WWE Semi Finals: Tables, Ladders, and Chairs: Bret Hart vs. Mick Foley

[It's...Baylariat!]

I'm fucking doing it, because it's the only match Foley can possibly have a chance of winning. People seem to think Bret Hart is the second coming of Jesus Christ in pink and black when it comes to wrestling. While I don't doubt his wrestling ability, I do doubt that he would win a match with Mick Foley in an environment that favors the man of 1000 faces. I WILL pick Foley to win this, simply because of the match style. Nothing else. Hart can wrestle and he can submit you, but the thing is, submissions would be a moot point when you have a chair being knocked across your skull. Foley can take as much punishment as needed to win this match, because Hart will slip up. He'll get DDT'd on a chair and be knocked out for a three count.

In a cage match, I'd pick Hart, in an Ultimate X, I'd pick Hart. In a TLC environment, I pick Foley. Foley goes over in the biggest upset in the tourney.

 

[Jonny B]

I'm mainly voting for Bret Hart, because no one is giving him credit for being capable of dealing with Mick Foley in a hardcore element.

Thats because he cant... he really cant.

Mania 13, Hart took Austin to the limit and beat the ever loving shit out of him. Hart also won, mind you.

So he took Austin to the limit, Austin is known for being tough but he isn't exactly held in the same esteem when it comes to actual proper Hardcore Matches.

In the end, not only did Bret Hart come out the winner - he also came out without a scratch on him, and Austin came out with a re-arranged face, covered in massive amounts of blood, and a loser to boot. Conclusion? Bret Hart can handle the hardcore elements, from even the baddest of brawlers.

All that proves is that Hart is tough enough to beat Steve Austin in a Brawl, it doesn't prove that Hart can match Foley when it comes to this sort of environment.... I'm not saying that Hart couldn't put up one hell of a fight but Foley is by far the stronger when it comes to knowing a Hardcore type of environment it may well be a TLC match but anything is legal here and that plays right into Foley.

Add that to the fact that Bret Hart has been involved in a ladder match, and has WON that 'said' ladder match - Bret Hart should have the advantage in this element as well. He knows how to use the ladder to his advantage, whereas Foley just understands how to inflict limited damage.

Again, everything is legal... Foley can bust out anything he wants here. Hart may be experienced in Ladder Matches, but he has not come across someone like Foley in this kind of environment before. Hart is quicker and smarter but the amount of punishment Foley can dish out may negate any advantage both of these things have.

I'm not saying Hart is hardcore, nor am I saying Foley couldn't kill Hart based off knowing how to beat him to death..

Then what are you saying? Foley is better in this type of match.

but I am saying, to all those same whiners and complainers that say Foley isn't getting credit for stamina - well, Bret Hart isn't getting credit for being able to wrestle in violent, hardcore elements. So we're back to square one, which I might add also points to Hart having the advantage.

Thats because what Hart has done is not even close to what Foley has done in this type of environment. The same can be said that Foley is not half the technical wrestler Hart is, but I think having experience in this kind of environment gives more of an advantage than speed and technical prowess ever could. Put them in a Submissions or an Iron Man match and this isn't even close, but the factors that make Hart so strong in those matches are completely negated in this type of match.

 

[Skillz]

If Mick Foley is so good in these types of situations, then why the fuck does he always lose in them? People are getting confused with "being good in gimmick matches" and "ability to take lots of punishment". Those two things are not the same, because if he was good in this environment, he would have won more often. HIAC against Taker, he lost. I Quit against Rock, he lost. Street Fight and HIAC against Triple H, he lost them both. Hardcore against Orton, he lost. Hardcore against Edge, he lost. Etc, etc.

Now let's compare that to Bret Hart. He didn't compete in many gimmick matches in his career, but when he did, he almost always won. Ladder Match against HBK, he won. Cage Match against Owen, he won. No Holds Barred against Diesel, he won. I Quit against Austin, he won.

