[UnOfficial] WWE vs. TNA Thread - New one active

[Kaedon]

So what is the statute of limitations before you'll denote consistency? When is TNA allowed to declare ratings victory, according to the almighty Kaedon?

So according to you, if in 4 at bats somoene gets 3 hits and a strike out, its consistant? Consisitant means you produce the same numbers TIME AFTER TIME. Week after week, month after month, year after year. Not just 3 times.

Try a boatload of other reporting sites, with Meltzer being one of them. Even Dan Rather has a foulup now and then...and he's on national TV reporting news. Reliability is gradeable like anything else. Wikipedia is DECENT for history at times...when the article has been verified WITH SOURCES. However, Meltzer hasn't received his reputation in the reporting field and had his name out there so long because he's always been doubted. He's pissed off the major companies for a long time because he's let more than his share of cats out of the proverbial bag with regards to shit they wanted kept under wraps. A prediction on a push or match outcome doesn't necessarily disprove that it wasn't the tentative plan at the time. Just like Hogan was reported to be at WM this year against Khali. Now, he's not.

Other websites.....like Fox News.com? CNN.com? Not that these guys dont fucking outright lie as well, but Id trust what I see there over anything that piece of shit Dave Meltzer says anyday.

I'm saying there is a definite possibility that where there is smoke, there is indeed fire. Do I ALWAYS take it as gospel? No. There have been a massive amount of internet reports that were indeed proven true. Including huge reports about WCW's sale to McMahon the day the ink dried, all the way down to Curt Henning's 1997 Nitro debut being let out of the bag weeks in advance on THIS VERY SITE and tons more beyond that. A prediction regarding a push or a roster move is usually on the button more often than not from Meltzer or other guys doing the reporting, but I wouldn't expect you to be able to make a distinction, considering you say you don't always visit the news reports, if at all.

There are also tons other than can be proven false.....

I attack Jake's personal issues when someone defends his character. How often do people come on here discussing with me whether Bret Hart was husband of the year? They don't. The usual topics revolve around wrestling. The only time I'll bust out a particular factoid is if I find it relevant to a point I might be making. But I don't just run around the boards screaming "Jake's a dirty crackhead." Do I think Jake was an amazing performer? Hell, yes I do. Bar none of the best of all time regarding his persona and in-ring stylings. If it weren't for his substance issues, he'd have been the top heel of the 90's as far as I'm concerned. As for Bret, there are some little tidbits I've heard, seen (in shoot interviews) and read that paint a different picture than what a lot of people think.

But if you feel so strongly about it, with which the obvious ferver that you attacked Jake,you do, you should speak about it. Trust me, the first thread I find about Bret Hart and the "screwjob" I will let fucking lose about his winy pansy bitch ass.

No. A lesser of two evils. I don't have inflammatory bowel, so it makes no difference to me. I can survive on nothing but cheeseburgers. I can't on smokes. That's all I was trying to get across. Don't get me wrong, man. I'm a health nut and I hate both, but if held at gunpoint the Big Mac sounds better to me than a pack of Camels, is all.

YOu cant survive on nothing but cheeseburgers. Sorry try again. I thought someone in your position would know that. As well they should also know that smoking doesnt automatically equal cancer. Just as eating a cheeseburger doesnt automatically equal a heart attack. And BTW, since when does one being less bad mean its good? I mean speed and ecstacy isnt as bad as crack, shall we suggest kids start doing those?

How would you know whether or not they could draw if booked right? They have never had as much of a chance as some of the others in the company. With the exception of RVD's moment in the sun before his pot bust, how many of the ECW originals who came over during the acquisition got top spots? Just like a lot of the WCW stalwarts during that time, they were lost in a sea of burials, with Booker T being one of the only survivors himself after a few years of midcard table scraps. Besides, how does it validate the company you're trying to rebuild and the legacy you're trying to keep going, when you take one of it's key players and invalidate him and his title reigns in the span of one match? That really says a lot for intelligent booking. If they were going to have ECW's old guys being nothing but roadkill for the WWE guys, why even call it ECW? It says "Wow, why watch this company of guys who suck when you should instead be watching our A shows?"

Because according to the smarks they were "booked" right in ECW and they could barely draw 1,000 people at their peak.

Yes, they did 2x10.

Fraid not

They'd already had three chances between them (WCW and WWF) to do something with Shane BEFORE he even got into ECW and they didn't. So what, they all of a sudden came to their senses and Vince felt he needed him all of a sudden? Truth is he had zero clue how to use him and saw what Paul did with him. Just like with a handful of others he took.

More of that word, truth. It is the truth to some that Americans should die because we are godless infadels, so I guess thats a fact huh?

Is it just a coincidence that no one except the core ECW fans saw him and thus no one but them cared?

Really? Because I'm positive that without ECW Austin would've had a cushy spot waiting for him up in Stamford, seeing as they were knocking down his door with a job after getting booted out of WCW.

And you have proof of your positiveness of ECWs influence? Because all you have is coincidence that you are reading into it. Does Austin say he owes what he is to ECW? How about Vince? How about Austins friends or coworkers?

There is a difference between being a midcard skidmark used in angles that almost never relied around a top spot to being the WWF Champion more than once and having that come coincidentally AFTER being in ECW. I'm not making this stuff up. It happened.

You mean like Benoit, Malenko and the rest were in ECW? Midcard Skidmarks?

He had become a tweener because they were simultaneously turning Bret bad because his old schtick wasn't working anymore with a changing climate of the audience. So in the place of one match they turned Austin from a edge-straddling tweener to being a bona fide face after WM13. That was the plan and it worked to fruition. It was no accident.

Oh so it was a 9 month face/heel switch? Despite the fact he was getting cheered starting around KOTR? You are so right, I know 9 month face turns are so common....

Because of the example set forth by Heyman's booking, hence the direct talent transplant that worked like a fucking charm as the title had clout. The previous effort for a light division revolved around guys who weren't even suited for high-flying work with the exception of Liger and Pillman, which was hardly enough to build a division around, considering the other focuses were Levy and Armstrong.

Oh yeah, because no one in the history of the world booked cruisers like Heyman...Japan? No. Mexico? No.

There is a difference between a midcard IC title match on Raw having the top spot be a slingshot bulldog as opposed to a guy nearly falling to his death...twice. Which one do you think would draw more of an ovation?

The latter one will get a bigger response, but in either of them, had anyone else been there, it would have gotten over. If you saw anyone take a fall from HIAC, the crowd would errupt because it hadnt been seen. Same with the bulldog. Not that it had NEVER been seen, but the WWE holds that shit back so when it does happen, its not seen as common place. How many guys have gone diving off of cells since in the WWE?

You're probably right about the present. I will say that it has varied though in terms of the past year. There have been times when Masters gets noticeably more heat than Carlito can get pops. And I've also seen where either of them get a shit reaction in terms of their matches.

