Will Chris Benoit ever be inducted in the the WWE Hall of Fame?

[4horses]

Ok, it seems that you and I are arguing completely different points. Your point has skewed somewhat off-topic and we need to bounce back quickly.

Actually it was your point... Not mine I just countered your point. Let me quote you.

The original poster asked is Chris Benoit SHOULD be inducted in the Hall of Fame. So, I will answer according to no one else's standards but the creators and moderators of the Hall of Fame; the WWE. If they can induct wrestlers like Koko and JYD, Chris Benoit would be a surefire inductee if it weren't for his past crimes.

See you brought up the WWE's criteria on inductions. Not I and then again here

So let's answer the question based on the way it SHOULD be answered:

Based on the WWE's criteria, should Benoit be entered into the HoF is he didn't murder his family?

And since you asked the question that got us 'off topic' I answered by saying that the WWE really doesn't seem to have any criteria at all. That's not getting off topic that's responding to a claim. You said that Benoit would be a surefire HOFer if it wasn't for the fact he murdered his family. I countered your claim. It's called debate, I gave logical and reasonalbe arguements. It's just anytime I bring a logical arguement to the table you say I'm 'going off topic'.

In my opinion to truly understand the topic and actually talk about it you have to address all parts of the system. One of those being that if Chris Benoit had not been a murderer that he still had to actually get into the hall of fame.

In other words: You said without doubt (surefire is the word you used) that he would be a Hall of famer because of his accomplishments without the murder. I countered by showing men (many at that) who have accomplished more that aren't hall of famers. And until they are, your point holds little water to me. He was by no means a surefire hall of famer if those other guys aren't in already. Again we are speaking on the fact of whether or not a person SHOULD be in the WWE hall of fame. Which means we have to use their criteria Which I have already shown is a little more than a little warped with FACTS.

The question is whether Benoit should ever be inducted in the HoF. You said that even if he didn't murder his family that he wouldn't deserve to be in it, anyway.

I mentioned that his accomplishments do far more than qualify him. You say they do not. That's fair.

And again I say there are far more deserving people that aren't. Meaning that Chris Benoit was far from being a surefire hall of famer.

But then you begin to speak about the WWE's twisted way of thinking about who they induct and who they don't. While I can agree that inducting guys like Koko B. Ware and Pete fucking Rose are pointless, you actually think that Lou Thesz and Savage's only reasons for not being in the HoF are because the WWE says so? This is WAY off. Here's why:

First of all, in order for someone to be inducted into the HoF, they have to agree to it. There are terms and conditions, a contract that needs to be signed for the appearence, and they have to agree to be forever recognized by the Hall of Fame. Therefore, it is NOT 100% the WWE's decision for members to be inducted or not. Case in point, the Ultimate Warrior turned down an induction this year. He's more than met our blurred criteria for qualification (in my opinion) and yet he decided to decline his ballot. And this is the WWE's fault? If I recall, the same thing happen with a few others that you mentioned earlier.

Valid point, never heard that Warrior turned it down. I don't claim to know EVERYTHING by any means. If Warrior doesn't want to be in that's his deal.

Secondly, you went off on a tangent about guys that currently aren't in the Hall of Fame when they should be. You claim that guys like Lou Thesz, Vader, and Ed Lewis aren't in, and yet Volkoff and Koko B. Ware are. In a way, you're right. But did you ever think about the fact that they can only induct a limited amount of members per year, and each annual grouping is inducted for a different mix of reasons? In other words, I highly doubt that Lou Thesz, Vade, and Ed Lewis aren't going to be in a future induction. Therefore, any argument that you make when comparing current inductees to men that haven't been inducted as of yet is completely unfair and baseless.

Okay so wait, vince is going through a list of guys that deserve to be in the Hall of fame and Koko and Pete Rose are higher on his list than Vader? Please explain to me why anyone would put in Koko before Lou Thesz. The first guys to go in should be the ones that have waited the longest and have done a hell of alot more than people like Koko. My personal opinion is that Lou Thesz will never be in and even if he did. Vince put Koko before Lou Thesz on his list of 'worthy' hall of famers. If you only have so many spots to fill which you claim shouldn't they be spots for people who actually contributed instead of your Pete Rose's? Again, your arguement is like saying that Ryan Leaf would be put into the NFL before Joe Montana. It's not unfair it's not baseless. Again, until every one of those guys who have had more storied and better careers than benoit are in. You can't say his accomplishments would be a 'SUREFIRE' way for him to get in. It's fact that it clearly isn't.

Lastly, you mention that Ric Flair was the only active member to be inducted, therefore mentioning Mick Foley and Sting is out of the question. Obviously, my point went about 17 miles above your head. I'm saying that these men would be inducted SOMEDAY. You basically said that Koko B. Ware and JYD are undeserving because guys like Lou Thesz aren't in yet. Did you ever stop and think about the fact that the WWE isn't choosing the order of inductees based upon who is better than the next or who made a bigger impact than the other?? Like I said earlier, Thesz and Lewis will probably be in someday (since order of inductions don't matter), but then again, so would Benoit if he didn't murder his family. Get it?

No what you said was that by my 'skewed' way of seeing things. That the JYD and Koko were better than Mandkind or Sting. See watch I'll quote you
AGAIN.

Well then according to this skewed way of thinking, JYD and Koko B. Ware are better than Sting, the Rock, Mick Foley... should I go on? .

I gave a reason why those two men weren't in the Hall of Fame. It because active wrestlers don't really get inducted. Especially wrestlers that don't work for Vince. Your point here was beyond nonsense. No one in their right mind would say that JYD or Koko B was better than Foley or Sting. But Vince apparently thinks that they are better than Thesz and Gotch and Lewis.

Did you ever stop and think about the fact that the WWE isn't choosing the order of inductees based upon who is better than the next or who made a bigger impact than the other?? Like I said earlier, Thesz and Lewis will probably be in someday (since order of inductions don't matter), but then again, so would Benoit if he didn't murder his family. Get it?

[/Quote]

Again the order has nothing to do with it. Rose in Thesz out. And as far as your other comment goes. you said that they will prolly be in someday... Ummm, that's far from surefire sir. And if you want to debate impact on the sport it's not close between them. Here's the deal, you change your thought process everytime I come up with anything to counter one of your arguements. The fact is this, I don't think every tom, dick, and half descent wrestler should be in the hall of fame. Benoit was just another midcarder, he had a couple of moments. He might have been in the HOF but he wouldn't have deserved it. Just because Koko and others that did nothing are in there doesn't mean you should put another non-worthy person in the HOF just for the fact. Chris Benoit wasn't a hall of famer, before he murdered his family, after he murdered his family, never once did he live up to the standards. Benoit shouldn't have been in no matter what.. Get it?

 

[CH David]

Actually it was your point... Not mine I just countered your point. Let me quote you.


See you brought up the WWE's criteria on inductions. Not I and then again here



And since you asked the question that got us 'off topic' I answered by saying that the WWE really doesn't seem to have any criteria at all. That's not getting off topic that's responding to a claim. You said that Benoit would be a surefire HOFer if it wasn't for the fact he murdered his family. I countered your claim. It's called debate, I gave logical and reasonalbe arguements. It's just anytime I bring a logical arguement to the table you say I'm 'going off topic'.

In my opinion to truly understand the topic and actually talk about it you have to address all parts of the system. One of those being that if Chris Benoit had not been a murderer that he still had to actually get into the hall of fame.

In other words: You said without doubt (surefire is the word you used) that he would be a Hall of famer because of his accomplishments without the murder. I countered by showing men (many at that) who have accomplished more that aren't hall of famers. And until they are, your point holds little water to me. He was by no means a surefire hall of famer if those other guys aren't in already. Again we are speaking on the fact of whether or not a person SHOULD be in the WWE hall of fame. Which means we have to use their criteria Which I have already shown is a little more than a little warped with FACTS.


And again I say there are far more deserving people that aren't. Meaning that Chris Benoit was far from being a surefire hall of famer.



Valid point, never heard that Warrior turned it down. I don't claim to know EVERYTHING by any means. If Warrior doesn't want to be in that's his deal.


Okay so wait, vince is going through a list of guys that deserve to be in the Hall of fame and Koko and Pete Rose are higher on his list than Vader? Please explain to me why anyone would put in Koko before Lou Thesz. The first guys to go in should be the ones that have waited the longest and have done a hell of alot more than people like Koko. My personal opinion is that Lou Thesz will never be in and even if he did. Vince put Koko before Lou Thesz on his list of 'worthy' hall of famers. If you only have so many spots to fill which you claim shouldn't they be spots for people who actually contributed instead of your Pete Rose's? Again, your arguement is like saying that Ryan Leaf would be put into the NFL before Joe Montana. It's not unfair it's not baseless. Again, until every one of those guys who have had more storied and better careers than benoit are in. You can't say his accomplishments would be a 'SUREFIRE' way for him to get in. It's fact that it clearly isn't.



No what you said was that by my 'skewed' way of seeing things. That the JYD and Koko were better than Mandkind or Sting. See watch I'll quote you
AGAIN.


I gave a reason why those two men weren't in the Hall of Fame. It because active wrestlers don't really get inducted. Especially wrestlers that don't work for Vince. Your point here was beyond nonsense. No one in their right mind would say that JYD or Koko B was better than Foley or Sting. But Vince apparently thinks that they are better than Thesz and Gotch and Lewis.

Again the order has nothing to do with it. Rose in Thesz out. And as far as your other comment goes. you said that they will prolly be in someday... Ummm, that's far from surefire sir. And if you want to debate impact on the sport it's not close between them. Here's the deal, you change your thought process everytime I come up with anything to counter one of your arguements. The fact is this, I don't think every tom, dick, and half descent wrestler should be in the hall of fame. Benoit was just another midcarder, he had a couple of moments. He might have been in the HOF but he wouldn't have deserved it. Just because Koko and others that did nothing are in there doesn't mean you should put another non-worthy person in the HOF just for the fact. Chris Benoit wasn't a hall of famer, before he murdered his family, after he murdered his family, never once did he live up to the standards. Benoit shouldn't have been in no matter what.. Get it?

I'm just going to quote this one as it is the latest one, get your attention. You don't really get it do you? You can have your opinion on this subject, but at this juncture, your thinking, as well as the WWE staff that chooses the inductees, is a bit skewed. Personally, I don't give a shit if you think he would get into the real Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame or not. This is the WWE Hall of Fame. You can think only the best of the best WWE Superstars should get in.

However, Vince McMahon does not give a shit what you think. Benoit gave his life to the business, showed it great respect, and unfortunately ended the life of him and his wife and child, due to his brain being scrambled by repeated open head weapon shots. He gave his everything into every match he performed, and Vince knew this. It doesn't matter if Savage or Lou Thesz aren't in the WWE HOF. If Vince doesn't want to recognize them, he doesn't have to. Plus, they are in the one that counts to a wrestler, the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame, which is the best of the best.

So Benoit would have been a surefire WWE Hall of Famer, had he not done what he did. Pro Wrestling Hall of Famer? Who knows. But your best of the best attitude is already in place where it counts. The WWE is for show and for people who Vince wants.

 

[4horses]

I'm just going to quote this one as it is the latest one, get your attention. You don't really get it do you? You can have your opinion on this subject, but at this juncture, your thinking, as well as the WWE staff that chooses the inductees, is a bit skewed.

So you admit that the WWE's thinking is skewed thank you.

Personally, I don't give a shit if you think he would get into the real Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame or not. This is the WWE Hall of Fame. You can think only the best of the best WWE Superstars should get in.

