between the range of 65 and 72. This is half a century after the death of Christ, and the ancient world didn't have the modern conviences we do.
Studies have shown Oral story telling to be quite unreliable, as the stories are changed from generation to generation. Our 5th grade teacher proved that to us by having us sit in a line, whisper something in our ear and have it passed down the line. By the time the message got to the end of the line, it was completely different.

The bottom line is this. Anybody who doesn't believe in God essentially doesn't believe in life after death. Nobody has come back from death after a long period to tell us theres an afterlife, (other than Jesus) so any other beliefs in an afterlife would be man made. If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you're saying your life has no point. One day, youre going to die and thats it. It won't matter if you had many happy memories, were a good parent, effected millions of lives, were the worlds richest person, you'l just be dead. The question is are you okay with that? Persoanlly, I want my life to have value and purpose and I believe that God created everybody with a purpose. One day we will day, but we will either be reunited with Christ in Heaven, or have to spend an eternity in Hell.

Not all atheists believe that the afterlife doesn't exist. It's weird, but true. However that statement is pretty spot on for me.

Please prove that Jesus came back to life. Btw, Other religions have similar claims of return from the death with just as much "proof" as big JC. My life has a point. To live it. To make the most of my short existence. Just because I don't believe in a puppet master, doesn't mean my life is without purpose. And I will be just dead. And that's fine with me. Are you sure you understand what "forever" means? Sure the first MILLION years might be great. What about the million after that. Or the trillion after that? My existence will have value. My life will have purpose. I can live my life with purpose, without the help of some intangible father figure of which there is no proof of existence who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and was used as a primitive way to control societies who couldn't be properly policed.

Yes, for some of you that have said many Christians are hypocrits, and also look down upon others I completely agee with you, but please don't let that effect your opinion of all Christians. Thats life if one guy in baseball did steroids and was good accusing everybody thats good of doing steroids. Don't group everybody together. Most Christians try and talk to people about God not because they think there better but because they are scared for the person's life. Anybody who is unsure look into C.S. Lewis. Lewis was a brilliant man and was a srong atheist. He completely thought there was no God whatsoever. But as he began to research more and more he realized it would take more faith for him to remain an atheist than to accept God. Or, if you like movies watch Lee Strobel's "A Case For Christ." Yet again, a brilliant journalist Strobel didnt believe in God.As he began to gather evidence though he relaised the same thing Lewis did.

Many are. Some are good. LSN80 is a fine example. You on the other hand, are not. You're ignorant of other people's ideologies, and your own. C.S. Lewis did it, so I should jump on the band wagon? It takes the same amount of faith to not believe in God, as not believing in unicorns, fairies, and dragons. All mythical beings that people have claimed to see and hear, but cannot, and will never be proven. And if they are, then so be it. I'll be wrong. But I cannot choose what I believe, and I can't help that fairies, unicorns, and God all seem rather unappealing.

 

[Undying777]

Yes.. I believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is the son of God, He died so that my sins( The only thing that separated me from my creator) would be separated from me, and he defeated death so that my soul may never have to die.

I try to make it to church every Sunday. I try to read my bible every day. I tithe with my church when I can, I try not to have fowl language, I try to love people just as Christ himself loves them. I teach bible study to junior and senior high teenagers almost every Wednesday night. Funny thing is, not one of theses things make me a Christian.

I am a Christian because God spoke to me and I listened. I heard a Pastor give the gospel. I felt a little voice inside my soul tell me that his message is the truth and I believed it. It just resonated with the world and my heart.

I believe we all have the voice inside us. But you probably call it
conscience, a Muslim calls it Allah, a Buddhist calls it Buddha, Hindus call it Lord Krishna or some other deity. I call the voice Jesus because I believe it is. Now, if you have another voice telling you to hurt somebody then thats another separate voice in its self. lol

Why Jesus? Because Jesus message resonates with my soul. Sure, A lot of religious figure heads have come along and said love one another, don't steal, don't covet some bodies wife. and God will love, or you will receive enlightenment. And all of these are good, and if followed, you will have a pretty good life. However, Jesus was the only religious figure head that came along and said Gods love is deeper way deeper. There is nothing we can do with our human hands to earn it. A love that great will never and can never be earned. No amount of prayer, fasting, meditation, money, and all other religious acts will ever earn you Gods love or salvation. Gods love is a free gift, giving because he created you.

As far as who is right, and who is wrong, i find it funny when people say that Christians believe they are right and the other religions are wrong. News flash, every religion believes all other religions are wrong besides their own. lol But I believe no matter who you are, we are all on the search for the truth. This is why so many have posted in this thread. Its the reason why I search my bible daily. God tells us to test the scriptures don't just follow blindly. Buddha told his followers that his path to enlightenment might not be the path everyone will take.

I would be a lier If I said I don't doubt my faith. I just recently took a comparative religion philosophy course. There where many times during the course when I thought that maybe I am wrong. But the more and more I search for the truth,( Read doctrine from other religions) the closer it would bring me back to my Christian faith.

