Abortion

The one thing I despise is when people say stuff like "Abortion is only okay when a woman is raped." How can we make that difference? How does the baby's conception make one worth more than the other? No matter who is getting an abortion, no matter why, the fact of the matter is, in all cases someone, or something is going away, dying- not getting a chance to be born. That doesn't change.

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Dragon
 
well that all aplies doesnt it. If your living somewhere and the rent is like 2000/month then your job and ur spouses job should be able to cover that and expenses. If you choose to have sex and cant meet the needs if a kid were concieved then u put the baby up for adoption. It's still not a reason to have an abortion.
 
The one thing I despise is when people say stuff like "Abortion is only okay when a woman is raped." How can we make that difference? How does the baby's conception make one worth more than the other? No matter who is getting an abortion, no matter why, the fact of the matter is, in all cases someone, or something is going away, dying- not getting a chance to be born. That doesn't change.

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Dragon

I hate that but for a different reason. When pro-life people say this, it makes me think they only want people to continue the pregnancy to punish them for having sex in the first place. You can't punish a woman for rape.
If they were actually the meaning of pro life they wouldn't agree with abortion at all. Which means they don't care about the fetus really, but about punishing the woman.

-----------

Abortion shouldn't just be there for rape victims. It takes more than 9 months usually to get a conviction, and it would also increase the amount of fake rape claims made. And can you imagine telling a woman who had already been forced to have sex you were then going to force her to continue a pregnancy?
Abortion should be available to everyone, regardless.

I also hate it when people bring religion into the abortion debate. Not everyone believes in your God, so they shouldn't be forced to live by his rules.
 
I'm pro choice, allthough as an Irish Citizen our government dosnt allow its people a choice, so a women seeking abortion must fly to the UK in order to have the procedure. I believe its a womens right to choose no matter what. i know several people who have had an abortion, i know it was not an easy decision and i know that for them it was the right decision and they do not regret that decision at all.
 
I'm incredibly pro life. Your sig pissed me off at first LOL, but it's your opinion and I can be cool with that.

Okay, that's a lie. But hey at least I'm trying to accept that opinion. :p

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Dragon
 
Lol, I'm used to people hating on me for it. I don't really care. Haven't had a debate on it in a while though..

I don't exactly understand how someone can be pro life though?
 
Lol, I'm used to people hating on me for it. I don't really care. Haven't had a debate on it in a while though..

I don't exactly understand how someone can be pro life though?

I don't exactly understand how someone can be pro choice though LOL.

Sorries, I just couldn't help it.

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Dragon
 
I don't exactly understand how someone can be pro choice though LOL.

Sorries, I just couldn't help it.

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Dragon

I was waiting for it lol.

Well, I can easily be pro choice, by thinking of all the pluses of keeping abortion legal. Nothing good comes out of making it illegal. I don't understand how, if you don't like abortion, you can't just not have one but let other people choose.
 
I was waiting for it lol.

Well, I can easily be pro choice, by thinking of all the pluses of keeping abortion legal. Nothing good comes out of making it illegal. I don't understand how, if you don't like abortion, you can't just not have one but let other people choose.

If murder is illegal than abortion should be too.

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Dragon
 
If murder is illegal than abortion should be too.

Flames Out
Dragon

Abortion isn't murder.

Dictionary.com

1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
–verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.

Can you tell me which of these are involved in abortion?


Please stop with the political bullshit, all that's gonna happen is that other people are gonna come in and get involved and then it will eventually turn it a giant flame fest

Well, me and ED I believe, respect each others opinions even if we don't agree with them. If other people are going to get involved and be disrepectful, that's their fault. Everyone can debate about everything, so on this logic, nothing should be discussed in the bar room. That so?
 
Abortion isn't murder.

Legally it isn't, but you're ending a growling life (and that is pretty inhumane) and that to me is murder. I guess it could also be called killing if you want to get techincal with the definition.

Well, me and ED I believe, respect each others opinions even if we don't agree with them. If other people are going to get involved and be disrepectful, that's their fault. Everyone can debate about everything, so on this logic, nothing should be discussed in the bar room. That so?

Yuppers, I agree. I won't bash you, and I know you won't bash me so what's the problem with discussing it? If you aren't comfortable with the subject than ignore us.

