[UnOfficial] WWE vs. TNA Thread - New one active

[staticxer]

Ecw didn't "crash and Burn" Heyman simply sucks at financing if he knew how to fund his company properly ECW would never have been bought out.

 

[Kaedon]

But it did, it crashed and burned. It was never going to go anywhere anyway because, just like TNA, ECW appealed to a small minorty of the wrestling fans. ECW was like an underground metal band. The had a small target audience, which is why ECW lost money hand over fist and why all indy metal bands play in a bar for 3 of their friends and a bunch of barstools.

 

[NeoScyther]

just like TNA, ECW appealed to a small minorty of the wrestling fans.

Apparently, that "small minority" sits in the stands at Raw, Smackdown, and ECW shows. I'd say that TNA fans are more than just a "small minority".

I could see TNA becomming a threat to WWE down the road, just as long as they don't do what WCW did and focus too much on their competition, and worry about themselves.

 

[Shining Wizard]

ECW died for other reasons. ECW died because Heyman chose not to change their programming and because of that they were never advertised and had a bad time slot. TNA differentiates from ECW because they have a solid prime time slot and are getting along with TNN now known as spike tv. ECW and TNA have gone two different roads. Don't compare them because there nothing alike.

ECW died because of financial and Heyman being arrogant. He choose not to stop the cursing and etc ECW had which made TNN not advertise them and not give them a prime time slot. Also ECW went bankrupt. TNA has money and are staying on Spike Tv's good side.

 

[Kaedon]

Apparently, that "small minority" sits in the stands at Raw, Smackdown, and ECW shows. I'd say that TNA fans are more than just a "small minority".

I could see TNA becomming a threat to WWE down the road, just as long as they don't do what WCW did and focus too much on their competition, and worry about themselves.

You mean the people who chant ECW? I know 9 year old kids who chant ECW at WWE shows. Its trendy to like ECW and say "Ohh man ECW was great". Chanting ECW doesnt mean they were a fan back in the bingo hall days.

TNA, much like ECW, is making themselves an "alternative" to the WWE. And thats fine, but being an alternative doesnt make you better.

 

[three_d]

RAW is getting to become a predictable and boring show the only thing that is keeping me watching it is this whole HBK vs Rated-rko thing ( i just want to see the undoing for Rated-RKO)which has started to unravel this whole Donald trump thing is dumb as sh*t im just glad that K-fed is gone

1 down 1 to go



the other thing i want to see is Austin on RAW but i know how this will end with Austin coming out on top

 

[Big Ace]

IMO, K-Fed and Rated RKO did great jobs as heels. Rated RKO are about to split up after an awesome run with DX. I think that Orton should fight Edge at Wrestlemania. K-Fed played a perfect heel because it fit with his real life character. If you hate those three guys, then that means they are doing their job. I DO agree with the guy who said that Stone Cold should come back and stunner Khali..i wouldn't mind that happening.

 

[triplehfan716]

What is everyones big lovefest with Austin? He cant wrestle anymore hes as fragile as wedding china. He may be back before Mania just to promote his movie coming out then he will go away. That being said as much as I am sick of Austin Raw needs all the help they can get for about 6 months till Trips the real francise comes back and kicks ass as only he can

 

[Kasey]

But it did, it crashed and burned. It was never going to go anywhere anyway because, just like TNA, ECW appealed to a small minorty of the wrestling fans. ECW was like an underground metal band. The had a small target audience, which is why ECW lost money hand over fist and why all indy metal bands play in a bar for 3 of their friends and a bunch of barstools.

Actually, ECW was the most thieved-upon company of the last twenty years with regards to what it did for the business. The fact that every WWE mark can't see this is appalling. Remember the Attitude Era? It was ECW with better pyro and a larger entrance way. If ECW received the kind of backing and exposure that some of its contemporaries had, it would've been a bigger hit than any of them. Want proof? Look at the consistent stable of stars they produced that McMahon just transferred to his show. Austin. Foley. RVD. The Dudleys. Look at the guys WCW stole. Saturn. Malenko. Guererro. Benoit. Mysterio. These guys were the backbone of ECW and were basically just cut and pasted directly into the fold of WWF and WCW programming and were just marketed in a wider fashion by companies that already had more than a leg up in terms of exposure. Besides, like I've tried to drill into the head of numerous others who simply didn't "get" ECW, how do you expect a show to garner any success when the network it's on perpetually shoots the promotion in the balls? It's very hard to appeal to anyone when nobody even knows you exist.

 

[Kasey]

what the hell is TNA fighting against? They have a global corporation backing them, they just struck a multi-media deal, dont give me that crap. ECW had a way harder time coming up, and much like ECW, TNA is going to crash and burn.

They're also fighting against a corporation that already is the undisputed entrenched entity with regards to American professional wrestling. Period. They have nearly ten hours of programming to draw from each week. Hell, WWE has so much already they just use the weekend for friggin' recap shows. TNA is still very much the rookie in these terms, and just like ECW is having to build it's audience from the ground up. Not rely on years and years of programming and fanbase that's already been established. Regardless of how much funding might be behind TNA.

 

[Kasey]

You mean the people who chant ECW? I know 9 year old kids who chant ECW at WWE shows. Its trendy to like ECW and say "Ohh man ECW was great". Chanting ECW doesnt mean they were a fan back in the bingo hall days.

TNA, much like ECW, is making themselves an "alternative" to the WWE. And thats fine, but being an alternative doesnt make you better.