 

[ABMorales787]

All the negativity in the Cigar Lounge basically drove me off it, but I'll give it a last shot. I don't plan on going into detail, just say what's on my mind.

I am Christian but then again not a regular one. I don't go to church. I always analyze what I'm told and from there I decide what to believe and what not to believe. Sometimes, church people can be very manipulative. It's been seen over and over again. And it just gives good people who happen to also be Christians a bad name. I do what I believe is right and it happens to concur with what God says is right. It's not about being dismissive of what's bad. It's about supporting the good and helping heal the bad.

While I'm at it, I see lots of nay-sayers here. I have no problem with what they say, but let me ask, is it wrong to have something to live for? Christians look forth to God the same way a wrestling fan looks forth to WWE. I know some Christians go overboard, but for those who don't, is it wrong to have something to live for?

 

[People's Champ]

2.) Jesus claimed he was God in the flesh. That's a pretty big claim. Jesus was completely sane. However, he statement lacks no authority unless...

3.) Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus claimed he was God, predicted his own death and rose from the dead three days later, defeating death and proving his statements. Theres over 400 accounts of people who saw him walking around. AKA he was legit. Also, If it were a lie it would logically make no sense for the disciple to say that two women found the tomb empty. Women in that time period were given no respect or voice. Why would they claim two women made the statements and expect anybody to believe them?

Where in the Bible can you show me where Jesus claimed he was God. Never had he made that rediculous statement. Your proof is that he ressurected himself? There is so much wrong with what you're saying.

Jesus never claimed to be God.

The Father is greater than I am.

Why would Jesus talk about the Father if he was the Father. How about another one?

Let, not my will, but yours take place

Again, if he is God, who exactly would he be talking about? Do some studying of the Bible first before making such claims. I could give out more scriptures to show this, but again, there was never such a claim made by Jesus. He knew he was the Son of God and knew what his purpose was here on Earth.

The bottom line is this. Anybody who doesn't believe in God essentially doesn't believe in life after death. Nobody has come back from death after a long period to tell us theres an afterlife, (other than Jesus) so any other beliefs in an afterlife would be man made. If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you're saying your life has no point. One day, youre going to die and thats it. It won't matter if you had many happy memories, were a good parent, effected millions of lives, were the worlds richest person, you'l just be dead. The question is are you okay with that? Persoanlly, I want my life to have value and purpose and I believe that God created everybody with a purpose. One day we will day, but we will either be reunited with Christ in Heaven, or have to spend an eternity in Hell.

I'm not sure where this idea of Hell comes from. Certainly not the Bible. In fact, nowhere does the Bible say we are all going to Heaven. Only a certain number of people are going.

And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father on their foreheads.

Study of the Bible helps us see that on 144,000 go to heaven and they will rule as Kings and Priests with Jesus in God's Kingdom.

Now, let's look at it this way. You obviously believe in Jesus. So then you believe in the account of Jesus resurrecting his friend Lazarus. Why would Jesus resurrect his friend if he was in Heaven? Why bring him back to Earth to live life as an imperfect human just so he can die again? Why did Lazarus make no mention of being in Heaven or Hell?

I'm not trying to bash on you or anything like that. Taking an interest in the Bible and following it is a good thing. But with more study, you will be able to understand things more clearly, such as who Jesus really is.

 

[Aeon Mathix]

I don't like labeling myself a christian, even though I believe in god with all my heart. I do not knock anyone's beliefs as long as they don't knock mine. Even then I just laugh them off. Everything in life comes down to faith and belief. True or untrue, praying to the big man upstairs gets me through my trouble and helps me. I know a lot of christians who are some of the nicest people I've ever meet and actually know what god is really about.

Thennnn there are the other types of christians who think its alright to just say..go to church one day a week and make themselves feel good about it without knowing what believing or what faith really means. Some christians ive known just go because they feel that they have to not because they want to. I make mistakes every day, ive lied, cheated, stolen. Name the sin, ive done it guarantee'd. I understand though that if you admit to god that you screwed up than he will forgive you because you are admitting the error of your ways. Some people just think oh wow i did something bad but its ok god will let it slide, and then they take advantage of that. I don't listen to christians who say "you do this, you do that your going to hell, Im so much better than you". Its not true, you arent any better than me and im not any better than you. We are perfect in god's eyes but not in each others. Just a reminder not ALL christians are like this, just certain ones I have met, but in short answer, even if I am Christian by traditional standards, I do not like labeling myself as one. My religion is that I love god and that is as simple as that.

 

[Gregor_Samsa]

I gave the best response to this question and everyone ignored it. Fine, I'll answer it like a moron so it fits in with the rest of the thread.

No I'm not a Christian because a flying spaghetti monster makes more sense than an invisible man in the sky whose hippie son wanted us to drive hybrids.

Or

Yes I am a Christian because the Bible is all the proof I need that there is a God who had a son who failed at carpentry so he told stories and got nailed to some wood (ironic since he was a failed carpenter) and died for my sins.

