The *Official* John Cena Thread

[Rusty]

As the heel, it was Edge’s role to steal the title and snake his way back to the top. I went over this in story telling craft. Edge will drop the title to the next, hottest baby face contender.

Yes, but Cena didn't steal the title because he won it in a babyface type way. Yet you still have a problem with it.

Cena is the total package and you are right; he’s the face of the WWE, but at least in my opinion, his character IS bland. I’m not twelve, so the promos he cuts don’t appeal to me. I’ve always been into the anti-hero/villainous type characters, which is why I enjoy Jericho and Orton but detest Cena’s character. Not the man, I’ve already said I respect the man, but he’s a product of a creative team that is trying to adhere to a younger audience. I much preferred him as a baby face on SmackDown he was cutting edgy promos, and embarrassed his adversaries with clever free styling; whether it was scripted or not was beyond the point, he delivered it with swagger. Now all he does is kiss the fan’s asses for ten minutes than brawl with the generic heel. Nobody but kids like ass kissers and it’s a matter of maturity. I don’t go to shows to listen to the baby face tell me he loves me and is going to war for me. I go to shows to watch the baby face establish a want, need and obstacle that clashes with the heel’s ideals and clash with him for a showdown between good and evil. Again, basic story telling craft.

Hmm, I'm 17 and I love his promos. I guess that defies your twelve year old logic. You sound like a typical smark who only appreciates the heels, but not the faces. I'm not saying you have to like his character, but don't diss something that has become a huge success. I liked him when he was the rapper too, but it wasn't that gimmick that got him to where he is now, it is the current gimmick that took him to the top of the business. Once again, he has to kiss the fans asses, because he's a babyface. His role IS to get cheered. How many times do I have to say it? And John Cena had a perfect need to kick Jericho's ass, he called Cena a coward and dissed the fans that Cena loves. What else do you expect from the first week of a new feud?

What do you want me to do? Link you to different Cena promos on youtube? Everyone but you expected Cena to win the title in his HOMETOWN on his BIG RETURN night. People were hoping against it but most of us who know how the WWE creative team operates knew it was going to happen. You said it yourself; Cena is the face of the WWE and he makes the most money. How could you not have known he was going to win the title? And Cena being more ‘aggressive’ is a piss poor explanation to try and imply he’s different now than four months ago. He always had an aggressive streak; just watch his match with JBL at Judgment Day 2005, or his match with HHH at Wrestlemania 22. If he didn’t have “aggression”, how could he have retained the belt against top tier contenders? This is just WWE putting a bow on Cena and trying to pass off slight difference as a complete revamp but no matter how much you try to dress up a lump of shit, it’s still a lump of shit. Even if it burns a little more on the way out if you have too much jalapenos.

No, I just want you to give examples on how Cena is boring. You have yet to prove that. And hardly anyone expected Cena to win the match cleanly and win the title at Survivor Series, you're just talking out of your ass now. Jericho only won the title 3 weeks ago, so I like many others, was expecting him to retain here. Do you expect John Cena to have a totally different gimmick every time he returns to the ring? Edge has had the same gimmick for ages, yet you don't seem to have a problem with that. "Because he's a heel".

What I was saying is that Cena was aggressive at the very start of the new feud, which rarely ever happens. He defeated JBL and Triple H with determination, not aggression. Do you even know the definition of aggression? So the WWE manages to get a shitload of fans to cheer him in his Raw return, yet you think it's a pile of shit, despite many others completely disagreeing with you. As long as Cena get's the biggest reaction on the night, who the hell cares what gimmick he has anyway?

I don’t have to be middle-aged to pick up DVD’s or even subscribe to WWE 24/7. Show me one video during any of Hulk Hogan’s baby face runs (not WCW) when the masses were chanting “FUCK YOU HOGAN, YOU CAN’T WRESTLE.” You won’t find it. WCW doesn’t count because by then Hogan was way past his prime and if the fans turned on him, it was because he was old. Cena is still in his prime, still was prior to injury and the fans had already turned on him. I know fans have turned on The Rock even as recent as after 2000 when he was still on his prime and at the top of his game but that was due to the sting of knowing he was leaving for Hollywood and saw it as him turning his back on the fans and the WWE. Fans can be fickle but I think they got over it and even welcomed him back with open arms when he returned for Wrestlemania 20. I’ve NEVER heard masses chant such demeaning things at a baby face champion the way crowds have for Cena, though.

Wow, so you can just automatically determine whether Cena is the most booed face world champion or not, without seeing every single WWE Champion in the history of professional wrestling. The only time the fans said "Fuck You Cena" was at One Night Stand in 2006 from memory, in front of crazy old school ECW fans. Cena was wrestling their hero, Rob Van Dam. If Edge or Orton was in Cena's position, the exact same thing would have happened. Who cares if the fans turned on him anyway? They still watched the show whenever he was on the screen, and that's all the WWE wants you to do. You're living in 2006 where Cena was hated. Two years later and he's receiving more cheers than what he has over the past 3 years. Once again, only that horrible ECW crowd was demeaning Cena. The WWE crowds used to boo him, but not devalue him.

So when he kicks somebody’s ass determines whether or not he is aggressive? That’s an interesting way to look at it. And Cena has always been fired up. It’s how he gets the crowd riled up, he always had that ability. Edge and Jericho are anything but Superman; they snake their way to the top and steal titles. Batista is another character I hate by the way.

Well, an aggressive person wouldn't just stand there and stare blankly when being dissed, would they? So I think I have a good point here. So Cena has always been hitting everyone with steel steps, has he? He gets the crowds pumped by his determination and just his mere presence. Lol see what I mean here, "Edge and Jericho are anything but supermans" because they are heels therefore they are allowed to win as many titles as they want without becoming boring. Do I need to remind you that Edge has been shoved down our throats with 6 World Title reigns in two fricken years! Not to mention the astounding amount of air time he got on Smackdown before injury. He made the product repetitive this year. Thank God for the draft.

Cena hasn't been booked strongly all year apart from the Royal Rumble and at the present moment. Oh, and I guess you hate Batista too because he's a babyface? That's a pretty lame reason to hate a babyface. At least respect Cena and Batista for what they do. They manage to get a shitload of fans behind them, having one or two people like you boo and disrespect them shouldn't worry them at all. How do you think Edge and Jericho get over as heels? By beating the shit out of the fan favourites such as these two.