The ECW chants are fewer and further between these days because of Vince's lovely "direction" of the product. Being an alternative makes you better when the established company is a farce that is a shell of its former self. Look at your avatar if you want a prime example as to why people with respect for the business no longer take an unabashed shine to WWE programming anymore. When a company displays workrate that kicks the ass of its competition consistently and in an uncontested manner for years at a clip, it looks better to me. After all...you don't see TNA cancelling any of their functions due to "WWE" chants, do you? They aren't perfect, but I'll take 'em as is over what WWE craps out in a nanosecond.

 

[Kasey]

IMO, K-Fed and Rated RKO did great jobs as heels. Rated RKO are about to split up after an awesome run with DX. I think that Orton should fight Edge at Wrestlemania. K-Fed played a perfect heel because it fit with his real life character. If you hate those three guys, then that means they are doing their job. I DO agree with the guy who said that Stone Cold should come back and stunner Khali..i wouldn't mind that happening.

K-Fed was a great heel, but it does about the same for the WWE Championship when he gets a fall on Cena as David Arquette winning the WCW title. It devalues the worth of your top guy instantly. I do like Edge and Orton, but not as tag champions. That division needs strictly tag teams and not singles competitors posing as tag teams. It's the same thing I hated about Styles and Daniels in TNA. There are enough tag teams or unfocused singles competitors that need a direction that could easily have been wrangled into a team to try and rescue the division. Orton should fight Edge at Wrestlemania. It should also be for the WWE title and Cena shouldn't be involved. I wouldn't even want to see Khali get a Stunner. I'd just like to see him disappear.

 

[Kasey]

What is everyones big lovefest with Austin? He cant wrestle anymore hes as fragile as wedding china. He may be back before Mania just to promote his movie coming out then he will go away. That being said as much as I am sick of Austin Raw needs all the help they can get for about 6 months till Trips the real francise comes back and kicks ass as only he can

Austin won't be wrestling, everyone just misses his personality. His neck is completely done, so his last big match was at WM19 against The Rock. He is being brought in just to promote his movie, but also because they need a familiar face to help with Wrestlemania now that their big gun (HHH) is out. I'd just like Austin to swear and give out Stunners. He doesn't even need to do anything else remotely fancy. Just the basics. Maybe even hit Vince with another bedpan.

 

[Shining Wizard]

Hmm most kids don't know what TNA is. But the WWE Marks are so used to hear these ECW chants so they chant it but at a live event I went to. It was Smackdown/ECW. I was in the group that started the TNA chants and it were grown man in the age gorup of 18-34 years old. It was a planned chant. We were going to do it because the main event was boring. Whenever the kids looked at us, they were like WTF? are they talking about. The difference between TNA and ECW chants is that the fans don't know what TNA is but most WWE marks know what ECW is because it's been around longer.

I agree alot of people jumped on the TNA bandwaggon when they got Angle and a prime time slot. I've been down with TNA since I first saw it on Spike. Back before they got a weekday slot. Only when they had one show on Sunday at 11. I do agree, alot of fans did jump on the TNA fan base. I know this from experience because I used to have friends that said TNA sucks and etc and now they are saying it's the best thing to happen to wrestling.

So yes I agree some fans did jump on the fan base but most of the fans starting these chants have been with TNA for a long time.

 

[Kaedon]

They're also fighting against a corporation that already is the undisputed entrenched entity with regards to American professional wrestling.

Yeah, but they have major money and a great time slot. They have all the money they could ever want. Feds like CZW are a lot worse off

They have nearly ten hours of programming to draw from each week. Hell, WWE has so much already they just use the weekend for friggin' recap shows. TNA is still very much the rookie in these terms, and just like ECW is having to build it's audience from the ground up. Not rely on years and years of programming and fanbase that's already been established. Regardless of how much funding might be behind TNA.

And this recap show manages to outdraw TNA Impact at times, how pathetic is that?

Actually, ECW was the most thieved-upon company of the last twenty years with regards to what it did for the business. The fact that every WWE mark can't see this is appalling. Remember the Attitude Era? It was ECW with better pyro and a larger entrance way.

Actually, back at that time, and from way before, the American society was moving towards a harder-core entertainment. ECW never brought it to any mainstream so who did it affect? The 1200 people in the bingo hall? ECW came to my home town once and drew 100-300 people ever.

If ECW received the kind of backing and exposure that some of its contemporaries had, it would've been a bigger hit than any of them. Want proof? Look at the consistent stable of stars they produced that McMahon just transferred to his show. Austin. Foley. RVD. The Dudleys. Look at the guys WCW stole. Saturn. Malenko. Guererro. Benoit. Mysterio. These guys were the backbone of ECW and were basically just cut and pasted directly into the fold of WWF and WCW programming and were just marketed in a wider fashion by companies that already had more than a leg up in terms of exposure. Besides, like I've tried to drill into the head of numerous others who simply didn't "get" ECW, how do you expect a show to garner any success when the network it's on perpetually shoots the promotion in the balls?

Isnt it funny that Saturn, Malenko, Foley, RVD, Eddie, Benoit, and Mysterio never got the big strap in ECW? They always played second fiddle to second rate hardcore pieces of shit like Sandman, Dreamer, and Sabu. Only in the WWE could an actual good WRESTLER become world champ and not some hardcore spot monkey. ECW did nothing that hadnt been done already.

High Flying- Happened in WCW (see Brian Pillman (Heyman even said so himself))

Hardcore- Seen in the NWA (see matches like Sting/Ric Flair vs. Muta/Bob Orton in an electrified Steel Cage Match in the early - mid 1980s)

Smaller guys getting over- See fucking Ric Flair and Terry Funk

 

[Kasey]

Yeah, but they have major money and a great time slot. They have all the money they could ever want. Feds like CZW are a lot worse off

Correction. They have a budget that the parent company allots them because it may be owned by Panda, but is not 100% supplied with all of the money they want. That's why Spike was required to put up some of the cash for Angle's contract. CZW might be a lot worse off. That doesn't mean they don't have the same opportunities that TNA has had. This is why they just can't go blowing their respective load on tours at present. They don't just stick around the Impact Zone just because they absolutely love sunny Orlando.