I do think that but I'm not basing my argument on my thinking. At least not completely. You surely are basing your opinion on that.

However, Vince McMahon does not give a shit what you think.

How dare you imply vince doesn't care about all of us in the WWE Universe. We line his pockets. I'm sure he has a place in his heart for all of us.

Benoit gave his life to the business, showed it great respect,

He showed the business great respect when he gave it a blackeye forever by killing two people.... Hmmm I find that hard to believe. He also showed it great respect by using roids and other drugs during his career as well I suppose? I could argue reasonably and logically (I tend to use that in my skewed way of thinking) that he showed the business no respect at all.

and unfortunately ended the life of him and his wife and child, due to his brain being scrambled by repeated open head weapon shots.

See I see somethings unfortunate about this. Ending his wife's and child's life yes. His not so much and btw, I don't totally by the arguement of repeated head shots being the reason. It's a theory it's far from being proven. Facts my friend please deal with those. You want to throw out a theory go ahead but don't state it as fact. Or say that it's your opinion. You may confuse some on here by stating things as facts that aren't proven.

He gave his everything into every match he performed, and Vince knew this.

That again is an opinion. Many people might think he didn't. I personally don't know I didn't watch every match in his career but if effort counts then Savage would be in before anyone else. He went over his matches many times before ever getting into the ring. So putting everything into matches clearly isn't the critera vince uses. If it was, I highly doubt that Hulk Hogan, who had proven (in Japan) that he had real wrestling skill would be in the Hall of Fame and he is. (Granted you could say this is an opinion but I'm basing it on in ring work. Which hardly anyone argues that Hogan's work in Japan was better than in the WWE)

It doesn't matter if Savage or Lou Thesz aren't in the WWE HOF. If Vince doesn't want to recognize them, he doesn't have to.

And IF Vince didn't want to recognize Benoit he wouldn't have had to. You're basing your opinion on the objective opinion of another human being. Meaning your trying to get into Vince's brain. You're trying to prove fact by saying that you somehow have the ability to know what vince would do. Which I'm guessing you really don't.

And yes it does matter if Savage and Thesz are in. Especially when a person claims that he'd be in based on his accomplishments. I showed people with more storied careers and higher accomplishments that aren't. Meaning that his agrument was faulty.

Also if vince didn't want to recognize benoit he wouldn't have to. If Benoit didn't kill his family he probably would've done something else that wasn't completely wonderful. I mean the guy killed his family it's not like he was a normal person.


Also before you say 'we're supposed to do this base this on his career' and not his personal life. I can't do that seeing as vince himself doesn't do that. (I.E Savage) Plus the fact that if you watch the raw after his death, it didn't seem like William Regal(who has worked with Benoit in various places) would've been too shocked that Benoit killed his family. Now granted I'm trying to see into Regal's thoughts but I am doing it with some insight into with the comments he made. You are basing yours on your opinions of what vince thought of someone AFTER their career ended(which is impossible since we don't know what would've become of Mr. Benoit.) Maybe just maybe, Chris Benoit was hiding something all of us never got to see.....

Plus, they are in the one that counts to a wrestler, the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame, which is the best of the best.

I want to argue this fact. It seemed to mean something to Ric Flair went he was crying on stage. And others have as well. And if it means enough to these guys to cry, I think(not a fact if course. ((plz don't bring up the fact flair came back. It's a nice counter point. But remember the fact that flair was active when he was inducted AND the fact that it still could mean alot to him even if he is coming back. He still wears his HOF ring as evidence I would submit for my thinking. )) it might mean something to the guys inducted.

So Benoit would have been a surefire WWE Hall of Famer, had he not done what he did.

No YOU believe he would've been. See again, you're reading into Vince's mind. You don't KNOW that he would've been a SUREFIRE hall of famer. It's what you THINK. And it's what you WANT everyone else to think. See you and D-man are trying to impose your thinking onto me. The problem is that your thinking is far from factual. It's opinion which you're not willing to admit. You'd rather say I have a skewed way of thinking, than admit that there's even a 1% chance that Chris Benoit would not have gotten into the hall of fame if he didn't kill his wife and child. Surefire means 100% chance. I find that a skewed way of thinking personally.

The WWE is for show and for people who Vince wants.

Exactly and I think that there could've been a situation where vince didn't WANT him in the HOF. Could've been many imo. I don't know that that's fact it's what I think. I don't really have a grasp on vince's mind (to be fair to me though, I don't know if even Vince does.)

The questions were Will Chris Benoit be inducted into the HOF? (topic of the thread) No, he won't.

'Does he deserve it?'
No just because others are in the WWE HOF that don't deserve it, doesn't mean that he does deserve it.

'Will his career forever be buried and overshadowed by his last terrible act in life?'

Yeah and No. It is as it should be imo. Does it overshadow his wrestling ability? Yes imo. Not to insult anyone or thing. But if we (as human beings) want to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. We should shine more light on it than on his career. Is his career forever buried? NO
people still look at benoit as a great wrestler and find some of his matches incredible and will never forget them.

"But if WWE points out that it is honoring the man that they knew, and not the murderer he was in the last day, will that ever make a difference?"

We don't know that the man that the WWE knew was all that great. I'm not saying he was an evil man all his life BUT Regal's comments always made my stomach turn. Do I think the WWE thought he'd commit murder? Of course not. Do I think the WWE could've known that Chris Benoit had fits of Rage, uncontrollable outburst, and wasn't exactly Mr. Clean? I THINK they could've. I think that the WWE wept on Raw(might have been smackdown not sure honestly) that night(most of them) because he was a co-worker. And for the most part none of us really want to think that a murderer could've been that close. That a person THAT evil could be traveling with us. That doesn't mean he was a GREAT fellow.

Vince will milk people for money, even ones that aren't the cleanest people on the planet.(steriod scandals for 100 alex.) So I'm not convinced Chris was exactly the neighborhood watchman, saving the world type before he 'suddenly' murdered two people. Also let's not forget, he went to work after this, hid the fact that he did it, and only LATER went back and killed himself. It wasn't like it was a spur of the moment thing. He killed two people, went to work, then went back and hung himself. He thought about his actions, probably (again this is just my opinion here) knew it was wrong didn't turn himself in and only then after weighing options killed himself. (now that I'm off topic I'll stop)

PS: btw for anyone that thinks otherwise, I do not dislike D-man or anyone else on this forum. Nor do I think I'm smarter than them. I think D-man is a Great poster on these forums. I disagree with him on this topic. I don't view him as anything but a damn good poster. I bring this up because someone said to me that I was trying to insult d-man. In no way was I trying to do this. I was just having a debate. I'm sorry if I came off as if I don't respect D-man's posting ability or knowledge of professional wrestling.

 

[biscuits1416]

ok. will he get in? most likely not, should he get in? yes. i know he killed his family and himself, and its all messed up and everything. but he is not the only hall of famer to commit suicide? most of the von erics, eddie guerrero tried to commit suicide 2 or 3 times. he should be in the hof but wnt be

 

[The Champ]

ok. will he get in? most likely not, should he get in? yes. i know he killed his family and himself, and its all messed up and everything. but he is not the only hall of famer to commit suicide? most of the von erics, eddie guerrero tried to commit suicide 2 or 3 times. he should be in the hof but wnt be

Dude, the guy's a murderer. It's not about the suicide, like you said, people who have committed suicide have gotten into the HoF before. Suicide has come to be somewhat accepted by society, in that the people who do it have gone through suffering too extreme that they feel like they can't take another day in this life, but murder is very different. Benoit didn't just take himself out of this world, he took two innocent people with him, including a little kid who probably worshiped his dad and surely didn't believe that the father he loved was capable of ever hurting him. To take someone's life from them is pretty much the worst crime anyone can ever commit, and Benoit doesn't deserve to get in because of what he did. I completely support the WWE's decision to not mention him anymore, they do it for PR reasons and the media would be all over them if they ever decided to honor Benoit again. Because glorifying a murder would be the ultimate sign that the business is fucked up beyond logical repair. And I'm sure that's the very last thing that the WWE needs right now, or ever.

 

[The Gribbler]

This will NEVER happen. Ever. He killed two people. One of which was his SON! I don't get this idea of holding on to any respect for him. Good wrestler? Yes. Well liked guy? Sure. But come on, the dude's a monster. You'll never ever be able to prove anyone otherwise. And as for editing him out of past matches and pretending he never existed; we all should.

The WWE hall of fame has nothing to do with who a wrestler was as a person, it is to judge them as a performer, and as a performer few were better.

His last act was so despicable that I can barley stand to think about it, but then we would be judging him on different criteria from all the other inductees if we ignored his accomplishments.

Hulk Hogans personal life was not examined, nor was Eddie Guererros, nor Bret Hart. They were judged on their ringwork along.

So too should Benoit...Even if he was a monster.

Just My Opinion

 

[ocekit]

Many people on this forum seem to be forgetting what the WWE Hall of Fame actually is.

The WWE Hall of Fame isn't about honoring the best of WWE history. It's not about honoring the best wrestler, or best performer (otherwise Pete Rose wouldn't be in it). The Hall of Fame is about Company and Public Relations. It is a feel-good moment for everyone, and a "goal" for those in the company.

The WWE Hall of Fame is completely subjective. The people who are honored are usually: getting along with Vince McMahon (see Dusty Rhodes), putting that aside to get that last bit of face-time with WWE fans (see Bret Hart), or good for Public Relations at the time (see Eddie Guerrero).

The facts are these: To those outside of wrestling, all they know about Benoit is that he is a WIFE & CHILD MURDERER. If WWE put him in the Hall of Fame, no matter how much they pushed his in-ring skills or his personality backstage, they would be seen as endorsing that man. On top of that, parents already concerned about their kids watching wrestling would see this as offensive.

To put Benoit in the Hall would be a terrible PR move, and Vince can't afford this kind of press. There is nothing they could do to spin it as a good thing. No matter how good he was in the ring, his act damaged the already tarnished image of professional wrestling. The act received so much media attention that even the slightest thing related to Benoit gets written about to this day.

In short: there is no way in hell Chris Benoit will or even should be put in the WWE Hall of Fame. He could (maybe) get into an objective wrestling hall of fame, but WWE is far from objective.

 

[zephyrs]

No, despite what he in the ring, WWE and the media will never be able to look past what he did outside of it. WWE would be more than happy to never have to utter his name again.

 

[D-Man]

Actually it was your point... Not mine I just countered your point. Let me quote you.


See you brought up the WWE's criteria on inductions. Not I and then again here



And since you asked the question that got us 'off topic' I answered by saying that the WWE really doesn't seem to have any criteria at all. That's not getting off topic that's responding to a claim. You said that Benoit would be a surefire HOFer if it wasn't for the fact he murdered his family. I countered your claim. It's called debate, I gave logical and reasonalbe arguements. It's just anytime I bring a logical arguement to the table you say I'm 'going off topic'.

Yup, and I have yet to see you bring a valid point to the debate. So far, all you've been doing is pointing a finger at me and saying, "You're wrong" with your hypothetical views and lack of reinforcement on your claims. You've been dancing around Benoit's contributions to the sport by deflecting the subject onto others that have been voted into the HoF which really makes no impact on the decision they'd make about Benoit. As a matter of fact, you've barely mentioned Benoit in your last two posts.

In other words: You said without doubt (surefire is the word you used) that he would be a Hall of famer because of his accomplishments without the murder. I countered by showing men (many at that) who have accomplished more that aren't hall of famers. And until they are, your point holds little water to me.