I havent, please point them out.

Guys as small and as short as Dean Malenko and Eddy? How about Benoit in his earlier days with WCW when they started him as a cruiserweight? Bret being six feet and 230 is hardly small. Same for Flair. Eddy was my height, for pete's sake. Mysterio is the height of my wife. And you just can't fess up to the fact that small guys didn't get the rub. We can argue this over and over again, if you wish.

Oh yeah, Bret at 6ft 230 is such a colossus over Benoit at 5ft10 and 225. I was SO WRONG.

No, you obviously didn't watch the TNA episode to realize that it was PRE-EMPTED. That means, not ON and moved to another time. Thus explaining the one week drop and miraculous recovery. Imagine that?

I didnt know you were in the business of making up excuses. You said there were NO CHANGES in the ratings. It was consistant. Using your logic, if Raws ratings drops off .3 or so I can say "Well the moon was full, and some people might want to go look at it" there is ALWAYS an excuse. And did you see the next week? It didnt go back up to 1.1 did it?

Flair or Hogan blading is nowhere near on par with half of the shit done on an ECW card and it is downright insane to insinuate it is. Their style of working was primarily geared around in-ring work with a moderate amount of outside work (on mats). ECW involved loads of other goodies like ladders that Hogan has never touched, and Flair didn't touch until just recently.

There is a point where bleeding and taking bumps becomes just appeasing the bloodthirsty ****** fans, and ECW crossed that MANY times.

Lou Thesz 220-225. Chris Benoit 235-240 WHEN HE GOT PUSHED. Chris Benoit 220, BEFORE HE GOT PUSHED.

Yeah, because you know all those small guys were all over the WWE at WM 20. Yeah Benoit got heavier when he got pushed. I thought you said he was a "small" guy? You said no one was smaller than Benoit, Thez was. Sorry try again.

You could call any promo in those days a shoot as it wasn't until the nineties when McMahon began having those guys do pre-planned promos. Making racial slurs at a guy is different in nature than the shoot atmosphere of guys like Douglas directly calling out someone else in the other major company numerous times (Flair) and talking severe smack. Do you think that McMahon would've let Pillman show up on Raw right after his WCW departure saying the stuff he did about Bischoff during his five minutes in ECW? No way. And there is a staunch difference between slipping in some racial ribs to hit someone and completely abandoning the concepts of old-school kayfabe where people wouldn't even acknowledge another company's existence, let alone get a wrestler on the mic and have him call them out. Even Vince blurred the WCW title when Flair wore it on WWF tv. Bischoff took a cue from Heyman's style and had Madusa shitcan the WWF Women's belt on LIVE TV.

Oh so before you were saying there were no shoot promos in wrestling before ECW and now, "Oh those all COULD be shoots" make up your fucking mind!

That you even call that a division is hilarious. Five guys who they didn't know what to do with is loads different from what WCW recreated the second time around due to a direct pilfering of talent from ECW and eventually from other organizations. And I'm talking about reference to a SUCCESSFUL division. One that actually lasts past a year. Do you even think that WCW was even in the market to start a CW division until they saw what happened in ECW? No. They had direct ties with NJPW for years and could've began importing all of the talent way back when the Super J Cup was in its infancy.

Point is, it was still pushed as such. Just because you dont think it was good enough, doenst mean there werent billed CWs in WCW BEFORE ECW. I guess ECW copied them, using your logic. Since they did it first and all....

They threw ZERO effort into making it a credible division, so of course it's gonna fail. They let Foley kickstart the damn thing and then after that it got as much thought as a future push for the Bushwackers. They threw guys in the division they didn't know what to do with elsewhere instead of trying to focus on bettering it. How do you expect a title and a division to get over when it's nothing more than a junkyard? And like you said, no one GOOD was even usually in the matches. Sure, they had some obligatorily good encounters when guys like RVD, Taz, and Angle were there, but those didn't last long. If they'd have sunk at least a portion of the effort into making that division (especially with all the talent they had from WCW and ECW) it could've been five times better than it was.

Oh yeah, Taker sure made the division look like shit. So did Matt Hardy and Raven. What about the supposed innovators of "good" hardcore wrestling...Al Snow, Rhyno, Spike Dudley, Steven Richards, and Tommy Dreamer?

Wait wait, let me guess "It was booked to look bad" it couldnt have anything to do with the fans just not caring to see the same hardcore BS over and over huh?

 

[rhcp22]

ECW died for other reasons. ECW died because Heyman chose not to change their programming and because of that they were never advertised and had a bad time slot. TNA differentiates from ECW because they have a solid prime time slot and are getting along with TNN now known as spike tv. ECW and TNA have gone two different roads. Don't compare them because there nothing alike.

ECW died because of financial and Heyman being arrogant. He choose not to stop the cursing and etc ECW had which made TNN not advertise them and not give them a prime time slot. Also ECW went bankrupt. TNA has money and are staying on Spike Tv's good side.

That is so stupid. "Spike TV" advertises themselves as a man's network that plays shows that cater to mens tastes. But they were too big of *****es to put ECW in a good time slot because of the cursing? Because of the extreme violence? Man what a bunch of *****es. Instead they decide to show a lower budget version of the WWE.

 

[Kasey]

So according to you, if in 4 at bats somoene gets 3 hits and a strike out, its consistant? Consisitant means you produce the same numbers TIME AFTER TIME. Week after week, month after month, year after year. Not just 3 times.

So when can they declare victory? Next month? Next year? When? The fact is that their ratings have risen and are staying above a 1 at present time.

Other websites.....like Fox News.com? CNN.com? Not that these guys dont fucking outright lie as well, but Id trust what I see there over anything that piece of shit Dave Meltzer says anyday.

And that's good for you. Trust who you like. For all the years of reporting I've frequented with regards to Meltzer and others, I've found him to be right more often than not. You may have not, but then again, you don't frequent the news sites, so a discussion over whether or not you know this stuff is moot.

There are also tons other than can be proven false.....

Probably, but you don't even frequent the news updates, right? There's an assload of updates on numerous sites that never make it onto messageboards at all, so using what is seen on the boards (as you stated you found them on before) is not that great of a joint to be looking in the first place. Hell, Jake just added a news thread in the TNA section maybe a month ago.
That can be said about any journalism. That's why newspapers come with correction columns. Like I said above, there is a factor of consistency.

But if you feel so strongly about it, with which the obvious ferver that you attacked Jake,you do, you should speak about it. Trust me, the first thread I find about Bret Hart and the "screwjob" I will let fucking lose about his winy pansy bitch ass.