And this recap show manages to outdraw TNA Impact at times, how pathetic is that?

I don't know, considering the mass marketing WWE does for all of its programs that stretches a few networks and has for years...as opposed to TNA which is just now enjoying its first year or so with ONE hour on ONE network. Who would you expect to be the higher draw?

Actually, back at that time, and from way before, the American society was moving towards a harder-core entertainment. ECW never brought it to any mainstream so who did it affect? The 1200 people in the bingo hall? ECW came to my home town once and drew 100-300 people ever.

If the mainstream American society was so f**king gung-ho about "hardcore" product, then why did Heyman have to BEG to get his first PPV put back on the air due to content issues. And why did TNN censor the hell out of it and basically cut the product off at the knees? Oh, because everyone was looking for hardcore entertainment?

Isnt it funny that Saturn, Malenko, Foley, RVD, Eddie, Benoit, and Mysterio never got the big strap in ECW? They always played second fiddle to second rate hardcore pieces of shit like Sandman, Dreamer, and Sabu. Only in the WWE could an actual good WRESTLER become world champ and not some hardcore spot monkey. ECW did nothing that hadnt been done already.

Yes, and the majority of them weren't even there long enough to denote a strap push. Heyman ended up learning that the hard way with Mike Awesome running of to WCW with his belt. Do you expect him to push a wrestler to the top that isn't likely to be around in six months? Did you even watch any of the matches from ECW's early days? How about Barely Legal 1997? If you still see Sandman as a "hardcore piece of shit" then you have absolutely zero taste in sacrifice and workrate because the main event that night was something light years ahead of anything done by the big two. Same for Sabu's match that evening. Apparently, with he and Taz tearing the house down it was a matter of time before Vince whipped out the checkbook to lure away Taz, so they must've done something worthy of the almighty WWF's attention. Only could an actual good wrestler become champion? Have you been toking the gonge with RVD? Batista SUCKS. Cena SUCKS. Lashley has raw athletic talent but is greener than Gumby and needs at least three more years of seasoning before he'll actually be a credit to the ECW title. ECW did nothing that hadn't been done already? Who the hell are you kidding? Sure, a lot of the hardcore stuff had been done in Japan, but stateside Vince was still pushing horseshit gimmicks like Bastian Booger and The Goon while Heyman was building the blueprint for what McMahon was set to steal in 1997 when he "re-invented" Raw. So please, spare me the mark point-of-view.

High Flying- Happened in WCW (see Brian Pillman (Heyman even said so himself))

Sure, and ECW definitely had nothing to do with bringing a couple of name cruiserweights to the US that coincidentally ended up working for Eric Bischoff less than a year or so later. And Pillman was no luchador, so don't get ahead of yourself with that one. His finisher was a top-rope sunset flip. Spectacular for the time, but then again they had to keep importing Liger to actually get him some competition.

Hardcore- Seen in the NWA (see matches like Sting/Ric Flair vs. Muta/Bob Orton in an electrified Steel Cage Match in the early - mid 1980s)

You have the audacity to compare that stone-age encounter with the likes of RVD/Lynn or Tanaka/Awesome. We have no point in continuing this debate because logic is as foreign to you as mainland China.

Smaller guys getting over- See fucking Ric Flair and Terry Funk

That's two out of how many? Notice Eddie didn't get over until he roided his ass up to Flair's old working weight of 240? That's the bare minimum. Benoit was given his bone, but after they gave him a couple of months on top for all his hard work and dedication, they promptly chucked his ass back to the midcard. Same with Mysterio. By the way...there is a huge difference between being small and getting a push and being small and getting over.

 

[Downward Spiral]

The next big step for TNA has got to be going to two hours. I am not sure if it is a certainty but people seem to be under the impression that TNA is going this way. This really opens the door to see some true matches that showcase the ability they have. This also would appear to be the opening that TNA needs to include a womens division. If you saw the Raw womens match this week, then you would know the bar is set awfully low for the standard that women should set in the ring nowadays. I pray that this division does not come about, because it will really ruin the credibility of the show because women cannot cut it against 15-20 minute X-Division classics.

The viewers would really turn to TNA if they saw 2 hours of live, action packed wrestling that TNA has the ability to show. This will be very interesting to see how they handle it, but I believe it can only do good for them. It opens the door to have longer, less rushed matches and it will make room for a lot more wrestlers to become more prominent on the TV. 1 hour is unjust to the level of talent and competition that is being wasted because they cannot go for the amount of time that the fans want to see.

The downside is that they will have to fill in a lot of time that their matches cannot do. This will mean more pointless promos, and more things that the WWE programming is full of to make the time length that they have. But still, I don't know if this is a certainty, but it will definitely help TNA against the WWE, and it leads to more things like: Shows in a lot more arenas, more talent coming in, international television markets becoming interested and a more free, laid back Impact that allows the wrestlers to do what they want without restricting the time in which they can do that.

Does anyone actually know that they are definitely moving up in the time length? I think they definitely have to though.

 

[dirtyshubb]

From what i have read both TNA and Spike have talked about it and decided that they will but there has been some disagreement over money and what not. This will hopefully be the final milestone that TNA need to pass to have all the tools needed to give the best show that they can give.
Im all for a womens division as long as it is not anything like WWE which Vince himself has said that because of Trish anfd Lita leaving will become more about T&A(which i think we all agree on is not what anyone wants to see.

