Abortion

[jmt225]

I'm all for abortion. I do think young women should be more responsible during sex and make sure they use every little piece of protection that is out there to make sure they don't become pregnant if they do not want to have a baby, but I can also understand that accidents do happen, and I'd much rather a young woman who is not ready to have a baby and doesn't have a supporting man in her life to help her out, get rid of the baby instead of bringing an innocent human being into this World who won’t have the love and support he or she needs to have a good childhood.

To you guys who are against abortion, put yourself in a female's shoes. Imagine going through nine months of hell and then having to go through one of the most painful things one can experience to only deliver an accident; something you never wanted. Can you really blame a young woman to not go through such an experience? I can only imagine how terrifying that must be, and it's why I can't judge the ladies in this World who choose to get rid of the baby instead of bringing it into their life.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Ok, so what exactly is considered alive to you Xfear?? somthing that is breathing, eating, and growing isnt alive??? I could give a fuck what science says. Everyone can go ahead and use that to clear their conscience though I guess.

A fetus isn't alive by medical/scientific terms. The theory of life beginning at conception is a religious view. Nothing more.

1.the killing of a human being characterized by deliberation or premeditation. Sounds like an abortion to me. You are ignorant for acting like I dont understand rape exists. No shit.

Oh yes, I'm in ignorant one. I wasn't the one that claimed women should be forced into a pregnancy because she obviously always consents to sex.

Its still not your life.

Oh really? I believe it's my life that you're trying to mess up by forcing me to have a child.

Its the now created life, that has no voice. whether it was brought by rape or not, it should be YOUR choice to say if that person wouldnt want to be alive??

If I'm the one that has to keep it in my uterus, then yes, it is completely my choice to decide whether something should have a 'chance at life'.

I belive in most cases they would. Stop being so selfish as speaking in a "woe is me" tyoe manner, becuase thats what it is. You keep talking about having to deal with a pregnancy....well whats 9 months of a pregnancy compared to stopping an entire life from happening??

Now this is just completely disrespectful and ignorant. What's 9 months of pregnancy? Read up on it. And, honestly, says the guy who will never have to face being pregnant for 9 months.

Erm, consenting to sex is consenting to a pregnancy EVERY time you do it, becuase thats physiologically what sex EXISTS for. iTs for reproduction, so therefore, when you have sex, you are engaging in the act of reproduction.

Sex isn't ONLY for reproduction. And if you think that, make sure you don't have sex until you want a family. And, should married couples who don't want children not have sex?
It's people who think like this, who then campaign for 'abstinence only' education, who cause there to be as many abortions as there is. Because people are going to have sex. No doubt about it.

Consenting to sex, and consenting to pregnancy are completely different. Yes, everyone knows there's a slight chance of pregnancy during sex, but what about birth control failures? Just because I don't want a child ever, doesn't mean I shouldn't have sex.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

oK, so sex isnt intended by nature to create children is what your telling me? Condoms were created by humans. Sex, in its very nature, is intended for reproduction.

Your right, its no my decision, but it shouldnt be anyones besides the persons life that will not exist. Say I sucede to you that since science says a fetus isnt a human (although something that is breathing, eating, growing, and moving certainley seems like a living thing to me)....so stopping a life from existing isnt murder, regardless if the life has yet to begin?? If you stop a life from being in existance, you didnt kill it??

So I guess all those "sceintists" opinions are better than mine, becuase they are scientists, and they know science, and they are scientists and stuff. Just becuase a scientist says it, doesnt make it true. If my mother got an abortion, I wouldnt be typing this to you right now, thus my life wouldve never happened. So what, exactly, would that be classified as in your opinion?

Exactly.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

A fetus isn't alive by medical/scientific terms. The theory of life beginning at conception is a religious view. Nothing more.

Yes, I forgot that becuase a sceintist says something its the end all be all and its right. Like I said, if it makes you feel better to think that, then thats fine. Something that grows, breaths, eats, and moves sounds like a living thing to me.