Then let loose if it makes you feel better. I do on a frequent basis when someone says something regarding a specific wrestler's character. Hell, I love watching Dynamite Kid matches, but he was a grade-A prick by most accounts I've seen or read. I typically don't start the "let's shit on Bret" train because the subjects never come up with regards to his character. I've watched numerous shoot interviews from both sides regarding the screwjob as well as detailed written account of the weeks leading up to everything. My take? Shawn was likely clueless. Earl did his job and was smart to do so. Vince deserved the shot to the face that he got afterwards. We can discuss this one via PM's if you like, as it doesn't really pertain to the topic at hand, which for all intentions, we've strayed from significantly.

YOu cant survive on nothing but cheeseburgers. Sorry try again. I thought someone in your position would know that. As well they should also know that smoking doesnt automatically equal cancer. Just as eating a cheeseburger doesnt automatically equal a heart attack. And BTW, since when does one being less bad mean its good? I mean speed and ecstacy isnt as bad as crack, shall we suggest kids start doing those?

You can't eat smokes. Yes, someone in my position is designated to make the call as to which one of these will kill you faster if used as a method of sole survival. You need carbs, proteins, and fats to survive. You can't get all that from cigs. Why you're pushing this is beyond me. They both suck, but one much less than the other. Think I'm wrong with what I'm saying? Try to live a week eating or smoking packs of cigs versus a week on the cheeseburgers. Strictly by themselves, with no other food source...what are you gonna choose?

Because according to the smarks they were "booked" right in ECW and they could barely draw 1,000 people at their peak.

If the talent gets over with whatever audience is there, then the booking was successful. And see, this is where you bring up to me that "ECW idiots love anything you do," right? Well, if some of that talent wasn't good enough to do the job right, then obviously McMahon or Bischoff wouldn't have given a damn about them in the first place, and would be just like you and see right through the "ECW idiot pops." The fact is, they saw the response and the methods used to get it, and saw $$$.

More of that word, truth. It is the truth to some that Americans should die because we are godless infadels, so I guess thats a fact huh?

Is it just a coincidence that no one except the core ECW fans saw him and thus no one but them cared?

No. That's someone's OPINION. A correct descriptive would be something like: Some people think Americans should die because we are godless infidels. Then you're more along the lines of truth.

He had been used before, but with The Dynamic Dudes gimmick and then being a mullet-sporting grinning idiot with zero personality like both Vince and Watts had him doing in 1991 and 1992, would you expect those to get over? I wouldn't. But then again, you may think differently. His second run with WWF was more of the same as this time it was both Bill Watts AND Vince steering the ship. What a combination for success.

And you have proof of your positiveness of ECWs influence? Because all you have is coincidence that you are reading into it. Does Austin say he owes what he is to ECW? How about Vince? How about Austins friends or coworkers?

Proof? Look at what you watch on Monday and Thursday. A number of the athletes on those shows wouldn't be there if it weren't for ECW. Plus the fact that ECW itself was brought back. Hell, even WCW wasn't brought back and that company had kicked McMahon's ass for 80+ weeks in the Nielsen's, but you never heard fans chanting for them, did you? I mean, do you honestly think you'd see matches like the main event at Wrestlemania XX if it weren't for ECW? In terms of weapons used, and the fact that a three-way dance had never actually been done at a Wrestlemania for the title, before? Even though ECW did it on their FIRST PPV. And I've read into your opinion as much about how irrelevant ECW is, and I honestly buy that as much as you buy what I'm selling you. However, look at the ECW posterboy himself, RVD (mr. highspot, who I'm sure you adore), whipping ass all over the other ECW guys listed in a poll on the ECW front page no less. As for other influence? I look at what's spread across rosters from TNA and WWE for the last five years and you can see where a number of them came from and got their foot in the door with regards to getting seen in American wrestling.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Austin was seen as in injured write-off by the other companies. This is from WWE.com

"Soon after, Steve departed for a tour through Japan. While there, he suffered a knee injury and was written off by WCW. Head of WCW Eric Bischoff fired Steve over the phone. Injured and unemployed, Steve went home to rehabilitate his knee and drink plenty of beer.

While recuperating, he received an unexpected phone call from ECW owner Paul Heyman, his former WCW manager. Heyman offered Steve a forum to air his grievances about WCW. He gave Steve a microphone and told him run wild with it. What followed were a series of scathing commentary segments, including “Monday Nyquil” mocking WCW’s Monday Nitro television broadcast. When “Superstar” Steve Austin let his passion and personality out, he struck a chord and caught on with the fans like never before."

Even to me it sounds like ECW was the catalyst for his eventual turn to stardom...unless I'm reading into this statement on the WWE homepage incorrectly with regards to establishing the Stone Cold character.

You mean like Benoit, Malenko and the rest were in ECW? Midcard Skidmarks?

With title runs throughout their short tenure and a dedicated fanbase and all three being there less than a year? Cactus was a journeyman who was never over in any sort of fashion remotely that comes near what he accomplished in ECW and later in the WWF. Hell, he was in WCW for THREE years and had one title run in the tag division.

Oh so it was a 9 month face/heel switch? Despite the fact he was getting cheered starting around KOTR? You are so right, I know 9 month face turns are so common....

They aren't common when the guy is stuck against the top babyface in the company in a program that is geared around simultaneously turning each guy over to the other side ALL THE WAY. Austin was still fighting Hart for pops throughout the early part of 1997, until WM13, when Austin left the ring a bloody mess amidst the first "Austin" chants heard.

Oh yeah, because no one in the history of the world booked cruisers like Heyman...Japan? No. Mexico? No.

I never said anything about Heyman being before those countries and was only referring to the U.S. market. He was the first in AMERICA to book them that way, though.

The latter one will get a bigger response, but in either of them, had anyone else been there, it would have gotten over. If you saw anyone take a fall from HIAC, the crowd would errupt because it hadnt been seen. Same with the bulldog. Not that it had NEVER been seen, but the WWE holds that shit back so when it does happen, its not seen as common place. How many guys have gone diving off of cells since in the WWE?

None, because the offensive limitations that are in place, and the fact that Foley was the only one in the company's history who had enough balls to take the fall from that high up. Michael's tried it earlier, but he was already dangling off the edge.

I havent, please point them out.

There have been at least a handful or Raws I've watched where Carlito gets less-than-stellar pops and and Masters scoops heat. Not that I think Masters deserves the heat, because I feel that it's gimmie heat when he keeps talking about the full-nelson like it's some sort of new thing he invented. I'd go study tapes, but there is even a point my nerdy ass won't go to prove a point.

Oh yeah, Bret at 6ft 230 is such a colossus over Benoit at 5ft10 and 225. I was SO WRONG.

Ones is within easy striking distance for passing for a junior, the other isn't. That's my point. Bret actually weighed at a consistent 235. Almost fifteen pounds on average heavier than a junior. Benoit stuck around near cruiserweight-levels until only the last few years around the time he began to get his push.

I didnt know you were in the business of making up excuses. You said there were NO CHANGES in the ratings. It was consistant. Using your logic, if Raws ratings drops off .3 or so I can say "Well the moon was full, and some people might want to go look at it" there is ALWAYS an excuse. And did you see the next week? It didnt go back up to 1.1 did it?