 

[I Eat Cat Poo]

im a wwe fan been watching it ever since 97 and im not like those other wwe fans who are fanboys and bash tna just for no reason but to act cool pretty immature thats what we did in elementary and halfta wonder how old they are to act that immature but anyways i been a loyal wwe fan but these last few weeks are just painful to watch i mean they show the same dumb shit day in and day out there making the exact same mistake wcw did which caused them to go out and a lot of wrestlers unhappy i love tna and i like it better than wwe right now there storylines arent THAT bad but better than wwe's especially the abyss story line and the way impact ended last week was upright sweet and unexpected which that was what the wwe use to do but wwe is so predictable right now i could see a card for a show and pretty much know whos gunna win and what not i hope tna gets 2 hours so they can showcase more of there talent and make wwe become more fun to watch again but right now it just boring and insults my inteligence idk how some ppl havent heard of tna or even know what it stands for i knew what tna was when they didnt even had tv time and were on ppvs

 

[Doc Taboc]

I Love wrestling. If Wanted soap operas id watch then in the daytime. I dont need lights and fireworks. I dont need chearleaders or boogiemen or greasers from the 50's. WWE Appeals to kids. TNA appeals to wrestling fans. Think About this. and your 2 hours this and 2 hours that. Why is there more matches in a 1 hour show of TNA then a 2+ show of WWE. Because WWE fans like story line and not a good fight. It doesn't matter in WWE who wins. Who's champ ... the belt there is meaningless. But in TNA thats the goal to each of them. The one belt the top of the top and will show their audience they dont care which bone they have to break to prove it to the crowd.

 

[Downward Spiral]

^^ You make some good points there. TNA doesn't reach as far as the WWE does to try and create entertainment. The WWE just tries to make it interesting for kids and people who don't know much about old school wrestling. The fan who wants to see wrestling is at the bottom of the WWE's priorities in regards to importance. At TNA, it is the top. That is why you get to see so much wrestling that pleases the fans. But the Attitude Era wasn't as good as it was because of just pure wrestling, they were able to combine great storylines with great wrestling that made it incredibly entertaining for all types of wrestling fans. At times, the two shows can be completely unbalanced in regards to this. The WWE needs to learn that they have fans who love the business more than the marks they cater for constantly. We don't want to see guys like Khali, Cena and skits shoved down our throats as some money and viewer grabbing scheme. TNA is one that caters completely for the smark fan of pure wrestling, yet that fan also wants to see segments of the show like the Attitude Era had. Both shows lack the wrestlers that made the business popular, but TNA makes up for that in the fact that their competition is outstanding, which makes the matches and feuds even better.

You could excuse the WWE for having to fill three shows worth of 'wrestling' and so would have to put promos in, but then you see their PPV wrestling, which should be second to none, and yet is still booked in a way that we hate to see and has caused their slump. Impact should be blown out of the water because the WWE has 2 hours to show their stuff, yet the rushed booking of Impact still beats any skit the WWE throws together, and we don't deserve to see that crap from them.

The WWE needs to build on the wrestlers that they have and start making the programming more interesting and the competition better. TNA is so good because like you said, the belts mean something. The wrestlers are in TNA to show their skill to the fans and they dedicate themselves to that. The WWE and their wrestlers are just there to make money and sell merchandise.

I don't think that TNA will ever reach the fanbase the WWE has because no matter how crap the WWE gets, the marks will lap it all up because they no longer want to see the stuff TNA puts on. I pray that TNA doesn't get desperate and tries to emulate the shit that the WWE gives us because it would ruin the credibility that they have built up as being a completely unique company. TNA should just keep on trucking whereas the WWE should work on fixing the problems they can easily fix and working there way out of the giant hole they have dug themselves into. Why bother calling it wrestling when they show matches that go for the amount of time a one hour show is meant to give? That plus skits to grab attention from the media.

In short, the WWE makes kids cheer with their crap. TNA makes wrestling fans proud that there is a company which can give them the wrestling they crave so much. TNA may not be perfect but WWE fans need to see this like a smoker would. He has gone so long without a cigarette (pure wrestling in this case) that any chance to get it, they will see it as pure bliss and something really enjoyable. The rest of the fans have worked off their cravings that they once had and are now seeing what would be perceived as crap in the 90's WWE, as the standard of so called wrestling today. They don't want wrestling anymore. All the WWE is now, is a soap opera for men. TNA is giving fans an old-school wrestling show.

Not the best metaphorical situation but at least I got it.

 

[Downward Spiral]

I am sorry that I didn't get around to posting this again. It took me a while but here goes (I was getting bored with the lack of discussion as well)

I understand what your saying but by no mean's could that match be considered a "Big Match" it had no build up, no backstory, and was really just a match thrown in for good measure, I also don't consider AJ a up-and-comer because he has held every title in TNA and that's what makes his sqaush match to Angle even more insulting to me, but I have to agree for newer TNA/ mostly WWE fans a competitve match between the two would have made AJ Styles look alot better in their eyes and it's what AJ deserve's, and on your last statement I think your wrong look at what WWE is doing right now with CM Punk(Who by the way is more over than most guys in the company, I mean he was the main guy getting cheered on at this past Summer Slam on team with DX and The Hardyz and he recived the loudest pops)having him lose to Hardcore Holly, I don't give a flying f*ck if Punk has a big head or not he's the most backable star in ECW(Yeah over RVD)and should be destroying guys like Holly, so I don't think you can say the WWE wouldn't do it too.