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Dragon
 
Legally it isn't, but you're ending a growling life (and that is pretty inhumane) and that to me is murder. I guess it could also be called killing if you want to get techincal with the definition.

It depends really, when you class life as starting. I say when the fetus becomes viable; meaning it could survive outside the womb. Whereas mot pro lifers class it as the conception.

I just don't see any benefits of illegalizing abortion. I mean, it won't stop abortions. It'll just stop safe abortions, and it'll discriminate against certain people.


Yuppers, I agree. I won't bash you, and I know you won't bash me so what's the problem with discussing it? If you aren't comfortable with the subject than ignore us.

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Dragon

Amen.
 
It depends really, when you class life as starting. I say when the fetus becomes viable; meaning it could survive outside the womb. Whereas mot pro lifers class it as the conception.

I just don't see any benefits of illegalizing abortion. I mean, it won't stop abortions. It'll just stop safe abortions, and it'll discriminate against certain people.

See I just don't understand how it isn't considerd life from the very beginning. I was discussing this at another board and someone brought up the point that the baby develops a beating heart and human organs before 90% of women ever find out they're pregnant. Are we just going to ignore that and classify it as something that doesn't deserve the chance to survive outside of the womb?


I'm glad we can disagree and agree at the same time.

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Dragon
 
See I just don't understand how it isn't considerd life from the very beginning. I was discussing this at another board and someone brought up the point that the baby develops a beating heart and human organs before 90% of women ever find out they're pregnant. Are we just going to ignore that and classify it as something that doesn't deserve the chance to survive outside of the womb?

Are we just going to ignore the fact that a woman is a living, feeling, thinking person of her own who doesn't deserve to be forced into a pregnancy?
By making abortion illegal, women everywhere, no matter what their situation will be forced into keeping a pregnancy they don't want. Furthermore, do you really think abortions won't happen just because they're illegal?

It's not always just a simple, I got pregnant and I don't want it. There are so many reasons a woman would feel the need to get an abortion. Some that can't really be argued against.



I'm glad we can disagree and agree at the same time.

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Dragon

Yeah that is pretty funny actually lol.
 
I don't understand how you can't support abortion being legal. Even if you're totally against abortion. Making it illegal does absolutely nothing at all positive. All it does is force people to get unsafe abortion procedures which could result in death. That is literally the only thing that comes as a result of abortion being illegal. You really think someone who wants an abortion isn't going to get one because it's illegal? ROFL. Yeah, just like nobody smokes pot because thats illegal too.

Besides, I don't see how a fetus is considered alive. Is it animated flesh? Sure is. Is it a concious being? Not at all. People believe that it's a life from the moment it's concieved, but guess what? That's a religious belief. And last time I checked, just as the other thread stated, there is a seperation between church and state for a reason.

Someone present me with an argument as to what sort of positive result could come from abortion being illegal?
 
Are we just going to ignore the fact that a woman is a living, feeling, thinking person of her own who doesn't deserve to be forced into a pregnancy?
By making abortion illegal, women everywhere, no matter what their situation will be forced into keeping a pregnancy they don't want.

It's not always just a simple, I got pregnant and I don't want it. There are so many reasons a woman would feel the need to get an abortion. Some that can't really be argued against.

Are we going to ignore the fact that it's completely hypocritical to say you're taking the choice away from the woman when you're also taking the choice away from the child?

All reasons I've ever heard supporting abortion are, and I don't mean to offend, selfish. A woman keeping a pregnancy that she doesn't want is not as bad as killing another human being, especially one so vulnerable.

And I can gurantee you, I can argue against any reason.

On the illegal thing- I'm not exactly saying abortion should be illegal, I was more trying to prove a point that abortion is equal to murder when I said that. I know it didn't come of that way.

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Dragon
 
Are we going to ignore the fact that it's completely hypocritical to say you're taking the choice away from the woman when you're also taking the choice away from the child?

It isn't a child. Children and babies, are not involved in abortions at all. An embryo, and fetus are used. The terminology is important here, as often child and baby are used as propaganda. No one can kill a child. But in an abortion, a child isn't killed. The fetus, doesn't have rights. And doesn't think or feel anything.

All reasons I've ever heard supporting abortion are, and I don't mean to offend, selfish. A woman keeping a pregnancy that she doesn't want is not as bad as killing another human being, especially one so vulnerable.

