WWE Semi Finals: Tables, Ladders, and Chairs: Bret Hart vs. Mick Foley

[Shocky]

The following match is a semi-final match of the WWE Region, from Madison Square Garden, in New York City.

Tables, Ladders, and Chairs: Thank you Wiki

The TLC match is a variation of a ladder match with a particular emphasis on the use of the three most popular "foreign objects" in wrestling. The TLC match usually pits three or more tag teams against each other, but is available for a one-on-one match. The goal is to acquire the item (usually championship belts) which starts the match suspended above the ring. A TLC match can be seen as a more complicated ladder match, where tables and chairs, along with ladders, can also be used as legal foreign objects. This, compared to the relative ages of the wrestlers involved, gives the match an atmosphere similar to that of a hardcore match.

So pretty much, everythings legal, climb the ladder, retrieve the briefcase, and move onto the WWE Finals.


Bret The Hitman Hart

vs.

Mick Foley

 

[NSL]

I'll reiterate what I said in the general discussion. Foley could win this match, but his sole purpose is to make Hart look like a God, and push him through the next few rounds. Hart's whole gameplan, is about taking out his opponents legs, and he'll actually have some help in this match, with everything being legal. There's no way Foley can climb a ladder after suffering through a Sharpshooter.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

This is a match where brutality alone cannot win it for you, and Foley's specialty items like the barbed wire bat are not in play. TLC matches involve just that - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs.

Hart is in significantly better shape than Mick is, and I think he will be able to wthstand the early onslaught, keep a poorly balanced Foley off the ladder for the most part, and wear him down. Then, he'll hit the leg with a chair, slap the firgure four against the ring post on, and Foley is done.

Hart wins.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yeah this is Hart's. In this match everything is based on speed and violence. Fole wins the violence part, but Hart wins the more important speed part. Foley can't run at all with any kind of speed and while Hart never set the world on fire with his speed, it was certainly adequate. Hart wins this as he lasts longer than Foley and climbs faster.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Mick proved admirably throughout his career that he was not afraid to use the weapons listed in the very name of this match. He also proved his willingness to take abuse from these weapons and still get up to fight on.

Bret less so. I'm not saying he wouldn't use the weapons to weaken the knee, because if he's smart he would, I'm just saying he wouldn't do it as readily as Mick

Violence may not be the answer, but it's sure as anything going to give Mrs Foley's baby boy a fighting chance at defeating a man who could lay on a technical masterclass as easily as Mick could bankrupt an AYCE buffet restaurant.

Possible scenario... Bret climbs the ladder, Foley stumbles into it (he's a big guy... it's going down), ladder falls and the Excellence goes through a flaming table. Foley doesn't have to be fast to climb a ladder, Bret has to be fast to recover and extinguish himself.

 

[Luther_Hull]

This is a match where brutality alone cannot win it for you, and Foley's specialty items like the barbed wire bat are not in play. TLC matches involve just that - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs.

Well, TLC is no DQ so in theory he could use his barbed wire bat. It won't matter though, Hart still wins. TLC requires a combination of athleticism and resilience, Foley has one of those, Hart has both. He's fitter, faster, stronger and he'll be able to use the ladder in more innovative ways than Foley.

Foley will take one hell of a beating and come back for more, and more, and more, but ultimately, he'll face the classic TLC fate of falling off a ladder into about four tables at ringside.

 

[SavageTaker]

Hart has my vote. He will take Foley out of the match before Foley takes himself out. This type of match is not who can be the most hardcore. It is who can keep his opponent down long enough to climb the ladder and retrieve the in this case briefcase. If this match was who can be the more hardcore wrestler then Foley would get my vote and I would not think it twice. But since it is not that type of match and it is who can keep his opponent down long enough to climb the ladder and retrieve the briefcase it makes me vote The Hitman. He is a way smarter wrestler than Foley is and knows exactly what to do in this type of match. Hart will target Foleys legs with his sharpshooter. Hart will climb the ladder when he has made sure that Foley will not be able to get back up.