What I meant was that the match could have really showed what talent AJ had when he went against the best in the business. There is no better way to build a wrestler than to have him take it with someone the audience sees as one of the top wrestlers today. But they ruined it to keep it in the time limit. That made AJ look weak, no doubt about it. The fans saw AJ as a huge talent and one that can go places in the business, so I am in no doubt that it didn't need build up to have high expectations from it. AJ has achieved almost everything, but he is young and deserved to do better than that. But they could have easily elevated him from any perception as a young talent he had in anyones eyes, to someone that is an experienced wrestler. They blew it by making him look pathetic after years of making him look brilliant. It was an insult to his talent, no doubt about that.

You missed the point of my last statement. What I meant was that in the Attitude Era when credible guys got pushed and everyone looked strong, that they would never have let a young talent lose like TNA did to AJ. I think the WWE is definitely doing that now, more often than not to spite wrestlers for backstage issues. The WWE used to know that talent deserves to look like that and that is why you saw so many good wrestlers in the main event spot and have them get exploding pops. They ruined AJ's credibility by doing what they did, and a guy like him would never have that happen to him years ago. The guy would be canned immediately today in the WWE if he had no marketing ability though.

Now this is where we disagree Angle is Angle him losing the thrid match against Joe (As he should have) wouldn't have hurt him in anyway, him having competitive matches against AJ and Abyss wouldn't have made him look bad in anyway even if he had lost to any of the above named talent as they are TNA's best people wouldn't have thought anyless of Angle, Now as far as Christain I think he deserved his push way more then Angle because of the same reason's you named, when Christain came in he and TNA said that WWE was holding him back and now free of their creative control he would become a impact player, they had to make CHristain a bankable star but Angle already is one which is the reason I believe Christain push was and still is a good decidion and Angle's win-lose-or draw is still going to be Kurt Angle one of the best wrestlers of our times.

I think that TNA has overpushed Angle when they needed to give him a solid push. Once a guy starts an undefeated streak, the end means trouble. I agree that they should have had competitive matches but you can't deny that he is now a top star in TNA. But at the cost of that he has destroyed two guys who worked hard to reach the top and he has come in and straight away is at the top. I think reputation has a part in his push, but it seems like it shouldn't. Angle doesn't need to look good though, so the push does seem pointless. It would have given him the wrong idea about TNA if he lost straight away though, so I think the push had to happen, as much as I don't like it.

Christian is a very different case. He was a mid card at best wrestler who had talent but could never take off. He really had no right to go to the top but in this case, they didn't make him go over talent like Angle has. Instead of a guy like Christian main eventing constantly, I think that AJ or Joe should have had a lengthy stay at the top. But on the other hand, I do see your point that it didn't hurt anyone when he went to the top. I just don't think he deserved to because his reputation isn't as flattering as Angles. Angle could definitely do more for the company than Cage could, so he is more worthy of being TNA champ as quick as Christian was.

I totally agree with you hear, I think they did a good joe setting up the Joe-Angle feud on such short notice, and I don't think that Angle dominated or destroyed Joe but I just think that Joe(as TNA's unbeatable monster for month's) should have gone over in their feud ans AJ heel or not should have at the very least had a competive match with Kurt.

I think that when Angle came in that he should have come out on top in his first feud, but it had to be a worthy one. Beating the unbeatable guy is a bit too much and I think that SURELY Joe deserved to get a win, because all Angle had to do was make himself look strong, not just by winning. AJ as heel deserved to have a match worthy of being called competitive, but with the strains on Impact this is always hard. But that still leaves TNA with no excuse as to how weak they made him look, because it wouldn't have hurt to make him look even half as good as Angle. Do I think Angle deserves to come out on top? Yes, but only if the opponent benefits from it, which AJ and Joe didn't.

Like I said maybe not today or tomorrow but one day this will cause a problem as Angle has a WWE size ego and will rub alot of the smaller stared TNA guys the wrong way sooner rather then later, you have already seen it happen with Christain coming in as that's what drove Monty Brown to WWE as he wanted a title regin but Christain then Sting stole has spot, i'm just waiting to see who Angle will drive away as I think it's only a matter of time.

I know they wanted Angle to be a top guy quickly but it really in my opinion hurt some of their top talent and overall product as Angle comes in and makes TNA look like the small leagues, and what I exactly mean by that is Angle was barely out of WWE before he was stopping TNA's top stars, even though I get the point about TNA needing him to be a immediate impact player I still think they should have slowed down the Angle's main event development and focused on making Angle more TNA than WWE.[/QUOTE]

You could be right in that TNA fans may still associate him with the WWE, but the fact is that everyone knows he is one of the best alive today. He needed no push over the TNA guys to get that across. I don't think it mattered that he was from WWE. Perhaps an Anti-WWE promo or two at the beginning may have helped (forgive me if he did because I cannot watch TNA.) They should definitely brought him up in the mid cards, but they obviously want him main eventing, and so does Angle. They wouldn't buy it if he went straight into it, but they rushed it in my opinion. All it does is make Angle look good and it made the TNA guys look weak against HIM, and I don't think it made the WWE look more credible.

I have to say I agree and I know they couldn't have made him a immediate main event star but they shouldn't have anyway as Angle needed a little more time away from WWE TV to be considered a TNA guy, I mean I see him week after week on TNA and still consider him a WWE guy it takes time to make that change over, and that's why I believe TNA should have gone with a slower build up to Angle becoming a full-time main event TNA headlining star but the rest of your comments are right on point as I would have never made the decidion to have Angle come in and make my talent look less then the very best, and it's not so much the beat AJ, Aybss, and Joe as most of the wins he has he makes them look weak in the ring (well not really Joe), if all the matches had been highly competitve and Angle won I would probaly still have a small problem with it but at the very least we could say he's getting the TNA guys over making them look good against a true Mega star in wrestling.