Selfish? So a woman who has just been raped, and found out she is pregnant, is selfish? It's selfish that she doesn't want a piece of her rapist in her for 9 months? And then doesn't want to have to look the child in the eyes after birth for fear of what she might see?


And I can gurantee you, I can argue against any reason.

As I said above. Rape. Something I will not stop debating about. How is it fair to force a woman into a pregnancy, when she didn't even consent to the sex in the first place?

Ectopic pregnancies etc. The fetus has no chance at life anyway. And the woman is also at risk of death. Hoe can abortions not be used here?

On the illegal thing- I'm not exactly saying abortion should be illegal, I was more trying to prove a point that abortion is equal to murder when I said that. I know it didn't come of that way.

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Dragon

Isn't the definition of pro life to want abortion illegalized? I mean, I know pro choicers who hate the idea of abortion, and would never get one, yet respect that a woman should choose what's best for herself.
 
It isn't a child. Children and babies, are not involved in abortions at all. An embryo, and fetus are used. The terminology is important here, as often child and baby are used as propaganda. No one can kill a child. But in an abortion, a child isn't killed. The fetus, doesn't have rights. And doesn't think or feel anything.

Fine, I'll call it an embryo or a fetus, though I think it's not an important issue what we call it, especially because nobody here is using those words as propaganda. I think you can get the picture of what I'm talking about if I use words like child or baby. It's just what I'm used to saying.


Selfish? So a woman who has just been raped, and found out she is pregnant, is selfish? It's selfish that she doesn't want a piece of her rapist in her for 9 months? And then doesn't want to have to look the child in the eyes after birth for fear of what she might see?

Believe me, I can understand where you're coming from. I know, I know it was NOT the woman's choice to get pregnant in the case of rape, but how can we blame it on the baby- or sorry the embryo or whatever you want to call it? Yes the way it was concieved was horrible, but it had no choice in that either. And I'm sorry, I know how horrible it sounds (and I feel really bad for saying this), but even in the case you presented it is sort of selfish because to be selfish is to be concerned with yourself, and in what you said it's obvious the woman is concerned for herself, not that I am blaming her for that or trying to put her in the wrong because again, it's not her fault and it's perfectly reasonable that she think about herself in times like that.

Also, an interesting fact when discussing this is that the majority of women that are raped and become pregnant (and that is VERY rare) do choose to keep their child.

As I said above. Rape. Something I will not stop debating about. How is it fair to force a woman into a pregnancy, when she didn't even consent to the sex in the first place?

Like I said before, it's also not fair to blame that on the baby. Gah sorry, I just can't get used to using words like "fetus" and "embryo."

Ectopic pregnancies etc. The fetus has no chance at life anyway. And the woman is also at risk of death. Hoe can abortions not be used here?

I knew it. I knew you'd bring that up, and yes I guess I can say that an abortion could be used there. Guess I should use words like "all" more carefully. :p I'll correct myself and say, "almost."

Isn't the definition of pro life to want abortion illegalized? I mean, I know pro choicers who hate the idea of abortion, and would never get one, yet respect that a woman should choose what's best for herself.

Yes I know it is, and I'm still kind of iffy about my opinion on that. So I guess I'm pro-kind of-life, because I still am very much against abortion in ALMOST all cases.

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Dragon
 
Its IS murder. Period. fucking period. Once the egg connects with the sperm, and creates a human being, then thats what it is. Dont give me shit about oh its someones right to choose. No. Your right to choose was choosing to have sex in the first place. Now its not YOUR choice anymore, becuase its someone ELSES life, who cant speak for themselves. Im sure if they could, they would tell you they would like to live. My mother was a teenage mom, and my dad bounced when he found out she was pregnant. A typical abortion situation.

I know I wouldve said id like to llive had I been able to speak. Im glad my mother didnt murder me. Which is what it is. Legalized murder.
 
Fine, I'll call it an embryo or a fetus, though I think it's not an important issue what we call it, especially because nobody here is using those words as propaganda. I think you can get the picture of what I'm talking about if I use words like child or baby. It's just what I'm used to saying.

I know, it;s just when someone says and you're killing a baby, it sounds awful, compared to killing an embryo. I know that's what you've always said, so if you want to continue that's obviously fine, that's just how I see it.