Well, then let's monitor the Raw rating when it's pre-empted for the fucking dog show. Then come back and tell me that a pre-emption doesn't make a single bit of difference in regards to a show's score. No changes by the TNA rating jumping a tenth of a point, either way is pretty spot on in the last few months as they've obviously gotten and kept some new viewers. Raw has fluctuations of that matter all the time (tenths of a point), but you can't call their ratings inconsistent now, can you? I wouldn't.

There is a point where bleeding and taking bumps becomes just appeasing the bloodthirsty ****** fans, and ECW crossed that MANY times.

You could say this for ANY usage of blading, chairs, or tables. It's all the please the fans. Even the WWE marks get down on this shit. Denying that they enjoy this kind of violence in a manner on par with what the ECW fans liked is foolish.

Yeah, because you know all those small guys were all over the WWE at WM 20. Yeah Benoit got heavier when he got pushed. I thought you said he was a "small" guy? You said no one was smaller than Benoit, Thez was. Sorry try again.

Who were the two that walked away with the big belts? Two guys who got there leg up in the states due to a run in Heyman's backyard, one of which is my height, and who also had to put on weight to at least make the bare minimum with regards to getting a title push (especially Eddy). Benoit WAS a small guy. He didn't end up getting his run, though, until he maintained a consistently larger frame than his debut with WCW as a cruiserweight (when he was around 218. And Thesz was on top in a different time without anabolics and a boatload of yoked big guys running around.

Oh so before you were saying there were no shoot promos in wrestling before ECW and now, "Oh those all COULD be shoots" make up your fucking mind!

Hey, if you ask me, the definition of a shoot promo is one that breaks kayfabe. Roddy Piper shooting anti-black remarks isn't breaking anything. People still think it's a work, they just think that Piper is a bigger dick for saying it. Douglas, Pillman, and Austin completely disregarded kayfabe numerous times and SHOT on other companies. How often did that go down before then? Hell, a year later HHH got chastised for breaking kayfabe in the big leagues.

Point is, it was still pushed as such. Just because you dont think it was good enough, doenst mean there werent billed CWs in WCW BEFORE ECW. I guess ECW copied them, using your logic. Since they did it first and all....

They did a division that was nowhere near the style and layout AND depth of what ECW gave them a clue to do. Heyman used the juniors that Eric would end up taking, and then Eric just finished the example set and whipped out his checkbook to steal guys from other organizations. Paul showed him the blueprint and Eric just ran with it. Vince was even later than that and didn't get the lead out of his ass until a whole year later when he came in and swept the Michinoku Pro boys from under Paul's grasp.

Oh yeah, Taker sure made the division look like shit. So did Matt Hardy and Raven. What about the supposed innovators of "good" hardcore wrestling...Al Snow, Rhyno, Spike Dudley, Steven Richards, and Tommy Dreamer?

How much intelligence went into their angles? Did any of them have near the button-pushing edginess and clout that the ECW angles had already given them? Not a chance. What about the lengths of the matches? Hell, I'd be lucky if five or ten minutes was designated for one of these encounters, so I wouldn't expect it to be worth pissing on.

Wait wait, let me guess "It was booked to look bad" it couldnt have anything to do with the fans just not caring to see the same hardcore BS over and over huh?

Not booked to look bad, but just as filler with no afterthought. A five minute match with no time for a proper buildup featuring a number of athletes who were typically used as sacrificial lambs for the top guys doesn't spell success to me, and whenever a credible athlete was involved it was usually shortlived and in a non-competitive fashion with the other hardcore dwellers. And towards the end with the offensive and content restrictions put in place, I wouldn't have expected (and was right not to) any of the ECW signatures that were commonplace for them. I mean, how many flaming tables matches did you see?

 

[Kaedon]

So when can they declare victory? Next month? Next year? When? The fact is that their ratings have risen and are staying above a 1 at present time.

Except that one time....but theres always an excuse....

And that's good for you. Trust who you like. For all the years of reporting I've frequented with regards to Meltzer and others, I've found him to be right more often than not. You may have not, but then again, you don't frequent the news sites, so a discussion over whether or not you know this stuff is moot.

And for all the years I read what he says, and he's been posted on this forum and others, he's usually been vague when he is "right" and when he's wrong people just dismiss it, especially smarks.

Probably, but you don't even frequent the news updates, right? There's an assload of updates on numerous sites that never make it onto messageboards at all, so using what is seen on the boards (as you stated you found them on before) is not that great of a joint to be looking in the first place. Hell, Jake just added a news thread in the TNA section maybe a month ago.
That can be said about any journalism. That's why newspapers come with correction columns. Like I said above, there is a factor of consistency.

Consistancy, like 3 weeks up, 2 weeks down, and then one back where it was? Is that what consistancy is?

Then let loose if it makes you feel better. I do on a frequent basis when someone says something regarding a specific wrestler's character. Hell, I love watching Dynamite Kid matches, but he was a grade-A prick by most accounts I've seen or read. I typically don't start the "let's shit on Bret" train because the subjects never come up with regards to his character. I've watched numerous shoot interviews from both sides regarding the screwjob as well as detailed written account of the weeks leading up to everything. My take? Shawn was likely clueless. Earl did his job and was smart to do so. Vince deserved the shot to the face that he got afterwards. We can discuss this one via PM's if you like, as it doesn't really pertain to the topic at hand, which for all intentions, we've strayed from significantly.

This isnt the time or the place for it

You can't eat smokes. Yes, someone in my position is designated to make the call as to which one of these will kill you faster if used as a method of sole survival. You need carbs, proteins, and fats to survive. You can't get all that from cigs. Why you're pushing this is beyond me. They both suck, but one much less than the other. Think I'm wrong with what I'm saying? Try to live a week eating or smoking packs of cigs versus a week on the cheeseburgers. Strictly by themselves, with no other food source...what are you gonna choose?

But you just said they are both shit choices? So why is one better to push on the stupid satiated American public than the other? Because the FCC says so thats why...

If the talent gets over with whatever audience is there, then the booking was successful. And see, this is where you bring up to me that "ECW idiots love anything you do," right? Well, if some of that talent wasn't good enough to do the job right, then obviously McMahon or Bischoff wouldn't have given a damn about them in the first place, and would be just like you and see right through the "ECW idiot pops." The fact is, they saw the response and the methods used to get it, and saw $$$.

But you said how can you gauge if they would draw if booked right. I said when they were "booked right" according to smarks, they barely drew 1000 people. Thats not drawing well in comparison to the big leages....not at all.

No. That's someone's OPINION. A correct descriptive would be something like: Some people think Americans should die because we are godless infidels. Then you're more along the lines of truth.

But you think truth is fact apparently, therefore they are correct?