There, both are moronic answers, please, enjoy.

Anyone care to read a thoughtful post on this subject, check out my first submission on the second page of the thread.

 

[LSN80]

To answer the question quickly, no I am not a Christian.

However this topic does intrigue me and I would like to delve a little deeper into it. First of all as LigerBomb pointed out one does not have to be a Christian to be a follower of God. Whose God are we speaking of? And by using the word God in singular form we are only considering the monotheistic, Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. .

I think Disturbed was pretty darn clear my friend when he defined what a Christian is. And Liger is right, there are many religions in the world that have nothing to do with Christianity, but still preach about a God.

I once heard a stand-up comedian, believe it or not, say that what the country needs right now is God. The audience applauded. I wanted to ask him, which God? Or better yet, whose God? His answer might have been that we just need more spirituality in general and it didn't matter what God you chose just that you chose God. I would have said "fair enough."

I would have loved to have been there for that one. I think what this country, or any country, needs more of, is people who live their lives based upon Christs teachings. They dont have to be Christians to do so. Christ was a great example of how to live to the believer and non believer alike.

I realized that they were just as bad as the evangelicals who want to put dents in our 1st amendment rights. I encountered some folks who wanted to take the "crutch" away from people who frankly needed that crutch to move forward in life. If someone is suffering from cancer and has nowhere to turn for hope or guidance except religion, these people wanted to tell them they were stupid for doing so. It was a very Nietzschean approach to human relations.

Not all "Evangelicals" you speak of want to put a dent in First Amendment Rights. Thats a terribly blanket statement. I consider myself to be an Evangelical Christian, yet I could care less about religion and politics. Whats most important to me is the impact I have on others based upon my walk with Christ. I have no hidden agenda.

This is where I would disagree with The Hamler, who wrote "I don't believe any christian really believes all the stuff they think they believe. Deep down, they all know, what they believe in, is most likely not true." I think for the most part honest Christians do believe in the tenets of their particular sect of Christianity. Without an amount of doubt though one would not have faith, they would have certainty. So I believe that a level of skepticism is present even in the most religious of human beings.

Sure, most of us are skeptics who question what we hear. Thats a good thing. But some people aren't skeptics. Deep down, I know exactly what I believe in. Ill debate it too, even though I wont be a jerk about it. But I have no skepticism whatsoever about what I believe.

Also, Hamler, you stated something that many people, including myself (in the past) have used ad nauseam when debating religion. You wrote "Religion is the cause of a lot of problems not only in the United States, but the World aswell." It may be a matter of semantics but I would argue that Religion has done absolutely no harm in the world. I explain by stating that to blame religion is to blame an abstract idea which takes the onus off the person committing unsaid atrocious act.

He's right. Have you ever heard of the Crusades? How about the current incarnation of Islam? We have Christians to this day that blow up abortion clinics. While religion, and Christianity specifically for me, has done alot of good in this world, Id be ignorant to blindly ignore the attrocities of past and present that some religion presents.

Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett have proposed an idea that I still find myself contemplating and I would welcome anyone's thoughts on this issue. They describe religion as a "meme" or a set of cultural ideas passed from generation to generation. However Dennett in his book "Breaking the Spell" describes it more like a living virus; that certain people have no choice but to be infected with the ideas passed down from their ancestors. I cannot disprove this theory. It does throw a wrench in my argument that every human being has a choice of whether or not to commit acts in the name of religion. Religion as a choice or religion as a virus?

Religion is a choice, for the most part. In the United States, we have the right to that choice. Even in countries where that choice isnt overt(like ones that practice extreme Islam), people still make the choice to believe what they do at the end. Its called free will. It really is a great thing.

If Christianity is a "crutch" for people what is wrong with that? I would argue that non-belief is the same sort of self-validating "crutch." Neither one of them is wrong. We all grasp onto ideas to help us move forward in life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Christianity or any other religion. Reiterating my point, the onus is on the self, not the theory.

A crutch is a bad thing, because we never learn to walk on our own. As Ive stated, I am a Christian, and it drives the decisions I make and who I am today. But religion as a crutch is like a junkie looking for his next fix: he's only good until it wears off. Id argue any type of long term crutch is a bad thing, but thats for another thread honestly. Christianity and religion provide a great source of comfort, support, and ideals to live by. Heck, its saved my life. But its also taught me how to be a Christian without needing to fall back upon religion for every decision I make. Im not being rude or ignorant here man, just stating what I believe to be fact. You wanted your thread commented on, you got your wish. Btw, it doesnt exactly behoove you to call people morons for putting out what they do or do not believe, especially people like Xemnas, Mathix, and PC who are very passionate about the subject. The topic wasnt necessarily a religious debate, it was simply asking if you were a Christian or not. How each person chooses to answer it is their choice, just like.....wait for it..... the ability to choose your religious belief!