Believe me, I can understand where you're coming from. I know, I know it was NOT the woman's choice to get pregnant in the case of rape, but how can we blame it on the baby- or sorry the embryo or whatever you want to call it?

The blame is in no way being passed to the fetus in this. There's only one person to blame, and that's the bastard that did it in this first place. But I feel a hell of a lot more for the woman who is trying to come to terms with this happening to her, than a fetus that has no idea.

Yes the way it was concieved was horrible, but it had no choice in that either. And I'm sorry, I know how horrible it sounds (and I feel really bad for saying this), but even in the case you presented it is sort of selfish because to be selfish is to be concerned with yourself, and in what you said it's obvious the woman is concerned for herself, not that I am blaming her for that or trying to put her in the wrong because again, it's not her fault and it's perfectly reasonable that she think about herself in times like that.

She has every right to think about herself in this circumstance. It's not selfishness, everyone has a right, especially in this position, to do exactly what they feel is right for themselves. And I know the fetus did no wrong in this, but neither did the woman. And as I said earlier. Something that is thinking and feeling for itself, or something that doesn't even know of it's own existence?

Also, how is it fair, after being forced into sexual intercourse, to be forced into a pregnancy?

Also, an interesting fact when discussing this is that the majority of women that are raped and become pregnant (and that is VERY rare) do choose to keep their child.

And those women have my utmost respect. Because i would never be able to do it. No lie, if I had to keep my rapists baby I think I'd have killed myself.
But the option should still be there to the few women who do want the abortion.

Like I said before, it's also not fair to blame that on the baby. Gah sorry, I just can't get used to using words like "fetus" and "embryo."

As I said, it's up to you which words you use, I've explained why I feel the 'technical' words are better, but if you think differently, it's only a word at teh end of the day.


I knew it. I knew you'd bring that up, and yes I guess I can say that an abortion could be used there. Guess I should use words like "all" more carefully. :p I'll correct myself and say, "almost."

I knew this would be of your opinion, because you seemed to have common sense lol. On a different forum I was on, a girl said a woman would be a bad mother if she wouldn't die for her fetus. She said this to a woman already a mother to 1. Would she not be a bad mother if she left her actual child without a mother? Sorry kind of gone into a little rant there, but you see what I mean.

Yes I know it is, and I'm still kind of iffy about my opinion on that. So I guess I'm pro-kind of-life, because I still am very much against abortion in ALMOST all cases.

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Dragon

Ah okay then.
 
Its IS murder. Period. fucking period. Once the egg connects with the sperm, and creates a human being, then thats what it is. Dont give me shit about oh its someones right to choose. No. Your right to choose was choosing to have sex in the first place. Now its not YOUR choice anymore, becuase its someone ELSES life, who cant speak for themselves. Im sure if they could, they would tell you they would like to live. My mother was a teenage mom, and my dad bounced when he found out she was pregnant. A typical abortion situation.

I know I wouldve said id like to llive had I been able to speak. Im glad my mother didnt murder me. Which is what it is. Legalized murder.

It's not legalized murder. For someone to be murdered, they need to be ALIVE. A fetus is NOT alive. Scientifically, a human being is not alive until they come out of the womb. Look it up. It's only your BELIEF that it's a human being.
 
Its IS murder. Period. fucking period. Once the egg connects with the sperm, and creates a human being, then thats what it is.

No way. It isn't even close to murder. If I told you I'd had an abortion, would you call me a murderer? Dictionary.com states murder as the following.

1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
–verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.

Now name me on of these abortion is similar to.

Dont give me shit about oh its someones right to choose. No. Your right to choose was choosing to have sex in the first place.

This is incredibly ignorant on so many levels. The first being, do you think it;s an ideal world where everyone who has sex has consented to it? No. Rape exists. What happens then? When the woman didn't choose to have sex in the first place.

Also, since when is consenting to sex automatically consenting to pregnancy?

Now its not YOUR choice anymore, becuase its someone ELSES life, who cant speak for themselves. Im sure if they could, they would tell you they would like to live. My mother was a teenage mom, and my dad bounced when he found out she was pregnant. A typical abortion situation.

Good for her. She was strong enough to hold it together. I have respect for her. Yet not all women are like that. And the situation could be worse.

I know I wouldve said id like to llive had I been able to speak. Im glad my mother didnt murder me. Which is what it is. Legalized murder.