He had been used before, but with The Dynamic Dudes gimmick and then being a mullet-sporting grinning idiot with zero personality like both Vince and Watts had him doing in 1991 and 1992, would you expect those to get over? I wouldn't. But then again, you may think differently. His second run with WWF was more of the same as this time it was both Bill Watts AND Vince steering the ship. What a combination for success.

Yes, but somehow ECW made him a "major" star and where is he now??? Oh yeah. And I'm sure WWE are chomping at the bit to get his old and busted ass back.

Proof? Look at what you watch on Monday and Thursday. A number of the athletes on those shows wouldn't be there if it weren't for ECW. Plus the fact that ECW itself was brought back. Hell, even WCW wasn't brought back and that company had kicked McMahon's ass for 80+ weeks in the Nielsen's, but you never heard fans chanting for them, did you? I mean, do you honestly think you'd see matches like the main event at Wrestlemania XX if it weren't for ECW? In terms of weapons used, and the fact that a three-way dance had never actually been done at a Wrestlemania for the title, before? Even though ECW did it on their FIRST PPV. And I've read into your opinion as much about how irrelevant ECW is, and I honestly buy that as much as you buy what I'm selling you. However, look at the ECW posterboy himself, RVD (mr. highspot, who I'm sure you adore), whipping ass all over the other ECW guys listed in a poll on the ECW front page no less. As for other influence? I look at what's spread across rosters from TNA and WWE for the last five years and you can see where a number of them came from and got their foot in the door with regards to getting seen in American wrestling.

Wait they wouldnt be there without ECW why? Because you said so? Using your logic, NJPW is where almost everyone went BEFORE ECW. Therefore NO ONE WOULD BE WATCHING AMERICAN WRESTLING WITHOUT NJPW. Is that true? Oh fuck no.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Austin was seen as in injured write-off by the other companies. This is from WWE.com

"Soon after, Steve departed for a tour through Japan. While there, he suffered a knee injury and was written off by WCW. Head of WCW Eric Bischoff fired Steve over the phone. Injured and unemployed, Steve went home to rehabilitate his knee and drink plenty of beer.

While recuperating, he received an unexpected phone call from ECW owner Paul Heyman, his former WCW manager. Heyman offered Steve a forum to air his grievances about WCW. He gave Steve a microphone and told him run wild with it. What followed were a series of scathing commentary segments, including “Monday Nyquil” mocking WCW’s Monday Nitro television broadcast. When “Superstar” Steve Austin let his passion and personality out, he struck a chord and caught on with the fans like never before."

Even to me it sounds like ECW was the catalyst for his eventual turn to stardom...unless I'm reading into this statement on the WWE homepage incorrectly with regards to establishing the Stone Cold character.

Did Austin say this? How about JR? Maybe it was Vince?

With title runs throughout their short tenure and a dedicated fanbase and all three being there less than a year? Cactus was a journeyman who was never over in any sort of fashion remotely that comes near what he accomplished in ECW and later in the WWF. Hell, he was in WCW for THREE years and had one title run in the tag division.

and yet he was still there before ECW. Then ECW stole him....

They aren't common when the guy is stuck against the top babyface in the company in a program that is geared around simultaneously turning each guy over to the other side ALL THE WAY. Austin was still fighting Hart for pops throughout the early part of 1997, until WM13, when Austin left the ring a bloody mess amidst the first "Austin" chants heard.

So what was it? A colossal failure right? Since he didnt get the "correct" response?

I never said anything about Heyman being before those countries and was only referring to the U.S. market. He was the first in AMERICA to book them that way, though.

Oh so who did WCW copy? The fed that no one say or the feds that 10s of THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SAW. But hey, it was in America first with no one watching.....

None, because the offensive limitations that are in place, and the fact that Foley was the only one in the company's history who had enough balls to take the fall from that high up. Michael's tried it earlier, but he was already dangling off the edge.

None because if they keep OVER DOING IT LIKE ECW DID, it would be seen as common place...

There have been at least a handful or Raws I've watched where Carlito gets less-than-stellar pops and and Masters scoops heat. Not that I think Masters deserves the heat, because I feel that it's gimmie heat when he keeps talking about the full-nelson like it's some sort of new thing he invented. I'd go study tapes, but there is even a point my nerdy ass won't go to prove a point.

And there have been MANY MORE where Carlito got way more heat. Id bet 99% because I am a Masters fan and I pay attention to that kinda thing.

Ones is within easy striking distance for passing for a junior, the other isn't. That's my point. Bret actually weighed at a consistent 235.

In the WWE a CW is 230. In Japan he was booked as a Junior....

Almost fifteen pounds on average heavier than a junior. Benoit stuck around near cruiserweight-levels until only the last few years around the time he began to get his push.

He was aorund Brets MASSIVE BULK weight when he got his push. I mean man, Benoit is a Monster. Forget about JBL, Taker, Kane, Snitsky, Tomko, Heidenreich, Matt Morgan, Triple H, and the rest. Benoit dwarfs them all....

Well, then let's monitor the Raw rating when it's pre-empted for the fucking dog show. Then come back and tell me that a pre-emption doesn't make a single bit of difference in regards to a show's score. No changes by the TNA rating jumping a tenth of a point, either way is pretty spot on in the last few months as they've obviously gotten and kept some new viewers. Raw has fluctuations of that matter all the time (tenths of a point), but you can't call their ratings inconsistent now, can you? I wouldn't.

Yes I can. They are very inconsistant. But they are consistantly higher than TNA's arent they

You could say this for ANY usage of blading, chairs, or tables. It's all the please the fans. Even the WWE marks get down on this shit. Denying that they enjoy this kind of violence in a manner on par with what the ECW fans liked is foolish.

The hardcore FAD of the WWE says different. It says that fans dont like the same hardcore BS over and over ad nausum.

Who were the two that walked away with the big belts? Two guys who got there leg up in the states due to a run in Heyman's backyard, one of which is my height, and who also had to put on weight to at least make the bare minimum with regards to getting a title push (especially Eddy). Benoit WAS a small guy. He didn't end up getting his run, though, until he maintained a consistently larger frame than his debut with WCW as a cruiserweight (when he was around 218. And Thesz was on top in a different time without anabolics and a boatload of yoked big guys running around.

and yet he was smaller than Benoit when he got the title and you said such a person never existed...

Hey, if you ask me, the definition of a shoot promo is one that breaks kayfabe. Roddy Piper shooting anti-black remarks isn't breaking anything. People still think it's a work, they just think that Piper is a bigger dick for saying it. Douglas, Pillman, and Austin completely disregarded kayfabe numerous times and SHOT on other companies. How often did that go down before then? Hell, a year later HHH got chastised for breaking kayfabe in the big leagues.

Oh so now its YOUR definition of a shoot promo. Convenient when that comes up after youve been so obviously proven wrong.