 

[The Doctor]

I am a Christian, in the most basic sense of the word - I believe in the higher power God and that Jesus was His son, and they had some pretty cool teachings that people should follow, like the one about loving everyone no matter their race, creed, or sexual orientation. I'm not here to preach about right or wrong, I'm not here to tell people what to believe, I'm here to love people and be a decent human being.

Additionally, the thought of a higher power and an afterlife is pretty comforting, and if I'm wrong, it's not like it's a big deal. Either I'm worshiping the wrong God, or there's Nothing after death. I figure the higher power will see that I tried to be a good guy all my life and will be understanding, and if there's Nothing then it's not like I made some grave error or anything. It won't matter, because I won't exist anymore.

As for my thoughts - I believe many Christians are pretty hypocritical and I can't blame society for feeling the way they do (ie: Christians are hypocrites who don't practice what they preach). But just as not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church. You get good and bad in every segment of humanity. It's just how it is.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

I am an agnostic atheist. This means that I lack a believe in a deity, but do not claim to have knowledge of the existence or non-existence of one. I regularly get into religious discussions with people who hold illogical and irrational beliefs, however, I can understand why someone would hold such a belief.

Thinking about a plane of existence outside of the system of logic and mathematics is literally impossible to imagine. Our minds aren't wired to comprehend that dimension of physics, the same way our eyes physically can't see beyond the 3rd dimension. So we don't really have a choice but to have a system of beliefs that don't rely on the scientific process of observation and experimentation.

However, there is not one person who has undeniable knowledge of an existence of a deity that can be proven to another human being. For that reason, along with the fact that a deity hasn't shown him/her/itself to me, prevents me from adopting a system of beliefs that worships a God that has no evidence of even existing.

 

[Gregor_Samsa]

I am not at all certain about how to quote passages from a post and respond to them in kind so I will just select some of your comments to address and put them in italics. But first let me say thank you for responding to my post, LSN!

I think Disturbed was pretty darn clear my friend when he defined what a Christian is.

He may have been but, respectfully, I don't care what his definition of a Christian is and nor should anyone else replying to this thread. We all, believers or not, have our own perceptions of what a Christian is or should be and I feel it would benefit those who respond to provide their own personal definition when answering the question posed by the OP.

I would have loved to have been there for that one. I think what this country, or any country, needs more of, is people who live their lives based upon Christs teachings.

I may very well agree with you on this point. However, I ,and perhaps yourself, have no hope whatsoever that this country will ever adopt any such philosophies. For instance in Mark 10:25 Jesus famously says "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." Jesus' thoughts regarding wealth are echoed in Matthew 6:19 "do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth," Matthew 6:24 "You cannot serve both God and Money," and most notably in Mark 10:21 when asked by a man what he must do to inherit eternal life Jesus responds "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor..." These passages hearken back to a thread I responded to once asking whether Jesus was a Socialist. I don't know. But it appears his teachings would interfere with our "American Dream" and be emphatically rejected by both believers and non-believers alike.

Not all "Evangelicals" you speak of want to put a dent in First Amendment Rights. Thats a terribly blanket statement.

I did not mean to imply that all Evangelicals wish to infringe on first amendment rights, in fact, I did not include all Evangelicals in my statement. You quoted me as saying "I realized that they were just as bad as the evangelicals who want to put dents in our 1st amendment rights." I intended my use of the word "The" to section off the group to which I was referring. I should probably have written "I realized they were just as bad as certain groups of Evangelicals who want to put dents in our 1st amendment rights." Apologies for any miscommunication.

Sure, most of us are skeptics who question what we hear. Thats a good thing. But some people aren't skeptics. Deep down, I know exactly what I believe in. Ill debate it too, even though I wont be a jerk about it. But I have no skepticism whatsoever about what I believe.

Fair Enough.

He's right. Have you ever heard of the Crusades? How about the current incarnation of Islam? We have Christians to this day that blow up abortion clinics. While religion, and Christianity specifically for me, has done alot of good in this world, Id be ignorant to blindly ignore the attrocities of past and present that some religion presents.


I disagree. Religion did not commit these acts, people did. To blame religion is to take the onus off of the human perpetrators and place it on an idea. If you believe in the concept of free will, which it seems you do, then you might agree that people who commit heinous acts in the name of religion have a choice, to kill or not to kill, to explode or not to explode. I would rewrite your last sentence as "I'd be ignorant to blindly ignore the atrocities of the past and present that some religious people present."

Religion is a choice, for the most part. In the United States, we have the right to that choice. Even in countries where that choice isnt overt(like ones that practice extreme Islam), people still make the choice to believe what they do at the end. Its called free will. It really is a great thing.

Well I should have read further instead of addressing your post one bullet point at a time! I would argue that this contradicts your previous statement. I will add that it is interesting to read Dennett's book, whether you agree with him or not, and contemplate the idea of religion being an actual living, mutating thing. It's very science fictiony.