See above.
 
Ok, so what exactly is considered alive to you Xfear?? somthing that is breathing, eating, and growing isnt alive??? I could give a fuck what science says. Everyone can go ahead and use that to clear their conscience though I guess.

1.the killing of a human being characterized by deliberation or premeditation. Sounds like an abortion to me. You are ignorant for acting like I dont understand rape exists. No shit. Its still not your life. Its the now created life, that has no voice. whether it was brought by rape or not, it should be YOUR choice to say if that person wouldnt want to be alive?? I belive in most cases they would. Stop being so selfish as speaking in a "woe is me" tyoe manner, becuase thats what it is. You keep talking about having to deal with a pregnancy....well whats 9 months of a pregnancy compared to stopping an entire life from happening??

Erm, consenting to sex is consenting to a pregnancy EVERY time you do it, becuase thats physiologically what sex EXISTS for. iTs for reproduction, so therefore, when you have sex, you are engaging in the act of reproduction.
 
I know, it;s just when someone says and you're killing a baby, it sounds awful, compared to killing an embryo. I know that's what you've always said, so if you want to continue that's obviously fine, that's just how I see it.

You know what I meant by "baby" and yeah it sounded awful because it's true- abortion is awful. It just sounds better when you say "embryo" in my honest opinion because that makes it seem...not human.

The blame is in no way being passed to the fetus in this. There's only one person to blame, and that's the bastard that did it in this first place. But I feel a hell of a lot more for the woman who is trying to come to terms with this happening to her, than a fetus that has no idea.

I just think it's horrible that the fetus, who has no idea, would be killed because of that. It doesn't make the rape dissapear. With or without the baby the woman still would remember the rape for the rest of her life.

She has every right to think about herself in this circumstance. It's not selfishness, everyone has a right, especially in this position, to do exactly what they feel is right for themselves. And I know the fetus did no wrong in this, but neither did the woman. And as I said earlier. Something that is thinking and feeling for itself, or something that doesn't even know of it's own existence?

I'm sorry, that is pretty much the definition of selfishness, even if it's okay in this case to be selfish, it doesn't change the fact that that's what it is.

And I don't like how you keep saying that it's okay to abort the fetus just because it doesn't realize its own existence. Neither do small babies or children until they grow up (at least most don't), but that doesn't mean it's okay to kill them either.

Also, how is it fair, after being forced into sexual intercourse, to be forced into a pregnancy?

If the woman decides to keep the baby than that's not force. I never said anything about forcing raped women to keep the pregnancy, though in my mind I feel as if it's the right thing to do (not the forcing part the keeping the pregnancy part).

I knew this would be of your opinion, because you seemed to have common sense lol. On a different forum I was on, a girl said a woman would be a bad mother if she wouldn't die for her fetus. She said this to a woman already a mother to 1. Would she not be a bad mother if she left her actual child without a mother? Sorry kind of gone into a little rant there, but you see what I mean.

Yeah I wouldn't ever say that. Life is precious, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to keep it.

Flames Out
Dragon
 
Ok, so what exactly is considered alive to you Xfear?? somthing that is breathing, eating, and growing isnt alive??? I could give a fuck what science says. Everyone can go ahead and use that to clear their conscience though I guess.

See, thats your problem right there. You don't care about the science, you base your opinion solely on your own moral standards. Well guess what? You can't legalize morality; not gonna happen.

Abortion scientifically is not murder, and thats the end of the conversation. Anything you have to say in response is simply YOUR opinion, and opinions don't create laws. There is a seperation between church and state, and what you're saying right now is "fuck that seperation".

You don't like abortion? Too bad. It's not your body. It's not your life. And it's not your decision. No one is forcing you or anyone else to get an abortion. But to make it illegal does nothing except create more and more problems.

Give me one reason as to why abortion should be illegal.

1.the killing of a human being characterized by deliberation or premeditation. Sounds like an abortion to me.

Except that a fetus IS NOT a human being.

Erm, consenting to sex is consenting to a pregnancy EVERY time you do it, becuase thats physiologically what sex EXISTS for. iTs for reproduction, so therefore, when you have sex, you are engaging in the act of reproduction.

Then why do condoms exist if consenting to sex is consenting to pregnancy?

Exactly.
 

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