They did a division that was nowhere near the style and layout AND depth of what ECW gave them a clue to do. Heyman used the juniors that Eric would end up taking, and then Eric just finished the example set and whipped out his checkbook to steal guys from other organizations. Paul showed him the blueprint and Eric just ran with it. Vince was even later than that and didn't get the lead out of his ass until a whole year later when he came in and swept the Michinoku Pro boys from under Paul's grasp.

BUt they were the first in the states to do it. ANd since doing it first in the states means all that much to you....

How much intelligence went into their angles? Did any of them have near the button-pushing edginess and clout that the ECW angles had already given them? Not a chance. What about the lengths of the matches? Hell, I'd be lucky if five or ten minutes was designated for one of these encounters, so I wouldn't expect it to be worth pissing on.

Oh so now its not about there not being enough big names, its about not enough development of angles....

Not booked to look bad, but just as filler with no afterthought. A five minute match with no time for a proper buildup featuring a number of athletes who were typically used as sacrificial lambs for the top guys doesn't spell success to me, and whenever a credible athlete was involved it was usually shortlived and in a non-competitive fashion with the other hardcore dwellers. And towards the end with the offensive and content restrictions put in place, I wouldn't have expected (and was right not to) any of the ECW signatures that were commonplace for them. I mean, how many flaming tables matches did you see?

And why should the WWE give buildup to some ECW pieces of garbage who could barely draw 1,000 people? Because they drew 1000 people? GREAT IDEA!! LETS GIVE SPIKE DUDLEY THE WWE TITLE!! I mean he was in ECW and therefore he should draw well...

 

[lapel8533]

It's obvious only a small amount of people liked ecw. Most people have an intellect too high to watch something so primitive in nature as that disgusting little dirty mal-nourished low life fecal matter.
The numbers speak for themselves.

Oh yeah, I must say "again" I am backed up with tons of college homework so most likely I will not be responding to any of your(everybody) weak rebuttals.
And the only reason I did not finish any of my debates from a few months ago was because I have been without a computer. And believe me that’s the "only" reason why. So don't think you "got me" if you attempt to refute mwah.

 

[Downward Spiral]

It's obvious only a small amount of people liked ecw. Most people have an intellect too high to watch something so primitive in nature as that disgusting little dirty mal-nourished low life fecal matter.
The numbers speak for themselves.

Oh yeah, I must say "again" I am backed up with tons of college homework so most likely I will not be responding to any of your(everybody) weak rebuttals.
And the only reason I did not finish my any of my debates from a few months ago was because I have been without a computer. And believe me that’s the "only" reason why. So don't think you "got me" if you attempt to refute mwah.

I hardly think that Kasey's or any other ECW fanatics responses to people who try to dig up arguments against ECW with no real thoughts, are weak. If anything, they are just responding to what I perceive to be weak arguments from people who struggle to back them up. If you want to earn their respect, make the arguments good ones. Don't tell people that you don't want to hear their responses or don't want to reply to them, because that is just a way to back out of an argument and just entice them to reply to you.

The only reason many fans didn't watch ECW was because it wasn't brought to the mainstream wrestling fans attention because they weren't used to seeing that against the WWE programming. This was something else. ECW was innovative, and don't say Japan did things way before them, because ECW did it with courage and brought it to the American audience against giant companies who could crush them with their money and fans anytime. My perception of ECW used to be that it was a bunch of fat men brutalising eachother with weapons but that was far from reality. They showed wrestling from wrestlers that put their bodies on the line for the sake of the business. They weren't there for money. They were there to show off their skill to an audience that respects that dedication. Yes it had a lot of high spots that were considered stupid, but that is only ankle deep in regards to what that company was really about.

Did Paul Heyman ever once conform to the standard of wrestling that was popular in the 90's with the WWF? No. He just kept on trucking for the sake of putting on a show that was different and was something special. The numbers were few but proud. They didn't care if their company wasn't as popular as the giants. All they cared about was the wrestlers that dedicated their life to ripping apart their bodies for the sake of those fans, and did they what.

ECW changed the face of the wrestling industry for the better. You cannot seriously tell ANYONE that they didn't have an influence in the creation of the Attitude Era. The WWF saw their popularity rising, or they saw how much they could market that product to an audience, and they duplicated that and made that sort of wrestling popular. If your only argument against ECW is the fact that their numbers weren't matching the WWF and WCW crowds, that shows you really have no idea about the company and what it was. I thought the same mentality until I watched videos of the ECW matches WAY before the WWE ever showed that sort of stuff. That showed me that they were a company that had no fear, as much as their wrestlers did, and that is commitment to showing their product week in and week out, that is now being successfully put into TNA today.

Yeah they weren't the most popular, but they were a company that showed something that wrestling fans never saw before in America. The spots were as good as the wrestlers and the matches. Don't ever claim that just because the crowds were little that they were a bad company because frankly the fans, the company and the wrestlers couldn't care less about that, and were passionate about their little company that could (thanks Kasey for that one.)

Watch the wrestling they produced. Just once. Don't make stereotypical views of a lower company, because they to me showed wrestling that the other American products never could show. It was more than insane high spots, and if they cared about fan numbers and money, they would have folded well before they were ruined by TNN. Maybe the fans didn't like it because those weren't fans of pure wrestling, and in America at the time, there weren't too many of them. But just look at the legacy that they have built. Forget about this watered down version of it today, because that is far from what it was like. With little money, they damn sure put on one hell of a show, and the true fans of wrestling will tell you that same thing. They were different and courageous, and nothing can deny that. Especially not shallow, ignorant, half thought up arguments such as crowd numbers.

Reply or not, I don't care. Next time think of some better arguments or be prepared to be blasted by people who have 10 times more knowledge of the business than I do. I think there are many other reasons that people will think that they have 'Got' you as well.

 

[X]

Bravo Downward Spiral! All I have to say to any claims against ECW's quality is watch one of the Mike Awesome vs. Masato Tanaka matches and tell me it doesn't entertain you every second. Or Sabu vs. Taz. For that matter, just get one of their old PPV's off Ebay and try to tell me it doesn't hold you in your seat the entire show.

 

[Downward Spiral]

I am not the only one who took a stand against people who had no idea what they were doing. Go look back at what Kasey wrote and you will see that one of the most intelligent wrestling fan on here knows what he is talking about in regards to ECW.

 

[Abyss]

IMO, you need to listen to people who know what they are talking about, Downward Spiral and Kasey to name just 2.

 

[Kasey]

^I do appreciate the sentiments, guys, but somewhere in the long lines of useless banter my actual point was sidetracked somewhere amidst a haze of smartass remarks and other little goodies I exchanged with the Kenster. While I find a lot of stuff that other people think is entertaining to be complete rubbish, they still get a kick out of it. Even if I'm polar opposite with Kaedon in our views of ECW or TNA or whatever, he states his points well (even if I still disagree AND I DO), and I definitely can't fault the guy for liking what he likes. Even with all the pretty much wasted pages of debate we had, I still don't think I changed his mind anymore than he changed mine.

