Abortion

[HBK-aholic]

So if you're going to give the woman the sole right to decide whether or not to keep the child, the sole right over the child, then why do men suddenly become responsible for it if it is ever born? My friend brought up that point at another forum, and I think it blows a gaping hole in the argument so many feminists put out- that women carry the pregnancy, so they should have all rights over the baby. Why isn't that true all the time? If that's the case, then men shouldn't be held accountable when it comes to things like child support for the baby if it is ever born because that's picking and choosing when to give men rights. I don't understand how any feminist who believes that only the woman can decide whether to get an abortion or not, can preach about equal rights. Equal rights only when it's convenient for them maybe, and in the end that's not equal rights at all.

Flames Out
Dragon

First thing that jumped out is this, and it goes hand in hand with people preaching about 'rights', it's working to their responsibilities, nothing about rights.

I was thinking about this though when I read the sig you had regarding it a while back. It may be helpful if you post that in your next reply actually.

But anyway, the problem with my opinion on this is that there is too many holes in it that people could find a way out of when it came to laws. I have an opinion on it obviously, but I don't know whether it'd work out when it came down to it.

If a woman falls pregnant and the man makes it clear he wants her to have an abortion and she doesn't, it's her responsibility to look after the child. In the same way she shouldn't be forced to have a child, the man shouldn't be forced to have a child either, if only in the emotional sense.

However, for something like a divorce, men, or women, which ever are not the full time carer should have to pay child support and things similar. Because both decided they wanted it, and both need to learn they'd have a responsibility to that child; not to decide they don't want it a few years down the line. They had a child, and with that they both should realise a child is forever.

As I said, all this has big problems, as men could easily say they didn't want her to have the child, when it could be a lie. This could also really upset the child; hearing their father say something like that.

The way it is now, and a vital point you're missing, is that men and women both have to pay child support if they're absent from the majority their childs life, which more often that not is their choice, with some exceptions obviously.

 

[Iscariot]

So if you're going to give the woman the sole right to decide whether or not to keep the child, the sole right over the child, then why do men suddenly become responsible for it if it is ever born? My friend brought up that point at another forum, and I think it blows a gaping hole in the argument so many feminists put out- that women carry the pregnancy, so they should have all rights over the baby. Why isn't that true all the time? If that's the case, then men shouldn't be held accountable when it comes to things like child support for the baby if it is ever born because that's picking and choosing when to give men rights. I don't understand how any feminist who believes that only the woman can decide whether to get an abortion or not, can preach about equal rights. Equal rights only when it's convenient for them maybe, and in the end that's not equal rights at all.

Flames Out
Dragon

I must admit, I'm with ED on this one. First off I’d like to just point out that I am all for equal rights. Men and Women should have exactly the same rights in the world, period. The key here for me is EQUAL rights. There are, personally, too many situations that are supposedly equal but actually favour the woman, this being one of the cases. I’ve not thrown my lot in on this thread before as I have a tendency to be beaten to a messy pulp by women who think I’m not being ‘fair’ and favouring the man, when really I’m not. When it comes to abortion, the woman does have the sole decision regardless of the man, and that’s unfair for many reasons, especially if she decides to abort the child if he wants to keep it, but at the same time she shouldn’t have to keep it just because he wants it.

My main issue is I believe there should be provisions in place that either sex, man or woman, should be able to sign a contract wavering all rights and responsibilities to the child. Now I admit that sounds incredibly heartless, but I don’t believe just because a woman decides she wants the child, the man essentially has no choice but to pay for this kid the rest of his life. I know it’s jointly his fault the child is here in the first place, but dammit she was there too, she took basic Sex Ed when she was in school, she should look after her body as much as he should look after his.

I’m not even sure a contract is the way to go, I’ll be honest and say I’ve not spent a tremendous amount of time thinking of a system to put in place, but there needs to be something.

=I=

 

[Mighty NorCal]

My main issue is I believe there should be provisions in place that either sex, man or woman, should be able to sign a contract wavering all rights and responsibilities to the child.

=I=

There actually IS something like this Isy. In the situation I had in an earlier post, were a girl thought she was pregnant by me, and was going to scrpae my baby becuase she didnt feel like dealing with a pregnancy, I did some research, and found out there are documents, forms, and provisions that can be sighned prior to birth, that waives pretty much all ownership and custody of the child the very instant it exits the female. Im not sure if the reverse is true for men, waiving rights, which im fairly sure it isnt. Becuase, as we have discussed, the woman has a very highly unfair power in this situation. Just like ED said, how can I have NO right to say I dont want my baby taken from me, but SHE can force ME to pay for it after its out, if I were to not want to have anything to do with it??? There is no way thats fair, and it does give women more rights than men, and its bullshit.