This is where you're pulling the ignorace card in order to support your claim.

Fact of the matter is that a Hall of Fame exists for a fake sport. This HoF cannot be about any kind of realistic athletic accomplishments, and therefore is all about the entertainment factor. Hence the reason why men like Pete Rose have been inducted.

I'm sure that the list of men you keep bringing up will eventually be inducted into the HoF. And judging by the amount of responses in this thread that are in favor of MY point of view on Benoit, just because YOU weren't entertained by him doesn't mean that he wasn't entertaining. So, I'm going to go with the majority here. After all, entertainment is about playing to the masses. Since you're the minority vote, you're clearly not part of the masses.

He was by no means a surefire hall of famer if those other guys aren't in already.

Stop going in circles with this because it really isn't supporting any type of argument having to do with Benoit. Whether Benoit would have been inducted this year or thirty years from now, he'd make it in eventually if it weren't for his crimes. And I'm sure that the list of men that you're crying about would have been inducted before him. So now your criteria is satisfied. There... are you happy now?

Again we are speaking on the fact of whether or not a person SHOULD be in the WWE hall of fame. Which means we have to use their criteria Which I have already shown is a little more than a little warped with FACTS.

No, all you showed is your personal opinion versus what history has proven. And judging by the readers responses in this thread in favor of MY way of thinking, you might be wrong about this one. Better rethink it.

And again I say there are far more deserving people that aren't. Meaning that Chris Benoit was far from being a surefire hall of famer.

Here is where you talk out of the wrong hole again. You're telling me that just because Benoit didn't contribute as much as someone like Sting, that means they shouldn't be inducted?? So I guess that Ted DiBiase shouldn't be inducted this year... or Wendi Richter... or Stu Hart. I mean, let's face it, Randy Savage and Sting have done more for the sport than them, so I guess they're out until Sting or Mick Foley are inducted, right? (And don't bring up the fact that they're still active because then you're going to throw more smoke and mirrors in front of your point and derail this thread even further.)

Valid point, never heard that Warrior turned it down. I don't claim to know EVERYTHING by any means. If Warrior doesn't want to be in that's his deal.

Agreed. I'm not claiming to know everything, either. But I believe this means I know more than you do. I'm just sayin.

Okay so wait, vince is going through a list of guys that deserve to be in the Hall of fame and Koko and Pete Rose are higher on his list than Vader? Please explain to me why anyone would put in Koko before Lou Thesz.

Ok, here's one: Lou Thesz hasn't agreed to be inducted yet. Want to know why? See my previous paragraph.

The first guys to go in should be the ones that have waited the longest and have done a hell of alot more than people like Koko.

I respect your opinion. Really, I do. But if the WWE does things this way, wouldn't this make every superstar that is inducted later on down the down a little discouraged with the process, knowing that every single guy that went in before them was better than them?

I think this is one of the only instances where the WWE is being completely fair and trying to keep all of their inductees on the same level so the HoF doesn't lose its true meaning.

My personal opinion is that Lou Thesz will never be in and even if he did. Vince put Koko before Lou Thesz on his list of 'worthy' hall of famers. If you only have so many spots to fill which you claim shouldn't they be spots for people who actually contributed instead of your Pete Rose's? Again, your arguement is like saying that Ryan Leaf would be put into the NFL before Joe Montana. It's not unfair it's not baseless. Again, until every one of those guys who have had more storied and better careers than benoit are in. You can't say his accomplishments would be a 'SUREFIRE' way for him to get in. It's fact that it clearly isn't.

I get what you're saying, but once again, you're being ignorant to the actual process. You're allowing your personal views on how the process of induction should go to cloud your thinking. Face facts: People aren't inducted into the HoF the way that you personally want them to be. Vince could care less about what you think. My standpoint in this debate is based on VINCE'S criteria for induction. There really is no argument against that.

Now, if you wish to argue about the WWE's induction process, I have created a thread for Future Hall of Fame discussion. Take your argument there because the more we don't speak about Chris Benoit, the more this thread is constantly being derailed by this conversation.

No what you said was that by my 'skewed' way of seeing things. That the JYD and Koko were better than Mandkind or Sting.

Yes, your way of thinking is skewed because your personal opinion and the way that the WWE does things are two completely different things. And the WWE is never going to float towards your opinions or preferences, so why continue with this debate? You can't win.

I gave a reason why those two men weren't in the Hall of Fame. It because active wrestlers don't really get inducted. Especially wrestlers that don't work for Vince. Your point here was beyond nonsense. No one in their right mind would say that JYD or Koko B was better than Foley or Sting. But Vince apparently thinks that they are better than Thesz and Gotch and Lewis.

The only way your point would be valid here is if Vince inducted stars into the HoF in order based on their contributions in pro-wrestling. I have contantly proven throughout this argument that your way of thinking is wrong. I feel like a broken record.

Again the order has nothing to do with it. Rose in Thesz out.

YAY!! You're finally getting it!

And as far as your other comment goes. you said that they will prolly be in someday... Ummm, that's far from surefire sir.

I don't work for the HoF committee, but I can put two and two together. Men like Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair were SUREFIRE inductions prior to a few years ago, and they got in. Thesz did as much as they did for the sport. I think it's safe to say he'll be in.

And if you want to debate impact on the sport it's not close between them. Here's the deal, you change your thought process everytime I come up with anything to counter one of your arguements.

This makes no sense. But thanks for saying it.

The fact is this, I don't think every tom, dick, and half descent wrestler should be in the hall of fame.

Nor do I.

Benoit was just another midcarder, he had a couple of moments. He might have been in the HOF but he wouldn't have deserved it.

Finally, we're back on subject.

Here's the #1 reason why your argument hold no water. You're obviously a Benoit hater, and I respect that. But just because your opinion says one thing, that doesn't mean that the other isn't the truth. Your opinion on Benoit is wrong. Face facts.

Just because Koko and others that did nothing are in there doesn't mean you should put another non-worthy person in the HOF just for the fact.

Actually, it does. Why? Because you don't write the rules on who gets inducted into the HoF and who doesn't. And even if you did, Benoit MORE THAN exceeds the criteria that you stand by.

Chris Benoit wasn't a hall of famer, before he murdered his family, after he murdered his family, never once did he live up to the standards. Benoit shouldn't have been in no matter what.. Get it?

Have fun living in the world of fiction. I'd prefer living in my world of reality, where your opinion is completely wrong.

 

[4horses]

Yup, and I have yet to see you bring a valid point to the debate. So far, all you've been doing is pointing a finger at me and saying, "You're wrong" with your hypothetical views and lack of reinforcement on your claims. You've been dancing around Benoit's contributions to the sport by deflecting the subject onto others that have been voted into the HoF which really makes no impact on the decision they'd make about Benoit. As a matter of fact, you've barely mentioned Benoit in your last two posts.

HE DID NOTHING! He had a couple of nights of glory. That's it, he wasn't a shawn michaels who stole the show at every wrestlemania. He wasn't an Undertaker who put over younger people making them into stars . He also hasn't had the moments that any of those guys. Benoit was so meh that Eddie had to come down and make his Title win look like it was worth something. As champion he was medicore. Sure you could say benoit 'evelvated orton' but he didn't. After that night Orton began a joke. NAME ONE main guy that's around now that was made by benoit. Name one, Rey Rey? He's a bigger name than benoit to begin with, Cena. Taker helped make Cena. Benoit did little to nothing for professional wrestling. He never was. He was a ONE TRICK PONY. No charisma, No mic skill, not marketablity. What walls did Chris break down? That a guy that had no 'entertainment' (I seperate that from the inring stuff so don't cry plz) value could be world champion? Seriously, he made no big difference. His impact was minimal. He was a dynamite kid want to be, who honestly wasn't as good. (opinion I know but I'm sure had you asked Chris he would've agreed). Without ONE moment its arguable whether or not he deserves to be mentioned at all. WIthout Wrestlmania 20 his career meant absolutely nothing. He was a mid-carder who was so incapable of having a match at wrestlemania, that they added HBK to the match so SOMEONE might give a damn.

Had it not been for WM XX his career would've been less memberable than Koko B Wares bird. Chris did nothing to change anything, and you have to change things to show that you made a difference. He didn't sell out arenas, he didn't make others into stars, and lastly his technical wrestle ability changed nothing. Is technical wrestling a staple of the WWE now? No more than when he showed up.

This is where you're pulling the ignorace card in order to support your claim.

Fact of the matter is that a Hall of Fame exists for a fake sport. This HoF cannot be about any kind of realistic athletic accomplishments, and therefore is all about the entertainment factor. Hence the reason why men like Pete Rose have been inducted.

I'm sure that the list of men you keep bringing up will eventually be inducted into the HoF.

again when I say something along these lines it's "you're trying to change the subject" you do and it's a counterarguement. I like the fact that you're ignorant. I don't mind it at all. I suppose it's okay for you but not me. And if it's all about entertainment factor than Chris Benoit doesn't even sit on the
same stage as say a KoKo B Ware.

And judging by the amount of responses in this thread that are in favor of MY point of view on Benoit,

Classic. I love it when someone says they're right because people agree with them. Like they can't be wrong because people agree. The fact that Chris Benoit is liked by the IWC means nothing. You'll find alot of people who also claim benoit was murder and there's a coverup. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make it fact or close to fact.

just because YOU weren't entertained by him doesn't mean that he wasn't entertaining.

Actually, I was entertained by him. I was a HUGE chris benoit fan. I probably know more about him than you'd ever guess I would. I followed him from ECW all the way to WWE. Me liking him has no bearing on my thoughts on the subject. Don't believe me? Well first off look at my name. Avide horseman fan, he was a horseman.... That scores you five points in my book right there. He was also in the Triple Threat my second favorite stable of all time. See I liked Chris Benoit. He was good at what he did, but he was a one trick pony that overall wasn't a hall of famer.

So, I'm going to go with the majority here. After all, entertainment is about playing to the masses. Since you're the minority vote, you're clearly not part of the masses.

No you're going to go with the majority of the people on this site. Since when was the IWC the majority? You're right the majority of the people on here agree with you, but does that mean I'm not part of the masses? Umm no. If the IWC was the Majority of the WWE fans the WWE would've imploded when Cena was World champion and was being pushed to no end. So no, you're a part of the masses on here. As opposed to the overall masses that watch and view WWE television.

Stop going in circles with this because it really isn't supporting any type of argument having to do with Benoit. Whether Benoit would have been inducted this year or thirty years from now, he'd make it in eventually if it weren't for his crimes. And I'm sure that the list of men that you're crying about would have been inducted before him. So now your criteria is satisfied. There... are you happy now?

No, all you showed is your personal opinion versus what history has proven. And judging by the readers responses in this thread in favor of MY way of thinking, you might be wrong about this one. Better rethink it.

Again this thread proves SOME people agree with you. The IWC loves you for it. Still not the majority of fans.

Here is where you talk out of the wrong hole again. You're telling me that just because Benoit didn't contribute as much as someone like Sting, that means they shouldn't be inducted?? So I guess that Ted DiBiase shouldn't be inducted this year... or Wendi Richter... or Stu Hart. I mean, let's face it, Randy Savage and Sting have done more for the sport than them, so I guess they're out until Sting or Mick Foley are inducted, right? (And don't bring up the fact that they're still active because then you're going to throw more smoke and mirrors in front of your point and derail this thread even further.)

No I'm saying because Benoit didn't contribute much, if anything at all. He shouldn't be put above them.