I’ve had a problem with Shawn Michaels’ character for years as well, only because he’s forty years old, a self-proclaimed born again Christian and his theme song is still “I’m just a sexy boy".

Oh and I guess you dislike Shawn Michaels character because he's a babyface too. He receives an enormous amount of cheers every week, so obviously your opinion means nothing to his thousands of supporters that cheer for him in basically every arena he visits. Heels and faces should be respectfully treated equally, you obviously need to learn that.

 

[RBH]

The last year they have written John Cena's character really well. They have given him some high profile matches to build to his resume that does not necissarily consist of championship matches. That is all he neeed to prove himself again. Feuds with JBL and Batista in their own right were very well written and evenly balanced. Plus John cena got to work with Mickie James and also with Randy Orton on a small scale basis. He is ready to take back the WWE and show us he can be the true champ he always was meant to be.

 

[JackAttack]

I don't want to de-rail the debate between Rusty and Smarky(jk), but I just have to throw this question out there.

How the hell do people get it in their thick skulls that Cena does nothing but the same 3 or 4 moves over and over again? Especially odd seeing as how other smarks will say its only five. Well here is my answer, ITS BECAUSE HE DOES MORE THAN FIVE MOVES. You people are thinking of "signature moves," which is a whole different matter.

Honestly, bashing Cena for doing his signature moves is just dumb.Taker has the "Old School," and snake eyes, HBK always does the elbow and atomic drops, and Batista has the spear and spinebuster. Many of the best wrestlers of all time only did signature moves. Austin always did his press at the beggining of the match, yet I never saw people complaining about that. I guess it was because his gimmick was "cool" though.

Oh, and for the record, Cena does more than five moves. I've seen him do side slams, body slams, vertical suplexes, bulldogs, back breakers, and many more.

An example of this is Wrestlemania 24. He started out with a bulldog(1), then did a verticle suplex(2). He later did the front-flip bulldog(3), and then a top rope leg drop(4). He then did a five-nuckle shuffle(5), and later an STFU(6).

Well what do ya know, six moves! Its a good thing he didn't do the FU, or else it would have been seven!

 

[Kyphael]

Well, I'm never one to complain about movesets, since I know each wrestler has a certain arsenal that he/she will always follow but since you brought it up... the reason why I think some people mock Cena for being a five move wonder is because his trademark moves are simplistic maneuvers that he exaggerates, so it looks like all flash and no substance. You know, steak and no sizzle. I mean, his finisher move is a fireman's carry. I know Hogan and Rock both had ridiculously flashy finishers (Leg Drop and Elbow Drop) but Hogan and Rock were on a level Cena is not, and I doubt will ever be. Cena is the biggest draw right now only because there's no competition but there is a level clearly above him.

Once again, he has to kiss the fans asses, because he's a babyface. His role IS to get cheered.

Really? Jeff Hardy is a baby face. I don't hear him sucking up to the fans in promos and the guy has been ridiculously over for years. Same for Shawn Michaels, and Undertaker, and Triple H, and R-Truth (guy is getting over, face it) and CM Punk, and Kofi Kingston, etc. These are all guys who are straight to the point in their promos. They don't ramble on needlessly for ten minutes. Ok, maybe HHH does but he has more backstage stroke than anyone else. What i'm saying is, with all the charisma Cena oozes, it would be better funneled into better promos.

What I was saying is that Cena was aggressive at the very start of the new feud, which rarely ever happens. He defeated JBL and Triple H with determination, not aggression. Do you even know the definition of aggression?

You're a huge Cena mark and you've forgotten the first two words he ever said in the WWE? "RUUUUTHLESS AGGGRESSION!" Then he clotheslined the shit out of Kurt Angle and took him to the limit. And that was a rookie Cena face to face with a veteran and multiple time WWE Champion on his FIRST NIGHT and match in the WWE. So what? After that, did his balls drop off and he just found them this past Monday night? Cena's always been aggressive, this new "aggressive" Cena is bull. He hasn't changed a bit.

"Fuck You Cena" was at One Night Stand in 2006 from memory, in front of crazy old school ECW fans.

Wrestlemania 22? Allstate Arena, Chicago Illinois. Pick up the DVD (if they haven't edited it out like the Mick Lick.) I was there. They also changed "YOU CAN'T WRESTLE" which no other babyface champion, to my memory, has heard.

Heels and faces should be respectfully treated equally, you obviously need to learn that.

And you need to learn story craft. In your mind, Cena's character is perfect. Sure, he's drawing money but he can be even better. Maybe Cena could some day be like the next Hogan or Rock, but not as this boring Cena that caters to children. Why? The fanbase that made the WWF a piss pan load of money in the 90's aren't into heroes. The baby boomers generation isn't into pro wrestling anymore but generation X is (no, not the stable, the actual Gen X) and Gen X is into anti-heroes. At this pace, I wouldn't be surprised if Randy Orton, years from now, surpassed Cena as the face of the WWE and biggest draw because his character will draw older fans, if continued to be written well. Unfortunately, consistency isn't one of the WWE creative team's strong points, so they're likely to try and change Orton face sooner or later and have it backfire in their faces but don't worry. Cena will go back to receiving mixed reactions and demeaning chants as well pretty soon, and I'll be here to say "I told you so."

You obviously hate change, if even for the better. You're perfectly happy with mediocre, so enjoy your Cena reign, for as long as it is positively received.

 

[Rusty]

You know, steak and no sizzle. I mean, his finisher move is a fireman's carry. I know Hogan and Rock both had ridiculously flashy finishers (Leg Drop and Elbow Drop) but Hogan and Rock were on a level Cena is not, and I doubt will ever be. Cena is the biggest draw right now only because there's no competition but there is a level clearly above him.

Hogan did shape professional wrestling and the Rock was a phenomenal superstar and talent. But Cena has often been referred to as the modern day Hulk Hogan. Because he is the number one superstar in the company. You just don't want to admit it, but Cena is very close to the Rock and Hulk Hogan.

Really? Jeff Hardy is a baby face. I don't hear him sucking up to the fans in promos and the guy has been ridiculously over for years. Same for Shawn Michaels, and Undertaker, and Triple H, and R-Truth (guy is getting over, face it) and CM Punk, and Kofi Kingston, etc. These are all guys who are straight to the point in their promos. They don't ramble on needlessly for ten minutes. Ok, maybe HHH does but he has more backstage stroke than anyone else. What i'm saying is, with all the charisma Cena oozes, it would be better funneled into better promos.