Now some people are thinking Foley is way more Hardcore than Bret Hart and this match is in his favor and right up his alley because he will go hardcore on Hart and try to eliminate him. Well in case Hart doesn't eliminate Foley before he eliminates himself, may I remind you that Foley is willing to do anything hardcore to try and eliminate his opponent. That will be his downfall because he will do something that he thinks will work but ultimately cost him the match. Even if he has the match won he will still continue just a little more. He maybe will climb a ladder and jump off of it and go through a table that he had stacked and he had Hart on but Hart moved out of the way and avoid getting squished when Foley jumps off of the Ladder. Therefore Foley eliminates himself and either ways Hart wins this match and advances to the next round.

Vote Hart

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Ideally the sole purpose of winning a T.L.C match is to climb the ladder and retrieve the object at the top. Mick Foley wouldn't climb a ladder to grab anything at the top - so much as mainly climb up so far, only to jump off and inflict more damage and pain. Foley isn't the brightest crayon in the box.. but he is the darkest as far as inflicting pain and punishment goes.

NSL said it best. Bret Hart's main focus is to take out the legs, which is a very great game plan considering you need those things to climb a ladder - preferably in a hurry. Foley can out bash Hart, but another one of Hart's qualities is resiliency. He can take more punishment than most people would want to believe.

Hart's been in wars before, and none more grueling than the WrestleMania "I Quit" contest he had against Steve Austin. Hart didn't just win the contest, he flat-out beat the shit out of the so-called Toughest S.O.B in Wrestling.

I'm going Bret Hart all the way here. It still amazes me that Mick Foley's made it this far.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Foley '''could''' win this match if he changed his usual strategy. Foley loves to dish out punishment and he loves to do it in ways that make people gasp in awe and shock. If this were a "hardcore" type of match where pins get the win, I'd give it to Foley and not think twice about it. In this match, sheer and utter brutality won't necessarily get you the win. Foley is a very intelligent guy, it's just that he seems to throw reason and IQ out along with the baby and the bathwater too much in these settings. If he would use his head, maybe adopt some strategy, he could beat Bret Hart. Take any available weaponry and take out Hart's knees and back. He could still be effecient, brutal and tactical all at the same time.

The problem is that he won't. Foley revels in the carnage he dishes out, and sometimes has to endure himself as a result of his own efforts. While Bret is tougher than most give him credit for, he's also smart enough not to fight this "hardcore" fight on Foley's terms. Going toe to toe with Mick Foley would be suicide for him, so he'll use his head. He'll wind up doing what Mick Foley should and could do, take out the legs or the back and climb his way to victory. Hart will be bloody and bruised, he'll be tired, every inch of him will feel like he's been tortured, but he'll taste sweet victory when it's all said and done.

 

[jmt225]

Sometimes brains just out-does brutality and toughness, and this is definitely one of those cases.

I've stated it before in this tournament, but I'll state it again... Bret "The Hitman" Hart is without a doubt the smartest wrestler in the history of the business. That character never made stupid mistakes when he was in the ring, and always found a way to out smart his opponent and win. And I think in a Ladder Match, it takes smarts more so than brutality to find a way to keep your opponent down long enough so you can climb a Ladder and grab whatever it is you need to grab to win. Plus, you factor in the fact that Hart is loads faster than Foley, and even more powerful... there's no way he would ever lose this match.

And another reason to vote for Hart is simply because he's the Excellence of Execution and arguably the greatest worker of all time. His legacy in this business isn't matched by many, and Mick Foley, while awesome and has a great legacy in his own right, isn't one of them.

 

[JGlass]

There are two reasons Hart's going to win this match. The first one is of course, that he's going to take Foley's legs out from under him. Now, that would be hard to do if Foley is bashing his head in with a steel chair, but Hart is quicker and smarter than Foley. He'd take Foley out before Mick even touched steel. Then Hart would be the one to get his hands on the weapons first and then he'd brutalize Foley's legs. He could lock on the sharpshooter until Mick will be unable to stand, climb the ladder, and grab the gold. Secondly, and this was kind of included in the first part of this, Hart is just in better shape. Even if this is an even fight for a while, he can simply outlast Mich Foley. Once Mick Foley is huffing and puffing, Hart will still be able to put the hurt on Foley, and once he has the advantage, he'll end the match by taking Foley's legs out, climbing the ladder, and grabbing the belt/briefcase.

Another reason to vote for Hart is because personally, I think a Hart vs Angle match would be pretty damn cool. Vote Hart!