Damn Becca, your becoming the female slyfox here. Calm down and stop putting words in my mouth, and making assumptions, just becuase they support your argument. I felt you were far more intelligent than that.

Oh yes, I'm in ignorant one. I wasn't the one that claimed women should be forced into a pregnancy because she obviously always consents to sex.

Please direct me to were I claimed that. Oh wait, I didnt. You just assumed thats what I meant. Getting raped is getting raped. Having sex, is having sex. two different things.

If I'm the one that has to keep it in my uterus, then yes, it is completely my choice to decide whether something should have a 'chance at life'.

please allow me to know when the first session at te church of Becca happens, since apperrently now YOU are the one who can decide if something deserves to live or die. You shouldve thought about having to keep something in your uterus when you made the decision to have sex.

Now this is just completely disrespectful and ignorant. What's 9 months of pregnancy? Read up on it. And, honestly, says the guy who will never have to face being pregnant for 9 months.

LOL. Please, try to turn this into a woman against men thing. and regardless, 9 months < a whole life. And, Honestly, says the girl who has never had to face ending someones life.

Sex isn't ONLY for reproduction. And if you think that, make sure you don't have sex until you want a family. And, should married couples who don't want children not have sex?
It's people who think like this, who then campaign for 'abstinence only' education, who cause there to be as many abortions as there is. Because people are going to have sex. No doubt about it.

Consenting to sex, and consenting to pregnancy are completely different. Yes, everyone knows there's a slight chance of pregnancy during sex, but what about birth control failures? Just because I don't want a child ever, doesn't mean I shouldn't have sex.

Please, once again, direct me to were I told you that sex was ONLY for that. I said thats what its intended for in nature, and if you disagree with that, you are just absurd amounts of wrong. And your half right. Consenting to sex, is also consenting to the risk of becoming pregnant. If you go around disregarding that risk, then you are enormously and damn near incomprehensibly irresponsible and selfish.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Anyone who consents to sex should know that there's chance of a pregnancy, even when using a condom. So it kind of is also consenting to the fact that there's a chance you can get pregnant.

I'm not the most religious person in the world at all, but how can anyone say with a straight face that a fetus isn't alive? Then what is it? I just...it sounds so cold, so unfeeling, so completely wrong when someone explains it like that. It's so easy to say that a fetus isn't a human being, but that's what it is becoming every moment, it's who it will be. I don't care if science says a fetus isn't a human being, that doesn't make aborting it, KILLING it, any less worse. If people want to say that to console themselves, fine. In those first twelve weeks when abortions usually occur, the baby already has a beating heart, fingers and toes, is moving, is attached to its mother. How can you say that's not living? To be ALIVE is to exist, and that fetus, that embryo, that baby, that child- no matter how you spin it, exists. And that my friend, is fact, not fiction.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[X]

oK, so sex isnt intended by nature to create children is what your telling me? Condoms were created by humans. Sex, in its very nature, is intended for reproduction.

No shit. But you said that if you consent to sex then you're consenting to becoming pregnant; which is bullshit. Because you can have sex without the threat of becoming pregnant, which debunks your entire theory.

Your right, its no my decision, but it shouldnt be anyones besides the persons life that will not exist.

How exactly are we going to ask an unborn fetus if it wants to exist? Is that joke?

Say I sucede to you that since science says a fetus isnt a human (although something that is breathing, eating, growing, and moving certainley seems like a living thing to me)....so stopping a life from existing isnt murder, regardless if the life has yet to begin?? If you stop a life from being in existance, you didnt kill it??

No, if you stop something from existing BEFORE IT EVER EXISTS, then it's not murder. So I guess since you believe that a life is created at the moment of conception, shouldn't you be out there starting Anti-*********ion campaigns? Thousands and thousands of "lives" are being lost when you ejaculate.

To murder something, it has to be alive. A fetus is not. Your argument that since the fetus is breathing, eating, growing, and moving that it's alive is ridiculious. So then plants are alive too? Are you going to start stopping people from "murdering" plants? Hey, they fit your criteria for life too.