I will say that they could have benefited so much more from Angle and his ties with the WWE than they did. A few weeks pledging allegiance to TNA would make him feel like more of a TNA star, but destoying TNA wrestlers hard fought credibility was never the way to bring him in. He could have looked like the best wrestler there, but he also could have made other guys just as good, which would have done heaps for TNA credibility. They have done it wrong with Angle and his build up, for many reasons. Simple as that. AJ, Sting and Joe look weaker for it. Now that I think of it, it wasn't so much the speed of the push, but it was how it went about. I think TNA is responsible for what they did, but Angle should take some credit for that as he has a well known ego and likes to get his way. Or else. TNA didn't want to give him a bad impression as soon as he came in, but what impression did that give the TNA stars who worked there ass off to look good in the ring, only to have them job to an undefeated Angle in uncompetitive matches and a feud. He is a headliner now, but he also took away credibility from guys in the worst way possible and now looks head and shoulders ahead of competition that could have looked a lot stronger.

Again, sorry it took so long.

 

[I Eat Cat Poo]

wwe seems like a gay version of seasme street they need to stop making it suitable for kids and get goin on the product everytime cena comes out all you hear are high pitched yelling same with batista wwe might as well change there rating from tv 14 to rated y

 

[showtyme27]

I am sorry that I didn't get around to posting this again. It took me a while but here goes (I was getting bored with the lack of discussion as well)

No problem, I know what mean I can barely find time anymore.

What I meant was that the match could have really showed what talent AJ had when he went against the best in the business. There is no better way to build a wrestler than to have him take it with someone the audience sees as one of the top wrestlers today. But they ruined it to keep it in the time limit. That made AJ look weak, no doubt about it. The fans saw AJ as a huge talent and one that can go places in the business, so I am in no doubt that it didn't need build up to have high expectations from it. AJ has achieved almost everything, but he is young and deserved to do better than that. But they could have easily elevated him from any perception as a young talent he had in anyones eyes, to someone that is an experienced wrestler. They blew it by making him look pathetic after years of making him look brilliant. It was an insult to his talent, no doubt about that.

To me not much can make AJ Styles look "WEAK" but then again I know and watch alot of wrestling that normal/average fans don't follow, so I know just how talented AJ really is, the problem with the match to me was TNA is tring WAY too hard to get AJ over as a heel and in turn in makes AJ look "Weak" in and out of the ring having run away from certain guys, having him team-up with other heels, they refuse to just let it happen which too me it feels like his heel character is being force fed to me and I don't like it, but I agree he deserve's better and should have at the very least some offencive moves in the match.

You missed the point of my last statement. What I meant was that in the Attitude Era when credible guys got pushed and everyone looked strong, that they would never have let a young talent lose like TNA did to AJ. I think the WWE is definitely doing that now, more often than not to spite wrestlers for backstage issues. The WWE used to know that talent deserves to look like that and that is why you saw so many good wrestlers in the main event spot and have them get exploding pops. They ruined AJ's credibility by doing what they did, and a guy like him would never have that happen to him years ago. The guy would be canned immediately today in the WWE if he had no marketing ability though.

Again it's going to take alot more then that little squash match to truly hurt AJ credibility, it's happening now it happened back then it's apart of the business at times you have to job weather it be to new/up-and-coming/or mega stars sooner or later everyone in wrestling jobs and AJ is no exception, I understand your point I just don't agree WWE did and still does it's talent the same way or worse then TNA did Styles, but it's good that a STAR like AJ is willing to job to other stars as it proves once again that he cares more about the company then his own career and he doesn't think he's above the other talent on the TNA roster, can TNA say the same about Angle?

I think that TNA has overpushed Angle when they needed to give him a solid push. Once a guy starts an undefeated streak, the end means trouble. I agree that they should have had competitive matches but you can't deny that he is now a top star in TNA. But at the cost of that he has destroyed two guys who worked hard to reach the top and he has come in and straight away is at the top. I think reputation has a part in his push, but it seems like it shouldn't. Angle doesn't need to look good though, so the push does seem pointless. It would have given him the wrong idea about TNA if he lost straight away though, so I think the push had to happen, as much as I don't like it.

On some level I agree, it's no way TNA could have stolen him from WWE if they had him lose match after match but I wouldn't have fed him my top stars right away Abyss, AJ Styles, and Samoa Joe three guys that are most reconized with the TNA product, reputation or not Angle would still be Angle if he lost those matches or won them or had a draw each time out as most people already have their mind made up about Angle being one of the greatest ever in the ring, but like you said it would have been hard to keep a Angle calibur star happy coming in of a losing streak but they could have fed him their smaller stars first.

Christian is a very different case. He was a mid card at best wrestler who had talent but could never take off. He really had no right to go to the top but in this case, they didn't make him go over talent like Angle has. Instead of a guy like Christian main eventing constantly, I think that AJ or Joe should have had a lengthy stay at the top. But on the other hand, I do see your point that it didn't hurt anyone when he went to the top. I just don't think he deserved to because his reputation isn't as flattering as Angles. Angle could definitely do more for the company than Cage could, so he is more worthy of being TNA champ as quick as Christian was.

I disagree, Angle may be a bigger star but Christian is the un-tapped star, Angle has had his time to shine and will always somewhat be considered a WWE guy, but Chriatian was just the guy that couldn't catch a break in WWE and now that his recived his chance he has to deliver because unlike Angle he doesn't have megastar power too fall back on, so in my eyes Christian's rise to the top makes way more sense then Angle's.