Foley almost always loses when it matters the most, especially in gimmick matches. He's great at taking punishment, but he sucks at getting the job done. Bret Hart is also great at taking punishment, but the difference is, he knows how to win. If people are basing their vote on kayfabe, Bret Hart should be the clear winner, without any doubt. Hart is faster, way smarter, and wins a lot more often than Foley does.

Foley is one of the great legends in this business, but is he as great as Hart? Simple answer, no. So if people want to vote based on who was better, again vote for Hart.

 

[Shocky]

You can't discredit Foley, you know why, because those matches you just listed, came years and years after Foley's prime, yet he was able to push the biggest stars in the business to their limits, and force them to become something else in order to beat Mick. Mick Foley brings the best out of everyone he is in the ring with, yes, he loses, but it doesn't mean that he's bad.

This match favors Mick Foley in the fact that Foley doesn't have to worry about keeping Bret on the mat for a 3 count. No, all Foley has to do is something sick and twisted enough to incapacitate the Hitman so he can climb a ladder. I've been more impressed with Foley in Ladder matches then i have the Hitman, and since I doubt the Big Show is going to choke Foley off the top of a ladder in this match, my vote goes to Foley.

 

[Jonny B]

People are getting confused with "being good in gimmick matches" and "ability to take lots of punishment".

Shocky pretty much addressed everything else in your post so I won't go near that and just repeat what he said. I picked this line out though because it's the reason Foley takes this. The more I see people post that Foley cant do it and their reasons the more it seems like he probably would do it. Foley not only has the ability to take an insane amount of punishment and get back up, but he has the ability to inflict an insane amount of punishment on his opponent... sure it would usually result in him being equally as punished but it's Foley's ability to get up from it that gives him the edge here, if he puts Hart through a flaming table wrapped in barbed wire, no matter how slow he moves he will get to the top of the ladder before Hart gets up. Hart will be able to inflict pain on Foley, but he wont be able to keep him down long enough to get to the top of the ladder and that's what matters here.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I gotta go Hart here. Though Foley has more experience in gimmick matches, it is surpassed by his experience in losing said matches. He takes extreme risks way too often, and usually it leads to his downfall. Bret rarely makes costly mistakes like this, not to mention Foley would take way more damage than Hart. Its hard for me to go against Will and his superb persuasion ability. He could convince me to join the Taliban.

 

[LigerBomb]

Mrs. Foley's baby boy takes this one. Quite simply put, Mick knows he's fat, Mick knows he's slow, therefore while Bret may be thinking about "taking out the legs" Mick will be thinking about "taking out Bret, period". Many will think Mick will need an inordinately long time to climb that ladder. I don't agree, as even the most out of shape people can put one foot in front of the other. Not to mention he is capable of scaling a chain link fence well enough in HiaC matches to prove he's not as sloth like as people seem to believe. Anyway, my point being, Mick will get that long time by hitting Bret in the head -and body- repeatedly with Tables, Ladders, Chairs, Flaming Barby and whatever else he can pull from under that ring apron. Kayfabe, non Kayfabe, Bret's head, can and will, give out to cranium cracking blows.
On the topic of Bret Hart being "hardcore"... We're basically comparing a High School curriculum to a Doctorate Program. Dr. Foley has a PhD in pain. He is ridiculously more knowledgeable and experienced in taking and giving punishment than Mr. Hart could even begin to imagine. The technical prowess and finesse of Hart simply gets put down by the sadistic abuse of repeated blunt force trauma.

FOLEY
T
W

 

[Thriller Ant]

Hart is going to win this one. Everyone is making the case that Foley is too fat, Hart will take out his legs, Foley will be too focused on kicking Bret's ass, etc. My argument is the simple fact the Foley almost never wins the big stage gimmick matches.