So I guess all those "sceintists" opinions are better than mine, becuase they are scientists, and they know science, and they are scientists and stuff. Just becuase a scientist says it, doesnt make it true.

Yeah, actually, it does. Thats why they're fucking SCIENTISTS. How are you going to say just because a scientist says it doesn't mean it's true? So I guess theres no such thing as gravity right? I mean thats another crazy wacky idea that scientists have.

So yeah actually, because a scientist says it and uses science to PROVE it, yeah, it does make it true.

If my mother got an abortion, I wouldnt be typing this to you right now, thus my life wouldve never happened. So what, exactly, would that be classified as in your opinion?

It wouldn't be murder. It would be a form of prevention. You're not alive; you can't kill something that isn't alive.

Anyone who consents to sex should know that there's chance of a pregnancy, even when using a condom. So it kind of is also consenting to the fact that there's a chance you can get pregnant.

And what about a couple that has sex, and the man has had a visectomy? There is zero chance for impregnation there. So this theory that consenting to sex is consenting to pregnancy is absolutely ridiculious.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

And what about a couple that has sex, and the man has had a visectomy? There is zero chance for impregnation there. So this theory that consenting to sex is consenting to pregnancy is absolutely ridiculious.

And again I said, it isn't directly consenting to sex, but if you know that it's possible that you can have a baby (as in the man doesn't have a vasectomy or the woman doesn't have a hysterectomy, etc, etc) and you have sex, than you should be aware that there is a chance of pregnancy, and if you still choose to go through with it, that would be consenting to that risk.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[Mighty NorCal]

How exactly are we going to ask an unborn fetus if it wants to exist? Is that joke?

EXACTLY

To murder something, it has to be alive. A fetus is not. Your argument that since the fetus is breathing, eating, growing, and moving that it's alive is ridiculious. So then plants are alive too? Are you going to start stopping people from "murdering" plants? Hey, they fit your criteria for life too.

A breathing, living, growing animal, with fingers and toes and organs isnt alive. Alright, whatever you wanna say.

Yeah, actually, it does. Thats why they're fucking SCIENTISTS. How are you going to say just because a scientist says it doesn't mean it's true? So I guess theres no such thing as gravity right? I mean thats another crazy wacky idea that scientists have.

So yeah actually, because a scientist says it and uses science to PROVE it, yeah, it does make it true.

hm...well I just dropped a can of chunky soup, and it hit the ground, so yea gravity does exist. Not becuase a sceintist told me it did, becuase I just saw it, and I know it. Just like I know a fetus is alive.

It wouldn't be murder. It would be a form of prevention. You're not alive; you can't kill something that isn't alive.

Yes, just like if someone walked up to me and shot me in the face, it would probably prevent me from being around tomorrow LOL. "prevention" of a life existing. Thats a nice spin on it X.

And what about a couple that has sex, and the man has had a visectomy? There is zero chance for impregnation there. So this theory that consenting to sex is consenting to pregnancy is absolutely ridiculious.

I said nature intended sex to be for reproduction. So therefore if you are having sex, you are commiting the act of reproduction. Nature doesnt give visectomies, people do.

 

[Father:_Polley]

characteristics of life:

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature - cells adapt to ion concentrations, preserve water balance.
Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life - check
Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life - use of placental nutrients to do this
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish - present
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present - in the basest sense, yes. adapts to form organs and tissues
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey - responds to the stem cell stimuli to differentiate into the respective tissues
Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth - asexual division for growth.

by scientific definition this is life. will that change your mind...i think not.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

The definition of the word "alive-"

From answers.com:

a·live (&#601;-l&#299;v')
adj.
Having life; living. See synonyms at living.
In existence or operation; active: keep your hopes alive.
Full of living or moving things; abounding: a pool alive with trout.
Full of activity or animation; lively: a face alive with mischief.