 

[Sparky]

now a days people are just having abortions just because they where to lazy to use a condom or to go on the pill. I am against abortions in that way and if it was an accident and they just dont want it. i mean there are so many unlucky people that cant have kids. just put the kid up for adoption. also i know heaps of people who are having abortions just because they dont want the father to have anything to do with the kid so they kill it. that is wrong imo. there are some reasons where abortions are acceptable and they are
if the girl has been sexually assulted i dont think they should have to live with the costant memory. also the kid would probly be hated by the mother when she gets angry.

If the baby has a severe condition where it wont live for long or will have major problems in life it is ok.

 

[HBK-aholic]

The problem with your way of thinking is that you cant just pick and choose shich abortions are okay and which aren't. You can't be for it in some circumstances yet against it in others, as it makes no sense. I understand your reasoning, as I also dslike the idea of people having abortions simply because they will not use birth control, however that option is needed, so that women have a choice in the matter, and that we aren't forcing them into a pregnancy they don't want.

And if we allow it for sexual assault only, you'll just have hundreds of girls lying about rape just because they want an abortion and in no way is that a good thing.

 

[kieran_devlin]

Whats a few months to give someone life anyway. Sure if you dont want the baby for whatever reason you can give the baby up for adoption you might even change your mind? As punishment for the person getting pregnant and wanting to kill the child they should be made to give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption or summit. Why would someone want to get an abortion anyway when there are alternatives.

Someone said something about sperm and that contraceptives looking at it from your killing a life point of view your stopping a child then, well id say that if you think that way then well women have periods and that is the release of eggs is that not the same. Sperm cannot survive that long either way.

It really says something about the UK if we have the highest teen pregnancy and abortion rate in Europe.

We have abortion on demand in the UK now.
Plus a lot of baby can survive at 20 plus weeks.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Whats a few months to give someone life anyway. Sure if you dont want the baby for whatever reason you can give the baby up for adoption you might even change your mind? As punishment for the person getting pregnant and wanting to kill the child they should be made to give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption or summit. Why would someone want to get an abortion anyway when there are alternatives.

The day anyone forces me to give birth is the day women know they really do have no rights. Adoption isn't always the answer, there are manty reasons a woman may not be able to go through with a pregnancy, physically and emotionally. And do you know how many children currently need adopting? I'm going to presume you and everyone else that says put it up for adoption are on the waiting list to foster and adopt all the unwanted children.

It really says something about the UK if we have the highest teen pregnancy and abortion rate in Europe.

We have abortion on demand in the UK now.
Plus a lot of baby can survive at 20 plus weeks.

I believe the earliest surviving baby was at 22-24 weeks. Which is why abortion isn't allowed after that period.

 

[Gelgarin]

I think we should move the date back to 20 weeks; there is valid scientific evidence that a fetus can survive with a quality of live after 20 weeks, (this evidence was essentially hidden by the latest scientific enquiry) and as such that seems the logical place to put it.

Beyond that though; I am 100% pro choice. Devlin basically, inadvertently, hit the nail right on the head when he said this,

Someone said something about sperm and that contraceptives looking at it from your killing a life point of view your stopping a child then, well id say that if you think that way then well women have periods and that is the release of eggs is that not the same. Sperm cannot survive that long either way.

Before 20 weeks the fetus cannot live, and as such aborting it is no different than taking the morning after pill. Either way your likely to be scrapping a fertilized egg, and the entire basis of the anti-abortion argument seems to be that it's wrong to kill the older organism because it's a bit baby shaped.

Seriously, every other argument as to why you shouldn't do it is fundamentally flawed. The thing can move... so can sperm. The thing responds to external stimuli... so does sperm. The thing might one day be a human being... so might sperm. Yet males don't seem to find the need to vilify themselves for indulging themselves every morning. Beyond that, the only argument I ever hear against it seems to be the religious one, which given that the Bible is essentially pro choice, is equally flawed.

Possibly in a different social environment, where birth rates were actually important, I might be persuaded to think differently. But right now the western world is not exactly hurting for people, and keeping the level of children born into a poor social environment down is probably good for everybody.