I think that when Angle came in that he should have come out on top in his first feud, but it had to be a worthy one. Beating the unbeatable guy is a bit too much and I think that SURELY Joe deserved to get a win, because all Angle had to do was make himself look strong, not just by winning. AJ as heel deserved to have a match worthy of being called competitive, but with the strains on Impact this is always hard. But that still leaves TNA with no excuse as to how weak they made him look, because it wouldn't have hurt to make him look even half as good as Angle. Do I think Angle deserves to come out on top? Yes, but only if the opponent benefits from it, which AJ and Joe didn't.

Again I disagree, In no way should Kurt Angle (WWE former golden boy) come in and defeat Samoa Joe (ROH former golden boy and TNA's current golden boy), they had three matches Angle won the first Joe won the second and Angle pulled out the thrid but Joe should have won that thrid match as he's way more deserving then a slivered spooned Angle, Angle could have gone on with that lost but now they have he and christian in the main event of their next PPV too me that's pretty dumb, I understand your tring to bring in new fans that might reconize them but they should be tring to push the talent they made famous like AJ, Daniels, Killings, and Joe.

I know they wanted Angle to be a top guy quickly but it really in my opinion hurt some of their top talent and overall product as Angle comes in and makes TNA look like the small leagues, and what I exactly mean by that is Angle was barely out of WWE before he was stopping TNA's top stars, even though I get the point about TNA needing him to be a immediate impact player I still think they should have slowed down the Angle's main event development and focused on making Angle more TNA than WWE.

I totally agree, and this has a lot to do with my point, the thing TNA didn't seem to get is their fans was watching WWE wrestling first their for they knew who Angle was and he was going to be a big/top star no matter what, and I think that moving Angle up the card at this speed will backfire anyway because sooner or later they will have to take him out of the main event, and he'll have to do those mid-card feuds that he should be doing now but by that time he will be a considered more of a TNA guy which would have been a better time to have him tear through the TNA roster.

You could be right in that TNA fans may still associate him with the WWE, but the fact is that everyone knows he is one of the best alive today. He needed no push over the TNA guys to get that across. I don't think it mattered that he was from WWE. Perhaps an Anti-WWE promo or two at the beginning may have helped (forgive me if he did because I cannot watch TNA.) They should definitely brought him up in the mid cards, but they obviously want him main eventing, and so does Angle. They wouldn't buy it if he went straight into it, but they rushed it in my opinion. All it does is make Angle look good and it made the TNA guys look weak against HIM, and I don't think it made the WWE look more credible.

I agree with everything except the statment in bold, since more people link Angle to WWE then TNA it had no choice but to make TNA look like the small leagues right now Angle is tearing through their roster and the only competitive matches he had was with Joe, so is TNA tring to give the impression that Joe is their only superstar?, is Joe the only guy on the roster that can hang with Angle?, it doesn't matter how you answer those questions as that's the way it seems TNA wants you to think, so your telling me it doesn't look good for WWE when Angle was jobbing to Cena and RVD and Big Show before he left now all of a sudden he can make everyone on the TNA roster look like joke accept for Joe? something wrong there don't you think?

I will say that they could have benefited so much more from Angle and his ties with the WWE than they did. A few weeks pledging allegiance to TNA would make him feel like more of a TNA star, but destoying TNA wrestlers hard fought credibility was never the way to bring him in. He could have looked like the best wrestler there, but he also could have made other guys just as good, which would have done heaps for TNA credibility. They have done it wrong with Angle and his build up, for many reasons. Simple as that. AJ, Sting and Joe look weaker for it. Now that I think of it, it wasn't so much the speed of the push, but it was how it went about. I think TNA is responsible for what they did, but Angle should take some credit for that as he has a well known ego and likes to get his way. Or else. TNA didn't want to give him a bad impression as soon as he came in, but what impression did that give the TNA stars who worked there ass off to look good in the ring, only to have them job to an undefeated Angle in uncompetitive matches and a feud. He is a headliner now, but he also took away credibility from guys in the worst way possible and now looks head and shoulders ahead of competition that could have looked a lot stronger

.

I agree with this statment if TNA would have worked a little harder to make Angle more of a TNA guy his dominice over the TNA roster wouldn'r bother people as much while I agree Christian is a smaller star he is a better choice for TNA then a mega star like Angle to tell the truth I would have rather they brought in amazingly talented guys like Bryan Danielson, Doug Williams, Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, and Kaz Hayashi as the have no major ties to major american companies (ROH doesn't count and even though Kaz was a WCW wrestler he never got the chance to truly show what he can do in a ring) as TNA should be tring to distance it's self from being too much like the WWE but unstead they are running towards it wildly with their arms wide open, thinking that WWE style TV is what every fan wants but it's not I don't won't too see four versions of a WWE style show I have RAW, Smackdown!, ECW and I don't won't TNA to be the same shit I watch on the other shows I want something different and TNA used to give us that but now slowly but surely TNA is becoming WWE light, by signing and making stars of guys the fans don't know haven't seen they would be becoming their own company well at least in my opinion.

 

[Kaedon]

Correction. They have a budget that the parent company allots them because it may be owned by Panda, but is not 100% supplied with all of the money they want. That's why Spike was required to put up some of the cash for Angle's contract. CZW might be a lot worse off. That doesn't mean they don't have the same opportunities that TNA has had. This is why they just can't go blowing their respective load on tours at present. They don't just stick around the Impact Zone just because they absolutely love sunny Orlando.

That doesnt take away from the fact that ECW didnt have 1/50th of the money TNA has at present time. Just because TNA make apparently stupid business decisions doesnt mean they dont have the money.

I don't know, considering the mass marketing WWE does for all of its programs that stretches a few networks and has for years...as opposed to TNA which is just now enjoying its first year or so with ONE hour on ONE network. Who would you expect to be the higher draw?