From dictionary.com:

a·live Audio Help /&#601;&#712;la&#618;v/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-lahyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. having life; living; existing; not dead or lifeless.
2. living (used for emphasis): the proudest man alive.
3. in a state of action; in force or operation; active: to keep hope alive.
4. full of energy and spirit; lively: Grandmother's more alive than most of her contemporaries.
5. having the quality of life; vivid; vibrant: The room was alive with color.
6. Electricity. live2 (def. 17).
—Idioms7. alive to, alert or sensitive to; aware of: City planners are alive to the necessity of revitalizing deteriorating neighborhoods.
8. alive with, filled with living things; swarming; teeming: The room was alive with mosquitoes.
9. look alive! pay attention! move quickly!: Look alive! We haven't got all day.

From Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: alive
Pronunciation: \&#601;-&#712;l&#299;v\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English on life, from on + l&#299;f life
Date: before 12th century
1: having life : not dead or inanimate
2 a: still in existence, force, or operation : active <kept hope alive> b: still active in competition with a chance of victory <must win to stay alive in the playoffs>
3: knowing or realizing the existence of : sensitive <alive to the danger>
4: marked by alertness, energy, or briskness <his face came alive at the mention of food>
5: marked by much life, animation, or activity : swarming <streets alive with traffic>
6—used as an intensive following the noun <the proudest boy alive>

Now I just don't see where it says that to be considerd "alive" you have to out of the womb. Many of the definitions and usages of the word alive are things that even embryos can do. They exist, they can move, they aren't dead. So how are they not alive? I'm just not getting that.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[X]

EXACTLYA breathing, living, growing animal, with fingers and toes and organs isnt alive. Alright, whatever you wanna say.

It's not. A fetus is not alive. It does not fit the scientific qualification of a live HUMAN BEING. Therefore, it is not alive. Please explain how science is wrong.

hm...well I just dropped a can of chunky soup, and it hit the ground, so yea gravity does exist. Not becuase a sceintist told me it did, becuase I just saw it, and I know it. Just like I know a fetus is alive.

That is by far the most idiotic attempt at a rebuttal I have ever seen. How do you know the planet Saturn exists? Have you ever seen it? No, so how do you know it exists? Because of science.

You can "know" a fetus is alive all you like, it doesn't make it true.

Yes, just like if someone walked up to me and shot me in the face, it would probably prevent me from being around tomorrow LOL. "prevention" of a life existing. Thats a nice spin on it X.

No, if you were shot in the face tomorrow that wouldn't be a prevention of your life existing, because you've already been born. Whereas if something is killed in the womb, it is never alive, and therefore, it is not murder.

I'm arguing you with science, facts, and logic, and you're responding with your personal opinion which has no backing whatsoever.

Besides, you still haven't answered my main question: What possible benefit could come from abortion being illegal?

 

[Father:_Polley]

as a question? do you consider a threadworm to be alive, or a malaria protozoa? both of which cannot live outside a host. so why shouldn't an embryo, which is in effect a parasite for 9 months of its existance, viewed as alive

 

[Father:_Polley]

It's not. A fetus is not alive. It does not fit the scientific qualification of a live HUMAN BEING. Therefore, it is not alive. Please explain how science is wrong.

That is by far the most idiotic attempt at a rebuttal I have ever seen. How do you know the planet Saturn exists? Have you ever seen it? No, so how do you know it exists? Because of science.

You can "know" a fetus is alive all you like, it doesn't make it true.

No, if you were shot in the face tomorrow that wouldn't be a prevention of your life existing, because you've already been born. Whereas if something is killed in the womb, it is never alive, and therefore, it is not murder.

I'm arguing you with science, facts, and logic, and you're responding with your personal opinion which has no backing whatsoever.

Besides, you still haven't answered my main question: What possible benefit could come from abortion being illegal?

all you've to do is get a telescope and you can see it.

you can believe it's not all you like...it won't make it true in the minds of those who believe otherwise

it would be a prevention of the extension of his life...which if you hold to the belief that life begins an conception, is exactly the same.

as far as benefit, while it would bring backstreet abortion clinics and the dangers those bring to the fore...can you honestly say that no-one will take the mindset of 'screw a condom, she can have an abortion'? that would lead to an increase in STIs, HIV, an increased social burden. you can say hypothetical all you want, but i ask what benefits apart from reduction in illegal abortion clinics are there?