Exactly, those guys don't get booed and don't need to suck up to the fans as much, but Cena does. Because of people like you who boo him, he has to suck up to the fans in hope of gaining more fan support. And it was his return promo, so why the fuck wouldn't it go for 10 minutes or longer? Please don't get me started on Triple H. He also doesn't book for himself. Cena presents some of the best promos in the WWE today. What the hell would you even call a good promo? Connecting with the fans as well as showing great emotion are the most important things in a promo, and Cena does both of them well.

You're a huge Cena mark and you've forgotten the first two words he ever said in the WWE? "RUUUUTHLESS AGGGRESSION!" Then he clotheslined the shit out of Kurt Angle and took him to the limit. And that was a rookie Cena face to face with a veteran and multiple time WWE Champion on his FIRST NIGHT and match in the WWE. So what? After that, did his balls drop off and he just found them this past Monday night? Cena's always been aggressive, this new "aggressive" Cena is bull. He hasn't changed a bit.

So Cena used to go skits when they used to diss him all the time, did he? I can't recall him going nuts like this every single week. And Cena did have a change in gimmick and character, remember the rapper? After he moved to Raw and became the top babyface in the company, he had to act less heelish by acting less aggressive. It didn't work in terms of fan support, so he acted aggressive which can be perceived as heelish on Raw this week and you still have a problem with that. Let me ask you this, what type of character do you want John Cena to have? Seriously.

Wrestlemania 22? Allstate Arena, Chicago Illinois. Pick up the DVD (if they haven't edited it out like the Mick Lick.) I was there. They also changed "YOU CAN'T WRESTLE" which no other babyface champion, to my memory, has heard.

So you're from Chicago then ey? If so, then that explains why you were just one of many smarks in that smarky crowd. I can't recall them saying "Fuck you Cena" during that match though.

And you need to learn story craft. In your mind, Cena's character is perfect. Sure, he's drawing money but he can be even better. Maybe Cena could some day be like the next Hogan or Rock, but not as this boring Cena that caters to children. Why? The fanbase that made the WWF a piss pan load of money in the 90's aren't into heroes. The baby boomers generation isn't into pro wrestling anymore but generation X is (no, not the stable, the actual Gen X) and Gen X is into anti-heroes. At this pace, I wouldn't be surprised if Randy Orton, years from now, surpassed Cena as the face of the WWE and biggest draw because his character will draw older fans, if continued to be written well. Unfortunately, consistency isn't one of the WWE creative team's strong points, so they're likely to try and change Orton face sooner or later and have it backfire in their faces but don't worry. Cena will go back to receiving mixed reactions and demeaning chants as well pretty soon, and I'll be here to say "I told you so."

No character or superstar in the history of professional wrestling is perfect. Nothing in this world is perfect. How can Cena be better? Tell me how please. Well the older fans stopped tuning in, so the WWE did the next best thing by appealing to children, which is a brilliant technique that worked very well. Oh, so you're saying this generation are into heels, are they? If so, how come Edge, Jericho, Orton, JBL and every other heel in the company get booed every week? I guess that means that this generation are NOT into heels. If Orton turned face, you'd just hate him anyway since it seems as if you hate all babyfaces. And you would be debating with me about Orton's boring character if it works effectively just like Cena's does. Cena isn't losing that top spot anytime soon. He still has a long way to go before retiring. Even if the fans start booing Cena again, it's not a big issue when you take into account he will still receive the biggest reaction from the crowd every week as well as being the face of the company still.

You obviously hate change, if even for the better. You're perfectly happy with mediocre, so enjoy your Cena reign, for as long as it is positively received.

I don't hate change. But why change a superstar's gimmick, when the current gimmick has been such a success for over 3 whole years. I think you're basically the one of the only posters on this forum who want Cena to change gimmick and turn heel. If Cena did turn heel, you'd probably love him to bits, which really doesn't make any sense as you're supposed to boo heels. If Cena's gimmick is mediocre, then why did he become the top superstar in the company? You give me no evidence to prove that he is boring and he is mediocre.

Also, I love how you only replied to 4 sentences of my huge response. In other words, you couldn't make up bullshit to reply to the other important points I said.

 

[Kyphael]

I didn't feel like staying up all night long replying to every single point you brought up; we're just going in circles anyway but for the record, we did chant "FUCK YOU CENA" to counter the women who were chanting "LET'S GO CENA." Anyway, I'm only going to reply to the points that I find can actually be debated whether than argued, as it all comes down to a matter of taste, anyway.

Cena is very close to the Rock and Hulk Hogan.

Uh, no? If Cena was anywhere near The Rock,Hogan or Austin; he would draw much more than 3.3. You want numbers? During the attitude era, thanks to Rock and Austin, RAW drew in the 6.0 mark and above. You wanted proof? That's your proof, so Cena is nowhere near either man's level in terms of drawing power or popularity. And don't say Austin and Rock were not the only reason the show drew that much because you've already claimed in an earlier post that guys like Rock and Austin were carrying the company on their shoulders because the rest of the show sucked, so you'd be contradicting yourself.

Exactly, those guys don't get booed and don't need to suck up to the fans as much, but Cena does. Because of people like you who boo him, he has to suck up to the fans in hope of gaining more fan support.

Do I even need to point out how pitiful and pathetic that was? You basically just said John Cena NEEDS to suck up to women and children because mature fans or "smarks" as you would call them boo him. Good lord. So people cheer him out of pity? I thought he was over!

What the hell would you even call a good promo? Connecting with the fans as well as showing great emotion are the most important things in a promo, and Cena does both of them well.

I never disputed Cena's ability to connect with the fans. As I've already said, my beef is with the man's character. He is scripted, I know he doesn't write his own stuff and yet h still managed to get way over (with a certain demographic) because he oozes charisma but just think how much he would be over if he had an edgier character, not necessary a heel, but more of an anti-hero like Orton. Picture Orton's character with somebody who has more charisma, such as Cena. That's partly what he was on SmackDown as the rapper babyface. He embarrassed his opponents and had the aggression to back it up and don't tell me he wasn't aggressive. Look back on his feuds with The Undertaker and Brock Lesnar. Pissing on a gravestone, slapping Brock Lesnar in the face?