A crutch is a bad thing, because we never learn to walk on our own. As Ive stated, I am a Christian, and it drives the decisions I make and who I am today. But religion as a crutch is like a junkie looking for his next fix: he's only good until it wears off. Id argue any type of long term crutch is a bad thing, but thats for another thread honestly. Christianity and religion provide a great source of comfort, support, and ideals to live by. Heck, its saved my life. But its also taught me how to be a Christian without needing to fall back upon religion for every decision I make. Im not being rude or ignorant here man, just stating what I believe to be fact. You wanted your thread commented on, you got your wish. Btw, it doesnt exactly behoove you to call people morons for putting out what they do or do not believe, especially people like Xemnas, Mathix, and PC who are very passionate about the subject. The topic wasnt necessarily a religious debate, it was simply asking if you were a Christian or not. How each person chooses to answer it is their choice, just like.....wait for it..... the ability to choose your religious belief!

Would you say a crutch is a bad thing for a man with a broken ankle? Is an emotional crutch a bad thing for a man with a broken heart?
You have crutches in your life and your faith is certainly one of them. We all have things we look to for propping up when life has gotten us down. One crutch we all appear to share is professional wrestling. If life sucks, your job sucks, your family sucks but you can't wait for Monday Nights because it's two hours of entertainment that boosts your spirits then you have a crutch. Of course this is my definition of a crutch, if anyone has a different definition I would enjoy reading it.
Long term crutches are great because they create stability in one's life. A constant bright spot in one's life certainly improves mental well-being.
You admit that Christianity provides "a great source of comfort, support, and ideals to live by." Right, I agree, it's a crutch. I just don't think crutches are a bad thing. After all, it saved your life.
You write that "it's taught me how to be a Christian without needing to fall back upon religion for every decision I make." However a few sentences prior you say that "As I have stated, I am a Christian, and it drives the decisions I make and who I am today." I understand what you mean and empathize completely, but you seem to contradict yourself here.
Finally I called people morons to get noticed and thankfully it worked. I have no ill will toward anyone on this message board. It's just a message board and I don't know any one of you personally. Any thread however is the foundation for a debate and this one I find very interesting. Cheers!

 

[LSN80]

I am not at all certain about how to quote passages from a post and respond to them in kind so I will just select some of your comments to address and put them in italics. But first let me say thank you for responding to my post, LSN!

Youre welcome chief. Allow me to address yours once again, if I may?

He may have been but, respectfully, I don't care what his definition of a Christian is and nor should anyone else replying to this thread. We all, believers or not, have our own perceptions of what a Christian is or should be and I feel it would benefit those who respond to provide their own personal definition when answering the question posed by the OP.

He called a Christian a "follower of Christ" You can look up what your definition of what a "Christian" is meant to be in this culture, or you can come to one on your one. Thats what I enjoy so much about these threads.
They often allow for those wonderful interpretations that allow us to have different views and beliefs. So to surmise, I agree here. Having your own definition is not only paramount to having th9is discussion, but also in how one defines their life, especially if they claim to be a Christian.

As for whether or not you care about his definition of a "Christian" is, he started the thread, so Id say his definition is very important in relation to this thread, my friend.

I may very well agree with you on this point. However, I ,and perhaps yourself, have no hope whatsoever that this country will ever adopt any such philosophies. For instance in Mark 10:25 Jesus famously says "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." Jesus' thoughts regarding wealth are echoed in Matthew 6:19 "do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth," Matthew 6:24 "You cannot serve both God and Money," and most notably in Mark 10:21 when asked by a man what he must do to inherit eternal life Jesus responds "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor..." These passages hearken back to a thread I responded to once asking whether Jesus was a Socialist. I don't know. But it appears his teachings would interfere with our "American Dream" and be emphatically rejected by both believers and non-believers alike.

Honestly, most of this is for another thread, but Ill humor you here. The teachings of Jesus, which I should have been more specific to, is to how Jesus taught people to relate to others. John 13:34-35 " And this new commandment I give to you, Love Your neigbor as yourself. There is no greater commandment then this.

Or Matthew 5:39 " Do not resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on the cheek, turn the other one also."

Thats the Jesus that Im talking about that would be a great role model for people. And Jesus ideal in the passages you were discussing were to determine how serious people were about following him: he had a limited time on earth(33 years)and wanted only the most devout followers to spread his message.

I did not mean to imply that all Evangelicals wish to infringe on first amendment rights, in fact, I did not include all Evangelicals in my statement. You quoted me as saying "I realized that they were just as bad as the evangelicals who want to put dents in our 1st amendment rights." I intended my use of the word "The" to section off the group to which I was referring. I should probably have written "I realized they were just as bad as certain groups of Evangelicals who want to put dents in our 1st amendment rights." Apologies for any miscommunication.

Apology accepted. I still think this is more a political argument then a religious one, but to each their own.

I disagree. Religion did not commit these acts, people did. To blame religion is to take the onus off of the human perpetrators and place it on an idea. If you believe in the concept of free will, which it seems you do, then you might agree that people who commit heinous acts in the name of religion have a choice, to kill or not to kill, to explode or not to explode. I would rewrite your last sentence as "I'd be ignorant to blindly ignore the atrocities of the past and present that some religious people present."