 

[X]

all you've to do is get a telescope and you can see it.

you can believe it's not all you like...it won't make it true in the minds of those who believe otherwise

it would be a prevention of the extension of his life...which if you hold to the belief that life begins an conception, is exactly the same.

Everything you just said, was your personal moral religious viewpoint.

There is a seperation of church and state so that your personal moral religious viewpoint doesn't mean anything. You can't run your country by your personal religion, or we would be Saudi Arabia now wouldn't we?

as far as benefit, while it would bring backstreet abortion clinics and the dangers those bring to the fore...can you honestly say that no-one will take the mindset of 'screw a condom, she can have an abortion'? that would lead to an increase in STIs, HIV, an increased social burden. you can say hypothetical all you want, but i ask what benefits apart from reduction in illegal abortion clinics are there?

I wish I could understand what you just said, but it makes no sense whatsoever. I think you're trying to ask me what benefits from making abortion legal are there?

More then there are benefits for it being illegal. Because it's going to happen anyway.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

LOL so why does everything have to becuase of religion and church? Just becuase someone belives Abortion is murder becuase they think the fetus is alive doesnt mean its becuase they are religous.

And anyway, im done with this. Its one of the conversations (along with relgion) that will never have an end, and were u cant change anyone's mind. You guys belive what science tels you, that its not alive. I feel, that it IS alive. You have your "facts" I have my "convictions". You will not give up yours, I will surely not ever give up mine. So all it ever amounts to is us telling each other how stupid our arguments are (like you chose to do) and losing respect for each other by reducing our conversation to light, condescending insults that are just outside of flaming. I gave my opinions, you gave your opinion, I made a rebuttal, you made yours. You and science think its not alive, and your just "preventing", I think it is alive, and "preventing" a life from occuring, is murder LOL. done. Thanks for the banter.

 

[Father:_Polley]

i'm not running anywhere. democracy means i'm entitled to my opinion but it can be over-ruled by a popular majority, whether i agree with what is proposed or not.

as far as my moral viewpoint goes, isn't what you say based on yours? i mean you see no harm in abortion because of how you see that collection of cells. i presented my reasons as to why i feel embryos are living and never once did i use the words...because the God/the Bible said so. why? because embryos fulfil the seven criteria for life, that's my logic i'm presenting to you, based on science and not religion.

 

[Father:_Polley]

like norcal said, we can argue all night...i'm not moving and you're not gonna move. we're not gonna agree and there's nothing wrong with debate. but as i said, i presented my scientific justification for my beliefs and you have your beliefs, neither of us can really turn round and tell the other one they're wrong and expect anything but hostility.

i respectfully disagree with your opinions and i would hope that you can see why i have my views and respect that

 

[Slyfox696]

All the moral issues aside, let me explain why abortion cannot be outlawed.

The biggest reason comes into play, as most people understand, with scenarios of rape or genetic flaws in the baby in which the baby's life is limited in capability. Most people agree that bringing life into the world under those conditions is completely unfair to the child, and even to an extent the parent.

So, the solution to this, according to pro-life people, is "Well, just make it so those situations are exempt." Great theory. Now I have a question for you.

How?

I mean, how can you determine what genetic defect will completely ruin a life? How can you determine the instance of severity to which the defect must be before you can abort? How can you prove that a pregnancy was really a rape? To what extreme does these definitions go?

The problem is that there will ALWAYS be such an immense gray area of concern, that you can never flat outlaw abortion. You cannot set a definitive set of objective criteria under which an abortion may occur because every situation is different, and no two people are the same.

With this in mind, that leaves only 2 options. 1) Universal ban on abortion 2) Legalized abortion. And considering only one of those makes any sense what so ever, it is impossible to outlaw abortion.


Now, as far as the moral dilemma goes, I firmly against abortion. HOWEVER, I'm also against subjecting children to a cruel life, and so I would much rather a child never see a world in which they have no chance in. In the end, while I'm against abortion as much as possible, it should be a woman's right to choose whether or not she gets an abortion. Not because of any silly women's rights movements or empowerment they feel over their own body, but simply because the decision impacts their life much more than it will ever impact the child's.