Agreed. I'm not claiming to know everything, either. But I believe this means I know more than you do. I'm just sayin.

Okay so because you THINK you know more about Benoit than me you're know more than me about everything? Okay, there's another huge leap that you make to try and make yourself seem smarter than you are. Just like the 'MASSES' agree with you because people on this site do. It's more than a bit of a stretch.

Ok, here's one: Lou Thesz hasn't agreed to be inducted yet. Want to know why? See my previous paragraph.

Prove that to be true and I'll agree. That's one reason altho I highly doubt it's the reason he's not in.

I respect your opinion. Really, I do. But if the WWE does things this way, wouldn't this make every superstar that is inducted later on down the down a little discouraged with the process, knowing that every single guy that went in before them was better than them?

No and here's my point on that. The WWE can only induct so many people every year. The best of the best are what we call first ballet guys. This comes from the MLB HOF. If Koko goes in before Lou Thesz it's a slap in the face. It's just a fact man. You can look at it any way you want. But if Thesz is in before Austin it doesn't mean a damn thing. Because Thesz was retired and ellegable for it sooner.

I think this is one of the only instances where the WWE is being completely fair and trying to keep all of their inductees on the same level so the HoF doesn't lose its true meaning.

I don't see it having any meaning. I can't be unbias here so I'm not going to actually get into the fact that I think their HOF is just a waste. I can't view it objectively on that bases.

I get what you're saying, but once again, you're being ignorant to the actual process. You're allowing your personal views on how the process of induction should go to cloud your thinking. Face facts: People aren't inducted into the HoF the way that you personally want them to be. Vince could care less about what you think. My standpoint in this debate is based on VINCE'S criteria for induction. There really is no argument against that.

but you don't know his criteria for induction.

Now, if you wish to argue about the WWE's induction process, I have created a thread for Future Hall of Fame discussion. Take your argument there because the more we don't speak about Chris Benoit, the more this thread is constantly being derailed by this conversation.

He was still a midcard nothing that had no real impact on professional wrestling (better?)

Yes, your way of thinking is skewed because your personal opinion and the way that the WWE does things are two completely different things. And the WWE is never going to float towards your opinions or preferences, so why continue with this debate? You can't win.

You can't prove that they wouldn't have agree with me because this debate is impossible to gage without the actual events happening. Meaning the Chris Benoit still killed his family.

Here's the #1 reason why your argument hold no water. You're obviously a Benoit hater, and I respect that. But just because your opinion says one thing, that doesn't mean that the other isn't the truth. Your opinion on Benoit is wrong. Face facts.

See this is where you're wrong. I never was or am I now a Chris Benoit hater. Just because I don't believe he deserves to be in the HOF doesn't mean I hate the man. See you're still jumping to conclusions even if you somehow convince yourself that I'm still a hater I'm not. I love 90% of his matches.

Actually, it does. Why? Because you don't write the rules on who gets inducted into the HoF and who doesn't.

In my mind if something is wrong you should state it or it'll never change. Just because my criteria isn't in perfect step with Vince's doesn't mean I should say

And even if you did, Benoit MORE THAN exceeds the criteria that you stand by.

No he wouldnt touch my standards.

Have fun living in the world of fiction. I'd prefer living in my world of reality, where your opinion is completely wrong.

My arguement is that the WWE has no criteria for inducting people. And until someone can show me the 'criteria' that vince uses then I state that NOONE meets the WWE's criteria because they don't have one. It's hard to meet or exceed expectations that don't exsist.

 

[Captain Insane0]

Give Me a hell no. Hell Nooooooo!!!!!!! are you serious. Chris was a great wrestler. One of thee best ever. if we are talking straight up wrestling then he is in the top 5 in my book. he had the most amazing matches extreme or mat wrestling. Just with that last act he commited in real life not the ring i hope he will be ever damned. I saw a post about they shouldnt disrespect his fans by not inducting him. I hope to god those fans are still his fans for some f the matches he had and the wrestling cuz noone on this planet should respect th eguy not even a little. First imo only cowards commit suicide and plus the fact you kill your wife and your own freaking son. i need to stop before i get mad and rant some more

 

[reddevil69]

So you admit that the WWE's thinking is skewed thank you.


I do think that but I'm not basing my argument on my thinking. At least not completely. You surely are basing your opinion on that.


How dare you imply vince doesn't care about all of us in the WWE Universe. We line his pockets. I'm sure he has a place in his heart for all of us.


He showed the business great respect when he gave it a blackeye forever by killing two people.... Hmmm I find that hard to believe. He also showed it great respect by using roids and other drugs during his career as well I suppose? I could argue reasonably and logically (I tend to use that in my skewed way of thinking) that he showed the business no respect at all.


See I see somethings unfortunate about this. Ending his wife's and child's life yes. His not so much and btw, I don't totally by the arguement of repeated head shots being the reason. It's a theory it's far from being proven. Facts my friend please deal with those. You want to throw out a theory go ahead but don't state it as fact. Or say that it's your opinion. You may confuse some on here by stating things as facts that aren't proven.


That again is an opinion. Many people might think he didn't. I personally don't know I didn't watch every match in his career but if effort counts then Savage would be in before anyone else. He went over his matches many times before ever getting into the ring. So putting everything into matches clearly isn't the critera vince uses. If it was, I highly doubt that Hulk Hogan, who had proven (in Japan) that he had real wrestling skill would be in the Hall of Fame and he is. (Granted you could say this is an opinion but I'm basing it on in ring work. Which hardly anyone argues that Hogan's work in Japan was better than in the WWE)



And IF Vince didn't want to recognize Benoit he wouldn't have had to. You're basing your opinion on the objective opinion of another human being. Meaning your trying to get into Vince's brain. You're trying to prove fact by saying that you somehow have the ability to know what vince would do. Which I'm guessing you really don't.

And yes it does matter if Savage and Thesz are in. Especially when a person claims that he'd be in based on his accomplishments. I showed people with more storied careers and higher accomplishments that aren't. Meaning that his agrument was faulty.

Also if vince didn't want to recognize benoit he wouldn't have to. If Benoit didn't kill his family he probably would've done something else that wasn't completely wonderful. I mean the guy killed his family it's not like he was a normal person.


Also before you say 'we're supposed to do this base this on his career' and not his personal life. I can't do that seeing as vince himself doesn't do that. (I.E Savage) Plus the fact that if you watch the raw after his death, it didn't seem like William Regal(who has worked with Benoit in various places) would've been too shocked that Benoit killed his family. Now granted I'm trying to see into Regal's thoughts but I am doing it with some insight into with the comments he made. You are basing yours on your opinions of what vince thought of someone AFTER their career ended(which is impossible since we don't know what would've become of Mr. Benoit.) Maybe just maybe, Chris Benoit was hiding something all of us never got to see.....


I want to argue this fact. It seemed to mean something to Ric Flair went he was crying on stage. And others have as well. And if it means enough to these guys to cry, I think(not a fact if course. ((plz don't bring up the fact flair came back. It's a nice counter point. But remember the fact that flair was active when he was inducted AND the fact that it still could mean alot to him even if he is coming back. He still wears his HOF ring as evidence I would submit for my thinking. )) it might mean something to the guys inducted.


No YOU believe he would've been. See again, you're reading into Vince's mind. You don't KNOW that he would've been a SUREFIRE hall of famer. It's what you THINK. And it's what you WANT everyone else to think. See you and D-man are trying to impose your thinking onto me. The problem is that your thinking is far from factual. It's opinion which you're not willing to admit. You'd rather say I have a skewed way of thinking, than admit that there's even a 1% chance that Chris Benoit would not have gotten into the hall of fame if he didn't kill his wife and child. Surefire means 100% chance. I find that a skewed way of thinking personally.




Exactly and I think that there could've been a situation where vince didn't WANT him in the HOF. Could've been many imo. I don't know that that's fact it's what I think. I don't really have a grasp on vince's mind (to be fair to me though, I don't know if even Vince does.)

The questions were Will Chris Benoit be inducted into the HOF? (topic of the thread) No, he won't.

'Does he deserve it?'
No just because others are in the WWE HOF that don't deserve it, doesn't mean that he does deserve it.

'Will his career forever be buried and overshadowed by his last terrible act in life?'

Yeah and No. It is as it should be imo. Does it overshadow his wrestling ability? Yes imo. Not to insult anyone or thing. But if we (as human beings) want to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. We should shine more light on it than on his career. Is his career forever buried? NO
people still look at benoit as a great wrestler and find some of his matches incredible and will never forget them.

"But if WWE points out that it is honoring the man that they knew, and not the murderer he was in the last day, will that ever make a difference?"

We don't know that the man that the WWE knew was all that great. I'm not saying he was an evil man all his life BUT Regal's comments always made my stomach turn. Do I think the WWE thought he'd commit murder? Of course not. Do I think the WWE could've known that Chris Benoit had fits of Rage, uncontrollable outburst, and wasn't exactly Mr. Clean? I THINK they could've. I think that the WWE wept on Raw(might have been smackdown not sure honestly) that night(most of them) because he was a co-worker. And for the most part none of us really want to think that a murderer could've been that close. That a person THAT evil could be traveling with us. That doesn't mean he was a GREAT fellow.

Vince will milk people for money, even ones that aren't the cleanest people on the planet.(steriod scandals for 100 alex.) So I'm not convinced Chris was exactly the neighborhood watchman, saving the world type before he 'suddenly' murdered two people. Also let's not forget, he went to work after this, hid the fact that he did it, and only LATER went back and killed himself. It wasn't like it was a spur of the moment thing. He killed two people, went to work, then went back and hung himself. He thought about his actions, probably (again this is just my opinion here) knew it was wrong didn't turn himself in and only then after weighing options killed himself. (now that I'm off topic I'll stop)

PS: btw for anyone that thinks otherwise, I do not dislike D-man or anyone else on this forum. Nor do I think I'm smarter than them. I think D-man is a Great poster on these forums. I disagree with him on this topic. I don't view him as anything but a damn good poster. I bring this up because someone said to me that I was trying to insult d-man. In no way was I trying to do this. I was just having a debate. I'm sorry if I came off as if I don't respect D-man's posting ability or knowledge of professional wrestling.

I happen to know for an undeniable, irrefutable, un-contestable fact (yes I have the proof) that Vince McMahon was a total mark for Benoit.He absolutely loved his ring work. For that reason alone, I guarantee you that had Benoit not committed that horrible act, Vince would have definitely had a place reserved for him in HOF when he retired.

 

[JrX]

Chris Benoit was a great wrestler, but as a WWE performer, he was mediocre at best. Technical wrestling skills are in top form but yea thats not the only criteria you have. Mic skills lacking; i cringe everytime he spends more than 30 seconds talking. Drawing Power; not so much, he coulnd't really have a good main event unless there was a real established main eventer also with him. If he didn't exist it's not like the wrestling world wouldn't of changed as much as per say if bret, shawn michaels or undertaker didn't exist.

If he didn't commit murders, he wasn't a surefire in the hall of fame. However, there is a chance he could of, provided witht he fact that he stayed on top of his game for years and didn't dwindle back to mid-card zone years after the date of his death. But those are all Ifs, so i cant say 100% he would be in.

 

[D-Man]

HE DID NOTHING! He had a couple of nights of glory. That's it, he wasn't a shawn michaels who stole the show at every wrestlemania.

No, he was just a man that held a total of 32 championships during his pro-wrestling career, two world champions, is one of three men to ever have held both the World Heavyweight Championship AND the WCW championship, and was one of two men to ever win the Royal Rumble as the first entrant along side... you guessed it... Shawn Michaels.