Well the older fans stopped tuning in, so the WWE did the next best thing by appealing to children, which is a brilliant technique that worked very well. Oh, so you're saying this generation are into heels, are they? If so, how come Edge, Jericho, Orton, JBL and every other heel in the company get booed every week?

If Edge is not so popular, then why did he get cheered over Rey Mysterio this past year at the Royal Rumble? Mysterio has the same fan demographic as Cena. Why is Orton receiving pops during his entrances and promos? Ok, JBL doesn't get cheered but it's because he's a heel that fans can't relate to; he isn't the anti-hero archetype. His character is a lot like Vince McMahon, one of the most hated and effective heels of all time. Jericho in a suit is a different kind of heel as well. He's not even an anti-hero; he's something between JBL and Orton but leaning more towards JBL without the being rich angle. A little monotone, which is in complete contrast to Undisputed Champion heel Jericho but he isn't cowardly heel like Undisputed Champion heel Jericho. You see, Orton and Edge, unlike current Jericho and Orton don't cut promos saying they're better than everyone else based on money and moral fiber. Edge for example takes pride in being the Rated R superstar; he's uncensored, whereas Orton gloats about being the future; he's young and athletically gifted. Just like baby faces like Hardy and Cena don't cut the same promos. There are different kinds of heels and faces. The problem I have with Cena's type of face character is, as I've already said, ridiculously bland! This isn't the rock'n roll wrestling era. That was twenty years ago, do something fresh for God's sake and don't tell me everyone's already been done. No two writers will ever tell a story from an exact equal point of view.

If Cena did turn heel, you'd probably love him to bits, which really doesn't make any sense as you're supposed to boo heels. If Cena's gimmick is mediocre, then why did he become the top superstar in the company? You give me no evidence to prove that he is boring and he is mediocre.

Only if it was done right. And I'm not supposed to do anything. When I pay and go to a show, I cheer for and boo whoever the hell I want, not who I'm told to. I'm not a sheep. Cena got over because the guy has the "it" factor; he can get over with anything you give him but it doesn't mean it's the best fit. The evidence I give you is I don't like his character. You do realize you've been arguing about my taste, right? I've never out right gone out and said Cena's character is what EVERYONE hates and it should change. I know he's over, I admitted he is and I said older male fans or "smarks" as you like to call them hate him, which is also true, judging by most mixed reactions he's received the past three years. The Monday Night return doesn't count; that was just one promo, not quite enough time for the smarks who did cheer or were indifferent to be sick of him already. Give it a couple of weeks of redundancy.

 

[RBH]

John Cena is the real deal. I did not believe that a year ago but Cena has proven time and time again how good he is with his charmisma and his athleticism. It takes real athleticism and grit to come back from 2 injuries. Most of us would quit after 1. But that man came back. I seriously believe that after Cena is done wrestling, he will easily be able to find a job in the movie buisness or anything else that he might like. As I have said before, his character is being written really well right now and he is somewhat more interesting to the common man. Plus, it all has a lot to do with who he feuds with and how well he gells with them.

 

[Slyfox696]

I used to think that it really was just the same thing match in and match out when it came to Cena. After watching WWE for the past few months I reall can't pick out 1 wrestler who does not do the same thing match in and match out. Example: Batista spinebuster, jump on rope like a monkey, Batista Bomb. See it's the same sequence match in and match out.

Precisely. And this what I constantly tried to point out to people when people kept coming up with that lame nonsense. Well, that and...

When people say that Cena has the same match over and over again, they are not looking at the matches in the right way. They are only looking at what moves are done, not the story that is being told. Being able to have different matches is not about what moves you do in each match. It's about what kinds of different stories are being told depending on the wrestler's character, the opponent's style, and the type of feud. Cena is a master at being able to adapt himself to get the best out of his opponents. All you have to do is watch his matches over the past 3 years to see how versatile of a worker he is.

This is also what I said.

And, to extend upon that, if you watch Cena's PPV matches, it's not even close to the same match. RVD, Edge, Lashley, HBK, Triple H...all of those are significantly different in not just the story, but the layout as well.

Still, I have a bad feeling about this...John Cena's previous title reigns have been nothing but boring and I don't see any signs of change.

Ratings would argue that Cena's previous title reigns were the MOST INTERESTING reigns on Raw since 2003.

Cena is overpushed nobody should comeback their first night get a title match and win the title I don't care who they are especially when their top finishing move is a modified firemans carry which any high school wrestler is capable of pulling off...Cena does not deserve the title at this time.

This reeks of ignorance and immaturity. I choose not to waste anymore time with this post.

Then the moves I feel he does are oftern overexaggerated much like the rock and somehow are now called signature moves when theyre really not, like his overexaggerated suplexes.

Then the fact that WWE pushes this guy as like the best i mean they make him number 1, probably cus he sells merchandise and has that "Explosion" power he can bring forth reaction from the fans.

And of course the superman epidemic, lets see the never say die stuff, hustle loyalty respect all of this stuff, pretty much fits into the character so that all boils into one ive already mentioned I despise the cena character which is why I dont want to even see him on my screen

I enjoyed Raw during his leave, but now that hes back its all about cena, as it was every commercial, Cena's spoilin for a fight, cmon get real this stuff is just too much, I dont know whats worse WWE pushing Cena down our throats or WWE pushing the old boring Triple H down our throats,

Cena too me hasnt changed even in his comeback only thing that changed was he's more aggressive which too me isnt impressive, and the way they made him own jericho i mean cmon this is not proper build into armageddon, they're pretty much saying cena will just beat jericho to a bloody pulp as he did on monday night raw in like 3 or 4 minutes snap the STFU on him then BANG! its ova..cmon now after y2j defeated the likes of batista and shawn micheals very creatively might i add.

Too me cena's just too origional, he reminds me alot of hogan, just a product, I cant put my faith in cena as I would Kurt Angle or Edge or even Randy Orton, theres never anything new to expect cus we see the same old thing which can be said for a lot of wretlers but the man of the hour here is Cena, so to be honest I'd rather not see Caena at all, I'd rather him go to TNA or pick up acting.

Theres just something about WWE pushing ppl down our throats and practiacally begging us to cheer for them...