As far as when a child is considered "alive", that is when it is born. While it may have all the characteristics of a human being, it is still not a part of the world.

Its IS murder. Period. fucking period. Once the egg connects with the sperm, and creates a human being, then thats what it is.

Well, you're murdering millions of sperm every time you *********e, but you don't see me getting in a tizzy about that.

I mean, after all sperm and female eggs are alive too. It's not like they come together and BAM! I'm alive. Sperm are every bit as alive as a fertilized egg. So, unless you never jerk off, and never practice contraception, you're probably making a hypocrite out of yourself.

How are you making a hypocrite out of yourself? Well, 1 of 2 ways. 1) You're making a hypocrite out of yourself because you kill millions of sperm which can grow into human beings...or 2) You're making a hypocrite out of yourself by criticizing another person's belief of when life begins, when your own definition can be seen as limited.

So, like I said, unless you have never in your life *********ed and never in your life practiced contraception or preached contraception, you're making a hypocrite out of yourself.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Yes, I forgot that becuase a sceintist says something its the end all be all and its right. Like I said, if it makes you feel better to think that, then thats fine. Something that grows, breaths, eats, and moves sounds like a living thing to me.

There's scientific proof a fetus isn't alive. Yes it has some characteristics, but deep down, all it is is a bunch of cells, where there's a possibility IF the woman wants it, that it could become a baby.

Damn Becca, your becoming the female slyfox here. Calm down and stop putting words in my mouth, and making assumptions, just because they support your argument. I felt you were far more intelligent than that.

Putting words into your mouth? On the contrary, what I'm doing is showing you, how your opinions, wihilst fine to stay your opinions, shouldn't have to affect my life or my body.

Please direct me to were I claimed that. Oh wait, I didnt. You just assumed thats what I meant. Getting raped is getting raped. Having sex, is having sex. two different things.

It is 2 very different things yes. So tell me then, how a woman should be forced into a pregnancy after rape?

And there's no way you can say "well raped women should be able to have an abortion", because there's way too many problems with that.

please allow me to know when the first session at te church of Becca happens, since apperrently now YOU are the one who can decide if something deserves to live or die. You shouldve thought about having to keep something in your uterus when you made the decision to have sex.

People use contraception, to stop getting pregnant. Yes sometimes it fails, and people should know that before having sex. But just because someone has sex, doesn't mean they're ready to have a baby, and there are a number of reasons why someone may feel they can't. Who are you to judge whether those reasons are good enough?

I do have the right to decide whether I want a child or not, yes.

LOL. Please, try to turn this into a woman against men thing. and regardless, 9 months < a whole life. And, Honestly, says the girl who has never had to face ending someones life.

Did you honestly just say that to me? Yeah well, this is the girl who has been raped, and has had to face this possibility before. So don't act as if I don't know what I'm talking about.

Please, once again, direct me to were I told you that sex was ONLY for that. I said thats what its intended for in nature, and if you disagree with that, you are just absurd amounts of wrong. And your half right. Consenting to sex, is also consenting to the risk of becoming pregnant. If you go around disregarding that risk, then you are enormously and damn near incomprehensibly irresponsible and selfish.

You're implying sex is only for repreoduction. When it isn't. Yes that is the main use of it, no one can ever deny that. But if you think just because someone doesn't want kids they will refrain from sex, you're mistaken.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Did you honestly just say that to me? Yeah well, this is the girl who has been raped, and has had to face this possibility before. So don't act as if I don't know what I'm talking about.

Hardly see why this was necessary to throw out. But my point was, I would very surely assume that you would feel better living the rest of your life knowing you went through a pregnancy, than knowing you ended a life. Becuase knowing you took a life from the world causes anguish to which there is no description. If it wasnt a "possibilty you faced" and actually a decision you made and carried out, and your sceintific facts make you feel no sense of guilt, then good. "facing a possibility" and actually making the decision to go through with taking a life from the world, are two extremely different things. Im not belittling your situation, im merely stating my point and your situation are different arenas. Read what I wrote. So unless you ARE responsible for removing someones life from existance in this earth, no, you do NOT know what you are talking about.