HIAC vs. The Undertaker: Loss
Texas Death Match vs. Vader: Loss
1st Ever Buried Alive Match vs. Undertaker: Loss
Defending the WWF Title in an I Quit Match vs. The Rock: Loss
Empty Arena Match vs. The Rock: Win
Last Man Standing Match vs. The Rock: Draw
Ladder Match vs. The Rock: Loss
Street Fight vs. Triple H: Loss
HIAC vs. Triple H: Loss
Hardcore Match vs. Randy Orton: Loss
(I got all of these from Wikipedia, sorry about the lack of dates but they aren't all in there)

Foley is great at looking good in these matches, but he is even better at giving his opponent the "how the hell did he win that match?" rub. Foley will put Hart through hell, but Bret will climb the ladder and win.

 

[a0161613]

This will never be an easy win for either and everyone who reckons that either win easily is clueless.

Remembering the rules of this tournament, votes based on peoples prime. Foley's prime was when he was fat or crippled or handicapped. At his WWF peak he was a lean 280 lbs (guess) and took two of the best, HBK and Undertaker to the absolute limit. He was never quick but he took pain and punishment and kept going regardless.

For a guy that sent through barbed wire, took thirteen of the hardest chair shots in wrestling history and gone through C4 gimmick matches, the sharpshooter isn't going to have the same crippling effect that it did on others.

Bret's experience in ladder matches is neglible at best. He did nothing significant in these matches. There is no question that he could utilise the weapons well but Foley is so much better with weapons to utilise. It is no coincidence that Foleys' best matches happened in this gimmick environment; he would revel in this and would enjoy putting Bret through hell.

Hart is awesome but he comes up short here, thanks to the combination of opponent and gimmick. To summarise, there is no doubt for me that the gimmick wins this for Foley.

 

[ZEUS]

I can't believe anyone is voting Foley here. He is one of my favorites, but come on. He was a very forgettably main eventer, having some of the most awful world title reigns ever, and losing out in many attempts to win the big one. Yes, he is hardcore, but in case you have never watched a Foley match, his "hardcore" ability comes from his willingness to get his ass whooped, not his ability to dish out pain. His attempts to use weapons backfire more often than they work, he always takes a stupid big bump, and would again in this match. I picture Foley on top of the ladder, Hart knocking it down and Foley flying over the top rope and through half a dozen tables. Yes, Foley might get back up, but long after Hart has climbed the ladder and won the match. Bret Hart was just too good for Mick Foley. Foley NEVER beat somebody as skilled as The Hitman, regardless of the match type.

 

[LigerBomb]

I can't believe anyone is voting Foley here. He is one of my favorites, but come on. He was a very forgettably main eventer,

So, forgettable that when it was revealed on Nitro that Foley would win the belt on Raw later the same night, people imediatley switched over to watch. And also apparently forgetable enough to execute the highest rated segment in Raw history with the Rock with "This is your life".

having some of the most awful world title reigns ever and losing out in many attempts to win the big one.

so awful that his bout vs. The Rock was voted "Match of the Year".

Yes, he is hardcore, but in case you have never watched a Foley match, his "hardcore" ability comes from his willingness to get his ass whooped, not his ability to dish out pain.

Actually you should watch some of Foley's death matches and then re think your notion that he doesn't know how to dish out pain.

His attempts to use weapons backfire more often than they work, he always takes a stupid big bump, and would again in this match. I picture Foley on top of the ladder, Hart knocking it down and Foley flying over the top rope and through half a dozen tables.

Ok, well I picture Foley making an omlete out of Hart's brain with a chair, completely immobilizing the man and then procuring the belt/breifcase/whatever from off the hook.

Yes, Foley might get back up, but long after Hart has climbed the ladder and won the match.

Foley would do so much damage to himself and Bret that the only man who could ever even hope to stand up would be Mick thus allowing him to capture the prize.

Bret Hart was just too good for Mick Foley. Foley NEVER beat somebody as skilled as The Hitman, regardless of the match type.