But let's say championships don't make a difference. I guess we can just take Roddy Piper out of the HoF, can't we? Surely he doesn't deserve to be in since he only held the Intercontinental title once, which was his only major championship. Guess that makes him a "glorified mid-carder", right?

Really... you have good points, but none of them hold water in this debate.

He wasn't an Undertaker who put over younger people making them into stars.

Nah... he never put over:

ECW - Sabu, Taz, Shane Douglas, 2 Cold Scorpio
WCW - Saturn, Raven, Billy Kidman
WWE - Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, John Cena, Mr. Kennedy

Should I go on? Do some research before making more statements that you can't back up.

He also hasn't had the moments that any of those guys. Benoit was so meh that Eddie had to come down and make his Title win look like it was worth something.

Oh, that's right. It had nothing to do with their friendship. Or the fact that they jumped ship from WCW to WWE together and proved critics wrong when they said that "little" men couldn't win a WWE championship. Or the fact that Vince allowed them to have a "curtain call" moment and enjoy it at the pinnacle moment of the 20th anniversary of the greatest pro-wrestling broadcast in history.

As champion he was medicore.

I absolutely agree 100%. But then again, Roddy Piper wasn't even a world champion. You're going to question his worthiness of being in the HoF?

Sure you could say benoit 'evelvated orton' but he didn't. After that night Orton began a joke.

Yep, Orton was a joke. By defeating Benoit, he became the youngest WWE champion in history, a record that still holds to this day.

NAME ONE main guy that's around now that was made by benoit.

Already did. See above.

Cena. Taker helped make Cena.

Yeah, I guess it only takes one guy top ever "make" anyone, right? It's a process, man. Benoit SURELY made his contribution towards the elevation of everyone that I mentioned above. And there is no way in hell that Taker was
the ONLY guy to make Cena. Once again, you're talking out of the wrong hole to prove a point that has constantly been disproven throughout this debate.

Benoit did little to nothing for professional wrestling.

Except win 32 championships, the Super J Cup in New Japan, and become recognized as one of the most gifted and technically sounds competitors in the history of pro-wrestling. These are not my words, by the way. Want proof?

Benoit was widely regarded as one of the most popular and gifted technical wrestlers in history.

Disprove that one.

He never was. He was a ONE TRICK PONY. No charisma, No mic skill, not marketablity.

Neither did Lou Thesz. But that guy's pretty important to pro-wrestling history, isn't he?

Without ONE moment its arguable whether or not he deserves to be mentioned at all. WIthout Wrestlmania 20 his career meant absolutely nothing. He was a mid-carder who was so incapable of having a match at wrestlemania, that they added HBK to the match so SOMEONE might give a damn.

A midcarder that won the Royal Rumble that year, and was the second #1 entry in history to do so aside from Shawn Michaels. But Vince would only give that opportunity to a midcarder, right??

Had it not been for WM XX his career would've been less memberable than Koko B Wares bird. Chris did nothing to change anything, and you have to change things to show that you made a difference.

Yup, because the Super J Cup wasn't important. Nor were his ladder matches with Chris Jericho. Or his world title win in WCW. Or his role in the fucking FOUR HORSEMEN.

He didn't sell out arenas,

Actually, he sold out a few... including Wrestlemania XX.

again when I say something along these lines it's "you're trying to change the subject" you do and it's a counterarguement. I like the fact that you're ignorant. I don't mind it at all. I suppose it's okay for you but not me.

I guess my ignorance overshadows the fact that I have research to prove every one of my points, while you already admitted that most of your bullshit is a matter of opinion.

Classic. I love it when someone says they're right because people agree with them. Like they can't be wrong because people agree. The fact that Chris Benoit is liked by the IWC means nothing. You'll find alot of people who also claim benoit was murder and there's a coverup. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make it fact or close to fact.

You're right. Because a majority of opinion in a sport based on its competitors' popularity means nothing. Ok, got it.

Actually, I was entertained by him. I was a HUGE chris benoit fan. I probably know more about him than you'd ever guess I would.

Yeah, you know plenty. That's why you're taking your side in this debate that's getting pissed on with a boat load of facts versus your opinions.

I followed him from ECW all the way to WWE. Me liking him has no bearing on my thoughts on the subject. Don't believe me? Well first off look at my name. Avide horseman fan, he was a horseman.... That scores you five points in my book right there. He was also in the Triple Threat my second favorite stable of all time. See I liked Chris Benoit. He was good at what he did, but he was a one trick pony that overall wasn't a hall of famer.

Read that paragraph over again. And you're telling me that he doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame??

No you're going to go with the majority of the people on this site.

No, I'm going with the majority of the world. I can't remember the last time a crowd didn't pop when Benoit entered a wrestling ring. If you can prove one time that they got up to take a piss when he came out to wrestle, I stand corrected. I'll stick with my side of the story; he sold out venue after venue, including Wrestlemania XX.

Prove that to be true and I'll agree. That's one reason altho I highly doubt it's the reason he's not in.

Here's an idea... YOU prove something. Because you haven't yet. My fingers are tired from citing examples and giving quotes and figures about Benoit's past that solidify his place in wrestling immortality. Is your mouth tired yet from all of your opinions and transparent comments?

No and here's my point on that. The WWE can only induct so many people every year. The best of the best are what we call first ballet guys. This comes from the MLB HOF. If Koko goes in before Lou Thesz it's a slap in the face. It's just a fact man. You can look at it any way you want. But if Thesz is in before Austin it doesn't mean a damn thing. Because Thesz was retired and ellegable for it sooner.

Here's what you don't get... this is the WWE, not the MLB. And if you can prove that the MLB, NBA, and NFL induct members into their Hall of Fames based on comparison of their contributions to the sports, then I'll stand corrected. But just sitting there and SAYING it's so doesn't cut the mustard. FACTS. NOW.

You can't prove that they wouldn't have agree with me because this debate is impossible to gage without the actual events happening. Meaning the Chris Benoit still killed his family.

Agreed. Everything we have been debating is hypothesis. However, just like in mathematics and physics, you can turn a hypothesis into fact if you have the right research and information to back it up. I've supplied mine. Where's yours?

See this is where you're wrong. I never was or am I now a Chris Benoit hater. Just because I don't believe he deserves to be in the HOF doesn't mean I hate the man. See you're still jumping to conclusions even if you somehow convince yourself that I'm still a hater I'm not. I love 90% of his matches.

Fine, you're not a Benoit hater. You're just wrong about his impact on pro-wrestling.

My arguement is that the WWE has no criteria for inducting people. And until someone can show me the 'criteria' that vince uses then I state that NOONE meets the WWE's criteria because they don't have one. It's hard to meet or exceed expectations that don't exsist.

Until you can prove ANYTHING at all in this debate other than the fact that you're good at giving your opinion and blowing off steam, I'll continue to support my claims. And I'm sure that I'm not alone on this one.

Congratulations. You've been pwned again.

 

[4horses]

No, he was just a man that held a total of 32 championships during his pro-wrestling career, two world champions, is one of three men to ever have held both the World Heavyweight Championship AND the WCW championship, and was one of two men to ever win the Royal Rumble as the first entrant along side... you guessed it... Shawn Michaels.

Good point but he still had no real impact. And you keep saying I make no points in this debate. Let me point out that he had no drawing ability and no mic skills again. Altho I guess those two things have nothing to do with pro wrestling.

But let's say championships don't make a difference. I guess we can just take Roddy Piper out of the HoF, can't we?

Okay I have to say huh? to this. If championships don't make a difference then how can you take out piper?

Surely he doesn't deserve to be in since he only held the Intercontinental title once, which was his only major championship.

Again if championships DON'T make a difference your proving your own point wrong. If championships don't make a difference then the fact that Piper only held the IC belt doesn't say anything. Oh and I'm sure Piper would love to hear the fact that you're taking away his Multiple US Title reigns and his tag title reign. Last time I checked those were Major titles. But I'm sure you'll ignore THIS FACT as well.

Guess that makes him a "glorified mid-carder", right?

comparing someone who had to endure a four year hulk hogan title reign to someone who was in wrestling the same time Vince held the belt is a little insane don't you think? Title belts get changed more often now than they did back then and aren't as highly viewed. At least IMO.

Really... you have good points, but none of them hold water in this debate.

No I'm stating fact.

Nah... he never put over:

I didn't say he never put anyone over. I just he never made anyone a star. Which is pretty much a fact. I didn't say he didn't put people over I'm just saying it didn't have a really big impact on their careers.

ECW - Sabu, Taz, Shane Douglas, 2 Cold Scorpio

Sabu was ECW ready from day one. The fact is that if anyone pushed his career upwards it was Terry Funk and Shane Douglas. Chris Benoit never put Sabu into the spotlight. He got that when he defeated Terry Funk for the Television title. If he even needed it because the way ECW was set up everyone KNEW at the beginning that Sabu would be a star. I know because I was there.

Second point Taz. Taz was put over by Douglas and his feud with Sabu and bam bam bigelow. He beat douglas for his first major reign as champion and at that point was when people in the arena said 'WOW'. His feud with bigelow just reinforced the fact that he was a force. He then later WON the world title in a match against Shane Douglas (again vaulting him even higher in the minds of ECW fans).

And to say that Benoit somehow put over douglas in ECW is a joke. You might get this over on a person that knows NOTHING about ECW. You might just be out of your damn mind. To my knowledge( I wasn't at every ECW show but I go back a ways) Douglas and benoit never wrestled in a match in ECW. Not to mention the fact that Douglas was the very man that the company was built on from day ONE. If ANYONE put over Shane in ECW it was either 2 cold Scorpio, or Terry Funk, or cactus jack. The fact is that Douglas put over Benoit not visa versa. Douglas put benoit into his group when benoit by most ECW fans was considered boring. Douglas at least made him seem somewhat relavent. He couldn't get over the with the crowd. That's why ECW constantly moved further and further away from technical wrestling. Because people like Benoit, Malenko, and others couldn't get over with the crowd.

2cold was another one that wasn't put over by Benoit in really any way. He was one of the orginal stars of ECW and benoit had nothing to do with making him one.

Chris Benoit NEVER enhanced the career of anyone in ECW further than it already had been. You can claim what you want, but I promise you don't want to debate ECW with me.

WCW - Saturn, Raven, Billy Kidman

I said having an impact on making guys stars. Umm, I don't believe any of these guys were stars. Kidman couldn't even get over when hogan was losing to him. So really none of them were over enough in WCW to even be considered in this debate.

WWE - Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, John Cena, Mr. Kennedy

Okay first guy on that list is funny because you have more of a claim that benoit made him a star in ECW just by introducing him into the promo. But Jericho was made important there by people like Jack, Douglas, 2 cold scorpio and that ilk. Just sayin. And as far as WWE goes, Jericho was made on day one when he had one of the most memorable promos ever with the rock. The WWE then buried him and I think it was only when Jericho was a midcarder and down the card that they actually gave him a fued with Chris. Which kept him in the midcard until he was moved up to the big leagues with Triple H. Trips somewhat put him over making him look like he could make it with the big boys. And THEN, he was ACTUALLY PUT OVER and made a star by beating austin and the rock in one night. That's what made chris jericho. Nothing to do with Benoit.

Kurt- put over by the Rock again. The rock made him a star, , he then made his legacy greater by making the likes of austin, Hogan, HBK, and Trips tap out.

Van Dam-you're kidding right. None of these guys had ME feuds with Chris benoit. NONE OF THEM. Van dam was put over by winning the MITB and beat Cena. That's what made him into a ME caliber guy. That and he proved he could hang with a champion a while back against trips.