 

[Father:_Polley]

All the moral issues aside, let me explain why abortion cannot be outlawed.

The biggest reason comes into play, as most people understand, with scenarios of rape or genetic flaws in the baby in which the baby's life is limited in capability. Most people agree that bringing life into the world under those conditions is completely unfair to the child, and even to an extent the parent.

So, the solution to this, according to pro-life people, is "Well, just make it so those situations are exempt." Great theory. Now I have a question for you.

How?

I mean, how can you determine what genetic defect will completely ruin a life? How can you determine the instance of severity to which the defect must be before you can abort? How can you prove that a pregnancy was really a rape? To what extreme does these definitions go?

The problem is that there will ALWAYS be such an immense gray area of concern, that you can never flat outlaw abortion. You cannot set a definitive set of objective criteria under which an abortion may occur because every situation is different, and no two people are the same.

With this in mind, that leaves only 2 options. 1) Universal ban on abortion 2) Legalized abortion. And considering only one of those makes any sense what so ever, it is impossible to outlaw abortion.


Now, as far as the moral dilemma goes, I firmly against abortion. HOWEVER, I'm also against subjecting children to a cruel life, and so I would much rather a child never see a world in which they have no chance in. In the end, while I'm against abortion as much as possible, it should be a woman's right to choose whether or not she gets an abortion. Not because of any silly women's rights movements or empowerment they feel over their own body, but simply because the decision impacts their life much more than it will ever impact the child's.

As far as when a child is considered "alive", that is when it is born. While it may have all the characteristics of a human being, it is still not a part of the world.

Well, you're murdering millions of sperm every time you *********e, but you don't see me getting in a tizzy about that.

I mean, after all sperm and female eggs are alive too. It's not like they come together and BAM! I'm alive. Sperm are every bit as alive as a fertilized egg. So, unless you never jerk off, and never practice contraception, you're probably making a hypocrite out of yourself.

How are you making a hypocrite out of yourself? Well, 1 of 2 ways. 1) You're making a hypocrite out of yourself because you kill millions of sperm which can grow into human beings...or 2) You're making a hypocrite out of yourself by criticizing another person's belief of when life begins, when your own definition can be seen as limited.

So, like I said, unless you have never in your life *********ed and never in your life practiced contraception or preached contraception, you're making a hypocrite out of yourself.

this is an area filled with grey issues. as sly has pointed out, how can you decided which defects will significantly impair quality of life?

rape victims - i would never expect a woman to carry a baby knowing she was raped when it was conceived.

i'll repeat my point about the sperm in here for the benefit of those who havent yet read the other post. sperm are not genetically human. they have the potential to be but are not human cells in the 23 chromosome pairs sense of the word. therefore *********ion is not killing genetically human tissue.

as far as my views on abortion... as far as possible i'm against it. i'd never refuse a rape victim that right, or in a case where both child and mother would die unless an abortion occurs. but abortion for the sake that you just don't want the hassle, that i don't agree with. there are lots of methods of contraception out there, so if you really don't want to get pregnant (and not just the girls, the guys are responsible), double up. the odds of a condom failing and the pill when taken properly failing are miniscule.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Hardly see why this was necessary to throw out. But my point was, I would very surely assume that you would feel better living the rest of your life knowing you went through a pregnancy, than knowing you ended a life.

I'd feel better aborting it, than getting pregnant and keeping it. I have exams coming up soon. I would not be able to juggle that around having a child. My family could disown me for it. That right there would be my future messed up. I know why you feel this way, regarding ending a life, and to an extent I agree with you. It isn't a decision to be taken lightly, and definately shouldn't be. And well if that's your opinion, then fine I respect that. But can you see why abortion is rght for some people, in certain circumstances?