But anyways i guess anyone can debate my post but its all mainly opinion which it being my personal opinion shouldnt be debated over cus thats how i feel and will continue to feel until something drastically happens to the cena character, perhaps wwe should make him go heel. Alot of new tactics and characteristics come from a wrestler being heel, just look at edge, i thought he was boring until he went heel and pulled all of these new faces we've never seen before from him, I think its possible for cena.

Thats all, thanks for reading my post.

How are those moves not signature moves, when they've become a major staple of his arsenal?

Furthermore, of course they are over exaggerated. That's called "showmanship".

I think it's funny how everyone says that the WWE is pushing Cena down their throat, when he's been back for a week. Did you all watch wrestling back in 1997/98/99? When Steve Austin was on for about an hour and a half every week? But nobody ever complains about that.

Finally, how do you expect to see a change in a character...in two nights?

The best draw or not, Survivor Series was already sold out before Cena's unfair victory and that wouldn't have changed whether Cena won or lost. Even if it was his hometown, fuck it; it's a business.

Sure it would have.

But the question is how many more people bought the PPV because Cena was coming back?

In my opinion, the year-long build for Jericho's new heel character was destroyed in the course of two nights by having a rusty, just-returning-from-a-sidelining-injury, body-building, sloppy brawler (and not even a good brawler at that. His punches look awful!) beat the bigget heel of the year after defeating the likes of HBK and Batista, then beat him to a pulp the following evening.

Pretty stupid post really.

Cena's a terrific wrestler. Wrestling is not about moves, but rather about the stories you tell, the way you play your character, and the ability to connect with an audience.

The difference is, Edge did not destroy any character's credibility by snaking his way back to the top. He did his job as a heel and got the job one. One might say Cena did his job as a babyface, but it didn't need to go down that way, for story-line reasons already posted above. Really, who did Edge make look bad? No one. He intervened at the end of the match and picked up the scraps after HHH and Kozlov had already pounded the hell out of eachother. Cena comes back like Superman, faces the biggest heel of his brand and wins. That made Jericho look like shit, I don't care how long he dominated the match for. In the end, he still couldn't get the job done and it made him look lousy. No matter how much he beat up Cena, he couldn't put him away because it doesn't matter if Cena had just come back from injury. According to creative, he's indestructible, unbreakable which is really bad story-telling. Not faulting Cena for it, the guy plays his role well, creative is to blame here.

Another ridiculous post.

Cena didn't make Jericho look bad because he won. That's just silly.

Chris Jericho doesn't have any credibility as champion? Are you mad? "Transitional champion or not" argument aside, Jericho is a record-setting eight time Intercontinental Champion, the first-ever Undisputed Champion and a four time World's Champion to boot. He has beaten virtually every single top-tier competitor that tenured in the WWE during his time, from Benoit, Angle, Triple H, Edge, Batista, Shawn Michaels, Austin, Rock (both on the same night, no one has ever done that), then again individually on consecutive PPV's. The man is a grand-slam champion and yet you claim he had no credibility as champion? Did you just start watching WWE this year?

So wait...

Does Jericho have credibility or not? Are you telling me that a decade's worth of credibility can be destroyed with one match? Because if so, then he obviously didn't have much credibility to begin with. You need to make up your mind.

Cena didn't put Edge over; with the way Edge first became champion, anyone could have been in Cena's place and it would have played out the same way. All Cena had to do was take a spear. What effort was there in that? And Edge had already been over as a face or a heel prior to that for years. Maybe not a main event level, but in my opinion it was his real life taken to screen feud with Matt Hardy that finally put Edge over as a legitimate main event level star, not John Cena. Edge became known as the Rated-R Superstar for stealing his friend's girl, not spearing Cena and winning the title.

Bullshit.

Cena did the one thing that the WWE could NEVER do, and that was make Edge a legitimate main-eventer. The WWE tried for years to get fans to buy Edge as a main-event threat, but it wasn't until his feud with Cena that fans began to believe Edge as a main-eventer. You can be a World Champion, and not be over with the fans (see CM Punk).

Cena put Edge over, and it's not even debatable.

And really, it's all just getting old. A wrestler shouldn't have to be portrayed as invincible and perfect to get over. Take The Rock for example, one of the most over wrestlers of all time. He went out of his way quite often to show vulnerability so that the fans could connect with him more. I think a lot more fans would connect with Cena if they showed him having more vulnerability, rather than just doing the whole "I represent the people" routine.

Cena shows a ton of vulnerability.

Isn't that what people talk about all the time? How Cena just gets beat down all match before making his comeback?

Cena is booked very similarly to how Hulk Hogan was booked back in the 80s.

I don't want to de-rail the debate between Rusty and Smarky(jk), but I just have to throw this question out there.

How the hell do people get it in their thick skulls that Cena does nothing but the same 3 or 4 moves over and over again? Especially odd seeing as how other smarks will say its only five. Well here is my answer, ITS BECAUSE HE DOES MORE THAN FIVE MOVES. You people are thinking of "signature moves," which is a whole different matter.

Honestly, bashing Cena for doing his signature moves is just dumb.Taker has the "Old School," and snake eyes, HBK always does the elbow and atomic drops, and Batista has the spear and spinebuster. Many of the best wrestlers of all time only did signature moves. Austin always did his press at the beggining of the match, yet I never saw people complaining about that. I guess it was because his gimmick was "cool" though.

Oh, and for the record, Cena does more than five moves. I've seen him do side slams, body slams, vertical suplexes, bulldogs, back breakers, and many more.

An example of this is Wrestlemania 24. He started out with a bulldog(1), then did a verticle suplex(2). He later did the front-flip bulldog(3), and then a top rope leg drop(4). He then did a five-nuckle shuffle(5), and later an STFU(6).

Well what do ya know, six moves! Its a good thing he didn't do the FU, or else it would have been seven!

People don't really think Cena has 4-5 moves, they just say that because they aren't smart enough to come up with any legitimate arguments against Cena.

 

[RBH]

John Cena is off to a good start in his return. hell, I even like to play as Cena in the videogame. He is by far the most interesting character to take through season mode and just see what he does. Cena has had many memorable moments as well including a certain thing called the Elimination Chamber. I would like to see him in a Hell in a Cell Match to see how he would perform. If they ever would go back to the top of the cell (which they prolly never will) Cena would be awesome if he could FU someone right through the top cell.

 

[Unrated Superstar]

I think it's funny how everyone says that the WWE is pushing Cena down their throat, when he's been back for a week. Did you all watch wrestling back in 1997/98/99? When Steve Austin was on for about an hour and a half every week? But nobody ever complains about that.