Personally I can't actually see why anyone even needs 20 weeks to decide to have an abortion, but then I'm a guy, and not an expert on the finer points of pregnancy.

 

[kieran_devlin]

nah they used a fake heart to keep a 18 week old child alive it was a world record im sure it was in Germany i saw it on the news i think last year or early this year

some babies can survive at 20 weeks mostly i think tho abortion should be minimum at 20 weeks or 22 weeks at the least

in the uk its 24 weeks

ive seen 24 week old babies they are big and i would not like to flush out one

what i think is anyone who chooses abortion is stupid
i know adoption isnt currently that good but its better

people who say things like cant afford really shouldnt say that because you can get government grants and benefits these days
people dont know how to care can learn there are classes for that
people need help can get homehelp

something like rape only 5% of people choose abortion

i understand forcing people is cruel but we got people going for abortions and such all the time basically these days you can say you dont want it

the point of abortion was to stop backstreet abortion where people could get injured or die or the child would be very late on in the pregnancy

i have personally experience with people born premature and my best friend is perfectly normal, my cousins brother (whos not my cousin) was born premature he survived he had a soft head for years its fine now, he has learning difficulties sometimes but nothing life threatening

a lot of babies whatever they are called have brain functions at early stages

how would you like it if you found out your mother aborted you brother or sister and decided to keep you?

i dont know what to say now because forcing people would not be right but letting them get abortions isnt either its a tricky situation

 

[HBK-aholic]

nah they used a fake heart to keep a 18 week old child alive it was a world record im sure it was in Germany i saw it on the news i think last year or early this year

Hold on, you mean a woman gave borth at 18 weeks and the child survived? Can you cite sources for this? Because I'm pretty sure this is fake. I mean for a start, a baby that premature wouldn't survive open heart surgery. And then, this if true would be a medical phenomena and would surely be used again.

ive seen 24 week old babies they are big and i would not like to flush out one

A 24 week old baby? Well yes that would be big, it's 6 months old..
If you mean a baby that was born prematurely, then the child would only be a few hours old.

what i think is anyone who chooses abortion is stupid

Well they're not, many women who choose abortion do so for reasons that are far from stupid.

something like rape only 5% of people choose abortion

And? Who cares how many people choose abortion because of rape? And there are many more women who get an abortion because of this, they just don;t shoult about the fact it was rape for many reasons.

i understand forcing people is cruel but we got people going for abortions and such all the time basically these days you can say you dont want it

Forcing people is cruel yes. So don't do it.

the point of abortion was to stop backstreet abortion where people could get injured or die or the child would be very late on in the pregnancy

Right...so we've established we need to keep abortion?

how would you like it if you found out your mother aborted you brother or sister and decided to keep you?

My mother has a CHOICE. If she aborted a sibling of mine, it's because she thought itd be best for the family.

i dont know what to say now because forcing people would not be right but letting them get abortions isnt either its a tricky situation

It is tricky yeah. In an ideal world people wouldn't need abortions. But we CANNOT make them illegal no matter what. Be against them all you like, but they need to be legal.

 

[kieran_devlin]

Im not sure right but i seen it on the news plus hundreds of people that get mechanical hearts to pump blood die only a few have survived.

Name reasons why it is okay to have an abortion?
Backstreet abortions isnt a reason to keep abortion because instead of regulating abortion it is now ON DEMAND, it started a slippery slope.

Telling me i can disagree but not do anything is stupid its an oxy moron.
Its like people who are tolerant of other cultures they hate it yet allow it to be, whereas i would be accepting of other cultures.

Abortion is On demand any one can get it and its sick how many Britains get it, we have the highest rate of abortion and teen pregnancy in Europe kinda says something about our nation dosnt it.

YET im a male i would be able to pass judgement because i cant have a child.

I was saying that forcing people to do something is cruel, you choose to twist that and say there you go that is why we should have abortions becaues we cant force them. YET it is the only option here becasue so many people will always choose the bad option, take that option away and they can never choose it. Call me a Nazi or fascist but you know im right people will always choose wrongly.

You dont even see why i think its senseless to have abortions.
I understand all you think is that women cant be forced thus we should have abortions. If you have no remorse about killing you are a cold person.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Name reasons why it is okay to have an abortion?

It's okay to have an abortion regardless of any reason you think is acceptable or not. But you want some, okay, here.