Becuase knowing you took a life from the world causes anguish to which there is no description. If it wasnt a "possibilty you faced" and actually a decision you made and carried out, and your sceintific facts make you feel no sense of guilt, then good. "facing a possibility" and actually making the decision to go through with taking a life from the world, are two extremely different things. Im not belittling your situation, im merely stating my point and your situation are different arenas. Read what I wrote. So unless you ARE responsible for removing someones life from existance in this earth, no, you do NOT know what you are talking about.

Well have you ever taken someones life from this world? Should only those who have be able to have a say on the matter? I don't like abortion, in case anyone has that idea in their head. And I don't know whether I'd ever be able to get one, but shouldn't the woman have the right to choose what's best for her and her family? At the end of the day, regardless of what you believe, if abortion was illegalised it'd just cause more problems.

In Ireland, abortion is illegal. But all that does is makes the wealthy women fly to England to get it done. However, this discriminates against those that can't afford to fly over and get it done.

Then, think about when abortion has been illegalised before. People still got abortions, they just weren't safe, and more women died from them.

I completely respect your opinion, if that's what you think. As other people have respected mine. I don't want you thinking I don't. I disagree but I know you're entitled to your own thoughts.

 

[HBK-aholic]

this is an area filled with grey issues. as sly has pointed out, how can you decided which defects will significantly impair quality of life?

rape victims - i would never expect a woman to carry a baby knowing she was raped when it was conceived.

i'll repeat my point about the sperm in here for the benefit of those who havent yet read the other post. sperm are not genetically human. they have the potential to be but are not human cells in the 23 chromosome pairs sense of the word. therefore *********ion is not killing genetically human tissue.

as far as my views on abortion... as far as possible i'm against it. i'd never refuse a rape victim that right, or in a case where both child and mother would die unless an abortion occurs. but abortion for the sake that you just don't want the hassle, that i don't agree with. there are lots of methods of contraception out there, so if you really don't want to get pregnant (and not just the girls, the guys are responsible), double up. the odds of a condom failing and the pill when taken properly failing are miniscule.

Well, I respect your opinion, and I respect that you realise there are some cases abortion is necessary. But that in itself lies a problem, as it could bring people to act as if they're in one of the categories you think abortion is okay with, just so they can get an abortion. See where I think trouble could be ahead here?

As I've said, I don't necessarily agree with abortion, but there's too many problems with making it illegal to ignore. It's safer for everyone to have the choice. Whether someone takes it or not is up to them.

 

[Slyfox696]

i'll repeat my point about the sperm in here for the benefit of those who havent yet read the other post. sperm are not genetically human. they have the potential to be but are not human cells in the 23 chromosome pairs sense of the word. therefore *********ion is not killing genetically human tissue.

You say that sperm is not human cells, but they can CREATE human life. So, by killing them, are you not killing millions of possibilities of future babies?

And what about contraception? Birth control and spermicide specifically? You're preventing life from occurring, which is the exact same thing anti-abortion people are trying to say abortion does.

Now, I realize you're not exactly saying that abortion should be outlawed (at least not in this post), but to try and define an arbitrary set point of life in the internal biological parents is silly to me, because you can always break life down to even smaller forms.

If, however, you consider being alive to occur at the moment one enters this world, then you have a set point, that really cannot be disputed is a major life event.

 

[Father:_Polley]

by that logic sly, any ejaculation is abortion. only one little swimmer does the deed, the rest die. similarly lack of ejaculation is abortion as they die internally. but that's not really relevant to discussion

biologically speaking, sperm cannot reproduce so technically aren't alive.
the whole argument basically boils down to when you believe life begins. personally, i see no problem in the fact that life can be seen to begin at conception, while others will tell me not to be stupid, that they're not born so not alive.

and in case i'm not clear - i don't feel abortion can be outlawed completely. too many health risks with illegal abortions and other risk to mother/child. i just don't feel it's right that it should take place simply because someone decides it's not wanted.
my other reason is a health reason as mentioned above - i feel it would weaken any safe sex messages and result in an increase of STIs/HIV/hepatitis etc.