The only person that was close to MADE a star by Benoit was Orton and that almost ruined his career! He didn't put over Kurt, Kurt was already a bigger star than Benoit would ever be.

ena was put over by taker and Kurt and every big star out there. Benoit made little to no difference in the career of John Cena. He didn't come close.

Kennedy wasn't even a HUGE star in the WWE. Wasn't a Main eventer, wasn't a major factor and he wasn't the big time name, He didn't draw, he wasn't a great wrestler and to put him in the STAR debate is a joke.


See I said this "He wasn't an Undertaker who put over younger people making them into stars."

you have yet to show me someone chris benoit made into a star. A moment where Chris Benoit helped get the little guy over. And the one you can show me was for some reason a disaster.

Should I go on? Do some research before making more statements that you can't back up.

Clearly you need to do some researched based on your ECW comment. Saying that Chris Benoit made Shane Douglas into a star in ECW is like saying that Mark Henry made the Undertaker into a star in the WWE. It makes NO sense. Mark Henry can't put over the Undertaker in the WWE because of many factors but the man one being that Taker is over already. Chris Benoit couldn't put Shane over in ECW when Shane Douglas was the NUMBER ONE GUY! He didn't need benoit at all, Benoit needed douglas. Get over yourself and Chris Benoit. Because saying Chris put over ANYONE and made them into stars in ECW is complete crap. You might fool someone on here with that debate but anyone who knows ECW knows you're full of crap. You're throwing out claims that aren't remotely true. And if they're opinions you're honestly insane. I don't know where you got your info that Benoit PUT OVER Douglas in ECW but you need to tell that source they're wrong.

Oh, that's right. It had nothing to do with their friendship. Or the fact that they jumped ship from WCW to WWE together and proved critics wrong when they said that "little" men couldn't win a WWE championship.

Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart proved this. Benoit did nothing as far as little men go. He was like 5'10 240 pounds. If you say that Benoit is a little man then you also have to say that Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, and many others broke down that door first. Benoit wasn't the little guy unless you consider a guy that should've never been WWE champion winning the title as a little man overcoming

Or the fact that Vince allowed them to have a "curtain call" moment and enjoy it at the pinnacle moment of the 20th anniversary of the greatest pro-wrestling broadcast in history.

Or because he couldn't get over and the fact that Shawn Michaels had to be added just so the match looked important.

I absolutely agree 100%. But then again, Roddy Piper wasn't even a world champion. You're going to question his worthiness of being in the HoF?

different time. Championship imo were earned back then. Hogan had the world title for four years. No one has come close to that since. Altho it isn't a bad point and I'm not going to insult you. But you're also the guy who keeps saying he's done all this RESEARCH and didn't know that Piper had more than one IC title reign. My question to you is before you insult someone else's research make sure yours is correct. Same thing with Benoit in ECW. I know how over he was in ECW. It wasn't much, Paul Heyman was the only reason he got a swinging chance and that's because he liked him personally.

Yep, Orton was a joke. By defeating Benoit, he became the youngest WWE champion in history, a record that still holds to this day.

and it's known as one of the most laughable reigns in history. Benoit did a great job of making him a ME guy.

Already did. See above.

You showed me a bunch of guys that were more over than benoit that he lost to. That doesn't mean that he put them over. To put someone over you have to elevate guys. Benoit just didn't do that. And you can twist it any way you like but it's fact.

Yeah, I guess it only takes one guy top ever "make" anyone, right? It's a process, man. Benoit SURELY made his contribution towards the elevation of everyone that I mentioned above. And there is no way in hell that Taker was
the ONLY guy to make Cena. Once again, you're talking out of the wrong hole to prove a point that has constantly been disproven throughout this debate.

If done right it can, but Taker, JBL, Angle put over Cena. It wasn't one guy it just happens that Chris benoit wasn't even close to needed in the scenerio.

Except win 32 championships, the Super J Cup in New Japan, and become recognized as one of the most gifted and technically sounds competitors in the history of pro-wrestling. These are not my words, by the way. Want proof?

I really don't have the time to dispute this atm as I'm getting ready to go but I'll be back.

Disprove that one.

I don't have time to atm, but much like your other statements I'm actually going to have to check it. Much like you saying that Piper's only major title reign was a IC champion. Or that Chris Benoit PUT OVER SHANE DOUGLAS (still LOLING about that) And before you say none of those reigns were a big deal he once beat ric flair to become US champion. And should prolly be known as one of the better ones in history.

Neither did Lou Thesz. But that guy's pretty important to pro-wrestling history, isn't he?

Comparing them is a joke.

A midcarder that won the Royal Rumble that year, and was the second #1 entry in history to do so aside from Shawn Michaels. But Vince would only give that opportunity to a midcarder, right??

Yep they did all that to try to make him into something and he ended up jobbing on ECW and never doing a damn thing.

Yup, because the Super J Cup wasn't important. Nor were his ladder matches with Chris Jericho. Or his world title win in WCW. Or his role in the fucking FOUR HORSEMEN.

His world title win in WCW was a joke. One day and left OMG WHAT A MOMENT. His role in the horseman was to be a guy that took people out. Watch when he was made into a horseman. They made him out to be a crippler. (got that name from heyman who had a hardon for him to begin with) He never really DID anything with the horseman. His role was even a joke as he was supposed to be the defender of the horseman. He didn't do it, the horseman much like the Triple Threat was a failed attempt to get over Chris benoit.

Actually, he sold out a few... including Wrestlemania XX.

Shawn Michaels in the ME at wrestlemania means instant classic. If Chris Benoit wasn't there that event would've sold just as many tickets. Michaels did it at various points in his career AND Trips has done it as well. Benoit did it once with those two guys filling the MAJOR gap that was left by someone like benoit actually being in the ME.

I guess my ignorance overshadows the fact that I have research to prove every one of my points, while you already admitted that most of your bullshit is a matter of opinion.

Again apparently not seeing as you said piper only had one major title reign which is false, and the fact that you say Benoit put over Douglas. So your research is clearly lacking at least in a few places. How many? I don't know but now I have to research ALL your claims considering the fact you've proven to either be an unreliable sourse yourself or that you have bad sources.

Yeah, you know plenty. That's why you're taking your side in this debate that's getting pissed on with a boat load of facts versus your opinions.

some of those facts are complete bullshit though. I mean I could piss on your case to if I can make up facts that don't exsist.

Read that paragraph over again. And you're telling me that he doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame??

I don't know how much of it is real atm. So I'll have to look it up. Again you're basing some of this on untrue facts.

Here's an idea... YOU prove something. Because you haven't yet. My fingers are tired from citing examples and giving quotes and figures about Benoit's past that solidify his place in wrestling immortality. Is your mouth tired yet from all of your opinions and transparent comments

You've agreed with me at times meaning I must've proven something and I also off the top of my head proved that you were incorrect in your research which pretty much makes you a benoit mark trying to make a point with inconclusive facts.

Until you can prove ANYTHING at all in this debate other than the fact that you're good at giving your opinion and blowing off steam, I'll continue to support my claims. And I'm sure that I'm not alone on this one.

Congratulations. You've been pwned again.

and again the RESEARCH you did is all at least somewhat bullshit. Because it was wrong. So if you want to base your anaylasis on incomplete or wrong facts you go ahead. But the facts themselves pwned you sir.

 

[D-Man]

For the record, I will state that I fucked up my stat on Roddy Piper. I never watched WCW at the time (since I was busy going through adolescence and getting laid in college) so I missed out on anything Piper did in there. My bad. But you see, I can prove when I'm wrong. Even when I've proven that you are dead wrong with your beliefs, you just aren't budging. So, let's get back to my pwning:

First of all...

EVERYONE - NOW HEAR THIS! BREAKING NEWS!

he was just a man that held a total of 32 championships during his pro-wrestling career, two world champions, is one of three men to ever have held both the World Heavyweight Championship AND the WCW championship, and was one of two men to ever win the Royal Rumble as the first entrant along side... you guessed it... Shawn Michaels.

Now, keep all of that in mind for a minute and read this:

he still had no real impact. And you keep saying I make no points in this debate. Let me point out that he had no drawing ability and no mic skills again. Altho I guess those two things have nothing to do with pro wrestling.

Congratulations, 4horses!! I'm so happy that you've proven that mic skills and drawing ability are more important than 32 championships, the Super J Cup, a Royal Rumble win after being the #1 entrant, and defeating Triple H and HBK in the same night in the main event of Wrestlemania XX. Now, please excuse me while I laugh myself into a coma.

Also, pertaining to the men that Benoit put over, where did I say that Benoit was the ONLY man to put these guys over? ECW's entire roster was putting everyone else on the roster over at the time. For you to actually think that it came down to one person is as laughable as your comment about the Undertaker single-handedly putting talent over. It's very rare that ONE person puts talent over and pushes them into the mainstream. But 95% of the current Hall of Fame class didn't do it, so how could you even make that a point here?

So, besides that, your rebuttle post is chock full of more opinion or transparent statements.

HBK was added to Wrestlemania to make it "look important?" Gee, I never read about that. PROVE IT.

Benoit ended up "jobbing" in ECW? Last I checked, he was drafted to ECW to win the championship and lead the brand before he murdered his family. That's hardly jobbing. And this is when ECW was still hot.

And you're saying that Roddy Piper wasn't champion because it was a "different time" and Hogan was too busy being on top? Well Benoit defeated Triple H (and HBK) for the championship during a time when Triple H held the title for 532 days within 2 years. That's about as close of a Hogan-type reign that we've seen in the past decade. What's your excuse now?

And you call his WCW title win a joke? Do you know WHY he was given the title? Because he was so valuable to WCW that they wanted him to stay. This is all over any website that shows the history of WCW. Look it up. But I guess they'd only do that for a jobbing midcarder, huh?

I refuse to argue any other points in your previous post because I've already disproven them all and your rebuttles have been nothing but "That's wrong. I swear! Your research is wrong!" Well, where's YOUR research? You've given NO fact behind your debate... NONE. I'm sorry, but I can't sit here and just go by your opinion. And if we actually listened to the rest of your disproven tirade, we'd all see that your statements basically shit on every superstar that has ever been inducted in the WWE Hall of Fame since you're knocking the WWE's process of choosing its members from every possible angle.

Chris Benoit was a gem in professional wrestling that tarnished his legacy by murdering his family and himself. His accolades are greater than the majority of superstars that have ever existed. There is NO WAY any of it would've gone overlooked just because you think so. Whatever criteria the WWE could have, would have, or should have used doesn't matter. Chris Benoit's legacy is versatile enough to fit into any of them.

 

[reddevil69]

Chris Benoit was a great wrestler, but as a WWE performer, he was mediocre at best. Technical wrestling skills are in top form but yea thats not the only criteria you have. Mic skills lacking; i cringe everytime he spends more than 30 seconds talking. Drawing Power; not so much, he coulnd't really have a good main event unless there was a real established main eventer also with him. If he didn't exist it's not like the wrestling world wouldn't of changed as much as per say if bret, shawn michaels or undertaker didn't exist.

If he didn't commit murders, he wasn't a surefire in the hall of fame. However, there is a chance he could of, provided witht he fact that he stayed on top of his game for years and didn't dwindle back to mid-card zone years after the date of his death. But those are all Ifs, so i cant say 100% he would be in.

Benoit was World Champion, he was absolutely a surefire hall of famer. You're telling me that Koko B. Ware is in the HOF but Benoit wouldn't be considered if he hadn't murdered his family?

Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, Don Muraco, and Tony Atlas did not accomplish even close to what Benoit did in his career, not one of them main evented a Wrestlemania and none of those guys ever held the WHC and they are all in the hall.

How is it even a question whether Benoit would have been inducted? The only reason he'll never be considered is because of what he did in the last three days of his life.

 

[4horses]

For the record, I will state that I fucked up my stat on Roddy Piper. I never watched WCW at the time (since I was busy going through adolescence and getting laid in college) so I missed out on anything Piper did in there. My bad. But you see, I can prove when I'm wrong. Even when I've proven that you are dead wrong with your beliefs, you just aren't budging. So, let's get back to my pwning:

Or the NWA apparently considering he was champion there as well. And btw you can 'brag' about you're personal life online but most people that do haven't had sex since clinton was president but I digress.

Congratulations, 4horses!! I'm so happy that you've proven that mic skills and drawing ability are more important than 32 championships, the Super J Cup, a Royal Rumble win after being the #1 entrant, and defeating Triple H and HBK in the same night in the main event of Wrestlemania XX. Now, please excuse me while I laugh myself into a coma.

Well considering that wrestling is a business and not a SPORT I would say that Mic Skill and drawing abliity is more important than 32 championship reigns.

Also, pertaining to the men that Benoit put over, where did I say that Benoit was the ONLY man to put these guys over? ECW's entire roster was putting everyone else on the roster over at the time.

Ummm I didn't put down a single guy for anyone as I remember it. I put down multiple people down for like everyone on the ECW roster. And no the entire roster wasn't putting everyone over. Chris Benoit NEVER put over Shane Douglas. Douglas was champion before Benoit EVEN debuted in ECW. Shane Douglas was a LEGEND in the Philly area before Benoit came into ECW. And when Chris did come in he wasn't known. Shane was already a two time champion (including the NWA reign there) and forever known for throwing down a piece of shit belt (Okay the piece of shit belt thing is just my personal opinion of what that belt had become. I do have a personal stake against it at that time.) for a belt that stood for everything right in the fans minds. And to my knowledge up until that point he debuted in ECW Chris Benoit hadn't held a belt in America. No one in these parts had ever heard of him so it wasn't like him losing to ANYONE in ECW meant anything. I said it would be like Batista losing to Taker and saying he got him over. Douglas was already a LEGEND in those circles. Stop trying to take an arguement that is completely false and use it to your advantage. Douglas tried to put over Benoit by putting him in his faction and even after that people didn't buy it. I don't need to do the research here. I was actually THERE.

You can look all this up but I think you'll find that Douglas was already a multi-time champion in the north east, was already known as the Franchise before Benoit even showed up. That claim about how Benoit somehow put him over is the biggest batch of dog shit I've ever heard.

For you to actually think that it came down to one person is as laughable as your comment about the Undertaker single-handedly putting talent over. It's very rare that ONE person puts talent over and pushes them into the mainstream. But 95% of the current Hall of Fame class didn't do it, so how could you even make that a point here?

Because at least Taker puts them into the mainstream. Beating the Undertaker makes you more credible. Beating benoit meant really nothing as he was nothing more than a mid-card talent. It was and never will be a big deal. And the one time they tried to make it a big deal (Orton) it flopped.

So, besides that, your rebuttle post is chock full of more opinion or transparent statements.

HBK was added to Wrestlemania to make it "look important?" Gee, I never read about that. PROVE IT.

Umm of course I didn't do all that 'research you did. I'm just winging it. I'm not really even trying. And as far the HBK thing. It's pretty obvious that the WWE didn't think that Benoit could carry a ME at Wrestlemania. It's logical to put Shawn in. Atm I was the guy bitching because Michaels was put in the match saying that if you're trying to put Benoit over (which everyone knew they were) that a triple threat match wouldn't do it. Fact was that Benoit never made it. They gave him a chance he just never did anything with it.

Benoit ended up "jobbing" in ECW? Last I checked, he was drafted to ECW to win the championship and lead the brand before he murdered his family. That's hardly jobbing. And this is when ECW was still hot.

Umm first of all as I remember it Kurt was supposed to lead ECW. At that time Paul Heyman drafted two men. Rob Van Damn and Kurt Angle who were supposed to lead ECW into the future. The fact was that certain events happened with those two men. After that the WWE's version of ECW took over(which was a third brand misfit that wasn't really watched enough for anyone to care) The fact that Benoit would've won a belt that was called by a WWE commentator at the time "More of a US title than a world title"(it was a similar statement) wouldn't have done anything for him. And btw ECW wasn't hot at that point it was dwindling after two HUGE loses.

And you're saying that Roddy Piper wasn't champion because it was a "different time" and Hogan was too busy being on top? Well Benoit defeated Triple H (and HBK) for the championship during a time when Triple H held the title for 532 days within 2 years. That's about as close of a Hogan-type reign that we've seen in the past decade. What's your excuse now?

The belt still changed 5 TIMES. You can call it hogan-type dominace but it really wasn't.

And you call his WCW title win a joke? Do you know WHY he was given the title? Because he was so valuable to WCW that they wanted him to stay. This is all over any website that shows the history of WCW. Look it up. But I guess they'd only do that for a jobbing midcarder, huh?

Everyone in the world knew he was leaving. They weren't getting him to stay and WCW at the time was falling apart. His world championship in WCW means less than David Arquette's. The WCW world title meant nothing trying to make sense of ANYTHING they did at that point is pointless. After fall brawl 99 the WCW world was dead. Nothing more than a joke. The fact that they were giving the belt to SID of all people in the twilight of his career showed that the booking was horrible. So saying an organization without dirrection wanted to keep him isn't a big deal to me. And apparently they would do that for a jobbing midcarder. (See Jeff Jarrett.)

I refuse to argue any other points in your previous post because I've already disproven them all and your rebuttles have been nothing but "That's wrong. I swear! Your research is wrong!" Well, where's YOUR research? You've given NO fact behind your debate... NONE. I'm sorry, but I can't sit here and just go by your opinion.

I'm not asking you to, I'm just saying you're not going to convince me of anything. The question is still opinion based. And I've given plenty of facts that you've ignored. A) Shane Douglas was already a marquee name in ECW before Benoit even showed up. The fact was Shane was the 'Franchise' of ECW before Benoit was even known as a good techincal wrestler by most people in America. 2) The piper thing, yeah you keep say I have NO facts. Umm I've shown that. 3) Benoit sucked drawing and Mic Skills, Wait I'm sorry Chris Benoit single handedly sold out WM XX. They just added HBK because he's untalented and need something to do. It's not like they could've actually gotten over a real young talent that night.

And if we actually listened to the rest of your disproven tirade, we'd all see that your statements basically shit on every superstar that has ever been inducted in the WWE Hall of Fame since you're knocking the WWE's process of choosing its members from every possible angle.

Nope I'm shitting on the process. I have respect for all wrestlers. I can't do what they do. Just because I don't like the WWE Hall of Fame doesn't mean I don't respect the guys in it. You're jumping to wild conclusions again.

Chris Benoit was a gem in professional wrestling that tarnished his legacy by murdering his family and himself. His accolades are greater than the majority of superstars that have ever existed. There is NO WAY any of it would've gone overlooked just because you think so. Whatever criteria the WWE could have, would have, or should have used doesn't matter. Chris Benoit's legacy is versatile enough to fit into any of them.

He was a great Technical wrestler (and btw in his twenty year career I think he had one five star match, MAYBE. That's not a lot for what people have been saying on here is the greatest techinical champion ever.) . That's about it, his move set was all other guys moves that he top. His interviews are non-memorable, his title reigns are forgettable at best.

And yes his accolades are greater than a bunch of guys BUT I'm not talking about the majority of wrestlers. I'm saying accolades don't mean that much. Most of his '32' title reigns the average person won't(or wouldn't have) be remember and if they are it's because the vast majority meant nothing. Much like his WCW reign.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Or the NWA apparently considering he was champion there as well. And btw you can 'brag' about you're personal life online but most people that do haven't had sex since clinton was president but I digress.



Well considering that wrestling is a business and not a SPORT I would say that Mic Skill and drawing abliity is more important than 32 championship reigns.


Ummm I didn't put down a single guy for anyone as I remember it. I put down multiple people down for like everyone on the ECW roster. And no the entire roster wasn't putting everyone over. Chris Benoit NEVER put over Shane Douglas. Douglas was champion before Benoit EVEN debuted in ECW. Shane Douglas was a LEGEND in the Philly area before Benoit came into ECW. And when Chris did come in he wasn't known. Shane was already a two time champion (including the NWA reign there) and forever known for throwing down a piece of shit belt (Okay the piece of shit belt thing is just my personal opinion of what that belt had become. I do have a personal stake against it at that time.) for a belt that stood for everything right in the fans minds. And to my knowledge up until that point he debuted in ECW Chris Benoit hadn't held a belt in America. No one in these parts had ever heard of him so it wasn't like him losing to ANYONE in ECW meant anything. I said it would be like Batista losing to Taker and saying he got him over. Douglas was already a LEGEND in those circles. Stop trying to take an arguement that is completely false and use it to your advantage. Douglas tried to put over Benoit by putting him in his faction and even after that people didn't buy it. I don't need to do the research here. I was actually THERE.

You can look all this up but I think you'll find that Douglas was already a multi-time champion in the north east, was already known as the Franchise before Benoit even showed up. That claim about how Benoit somehow put him over is the biggest batch of dog shit I've ever heard.


Because at least Taker puts them into the mainstream. Beating the Undertaker makes you more credible. Beating benoit meant really nothing as he was nothing more than a mid-card talent. It was and never will be a big deal. And the one time they tried to make it a big deal (Orton) it flopped.


Umm of course I didn't do all that 'research you did. I'm just winging it. I'm not really even trying. And as far the HBK thing. It's pretty obvious that the WWE didn't think that Benoit could carry a ME at Wrestlemania. It's logical to put Shawn in. Atm I was the guy bitching because Michaels was put in the match saying that if you're trying to put Benoit over (which everyone knew they were) that a triple threat match wouldn't do it. Fact was that Benoit never made it. They gave him a chance he just never did anything with it.


Umm first of all as I remember it Kurt was supposed to lead ECW. At that time Paul Heyman drafted two men. Rob Van Damn and Kurt Angle who were supposed to lead ECW into the future. The fact was that certain events happened with those two men. After that the WWE's version of ECW took over(which was a third brand misfit that wasn't really watched enough for anyone to care) The fact that Benoit would've won a belt that was called by a WWE commentator at the time "More of a US title than a world title"(it was a similar statement) wouldn't have done anything for him. And btw ECW wasn't hot at that point it was dwindling after two HUGE loses.


The belt still changed 5 TIMES. You can call it hogan-type dominace but it really wasn't.


Everyone in the world knew he was leaving. They weren't getting him to stay and WCW at the time was falling apart. His world championship in WCW means less than David Arquette's. The WCW world title meant nothing trying to make sense of ANYTHING they did at that point is pointless. After fall brawl 99 the WCW world was dead. Nothing more than a joke. The fact that they were giving the belt to SID of all people in the twilight of his career showed that the booking was horrible. So saying an organization without dirrection wanted to keep him isn't a big deal to me. And apparently they would do that for a jobbing midcarder. (See Jeff Jarrett.)