Ahem, I never was at all a fan of seeing Steve Austin all over the place, so allow me to take this opportunity to officially complain about it. I felt he was shoved down the throat as well, and was practically always booked to get the upper hand in the process...which brings me to my next point.

Cena shows a ton of vulnerability.

Isn't that what people talk about all the time? How Cena just gets beat down all match before making his comeback?

Cena is booked very similarly to how Hulk Hogan was booked back in the 80s.

So wait a minute Sly, now you're all about what people talk about all the time? When have you ever just gone along with what everyone says about anyone, especially John Cena? Yet now you're conveniently using something lots of people say to help your point? What's next, you're gonna tell me Ric Flair is the greatest of all time and Hulk Hogan wasn't shit? Your arguement would make a lot more sense if that were actually something I said and not just something a lot of people say.

Aside from that, there are two things wrong with that arguement. One is that John Cena doesn't always get beaten down the whole match, I'd say a good portion of his matches are pretty even, dare I say he even mostly gets the upper hand on occasion?

The second thing is that even when he does get beaten down and make a comeback, that's not necessarily a significant sign of vulnerability. In fact, it's an extremely common formula in wrestling matches for the winner to get his ass kicked for a good part of the match. You, Sly, being all about matches telling a story should realize that. Think about a lot of the matches the Undertaker has had, even Edge did a big number on the Undertaker at WM 24, and not just with the help of his "familia". Same thing in their HIAC match at Summerslam...and Undertaker's still known as a dominating force. Hell, Triple H makes it look like he's getting beaten down at times in some matches too, such as the DX/Miz and Morrison match where M&M almost came out victorious, or his matches against Umaga...but is he known for showing a lot of vulnerability? No, because if there is a clean and completely decisive win, most people in most cases don't remember in a given match the part where the loser got their licks in. That happens more if the match ended with something like a rollup of some sort, or some bending of the rules. Hell, Hogan vs. Andre at Wrestlemania is without a doubt considered a classic, but all you ever see as far as highlights of that match is the bodyslam, leg drop, 1-2-3. And you could attempt to argue that Cena gets these decisive wins so often because he's a face, but that isn't necessary. To elaborate on the Rock comparison, The Rock didn't always get clean and decisive wins. Half the time he didn't even win. For example, when he defeated Jericho on Raw to regain the WCW championship, Jericho beat the shit out of him, not just in a building up for a comeback way, but in a way that you can remember...and The Rock barely pulled out the win with a rollup. That's just one example, The Rock took way more beatdowns than Cena did, yet he was consistently popular.

Bottom line, when it comes down to it, showing vulnerability is about more than just letting your opponents get in some offense during a match before you own them toward the middle or end. Cena may have had his share of losses this past year, and get a little roughed up every now and then, but when's the last time you saw someone reign as a world champion for a little over a year? That was a whole year of Cena pretty much all but dominating. I think that is something that adds to the whole "Superman/invincible" theory. The intention may not have been to portay him that way, but they still did.

So to say that Cena shows so much vulnerability for the mere fact that everyone talks about him getting beaten down often before he makes a comeback, and whether he really does or not, is a very flimsy arguement.

 

[BooCocky]

he Rock,Hogan or Austin; he would draw much more than 3.3/

Lies, The Rock never drew 3's. The Rocks best years were running behind Stone Cold. John Cena is the face of this company, The Rock was never the Face of the WWE. That goes to Austin. You talked about wrestling in the late 90's and early 2000's Austin was one of the first people that came to mind.

During the Attitude Era when Raw was drawing 6's the WWE was a better product. They had better stars, They had a Taker in his prime, they had Austin, The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar etc etc, and shit they even had a stellar mid card. That is something they dont have today.

Cena always gets a great reaction, whether it's a mixture of boo's and cheers, all boo's or all cheers. People pay to see Cena win, and the smarks pay to see him lose.

So whether you like it or not you're going to hear "The Champ is Here" for years to come. Unless he gets hit with a serious injury. Hopefully not though, I'd cry.

 

[Kyphael]

Lies, The Rock never drew 3's. The Rocks best years were running behind Stone Cold. John Cena is the face of this company, The Rock was never the Face of the WWE. That goes to Austin. You talked about wrestling in the late 90's and early 2000's Austin was one of the first people that came to mind.

Did you watch WWF in 2000? That was the year of The Rock. He was the face of the WWF in 2000. Stone Cold was out most of the year recuperating from neck fusion surgery. Who do you think was making all the money in merchandising? Selling PPV's? Drawing jam-packed arenas? Triple H? Undertaker with his biker gimmick? The rookie everyone hated, Kurt Angle? It was The Rock.

During the Attitude Era when Raw was drawing 6's the WWE was a better product. They had better stars, They had a Taker in his prime, they had Austin, The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar etc etc, and shit they even had a stellar mid card. That is something they dont have today.

Did you just say Undertaker was in his prime during the late 90's? He could hardly walk in 1999; he was in the worst shape ever, and I don't even think Undertaker in his prime has ever been a draw, much less HHH and Kurt Angle. Brock Lesnar came later in 2002 but surrounded by guys like Hogan, Rock and Austin; Lesnar sure as hell wasn't the one drawing. He was the right guy, with the right look, at the right place, at the right time.

 

[Rusty]

Anyway, I'm only going to reply to the points that I find can actually be debated whether than argued, as it all comes down to a matter of taste, anyway.

I know it comes down to a matter of taste, but don't tell me John Cena is a boring character, when he clearly is not. I'm not forcing you to like Cena.

Uh, no? If Cena was anywhere near The Rock,Hogan or Austin; he would draw much more than 3.3. You want numbers? During the attitude era, thanks to Rock and Austin, RAW drew in the 6.0 mark and above. You wanted proof? That's your proof, so Cena is nowhere near either man's level in terms of drawing power or popularity. And don't say Austin and Rock were not the only reason the show drew that much because you've already claimed in an earlier post that guys like Rock and Austin were carrying the company on their shoulders because the rest of the show sucked, so you'd be contradicting yourself.