Nah, because some religious passages directly command their followers to commit such attrocities. The Old Testament(which Jesus abolished, of his own admission) commanded people to be put to death for theft, infedility, disobedience to parents, etc. And then there's the Koran, which to this day allows for women to be beaten by their husbands and promises death for disobedience to any of their tenants. I dont blame religion alone, I believe its a combination of both religion and a flawed society(and people)!

Well I should have read further instead of addressing your post one bullet point at a time! I would argue that this contradicts your previous statement. I will add that it is interesting to read Dennett's book, whether you agree with him or not, and contemplate the idea of religion being an actual living, mutating thing. It's very science fictiony.

Religion is a choice. Whether it was forced down our throats by our parents or we stumbled upon it on our own, its a choice we make. Free will. I wasn't contradicting myself at all. And Ill pass on the book, science fictions not my thing.

A crutch is a bad thing, because we never learn to walk on our own. As Ive stated, I am a Christian, and it drives the decisions I make and who I am today. But religion as a crutch is like a junkie looking for his next fix: he's only good until it wears off. Id argue any type of long term crutch is a bad thing, but thats for another thread honestly. Christianity and religion provide a great source of comfort, support, and ideals to live by. Heck, its saved my life. But its also taught me how to be a Christian without needing to fall back upon religion for every decision I make. Im not being rude or ignorant here man, just stating what I believe to be fact. You wanted your thread commented on, you got your wish. Btw, it doesnt exactly behoove you to call people morons for putting out what they do or do not believe, especially people like Xemnas, Mathix, and PC who are very passionate about the subject. The topic wasnt necessarily a religious debate, it was simply asking if you were a Christian or not. How each person chooses to answer it is their choice, just like.....wait for it..... the ability to choose your religious belief!

Would you say a crutch is a bad thing for a man with a broken ankle? Is an emotional crutch a bad thing for a man with a broken heart?

I think you have me all wrong here, my friend. Not at all. But if one relies on those crutches FOREVER and doesnt learn how to independently get about(or think in this case), then yes, its a bad thing. The longer you use a crutch, the longer you become dependant on it. If you read my first post, Im an unashamed recovering drug addict. The longer I was on drugs, the more I needed. It was pain medicine. Would u argue that was a good thing?

You have crutches in your life and your faith is certainly one of them. We all have things we look to for propping up when life has gotten us down. One crutch we all appear to share is professional wrestling. If life sucks, your job sucks, your family sucks but you can't wait for Monday Nights because it's two hours of entertainment that boosts your spirits then you have a crutch. Of course this is my definition of a crutch, if anyone has a different definition I would enjoy reading it.

Religion isnt a crutch to me, thats the thing. My faith and belief in Chrust is one of freedom, and at times, reliance. But I also have strength, through Christ, to stand on my own. I dont consider myself to be religious whatsoever. I do have faith and use it to guide my life, but I dont view it as a crutch.

Long term crutches are great because they create stability in one's life. A constant bright spot in one's life certainly improves mental well-being.
You admit that Christianity provides "a great source of comfort, support, and ideals to live by." Right, I agree, it's a crutch. I just don't think crutches are a bad thing. After all, it saved your life.

Long term crutches are a TERRIBLE thing. They create dependency rather then independence. They create the blind following the blind rather then independent thinking. I am comforted by Christianity, and my faith. But its certainly not a crutch. It allows me the freedom to live my life, which crutches dont do. Jesus said he "Came to set the captives free", not provide crutches for them. I guess our definition of a crutch differs, and thats ok.

You write that "it's taught me how to be a Christian without needing to fall back upon religion for every decision I make." However a few sentences prior you say that "As I have stated, I am a Christian, and it drives the decisions I make and who I am today." I understand what you mean and empathize completely, but you seem to contradict yourself here.

No, not at all. You can have your life shaped by something, and as a result, progress as a person. At times, I do rely on my faith to make decisions. The words I use toward my wife. My morals. The way I treat others. But I also use common sense and logical thinking that I dont give two seconds of thought toward "What would Jesus Do?" in my day to day life.

Finally I called people morons to get noticed and thankfully it worked. I have no ill will toward anyone on this message board. It's just a message board and I don't know any one of you personally. Any thread however is the foundation for a debate and this one I find very interesting. Cheers!

Well, I dont agree with the way you choose to get noticed, but thats just me. I have gotten to know people personally through these boards and consider them my friends, despite the fact that we hold entirely different life views. Id focus on arguing the merits of your thread and what you belief to get noticed rather then insulting others. And I jumped in because several of those "morons" are people I consider friends.

 

[Gregor_Samsa]

Thank you for responding. Here come more italics!

As for whether or not you care about his definition of a "Christian" is, he started the thread, so Id say his definition is very important in relation to this thread, my friend.