 

[justinsayne]

TLC matches involve just that - Tables, Ladders, and Chairs.

Umm, yeah your kinda wrong on this one, in Shockys thread staring post he says this...

So pretty much, everythings legal, climb the ladder, retrieve the briefcase, and move onto the WWE Finals.

That suggests Foley would be able to bust out the barbwire bat or any other weapon he so chooses

I don't think Foley is getting near the credit he deserves, the guy is a hardcore legend, he is a master of using weapons and taking insane amounts of punishment, he would be right at home in this match, the overrated Hart would get killed in this match, Foley would throw everything he has at him, he'll bash him in the head repeatedly with steel chairs, bust him open with the barbwire bat, use the ladder as an instrument of pain, and throw Bret through tabe after table, Bret is not as comfortable with weopns as Foley is, and Bret can't take near the pain Foley can take, I see this match ending with both guys climbing the ladder, and trading punches at the top of the ladder, until Foley finally manages to push Hart off the ladder and through a flaming table below, Foley reaches up, grabs the belt or what ever the fuck is hanging and climbs down the ladder and heads off to the next round

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Foley will give Hart of a hell of a fight because the match isn't restricted to tables, ladders, and chairs, and he can use whatever weapon he wants. However, I see Hart locking the Sharpshooter on Foley just enough to retrieve whatever is up there for the win. Hart would probably lock it on until Foley passes out but both are going through tables at somepoint during the match.

 

[tehblogger]

Frankly, I find it very hard to believe Foley got through The Ultimate Warrior. No way in hell does he get past Hart. Foley was great in hardcore, yes, but so was Hart (as Austin will testify), and this particular stipulation plays right to Hart's strengths. The Sharpshooter targets the legs and lower back: no way in hell does Foley get up a ladder after sitting in that for a couple of minutes. He doesn't have the power or technique to get out of the move once it's been applied (as Undertaker did), nor does he have the speed and agility to avoid being put down and locked in the move to start with. Bret all the way.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I don't WANT to vote against either of these guys. Foley is in his element here. The whole hardcore thing is his. Hart, not so much. However, Hart is amazing, a good enough wrestler to stop Foley's advantage getting too strong. I can see either of these guys winning. I'll sit on the fence for now, read a few other posts and then decide.

 

[Blade]

We're forgetting how much ladder experience Bret Hart has.
He's been winning ladder based matches since almost the start of his career, in Stampede.
And he brought the ladder match into WWE, and worked the first match with HBK.
He knows the strategies of a ladder match and he knows how to use the ladder as a weapon very well.
While I don't know about his Japan runs, I don't think Foley has ever been in a ladder match in America. If Bret Hart could survive some of the punishment Foley gives him long enough to lock in the sharp shooter, Bret would have it won. Foley isn't good enough technically to get out of the Sharpshooter, and there's no rope break.

This one goes to Bret Hart.

 

[justinsayne]

Foley will give Hart of a hell of a fight because the match isn't restricted to tables, ladders, and chairs, and he can use whatever weapon he wants.

Foley would give Hart a hell of a fight even if the match was only limited to Tables, Ladders, and Chairs, and Foley should win here, if this match were an Iron Man, Submission, 2 out of 3 falls, or some match like that then the edge would go to Hart, but it's not it's a TLC match, a match based heavily around the use of weapons something Foley specializes in, and Hart does not, if anything thisstipulation gives Foley the edge

However, I see Hart locking the Sharpshooter on Foley just enough to retrieve whatever is up there for the win. Hart would probably lock it on until Foley passes out but both are going through tables at some point during the match.

A.)It's not like Foley couldn't do the same to Hart, and lock in the Mandiable Claw until Hart passes out

B.)Hart is wrestling Foley not Tommy fucking Dreamer, the guy is no slouch, he excels in these type of situations, and would be more than capable of beating Hart in a match like this

For the love of Christ people really need to start giving Foley a hell of a lot more credit, the guy made a career out of wrestling gimmick matches, Hart didn't, he made a career out of wrestling matches that were technical masterpieces and bitching about getting screwed by Vince

Vote Foley!!