Yes Hogan, The Rock and Steve Austin were the top drawers in the company, just like Cena is now. The ratings will never be in the 6.0's again. The Rock could return as a full time WWE Superstar, and the ratings still wouldn't be that high. Like I said before, the older fans have moved on from watching wrestling. And when the hell did I say Austin and the Rock carried the show 8 years ago and that nothing else on the show was any good? I don't recall saying that. Please stop making things up.

Do I even need to point out how pitiful and pathetic that was? You basically just said John Cena NEEDS to suck up to women and children because mature fans or "smarks" as you would call them boo him. Good lord. So people cheer him out of pity? I thought he was over!

Exactly he does, because of ignorant people like yourself who boo John Cena which disrespects him as his job is to get cheered. How many times do I have to tell you that? And people don't cheer him out of pity, they cheer him because he is the modern day Hulk Hogan, he is their hero and he is the best thing in the business today as well as being a babyface. And he is over, just not as over as a face as what he'd like to be. There's a difference between being over, and being over as a face. I shouldn't need to tell you that because it's basic common sense.

I never disputed Cena's ability to connect with the fans. As I've already said, my beef is with the man's character. He is scripted, I know he doesn't write his own stuff and yet h still managed to get way over (with a certain demographic) because he oozes charisma but just think how much he would be over if he had an edgier character, not necessary a heel, but more of an anti-hero like Orton. Picture Orton's character with somebody who has more charisma, such as Cena. That's partly what he was on SmackDown as the rapper babyface. He embarrassed his opponents and had the aggression to back it up and don't tell me he wasn't aggressive. Look back on his feuds with The Undertaker and Brock Lesnar. Pissing on a gravestone, slapping Brock Lesnar in the face?

How do you know his promos are completely scripted? You can't prove that. He is already OVER, he doesn't need to be more edgier to get a bigger reaction, because he already receives the largest reaction from the fans every single week. He could become more cheered, he doesn't need a complete gimmick change to do it. Acting more aggressive like he was on Raw this week is exactly how Cena should be. And you can't compare Orton to Cena. Orton is a heel, so it's his role to be more edgier in order to get more booed. Cena is not. If Cena was in Orton's position, he would be a heel which is not what the WWE wants. Get over your heel obsession already!

If Edge is not so popular, then why did he get cheered over Rey Mysterio this past year at the Royal Rumble? Mysterio has the same fan demographic as Cena. Why is Orton receiving pops during his entrances and promos? Ok, JBL doesn't get cheered but it's because he's a heel that fans can't relate to; he isn't the anti-hero archetype. His character is a lot like Vince McMahon, one of the most hated and effective heels of all time. Jericho in a suit is a different kind of heel as well. He's not even an anti-hero; he's something between JBL and Orton but leaning more towards JBL without the being rich angle.

The Royal Rumble was held in Madison Square Garden, which is one of the smarkiest crowds in the world. That crowd booed Cena and Mysterio, and cheered Orton and Edge. There's your evidence of how pathetic that crowd was. And Orton was booed this week, so I can't say he's being cheered much anymore. Just because these heels were cheered few times within the past 12 months, doesn't make the new generation completely into heels.

A little monotone, which is in complete contrast to Undisputed Champion heel Jericho but he isn't cowardly heel like Undisputed Champion heel Jericho. You see, Orton and Edge, unlike current Jericho and Orton don't cut promos saying they're better than everyone else based on money and moral fiber. Edge for example takes pride in being the Rated R superstar; he's uncensored, whereas Orton gloats about being the future; he's young and athletically gifted. Just like baby faces like Hardy and Cena don't cut the same promos. There are different kinds of heels and faces. The problem I have with Cena's type of face character is, as I've already said, ridiculously bland! This isn't the rock'n roll wrestling era. That was twenty years ago, do something fresh for God's sake and don't tell me everyone's already been done. No two writers will ever tell a story from an exact equal point of view.

I know there are different types of faces, which is what I pointed out to you that Cena needs to suck up more than Jeff Hardy! Cena's character is not bland. Thousands of people still seem to enjoy it so obviously you're one of the few people who doesn't. But I do have a problem with you just automatically hating every babyface's character, based on the fact that they are well..... babyfaces. You obviously have a problem with babyfaces which is something you really need to get over. Edge, JBL, HBK, Batista, Triple H, Undertaker and Rey Mysterio have all had the same gimmick for years, yet you pick on the gimmick that has been the most successful. If you don't like Cena, don't watch the product. Simple as that.

Only if it was done right. And I'm not supposed to do anything. When I pay and go to a show, I cheer for and boo whoever the hell I want, not who I'm told to. I'm not a sheep. Cena got over because the guy has the "it" factor; he can get over with anything you give him but it doesn't mean it's the best fit. The evidence I give you is I don't like his character. You do realize you've been arguing about my taste, right? I've never out right gone out and said Cena's character is what EVERYONE hates and it should change. I know he's over, I admitted he is and I said older male fans or "smarks" as you like to call them hate him, which is also true, judging by most mixed reactions he's received the past three years. The Monday Night return doesn't count; that was just one promo, not quite enough time for the smarks who did cheer or were indifferent to be sick of him already. Give it a couple of weeks of redundancy.

So you will basically hate Cena as a face but love him as a heel, based on the fact that heels are "cooler". It just doesn't make any sense to me. I've always liked Cena, therefore I'm a loyal Cena supporter, I won't hate the guy if he turns heel because I'd respect him just as much. You and your "smarky" group are what is hurting wrestling the most today. You just go against what the WWE wants you to do. Babyfaces work their asses off to get cheered, yet you rub it into their face by booing them. The opposite thing happens with heels. I know you hate Cena's character, but because you hate almost every other babyface based on the fact that they are "suck ups, bland and less cool", it really grinds my gears. The heel does all the entertaining parts, we get that. The babyface's role, is basically to get beat up right before belting the shit out of the heel that the fans hate. It's wrestling 101. And don't you dare tell me people will get sick of Cena, because your "hero" Edge has won 6 World Titles in two years and is the current WWE Champion. Don't you dare give me that argument. Edge is shoved down our throats more than Cena, especially in 2008. There is absolutely no denying that.

 

[Kyphael]

I know it comes down to a matter of taste, but don't tell me John Cena is a boring character, when he clearly is not. I'm not forcing you to like Cena.

You basically just confirmed this argument is a matter of taste and then posted an absolute that Cena is definitely not bland within the same sentence.