He started the thread sure, but by posing a question he calls other people to contribute their opinion. So when presenting their opinion they should not care at all what his definition of a Christian is unless they choose to debate it. It’s not disrespectful, it’s unnecessary.

Honestly, most of this is for another thread, but Ill humor you here. The teachings of Jesus, which I should have been more specific to, is to how Jesus taught people to relate to others. John 13:34-35 " And this new commandment I give to you, Love Your neigbor as yourself. There is no greater commandment then this.

Or Matthew 5:39 " Do not resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on the cheek, turn the other one also."

Thats the Jesus that Im talking about that would be a great role model for people. And Jesus ideal in the passages you were discussing were to determine how serious people were about following him: he had a limited time on earth(33 years)and wanted only the most devout followers to spread his message.

I feel the subject matter I discussed fits perfectly within this thread. We are talking about the teachings of Christ and his opinions and thoughts certainly affected the message he spread.
As for his advice on human interaction, it’s a great thought, very much like the Stoics, but for most people and especially the American populace, it’s impossible to put into action. If we all thought in such a way, we would not have responded to the attacks on Pearl Harbor or the World Trade Center. Turn the other cheek is quaint but hardly rational.
We’re picking and choosing which aspects of Christ’s message to utilize, which I find completely reasonable.

Nah, because some religious passages directly command their followers to commit such attrocities. The Old Testament(which Jesus abolished, of his own admission) commanded people to be put to death for theft, infedility, disobedience to parents, etc. And then there's the Koran, which to this day allows for women to be beaten by their husbands and promises death for disobedience to any of their tenants. I dont blame religion alone, I believe its a combination of both religion and a flawed society(and people)!

Well certainly belief as to whether a divine being dictated religious texts or the words came from the mind of man, is a factor in this discussion. If we agree that both the stories and ideas taught in the Bible and the Qur’an were created by man than there is no argument, Religion is certainly not to blame as it is an invention of man. Like the cliché guns don’t kill people, people do.
However if we believe that the Bible and Qur’an are messages of divinity then I still feel you have no argument. So the texts encourage heinous acts? It doesn’t mean one has to abide by them. I say this, knowing now, that you are a believer in free will. The onus is still on the individual not the abstract idea. I feel that you have contradicting arguments on this issue.
My point can be countered of course if you chose to believe, as Daniel Dennett proposes, that religion is a meme; an actual living, ever changing thing that infiltrates the minds of people, like a parasite. Neither the Dennett book, nor the Dawkins books are science fiction. Dennett is a philosopher and Dawkins is a biologist. I merely observed that the idea of religion being a living parasitic mutation was like something from a science fiction story.

I think you have me all wrong here, my friend. Not at all. But if one relies on those crutches FOREVER and doesnt learn how to independently get about(or think in this case), then yes, its a bad thing. The longer you use a crutch, the longer you become dependant on it. If you read my first post, Im an unashamed recovering drug addict. The longer I was on drugs, the more I needed. It was pain medicine. Would u argue that was a good thing?

I believe there are necessary crutches and ephemeral crutches. I hate to stretch this analogy further but it works so well. Instead of a broken ankle, say the man has a permanently debilitating injury to his leg. Semantics aside, a crutch becomes necessary. I feel religion is the same for some people. An alcoholic will always be an alcoholic whether or not they are currently consuming the beverage. For some, religion becomes their permanent crutch to keep healthy. If turning to Christianity saved your life then you went from one crutch to another. It is not, at all, a bad thing.

Religion isnt a crutch to me, thats the thing. My faith and belief in Chrust is one of freedom, and at times, reliance. But I also have strength, through Christ, to stand on my own. I dont consider myself to be religious whatsoever. I do have faith and use it to guide my life, but I dont view it as a crutch.

You write that your belief is one of freedom, and at time, reliance, I ask how is that not a crutch? To rely on something to sustain your well-being is to have a crutch. “I have strength, through Christ, to stand on my own.” Well if you’re doing it through Christ then you aren’t standing on your own. It’s like that poster with the footprints on the beach. I am resigning to the notion that we will not come to an agreement on this issue and I’m getting sick of typing the word “crutch.” Well-argued though. Kudos.

No, not at all. You can have your life shaped by something, and as a result, progress as a person. At times, I do rely on my faith to make decisions. The words I use toward my wife. My morals. The way I treat others. But I also use common sense and logical thinking that I dont give two seconds of thought toward "What would Jesus Do?" in my day to day life.

This was explained much better than in your previous post. I have no doubt this is what you meant to say, but your prose did lead to a contradiction. You have cleared that up now. Well done.


Well, I dont agree with the way you choose to get noticed, but thats just me. I have gotten to know people personally through these boards and consider them my friends, despite the fact that we hold entirely different life views. Id focus on arguing the merits of your thread and what you belief to get noticed rather then insulting others. And I jumped in because several of those "morons" are people I consider friends.