- They cannot afford to have another child
- A woman already has a disabled child and cannot look after him whilst being pregnant, as well as looking after a new baby
- A girls parents would kick her out if she got pregnant
- A woman is raped and falls pregnant
- Incest

So, go on, why should a woman not get an abortion in these cases?

Backstreet abortions isnt a reason to keep abortion because instead of regulating abortion it is now ON DEMAND, it started a slippery slope.

Regulating abortion and abortion being on demand is the same thing. You can't say it's okay to have an abortion in one instance but not in another.

Telling me i can disagree but not do anything is stupid its an oxy moron.

I'm saying you can disagree with abortion, that's fine. Many people can say they personally won't have an abortion. But that doesn't mean it should be made illegal. Don't like abortions? Don't get one.

Abortion is On demand any one can get it and its sick how many Britains get it, we have the highest rate of abortion and teen pregnancy in Europe kinda says something about our nation dosnt it.

That's down to the education we get in this country regarding sex ed.

YET im a male i would be able to pass judgement because i cant have a child.

I laughed when I saw a T-shirt that said "no uterus, no opinion". Truth is, have your opinion, I don't care. I do care when people, men or women, try and make abortion illegal.

I was saying that forcing people to do something is cruel, you choose to twist that and say there you go that is why we should have abortions becaues we cant force them. YET it is the only option here becasue so many people will always choose the bad option, take that option away and they can never choose it. Call me a Nazi or fascist but you know im right people will always choose wrongly.

So getting an abortion is choosing wrong? That's bullshit and you know it. It's the right choice for some women who fall pregnant.

You dont even see why i think its senseless to have abortions.
I understand all you think is that women cant be forced thus we should have abortions. If you have no remorse about killing you are a cold person.

You understand all I think do you? You are understanding nothing of what I'm saying. There are reasons people feel they need an abortion. I've posted a few at the top of this thread, go through them and tell me why women in those situations shouldn't get an abortion?

But pro-life people aren't cold people for forcing women to go through with pregnancies?

 

[HBK-aholic]

Interesting story I just heard about on the news. Somewhere in America, a group of pro-lifers killed a doctor who carried out an abortion, and was on his way to do another. I just laughed at the complete stupidity some people have. I mean, pro-lifers often go on about how the only thing they want to do is save life, and to give everything the best possible chance at a life.

So, why kill something? Especially a grown man. It's not okay for a woman to have an abortion, but it is okay for them to go out and kill people? I'm pretty sure this defies the object of being pro-life, don't you?

 

[dirtyshubb]

Im pro choice, and i cant stand it that we have all these people trying to take the choice away from people just because they dont agree with it.

Having a baby is down to every individual and there are lots of instances where it would be better not only for you but for the 'child' aswell. People always use the example of Britain about how we have the highest abortion rate but we also have the highest rate of teen mums in Europe and lets all be honest with ourselves a LOT, not all but a lot either cant cope or do a terrible job of bringing up their children because of either not being finacially ready or having the maturity to make the right desicions in bringing the child up.

God people complain about youths today, imagine what it will be like in 10-15 years when all our teen mums and 'dads' children are their age, thats when we will be f****d!!!

Yes you can argue that they could give the child up for adoption but just as HBK-aholic has said look how many we have already! You hear horror stories about the sort of treatment these children suffer and how bad they often believe their upbringing to be terrible.

Of course you have the danger side that goes with having a child, there can be many complications that could end up resulting in the hilds death, the inability to have more children which would mean when you are ready to have children you would be f****d and of course worst case the mother could die herself. People say its not fair to take the 'childs' life away but is it fair to risk all of the negatives just to keep something that isnt even a real person yet, just something that would eventually grow into one (providing none of these complications arrise)?

People should be able to choose if they go through with the pregnancy if they want, its their body and im sure they are the most qualified to know if they are in the right situation to bring a child into this world.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

A simple solution to not getting knocked up. Don't have unprotected sex!

I'm pro choice, no matter what anyone says. If you choose to die, have an abortion, sex change or whatever, fair play.

Its the religious nuts that generally say "oh our book says you cant do this or that"

A really sad story a few months back was that a young woman had given birth to two healthy twins, yet rejected blood due to it being against her religion. Now those poor babies are growing up without a mother, wish people would choose sense over religion. But it will never happen

 

[dirtyshubb]

I totally agree with the unprotected sex comment, a lot of young people just dont seem to care these days which is where most of these problems arise from.