As for the true topic of the thread, I still find TNA to be more entertaining on average than WWE product as a whole. I purchased the latest PPV from TNA and was definitely not disappointed (except with Christy Hemme and the Miss Brooks segments, which were pretty dumb to say the least). However, even in the shortened wrestling segments of Impact, I'm much more entertained than I am sitting through hours of WWE programming each week. I found this last episode to be no exception whatsoever.

 

[Downward Spiral]

I think he can get his point across, but his views are very controversial and I don't think many take him seriously for them. He can give good discussion though, and that is something that this board needs. He sticks to his views though and that is cool with me, except he can be just an ass sometimes from what I have read.

What shocked me was that not only did they put Christy Hemme in a match, that they did it at a PPV, AND they did it against the Greased up Naked guy or whatever they call him. This is just that stupid entertainment that they need to get rid of. The fans were loyal enough to respect the wrestling they show and they damn sure don't want to see the PPV's ruined by crap like this, which was probably worse than the original Big Dick Johnson. They don't need to lower themselves to that level and showed no reason to.

The women's division could be a big failure though, and I don't think Hemme should be wrestling in TNA at all, especially not in stupid matches with gimmicks the fans despise despite Russo aiming for entertainment. They forgot that they becamse successful because they listened to what the fans wanted, and Hemme and that duplicate character are not fan wishes, at least not TNA fans anyhow. Do they really want WWE fans polluting their fanbase. I just watched the Little Boogeyman as I typed this so I guess all is forgiven for TNA producing crap. But seriously, they don't need to do this womens division or matches like they had to get entertainment, and that will only make them lose fans.

 

[duke2189]

I used to be a massive WWE fan but having watched TNA for the last month i realise that it offers much more. Heels actualy get over in tNA unlike WWE, the wrestling is more intense and ther s more of it, insted of stupid segments like in wwe. TNA is class all you wwe fans are the one that need you heads examining, "oh yey John Cena, wow look hes cool because he is always nice to the fans and wins every match. Your wrestlings really shit, but we'll cheer for you and say your good in the ring because we buy Vince's marketing hook line and sinker..."

 

[JUSTINIGHTMARE]

LMAO couldn't say it better duke2189 I didn't know you were a TNA fan but yes many of the noobs here were pissed at me when I kept telling them Deep pennetration x is dead they kept yelling at me that they are not when they are! As you can see we have a John F*gboy Cena who everyone dislikes so what will happen J.C will turn heel and so will Undertaker but like you said its true Wimpy Wrestling ENtertainment has gone worse hell not Big Show is t here anymore not even Hogan is so guess where these 2 are heading !!! TNA baby!! Cena is a mix of SCSA and Hogan! good for the women and kids in America while here in Canada he is often booed when Edge won we cheered like no tomorrow but another thing Edge vs Orton is subject to change as it may not happen in WM23 which is better they can focus going after Cena and Michaels in the next ppv before WM23 whats the point ofgiving them titles when Cena has the Heavyweight give it back to them and have Cyme Tyme go after them at WM23 and they win over the Boyz in da Hood gangstas and the way they sterreotype blacks is awful !!
I d like to See Bischoff pull a shocker and jump to TNA and thats when everything goes super!!

 

[Uncle Sam]

I'd rather have a rabid beaver in TNA than Hogan and Show. John Cena has good charisma and is a solid wrestler but doesn't really do anything very original. I think the WWE were trying to create a new (and hip-hop friendly) Austin with him.

Kevin Nash's little segments are hilarious by the way.

 

[duke2189]

Cena is a goofy little bastard. Or at least thats how he comes accross to any1 with half a brain. Id rather have CC as my champion any day.

 

[Capt. Charisma]

The major problem with WWE is that heels just are no longer pushed anymore, Vince no that the competition is v. limited sees WWE as merely a money making machine. The wrestling in TNA is more unpredictable, and like its been said more intensein every sense of the word. I disagree with you saying Cena has good charisma, its the same old shit every time on the mic (the same could also be said about his wrestling matches). Christian Cage is the best person in the entire industry on the mic, and im not been biased because i watch both shows. He could blow Cena out of the water if he got the chance, the only person off the top of my head who was a better smack talker was The rock. What the WWE is doing with guys like Cena is brainwashing the young fans, by having them act like super faces, which means they kiss the fans arse every single night, and they rarely lose. How is this enteraining its the same boring stuff every night. I can seriously see TNA in a year or so if they get a 2 hour time slot drawing rating in the late 2's and even 3's. This would be v. competitive with the WWE but we will have to see.

 

[Ogerz]

TNA will NEVER get to the level of the WWE using their has beens! Come on, Was it Angle that got them in the spotlight? How about Christian? Rhyno? Hall? Nash? Team 3-D? NONE of the above. It was TNA stars like AJ Styles, Abyss, Christopher Daniels, Robert Roode, AMW, & others! So why in the hell would TNA think that doing the EXACT SAME THING AS WCW will work for them? Do they want to end up in the same fate as WCW? Like others, I am a FAN of WRESTLING and not just one promotion. I love the competition! Makes for better TV. But I feel like I am watching the Monday night wars again! TNA has made the biggest mistake by not taking advantage of getting a Monday Night time slot and not putting on a current show! BEST OF? Half them guys in that show aren't there anymore! They say they can't handle a live broadcast. Why not tape a show a couple of hours ahead of time and do the editing as they go? Then the last thing I got to say about TNA is, Your show is going in 20 directions at one time! They are cramming too much into one broadcast! They really need a 2 hour timeslot. Overall, TNA is got a great lineup of TNA stars. Not WWE hasbeens.

 

[TNA_Fan201]

TNA needs to get people from ROH and THose japanese or mexican federations plus a couple of WWE guys.
That plus a lil bit of changes and time will make TNA a threat to Vinces pockets

 

[Unrated Superstar]

Hogan would have a bloated contract with creative control ala WCW. McMahon's sandbox is the only place Hogan can go where he can't do everything he wants, mainly because Vince rules with an iron fist.

So Hogan can't do everything he wants in WWE? As long as he's working there, I beg to differ, at least lately. He wanted to beat Shawn Michaels, he beat Shawn Michaels. He wanted to beat Randy Orton, he beat Randy Orton. I'm just so glad he's not gonna be at Wrestlemania this year. I know a lot of people like to put down the Great Khali's ability, but I find him somewhat entertaining, and I certainly would have hated to see him have to job to Hogan. Imagine Hogan scoop slamming Khali and following up with the leg drop for the 1-2-3. Boy, wouldn't that just be the cutest piece of nostalgia. (gags)

As for the subject at hand, I think it's just a shame that TNA has to make such a big deal out of these guys from WWE as opposed to their regular talent. Kurt Angle as number one on their greatest moments, tying with the debut of Impact on Spike? He's not THAT special.