I'm not asking you to, I'm just saying you're not going to convince me of anything. The question is still opinion based. And I've given plenty of facts that you've ignored. A) Shane Douglas was already a marquee name in ECW before Benoit even showed up. The fact was Shane was the 'Franchise' of ECW before Benoit was even known as a good techincal wrestler by most people in America. 2) The piper thing, yeah you keep say I have NO facts. Umm I've shown that. 3) Benoit sucked drawing and Mic Skills, Wait I'm sorry Chris Benoit single handedly sold out WM XX. They just added HBK because he's untalented and need something to do. It's not like they could've actually gotten over a real young talent that night.


Nope I'm shitting on the process. I have respect for all wrestlers. I can't do what they do. Just because I don't like the WWE Hall of Fame doesn't mean I don't respect the guys in it. You're jumping to wild conclusions again.


He was a great Technical wrestler (and btw in his twenty year career I think he had one five star match, MAYBE. That's not a lot for what people have been saying on here is the greatest techinical champion ever.) . That's about it, his move set was all other guys moves that he top. His interviews are non-memorable, his title reigns are forgettable at best.

And yes his accolades are greater than a bunch of guys BUT I'm not talking about the majority of wrestlers. I'm saying accolades don't mean that much. Most of his '32' title reigns the average person won't(or wouldn't have) be remember and if they are it's because the vast majority meant nothing. Much like his WCW reign.

I'm going to use this part of your post to pick you apart. HBK should never have been in the match in the first place. Him and HHH fought for the title at the Royal Rumble and that match went to a draw. Why was HBK entitled to another shot at the title. He didn't win the title so he should have stepped back and let it just be HHH vs. Benoit but it doesn't matter because Benoit made HHH tap at WM and HBK tap at Backlash so it is the best of both worlds.

But good old HHH and HBK couldn't let Benoit have the spotlight. Reference Bad Blood where HHH and HBK had one of the worst Hell in a Cell matches I've ever seen while Benoit helped Kane have arguably the best match of his career. Did the Benoit/Kane match go on last as it should have? No, the 45-minute snoozefest that was called HIAC went on last for no reason at all. You can say because that was the end of their feud but they fought five months later so what's the use.

Chris Benoit was one of the best technical wrestlers of his era. He didn't need to wear a costume or use catchphrases to get over. His wrestling got him over in an era where it was all about sex and violence. Him, Angle, and Jericho brought attention to wrestling instead of shock value so he has had an impact on wrestling.

 

[4horses]

I'm going to use this part of your post to pick you apart. HBK should never have been in the match in the first place. Him and HHH fought for the title at the Royal Rumble and that match went to a draw. Why was HBK entitled to another shot at the title. He didn't win the title so he should have stepped back and let it just be HHH vs. Benoit but it doesn't matter because Benoit made HHH tap at WM and HBK tap at Backlash so it is the best of both worlds.

HBK doesn't make matches, he doesn't write them, he doesn't decide what happens, Vince does. So saying that it's somehow his fault or Trips fault is a cop out. They added HBK prolly so someone could hold benoit up when the lights got big and the pressure was on. Since he'd never really headlined anything. He couldn't draw so VINCE put HBK into the match. He also put HBK into the fued because Benoit was about as stale on the mic as you could get. And sometimes you need more than a german suplex in 'sports entertainment'. Michaels could have interviews people cared about while benoit didn't have the skill to carry a main event to WM. So Vince did the smart thing and added one of the greatest entertainers of all time to the match so it could come off alright.

Secondly, I know trips tapped and Mania and HBK tapped to Chris later. But thinking about it now not even that could make people believe that Benoit was a marquee guy.

But good old HHH and HBK couldn't let Benoit have the spotlight.

Neither man makes matches neither man took anything away from Benoit, his lack of skill in many areas took it away from him. Stop blaming HHH and HBK for Benoits down side. Vince took the spotlight away not HBK or HHH.

Reference Bad Blood where HHH and HBK had one of the worst Hell in a Cell matches I've ever seen while Benoit helped Kane have arguably the best match of his career. Did the Benoit/Kane match go on last as it should have? No, the 45-minute snoozefest that was called HIAC went on last for no reason at all. You can say because that was the end of their feud but they fought five months later so what's the use.

NO my arguement was that two midcarders couldn't garner the kind of attention for a PPV main event that vince wanted. I actually remember the Trips vs HBK fued I don't remember the last tiem Benoit and Kane was even mentioned. Again Vince didn't trust Benoit as a headliner thus the HBK-HHH fued was pushed to the forefront after WM XX instead of the world champion.

Chris Benoit was one of the best technical wrestlers of his era.

ok

He didn't need to wear a costume or use catchphrases to get over. His wrestling got him over in an era where it was all about sex and violence.

The costume and Catchphrases wouldn't have hurt considering he wasn't anything but a technical wrestler. . He wasn't over.

Him, Angle, and Jericho brought attention to wrestling instead of shock value so he has had an impact on wrestling.

I like how you put him in a sentence with two guys who are better than him in almost every way. Angle and Jericho can both have good interviews, they both are interesting and charasmatic. The thing is that Benoit wasn't and mentioning he in the same sentense as those two won't make him any more like them.

 

[JrX]

Benoit was World Champion, he was absolutely a surefire hall of famer. You're telling me that Koko B. Ware is in the HOF but Benoit wouldn't be considered if he hadn't murdered his family?

Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, Don Muraco, and Tony Atlas did not accomplish even close to what Benoit did in his career, not one of them main evented a Wrestlemania and none of those guys ever held the WHC and they are all in the hall.

How is it even a question whether Benoit would have been inducted? The only reason he'll never be considered is because of what he did in the last three days of his life.

You can't compare people of the past to people now. The people in the past, to even get your hands on the world title is not as easy at is now. Reigns lasted longer before.

It is a question. Nothing is 100%. I could tell you other people who should be but are not as well (using your criteria of comparing the past to now). And for the record, shawn michaels and triple H main evented wrestlemania. WIthout those names, benoit wouldn't even be on that list.

Benoit is are what you call the contemporary veterans. ANd if he were alive and retired at old age with the rest of his group, he would be competiting with Triple H, Shawn Michaels etc etc to get into the HOF and the HOF only inducts a set # per year. If he dwindled back to mid-card zone after his death and did nothing memorable, he would not be so SUREFIRE. Maybe in 20 years, but not SUREFIRE as in omg induct him immediately.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You can't compare people of the past to people now. The people in the past, to even get your hands on the world title is not as easy at is now. Reigns lasted longer before.

It is a question. Nothing is 100%. I could tell you other people who should be but are not as well. And for the record, shawn michaels and triple H main evented wrestlemania. WIthout those names, benoit wouldn't even be on that list.

Benoit is are what you call the contemporary veterans. ANd if he were alive and retired at old age with the rest of his group, he would be competiting with Triple H, Shawn Michaels etc etc to get into the HOF and the HOF only inducts a set # per year. If he dwindled back to mid-card zone after his death and did nothing memorable, he would not be so SUREFIRE. Maybe in 20 years, but not SUREFIRE as in omg induct him immediately.

That is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Benoit won the Royal Rumble which guaranteed a shot at main eventing Wrestlemania and that is what he did and to say that HHH and HBK main evented Wrestlemania only is asinine. I could get into how HBK should have never been in the match in the first place but I won't.

I'm not saying that he should be inducted in immediately but he should be inducted because of his contribution and impact to wrestling especially at a time when it was all about sex, violence, and the shock factor. Benoit was one of the best wrestlers to step foot in a ring and nothing or nobody can prove me otherwise.

 

[SteveAustinsucks]

This has to be the dumbest question ive ever had to read. The Pegasus wingled Wolverine will never be inducted in the HoF. He killed his wife and son, WWE will never induct him. You will never ever hear someone in the WWE mention Chris Benoit or anything with Benoit. Hes like deleteted.

 

[reddevil69]

You can't compare people of the past to people now. The people in the past, to even get your hands on the world title is not as easy at is now. Reigns lasted longer before.

It is a question. Nothing is 100%. I could tell you other people who should be but are not as well (using your criteria of comparing the past to now). And for the record, shawn michaels and triple H main evented wrestlemania. WIthout those names, benoit wouldn't even be on that list.

Benoit is are what you call the contemporary veterans. ANd if he were alive and retired at old age with the rest of his group, he would be competiting with Triple H, Shawn Michaels etc etc to get into the HOF and the HOF only inducts a set # per year. If he dwindled back to mid-card zone after his death and did nothing memorable, he would not be so SUREFIRE. Maybe in 20 years, but not SUREFIRE as in omg induct him immediately.

I can compare the wrestlers from the 80's to the guys in the 90's and currently as well.....and I will. Thank you for trying to tell me what I'm allowed to do though.


How does your criteria figure? Guerrero never won a Rumble, never got the mega Mania push and never main evented Mania. I'm talking last match of the night, most prestigious title. Benoit got that honor and he got it from two of the biggest names in history laying down for him. Eddie was the 2nd banana Smackdown champion and he is in the HOF.

Eddie Guerrero was better on the stick, but he was not any better than Benoit between the ropes and he was inducted immediately so how do figure Benoit would be an afterthought?

Now I suppose you're going to talk out the other side of your face and say Guerrero was only a sympathy honor because he died?

If that's the case then why aren't Brian Adams and Crash Holly in there?

 

[SteveAustinsucks]

@4horses...your a brainwashed idiot nothing more. Your statements are just uniformed opinion. Benoit never put anyone over? Benoit never had problems to put someone over and lose to an other Worker. Benoit had less Wrestling-skills than Malenko, Storm or Regal?

Chris Benoit has a technical wrestling background given to him by training in the dungeon of the Hart Family home, and has extensive world experience in Japan, Mexico and other locales.
Benoit has master training background that per example Malenko didnt have. Chris Benoit spent years training under the leadership of the legendary Stu Hart, with the aid of Bret Hart, Owen Hart, and many other wrestlers that went through the dungeon to become professional wrestlers.
Regal, Storm, and Malenko are all three underrated Workers, they are great technicans, but Chris Benoit is hands down the better Allround performer than all three.
He could adapt to ANY style, ANY opponent, from a "hardcore" brawl to a 5-star technical showcase with Kurt Angle, and everything in-between. And he was great at making anybody look awesome in the ring.
There are others in his league, of course, but not much are as all-around good as Benoit was. Mat wrestling, technical excellence, submission, flying, brawling, "hardcore", Benoit could do it all. Benoit was also an exellent brawler, and could outbrawl other technicans.
Benoit put everything he had into every match he was in, whether that was in front of 100 fans or a PPV audience
I have seen literally hundreds of Benoit matches throughout his entire career from Stampede to Japan to ECW, WCW and the WWE and I never got tired of seeing him wrestle. A Benoit match was always the highlight of any card.

Benoit never did anything for the business? Please just shut up, you really have no points to make do ya? What you said is just laughable. And who cares about Mic-work anyway? Its all about the Ringwork.



Benoit, technical wrestling is more than just about the moves you can do its about how well you tell a story in the ring and how well your in ring psychology is. Just because Malenko does mat wrestling moves doesn't make him technical his in ring psychology isn't that great actually he does moves just to do moves he puts no purpose behind them he just does them to be flashy.
Benoit told a story in the ring and put purpose in the chain of moves he does benoits in ring psychology is top notch.

I think its pretty obvious Dean is the better mat wrestler, however Benoit is an overall better package. Benoit is an overall better package than Regal, Storm and Malenko.
Youve made points which ive totally destroyed you. Go back and read that things you said like how Benoit never done anything for the business, and how he never put anyone over.
You have no clue and are barely coheirent, so let your bias clout your judgement. Your a joke.