 

[Jonny B]

I dont get why Foley isn't getting any credit for his stamina, which would play a big part in a match like this. Foley has already shown he can take a huge amount of punishment and not only get up but continue fighting.... I'd like to cast your minds back to KOTR 98, Foley went off the Cell through the Announcers Table, got back up and still climbed back up the cell, so why cant he take a load of punishment and still climb the ladder? Foley has the ability to put Hart down for a long time, Hart has the ability to put Foley down as well, but I think the difference here may be that Foley has shown he has the ability to take an inhuman amount of punishment and still get back up and stand a chance. I am genuinely torn on this one, but I think the Hart landslide it's looking like is completely unfair.

 

[gd]

Mick Foley was born for matches like this. I don't care if Bret Hart is faster, he wouldn't be able to climb the ladder after the beating he takes from Foley. I don't think that Foleywould even let the ladder come into play until he has sufficiently beaten Hart using abarbed wire bat, chairs, tables, etc. All of which Foley is able to used better than Hart.

As it has been stated before, Foley has just as much stamina, if not more than Hart, and has had more experience and success than Hart in hardcore matches. Foley is also much more crazy and resciliant than Hart, which are very important in this type of match.I think that Hart is being completely overrated in this matchup, and Foley would be more than capable of winning this matchup.

 

[Tastycles]

Bret Hart has everything you need to win a ladder match: speed, resiliance, experience, innovation etc. Foley has some but not all of those key attributes. Foley isn't ever going to outwrestle Hart, but to out weapon him will also be difficult. Hart will be too quick for Foley to even leave the ring I imagine.

Foley should have lost in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds though, so I'm not holding my breath, but I imagine Bret Hart works on Foley's legs throughout the match then climbs the ladder and wins.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm mainly voting for Bret Hart, because no one is giving him credit for being capable of dealing with Mick Foley in a hardcore element. Leave it to the hardcore-addicts to push Foley to the moon, and bad mouth the technical king as not being able to fight back.

Mania 13, Hart took Austin to the limit and beat the ever loving shit out of him. Hart also won, mind you. In the end, not only did Bret Hart come out the winner - he also came out without a scratch on him, and Austin came out with a re-arranged face, covered in massive amounts of blood, and a loser to boot. Conclusion? Bret Hart can handle the hardcore elements, from even the baddest of brawlers.

Add that to the fact that Bret Hart has been involved in a ladder match, and has WON that 'said' ladder match - Bret Hart should have the advantage in this element as well. He knows how to use the ladder to his advantage, whereas Foley just understands how to inflict limited damage.

I'm not saying Hart is hardcore, nor am I saying Foley couldn't kill Hart based off knowing how to beat him to death.. but I am saying, to all those same whiners and complainers that say Foley isn't getting credit for stamina - well, Bret Hart isn't getting credit for being able to wrestle in violent, hardcore elements. So we're back to square one, which I might add also points to Hart having the advantage.

Vote Bret Hart!

 

[2012isbs]

I say Foley he's just insane and will do anything I picture a Double armed DDT off a ladder through a flaming table with a standing chair on top to be Hart's demise. Then foley will gett up first lock in the mandible claw and choke out hart tehn climb teh ladder in an awesome match.

 

[Tastycles]

Personally, I'm not giving credit to Foley for stamina because he doesn't have anything on Hart in that capacity. Hart's early career consisted of numerous 60 minute time limit draws and the like. I don't think Foley has ever gone beyond 30 minutes and won.

His long matches tend to involve him lying down for long periods as he recuperates. Hart has gone all out for over an hour, so I don't think there is a comparison stamina wise. It's true Hart has been in brutal environments.

I am currently endeavouring to find the video of Hart handing Mankind his arse on Shotgun. It was on 25 January 1997, for anyone interested.

 

[ZEUS]

My vote is solidly behind Bret Hart in this one. Bret has a history of ladder matches, so he knows them well...he was in many in Stampede wrestling, and was the one to bring the ladder match to WWE. Tables, he didn't use at all, but he was not opposed to using chairs in no dq environments. He would wrap a chair around Foley's leg, stomp on it a number of times, put the figure four on him around the ring post, and wait until Mick couldn't stand up anymore. Foley has no chance here, in my opinion.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Yea, ill go with Bret. I have always said, and will always say, Bret can be as brutal as anyone. He has superior experience to Foley in ladder matches, and is an overall smarter, better wrestler IMO. I can understand a vote for Foley, but ill be voting Bret Hart.