I like RVD, and I think he'd be good in TNA. Sandman...ugh. Sabu...eh. Benoit...if they keep up this crap with him in WWE as the US champ, he might as well go to TNA. But I don't really have all the answers.

 

[Kasey]

So Hogan can't do everything he wants in WWE? As long as he's working there, I beg to differ, at least lately. He wanted to beat Shawn Michaels, he beat Shawn Michaels. He wanted to beat Randy Orton, he beat Randy Orton. I'm just so glad he's not gonna be at Wrestlemania this year. I know a lot of people like to put down the Great Khali's ability, but I find him somewhat entertaining, and I certainly would have hated to see him have to job to Hogan. Imagine Hogan scoop slamming Khali and following up with the leg drop for the 1-2-3. Boy, wouldn't that just be the cutest piece of nostalgia. (gags)

Vince finally got wise to the fact that Hogan's old ass isn't worth the gargantuan paydays he still thinks he's worth (hence Hogan not appearing at WM this year. The buyrates reflected that (as did the general concensus regarding the matches Hogan had during his last two trips to a WWE PPV). Orton likely jobbed because he was being punished (just like with Wrestlemania that year and his loss to Rey) for backstage actions revolving around his unfavorable treatment of women backstage. As for Michaels, though? Your guess is as good as mine with that one. I do remember that Vince had Hogan do the mother of all jobs to Brock Lesnar years back, though, where Hogan was undeniably squashed in a fashion never before seen, so I still do think that what Vince really wants...is what goes. Plus Hogan's last run in the company was less than honorable as they definitely touted him as the old underdog.

My hope is that Dixie and Jeff aren't stupid enough to think Hogan can help them with anything whatsoever. Hogan would have immense creative control if TNA was dumb enough to sign him because they are definitely in a WCW-type situation where they'd likely give him the key to the city being the newer, unestablished promotion looking for names. With that kind of power he single-handedly killed pushes for Luger and Sting within a year's time that WCW spent considerable portions of time and money building, by yanking back the world strap right away each time and NEVER keeping his nose out of the title hunt when they had a roster FULL of amazing talent.

 

[PhillyNeNe]

Totally agree with Ogerz. I am a wrestling fan. If it has to do with pro wrestling, I am watching it. However, when it comes down to it, TNA is using WWE wrestlers to get ratings. They aren't using all the guys who put this company on the map. They are using guys like Angle, Dudleys and Kip/BG to get ratings. It doesn't work. I am already tired of TNA. I liked TNA when first began and they used Samoa Joe and AJ Styles and Chris Daniels to promote their promotion. Now, I see the old WWE storylines on TNA. Alot of the storylines that are going on right now are storylines that have already been used. Personally, I am getting tired of all the TNA wrestlers blaming Triple H and Shawn Michaels for their problems or using their names to get a reactions from the crowd. Their crowd is a joke as well. They are literally being told what to say. What real wrestling fan starts a chant that says " This is Awesome " Would you say some lame shit like that? I don't think so. They are just corny. I used to like them alot and I thought that they could compete with WWE but now I see them as the WWE B Show because every person who has a major title over there except for the X Division title is a former WCW/WWE/ECW superstar. Most of the people who are wrestling in the ppv this week are former superstars. I feel that TNA doesn't really believe that their talent is good enough if that superstar isn't a former superstar from the WWE. Even though they are better than the superstars they are using. I am tired of Angle always cursing, been tired of Scott Steiner's old ass, tired of Rhyno, so over Team 3D and Kip and BG need to go back to the drug house they came from. I was laughing my ass off when I saw Christy Hemme talk about being fired because she didn't do what she was asked. Of course she did what she was asked. She did playboy, she proved that not only is she a waste of time, that the diva search is the worst thing that has ever happened to wrestling. I just feel that they are just trying to get Vince to mention them on his show but Vince isn't that stupid. When TNA first came out, TNA had a purpose. They were the alternative and I felt that they were wrestling. Now, all they are trying to do is dwell on the past, try to get under Vince's skin by sending messages through their storylines and do the same old shit the WWE already have done.

 

[TNA_Fan201]

TNA has potential to be better then WWE, it doent matter if they use the same storylines or superstars, it matters how you use them

 

[Y 2 Jake]

If for example TNA were to go out of buisness, who do you think WWE would be intrested in? Obviously they would probably have Christian back, he left on good term's. They would probably have Angle back (eventually), and maybe Tomko as he asked for a release and wasnt released by WWE themselve's. WWE would take Sting but I doubt Sting would go there. Also WWE have expressed intrest in Joe and Styles in the past.

DONT JUST LIST GIVE REASON'S.​

Abyss: I think it's obvious they would take Abyss. He would instantly be put into a feud with The Undertaker or Kane. I also think he would be far more successful than Kane. And have a lot more memorable match's than either.

Hernandez: With his look and size WWE would love him. I'm still not sure if he's any good. If you stuck me in match's with Styles & Daniels, with Homicide as my partnes I would look compitent.

AMW: I think WWE would put Storm & Harris back together and they would go on to have multiple tag title reign's. I also think Harris would succede in the WWE main event scene.

Alex Shelly: Out of all the other X-Division star's Shelly is the only one I could see in WWE. He's not as much of a high flyer as the rest of the X-Division and other than Austin Starr he's one of the only one's with charisma.

 

[Ogerz]

Thats the problem 201, their not using them the way I know hundreds of fans would like to see them used! Every WWE star that leaves and come over get title shots like I change underwear. I am SHOCKED Angle hasn't gotten the strap yet. If the Big Show does come to TNA, he will have it in weeks. I would be using the WWE guys as boosters to their AWESOME roster! I want TNA to suceed as bad as you, but doing these stupid story lines won't get them there. You said "TNA has potential to be better then WWE", and they DO! BUT! Not this way. The whole VKM angle was a JOKE as it did nothing to provoke VKM...lol Not one Mention about it, nothing, NADA, ziltch, CRICKETS! I can't believe I actually got a warning about my posts saying I was bashing TNA. My post about hiring WWE garbage. I am more than SHOCKED that the moderators in this forum would even consider me as ANTI-TNA! I love TNA and love their shows, When its a story line that doesn't involve an underserving WWE superstar getting undeserving title shot just because of their names. Its called constructive criticism. I thought this was a forum for our opinions and this was the place for it. Since the Mod that sent me the warning will not allow me to respond to this in PM, I take it to the public as it should be a public issue. I love the site, love the forum thats why I recently joined it, but what they consider bashing is confusing. I could see it if I said TNA was WWE Garbage. But thats not what was said. I simply answered a question in the forums. Where's the crime?

 

[nick_bulletproof]

i totally agree but i think WWe would love to have styles and daniels to feud with CM punk or edge and orton