ITS A RECAP SHOW!!!! How many commercials do you see for AM Raw? Airing at a time when most people are asleep, drunk, or otherwise out of it. If it was Raw on at 2am, I'd agree, but its just a shit recap show.

If the mainstream American society was so f**king gung-ho about "hardcore" product, then why did Heyman have to BEG to get his first PPV put back on the air due to content issues. And why did TNN censor the hell out of it and basically cut the product off at the knees? Oh, because everyone was looking for hardcore entertainment?

I didnt say HARDCORE, I said hardercore. Mortal Kombat, at the time was the most violent things on the market, kids loved it and parents hated it. TNN Censored it because it was being sponsored by very conservative companies. That doesnt mean that the trend wasnt going that way. Are you telling me bloody and gory fighting games, movies, and tv shows werent showing that? Just because one redneck, close minded cable company decided to be overly cautious doenst mean the rest of the country wasnt that way. Your logic makes no sense.

Yes, and the majority of them weren't even there long enough to denote a strap push. Heyman ended up learning that the hard way with Mike Awesome running of to WCW with his belt. Do you expect him to push a wrestler to the top that isn't likely to be around in six months?

Maybe if he had gotten Benoit a visa it would have worked out better. But no, its not Heymans fault, its the big bad WWE/WCWs fault.

Did you even watch any of the matches from ECW's early days? How about Barely Legal 1997? If you still see Sandman as a "hardcore piece of shit" then you have absolutely zero taste in sacrifice and workrate because the main event that night was something light years ahead of anything done by the big two.

Sacrafice is all well and good, but it doesnt make you a good wrestler. It makes you insane and maybe a little bit stupid, especially for the LACK of money they were getting. Pride goeth before the fall. Sandman and almost all of the old ECW main eventers knew fuck all about ring pshycology, despite Raven trying to teach it to them. He said it himself, you dont need 5,000 chair shots, you just have to sell well and have good psychology, and I saw ZERO from guys like Sandman and Sabu. It was all about getting over with the bloodthirsty idiots in the bingo hall by any means necessary. They couldnt take a Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair, they wanted tables, barbed wire, and 2x4s on fire. Thats not wrestling, thats garbage. Next youre gonna tell me New Jack was the greatest in ring technician of all time.

Same for Sabu's match that evening. Apparently, with he and Taz tearing the house down it was a matter of time before Vince whipped out the checkbook to lure away Taz, so they must've done something worthy of the almighty WWF's attention.

1997, yeah Vince sure jumped on Tazz. What did he take 2 years to get him?

Only could an actual good wrestler become champion? Have you been toking the gonge with RVD? Batista SUCKS. Cena SUCKS. Lashley has raw athletic talent but is greener than Gumby and needs at least three more years of seasoning before he'll actually be a credit to the ECW title.

Batista, and especially CENA sell the shit out of their matches. Sandman takes a chair shot and he comes back a minute or 2 later running full blast because he doesnt care that hes sposed to LOOK HURT, he wants to show how "tough" he is totally disreguarding EVERYTHING REAL wrestlers like Flair, Savage, Steamboat, Hogan, Race, and the rest of them fought so hard to create. No its not about psychology, its about making the crowd go HOLY SHIT HE HIT HIM WITH A FLAMING CHAIR!

ECW did nothing that hadn't been done already? Who the hell are you kidding? Sure, a lot of the hardcore stuff had been done in Japan, but stateside Vince was still pushing horseshit gimmicks like Bastian Booger and The Goon while Heyman was building the blueprint for what McMahon was set to steal in 1997 when he "re-invented" Raw. So please, spare me the mark point-of-view.

I'll say this again....

Sting/Flair vs. Muta/Orton WCW Halloween Havoc 1989 in an ELECTRIFIED STEEL CAGE MATCH, LONG BEFORE ECW. Roddy Piper vs. Greg The Hammer Valentine in a DOG COLLAR MATCH. Piper lost part of his ear LONG BEFORE MICK FUCKING FOLEY!! And guess what, Killer Kawalski took someones ears off BEFORE THAT!!! LONG BEFORE ECW!!!! So why dont you check your fucking facts and spare me the elitist SMARK point of view.

Sure, and ECW definitely had nothing to do with bringing a couple of name cruiserweights to the US that coincidentally ended up working for Eric Bischoff less than a year or so later. And Pillman was no luchador, so don't get ahead of yourself with that one. His finisher was a top-rope sunset flip. Spectacular for the time, but then again they had to keep importing Liger to actually get him some competition.

The self proclaimed creator of ECW named Pillman the first high flying superstar in the US and youre ignoring it!? He said Pillman was 5 years ahead of his time! Wow way to ignore cold hard fact. Once again, spare me the smark point of view and check your fucking facts.

You have the audacity to compare that stone-age encounter with the likes of RVD/Lynn or Tanaka/Awesome. We have no point in continuing this debate because logic is as foreign to you as mainland China.

Just because it was OLD doenst mean it didnt do something BEFORE ECW did. Youre ignoring fact. Way to go smark.

That's two out of how many? Notice Eddie didn't get over until he roided his ass up to Flair's old working weight of 240? That's the bare minimum. Benoit was given his bone, but after they gave him a couple of months on top for all his hard work and dedication, they promptly chucked his ass back to the midcard. Same with Mysterio. By the way...there is a huge difference between being small and getting a push and being small and getting over.

Yeah, 240 thats SOOOOOOOO BIG. I mean isnt the Big Show 250? Once again your elitist smark view has you ignoring fact. You refuse to accept what is right in front of you, but you choose not to see it because it doesnt fit with your warped smark perception that "D00D ECW INVENTED EVERYTHING G00D ABOUT WRESTLING"