Foley was good enough to win his 3rd Championship after beating Steve Austin and HHH in a triple threat match.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I think I got another reason Foley loses this match. Though it baffles me that anyone actually thinks he wins this. The past couple rounds he was in, he CLEARLY should not have won, and since you delusional people somehow think he's favored here, he also might feel the same way. Every time Foley thinks hes the favorite, he loses. He takes one ******ed and fucks himself over. Someone used the HIAC bumps as an example of his stamina. But he usually took about 20 minutes to get his ass back up. Bret would already be in the shower.

 

[Hacksaw Highway]

Foley. I always have, and always will, love Bret, and he is the better wrestler, but Foley wins in this type of match. Sure, Bret brought the ladder match to WWE, but he was never a specialist at it; neither was Foley, but he was a specialist in taking inhuman amounts of pain and punishment and then getting up. Of course, Bret could win; if he was able to get the Sharpshooter in for long enough, he could damage Foley's already bad legs and back long enough to make him physically unable to climb the ladder, but I don't see it happeneing. Foley.

 

[Jonny B]

So as Foley is currently down by 11 votes as I write this I felt the need to put together another post arguing why he can, and should win this.

Experience

Foley is a million miles ahead of Bret in terms of experience in this kind environment where there are no rules, the only thing that makes this any different than a regular Hardcore/No Holds Barred match is that there is a prize hanging above the ring which one of the wrestlers has to get in order to win this match. Other than that it’s the same as the countless number of other matches Foley has had, and Hart has not had. Surely this gives the edge to Foley in this one, I’ll accept that over his career Foley has had mixed luck in big times matches, but he has won just as many as he has lost and when he has lost usually it is against someone who is just as or went on to become as accomplished as him in this kind of match. There is absolutely no arguing this, no way no how can this point be argued.

Ability to take Stupid Amounts of Pain

Yes it’s a reason that’s been done to death. But I don’t think people can really grasp just how much punishment Foley can take and carry on afterwards. Foley was thrown from the top of a cell and still managed to not only get up, but then scale the cell again (and this was before they put holes in the cage to make it easier) but take another ridiculous bump and still wrestle on for another good ten minutes. How the hell could Hart ever hope to put Foley down for long enough to climb the ladder? I mean I know Foley did take a fair bit of time to get up from the HIAC bump, but that could quite possibly be the hardest bump in WWE History given to him by one of the most brutal wrestlers ever to grace a WWE ring, do you think Hart could do something like that to Foley? I really don’t, so if Hart cant go far enough to actually try and kill Foley he wont be able to put him down long enough. That’s two points in one there, to summarise it, firstly it takes a lot to put Foley down, secondly Hart would have to try and kill Foley to put him down long enough and I don’t think he is vicious enough to do that.

Viciousness

Following on from the pervious point, is how vicious Foley can be. Do you really think Hart has what it takes to light a table on fire and not only put his opponent but himself through it? Really? He doesn’t. Do you really think Hart is vicious enough to get a 2 x 4 and wrap barbed wire around it, and then set it on fire? Really? No he doesn’t, but guess who does…. Foley does. Now I hear people crying “but they always backfire on him” bollocks, and even if it does read the paragraph above and that negates that argument.

Supposed Weaknesses

Everyone is right when they say Hart is faster and technically more gifted than Foley, no question. But those weaknesses are null and void here, all the holds in the world from Hart will not put Foley down long enough, Hart will have to take it to the next level he wont be able to out-wrestle Foley to win this match he will have to beat him to death and if that’s the strategy he takes here it takes away one of the biggest advantages Hart has over Foley. People seem to think that Foley is some sloth when it comes to the ring, but he isn’t look again at what I wrote about him climbing the cell in 98, if he can dot that after being thrown off the top of the cell he can put Hart down long enough to go and get the prize hanging from the ceiling.

This match favours Foley, it not only favours his strengths but it also takes away Harts strengths and will force him to work a style in which Foley is not only familiar but revels in. Don’t get me wrong there is no way this would be a cake walk but I fail to see how anyone thinks Hart takes Foley with ease here. For those people that say Foley never wins the big one, three WWF Championships would beg to differ. For those of you that haven’t voted yet, I urge you to vote Foley.