As for religion overall i am against it, yes it does help some but otherwise it just breeds ignorance and you end up with a book ruiling your life which 1)no longer applies to todays society and 2) has been re written to suite peoples needs, how can you let that rule your life???

But because there are these die hard people who do we end up with people like HBK-aholic gave an example of - complete idiots who think they are doing gods work buy saving lives by killing?!? Ones who oppose change even though it may be for the best.

And dont get me started on teh ones who believe you have to accept your a sinner and take Jesus into your life or you will go to hell!! Why cant i just live my life using my own moral judgment? No i can only lead a good life if i believe in a made up religious figure who was meant to have lived 2000 years ago, please!

Sorry about that, i just cant stop myself when it comes to religion

 

[Eternal Dragon]

First thing that jumped out is this, and it goes hand in hand with people preaching about 'rights', it's working to their responsibilities, nothing about rights.

No, I think when the government steps in, it's definitely about rights, not just responsibilities.

I was thinking about this though when I read the sig you had regarding it a while back. It may be helpful if you post that in your next reply actually.

Well this is the post she made about abortion-

LOL. It's a controversial issue to broach with anyone and it's one I've said to women who are feminists which didn't go over well with them but they still haven't answered me on that one, lol. Feminists can argue until their blue in the face but most of them don't argue for true equality. I've seen plenty of women who argue about the strength and reliability of women, they can be working women who are completely independent and should be offered the same job opportunities and the same salaries but I have yet to hear a feminist say that men paying child support should be abolished because women are 'independent' enough to support and take care of their responsibilities, lol. They want the things they don't have, but they also wanna keep the perks as well even if it may be unfair to men. That's not equality.

I think it's one of the most honest observations I've ever seen made about abortion and male/female rights when it comes to children.

If a woman falls pregnant and the man makes it clear he wants her to have an abortion and she doesn't, it's her responsibility to look after the child. In the same way she shouldn't be forced to have a child, the man shouldn't be forced to have a child either, if only in the emotional sense.

I think using the word "force" is misleading. In a normal case, no one is really forced to have sex (excluding rape), so it's not like the baby was forced upon them, it's just a consequence that they don't want to bear.

As I said, all this has big problems, as men could easily say they didn't want her to have the child, when it could be a lie. This could also really upset the child; hearing their father say something like that.

We all hear hurtful things in life, I don't think a father saying something like that is a good justification of abortion, if that is what you're trying to say.

The way it is now, and a vital point you're missing, is that men and women both have to pay child support if they're absent from the majority their childs life, which more often that not is their choice, with some exceptions obviously.

I'm not denying the fact that there are women out there that probably pay child support. I think what you're missing is that women have a right over the baby that men do not and that is why it's unfair to make them pay child support when you can't even give them the right to keep their baby.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[HBK-aholic]

No, I think when the government steps in, it's definitely about rights, not just responsibilities.

Well the government should stop getting involved in what women can and can't do with their bodies as well.

I think it's one of the most honest observations I've ever seen made about abortion and male/female rights when it comes to children.

I agree with it in parts as well. Everyone deserves the same rights. But in things like abortion it has to be weighed out in who it affects most. Being pregnant affects the woman more. If it was the other way around, and men got pregnant, and I'd still fight on the pro-choice side.

I think using the word "force" is misleading. In a normal case, no one is really forced to have sex (excluding rape), so it's not like the baby was forced upon them, it's just a consequence that they don't want to bear.

Consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy. That would mean she agreed to being pregnant, something she did not.

Consent
1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield

And you can't simply brush rape unbder the carpet, it circumstances like that in which there is a need for abortion to be legal.

We all hear hurtful things in life, I don't think a father saying something like that is a good justification of abortion, if that is what you're trying to say.

It's not a way to justify abortion, as women should not have to justify getting an abortion to you or to anyone else.

I'm not denying the fact that there are women out there that probably pay child support. I think what you're missing is that women have a right over the baby that men do not and that is why it's unfair to make them pay child support when you can't even give them the right to keep their baby.

Flames Out
Dragon

So it'd be fair for a woman to get pregnant whilst married and both want the child. but a year down line the man decides to leave and he has to pay nothing to help raise that child? Yeah seems fair to me. [/sarcasm]

I proposed a way to make this fair to both involved. But as I also said it isn't full proof, and would need to be worked out by others a lot.