I did, I think, put forth a very thoughtful and well written post that I was hoping someone would notice, however it was ignored. I made some insincere comments that I will not apologize for because it brought me a good debate.

 

[LilacFray]

Wow! This is one awesome thread.
I'm not a Christian, I'm a Buddhist.
I've got nothing against Christians.
I'm not meaning to offend anyone out there but when it comes to this religion topic, most ( not all ) of them should try to be a little broad minded.
I believe in rebirth, so no afterlife for me.
I've got a doubt. If god created us, why are there so many disabled people?
What did they do? Surely there should be a reason..
And if he created us, Why were we ( people like me and a few others who have replied in this thread ) created to follow a different religion?
I'm confused.. Are we like some dolls in a play house or something..?
Because we wouldn't follow the bible/Christ, and we'd be sinners.
Didn't have much of a choice there, did we?
and Evolution. It's just really unfair that in my school, the Biology or just say all the Science teachers are Christians and guess what they say before starting the lesson Evolution? That there is no such thing and that we all know god created us and everything around us.
How frustrating.

 

[Adiaphora]

I was say, in short, that I am undecided. I come from a Christian religion, but have been turned off by the hypocrisy, revisionist history, and pure unbelievability of some of the stories in religious text. I didn't come from a religion traditionally viewed by the masses as Christian, but they believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, so I am lumping it there.

I view the Bible and other religious text like it as allegories and stories to persuade believers. I do not believe in the historical authenticity of any such stories. I believe in Jesus Christ, but not as the bible portrays him. I believe his stories have been embellished and that he was just a good man, maybe even a good prophet, if I am to take it that far.

I don't want to get too far into it, because my believes are a mix of many religions I have come in contact with and chaotic and confusing when attempting to explain them.

 

[Calderownz]

NO, I am not a Christian. My thoughts? Generally speaking, the religion has some very decent people involved with it. However, it also has it's extremists of sorts and some highly obnoxious people.

Still, the same can be said about most groups. However, I do see that some religious people seem to hold it against you when you're not religious, so I do find that to be rather bothersome.

Nonetheless, like most groups, it has it's ups and downs, so to speak.

 

[Strong Style X]

I don't see the point in being Christian, so no I am not. Most extremist Christians will say "you'll go to hell" if I don't believe their ways but there are so many religions in the world with zero proof or facts behind them that all say "if you don't believe in this singular idea and this one only you will suffer for eternity". The chances of me suffering is one God greater than any other religious person, if it's true. I think it's time we stop listening to ancient texts that sound like fairytales and start living a little more logically. Religion does give people hope, sure. But it also kills a lot of people. That goes for all groups and not just Christianity.

I know science isn't 100% fact or truth because it's all built upon study done backed up by SCIENTIFIC method, which is mostly theories and research based off those theories. However, scientific research is more reasonable to me than text on a page. Anything in text should be taken with a grain of salt. Science and logic is backed up by evidence. Even if the evidence could possibly be wrong; it's still more logical and evidential than anything a religion has ever come up with IMHO.

I have nothing against religious people, I just choose not to live my life in an extremist/conformist sort of way. I just like to be me and act how I think I should.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I have been christened, but I am undecided on a God.

I personally believe religion is the cause of many of the worlds problems, and people will preach that their religions holy book contains meanings that are not there. The bible/Koran etc can be interpreted in many ways, and lines from them will be used by fanatics to justify their hateful actions.

"It says in the Koran that we should do X on such a date"... no it doesnt, you are just using it to try and convince people to act on your beliefs.

I occasionally pray, but only because if there is the slightest chance it will help me then its worth doing, and I follow the rules of the country...which are mostly similar to the rules preached in the Bible- do not murder, do not steal etc.

I 100% believe you can be a good person and human being without religion. Yes, religion can give some people something to believe in and help them live their life according to God's teachings, but the amount of bullshit and problems religion can cause makes it entirely unappealing to me.

Not being allowed to use contraception if you are a Catholic, women having to cover up in other religions etc etc, all aload of shit to me. I dont buy it, never have and never will.

I dont mean to be offensive to anybody, but I think religion is used as a catalyst in so many wars and conflicts, as well as creating differences between people that I am not interested in becoming involved in it. I would treat a Christian and a Muslim and a Jew all the same, their religion doesnt matter to me, but their different beliefs could cause some people to avoid them, treat them badly, hate them etc....why?

All completely unneccesary in my eyes, religion causes too many issues. Why cant we all love each other for who we are, and be good people without having to follow restrictive rules and teachings

 

[The Rob]

I believe there is a God. I believe he pre-determines how things happen in both my life and everyone elses. But I also don't like being restricted as to what I do in my life because of Christianity. That's not a dig at anyone who is Christian at all, but for me, I'd rather believe in God in my own way. If I need guidance, I will pray to myself in my head. But I don't go to church and I doubt I will.

The thing is I also believe in Karma. But only in a really basic way because I don't really understand anything but the basic idea of what it is. I don't know whether it's apart of Christianity or whether it is it's own form of believe.