Yes Hogan, The Rock and Steve Austin were the top drawers in the company, just like Cena is now. The ratings will never be in the 6.0's again. The Rock could return as a full time WWE Superstar, and the ratings still wouldn't be that high. Like I said before, the older fans have moved on from watching wrestling.

It was a gradual decrease from the 6.0’s to the 3.0’s because guys like Austin and Rock moved on and weren’t interested in the new faces. The ratings didn’t just drop one night to the next. If Cena was as great as you claim he is, he could have brought back the fans who turned away from wrestling but no; he can adhere to one demographic and one demographic alone: women and children.

Exactly he does, because of ignorant people like yourself who boo John Cena which disrespects him as his job is to get cheered. How many times do I have to tell you that? And people don't cheer him out of pity, they cheer him because he is the modern day Hulk Hogan, he is their hero and he is the best thing in the business today as well as being a babyface. And he is over, just not as over as a face as what he'd like to be. There's a difference between being over, and being over as a face. I shouldn't need to tell you that because it's basic common sense.

Smarks are ignorant because they cheer for who they like? You take pro wrestling a little too seriously. I rather be a smark than a sheep that does whatever World Wrestling Entertainment tells me to do. I don’t cheer for Cena because his character, as I already said doesn’t appeal to me. I can’t take his brown-nosing promos seriously. If you do, great for you, you are the ideal WWE fan. Oh wait, Vince McMahon doesn’t like the word “fan.” So you’re the ideal part of the WWE “UNIVERSE!”

How do you know his promos are completely scripted? You can't prove that.

I can’t prove it to you but as far as we all know, every show from beginning, middle and ending is scripted and no one is exempt; not even Vince’s “boy.” They all read from a script and play out their characters as any other actor would for a TV episode. That’s all RAW, SmackDown and ECW is; entertainment sitcoms. Cena isn’t out there saying what comes to mind, he had it memorized prior to even walking through those curtains. If you don’t know that, then you are truly as far away from being a smark as Indian children who think The Great Khali is really great.

Get over your heel obsession already!

There’s the pot calling the kettle black. Why don’t you get your head out of Cena’s ass. You’re lashing out at me for criticizing a television character! Your love for John Cena is borderline disturbing.

The Royal Rumble was held in Madison Square Garden, which is one of the smarkiest crowds in the world. That crowd booed Cena and Mysterio, and cheered Orton and Edge. There's your evidence of how pathetic that crowd was.

Now you are attacking an entire mass of people just because they don’t share the same passion for your beloved John Cena character. You will really stop at nothing until you can convert everyone into Cena sympathizers, will you? Guess what? Despite everything you’ve said, I still think the John Cena character sucks. All he ever does is suck up to crowds, he throws the most God awful looking punches, and his finishing move is a joke (AN ELEVATED CLUSTERFUCK OF A FIREMAN’S CARRY? HONESTLY!)

And Orton was booed this week, so I can't say he's being cheered much anymore. Just because these heels were cheered few times within the past 12 months, doesn't make the new generation completely into heels.

I didn’t say the new generation was completely into heels but anti-heroes. People no longer buy into the straight-laced, sweet-talking, clean cut good guys. Why do you think Hogan’s popularity dwindled in the mid 90’s? Why do you think WWF and WCW both created edgier characters while trying to outdo one another? The only reason John Cena’s character is the way it is today is because WWE has no viable competition. They claim all forms of “Entertainment” are competition to them but we know that’s a load of crap. Vince McMahon has always worked better with his back against the wall, as he is often more open to new and fresh ideas opposed to the same, age old formula he has been doing for years, which is why John Cena sucks as well as most of the show in comparison to what it was even four years ago.

Cena's character is not bland. Thousands of people still seem to enjoy it so obviously you're one of the few people who doesn't.

You just called the entire New York City crowd pathetic and smarky for disliking Cena, yet you now said I’m one of the few people who doesn’t like him? You just keep digging deeper. Did you also forget the Chicago crowd nearly jeered him out of the building? And the ECW crowds; that’s hardly a few people, it’s more in the thousands and given the mixed reactions Cena has received, I would say there are as many people that hate his character as there are those that love him.

You obviously have a problem with babyfaces which is something you really need to get over. Edge, JBL, HBK, Batista, Triple H, Undertaker and Rey Mysterio have all had the same gimmick for years, yet you pick on the gimmick that has been the most successful. If you don't like Cena, don't watch the product. Simple as that.

Not really, not all; sure, I will admit, I generally prefer bad guys over good guys, not just in wrestling but any facet of entertainment, but the heroes I do hate, I hate for a reason, not just because they are heroes. I hate Cena’s character for reasons already infinitely explained. I hate Shawn Michaels’ character because the man who claims to be a born again Christian still comes out skipping like a twelve-year-old, wearing leather chaps, dancing to “I’m just a sexy boy!” and the guy is wearing crucifixes all over his attire. I’m atheist and even I think that’s just wrong. I dislike Batista’s character because he lacks very little depth. His want has always been “I’M THE ANIMAL, I WANT THAT TITLE!” I don’t remember him ever cutting a good promo; not ever and the guy has been on top for years; go figure. There are baby faces I like, because they work. Rey Mysterio, despite his terrible promo skills appeals to the entire Hispanic demographic. The Undertaker’s dead man character, as simple and repetitive as it is still has a mystique that allows him to stay over without even having to talk. It’s all about the powers he can conjure up and his seemingly indestructible nature, which for him works because his character is super natural, yet he still isn’t invincible. Cena on the other hand, is portrayed as a man, yet booked to look stronger than The Undertaker.

You and your "smarky" group are what is hurting wrestling the most today.

Yes, of course, because in a perfect world, everyone would cheer for John Cena and boo Chris Jericho. In a perfect world, everyone would also look the same, act the same, dress the same and talk the same.

The babyface's role, is basically to get beat up right before belting the shit out of the heel that the fans hate. It's wrestling 101.

Very nice, except WWE isn’t wrestling, it’s entertainment. If it was wrestling, you’d see two guys rolling around on the mat wearing singlets trying to pin each other for the one count. In story-telling, the hero or as you like to call him, “baby face”, does suffer at the hands of a villain or heel until fighting back and overcoming the odds, except Cena has nothing left to overcome. He’s on top, that’s it, he’ll hold the title hostage which isn’t the best way to tell the story of a struggling hero. He hardly struggled this past Monday night when he was beating the beejezus out of Jericho, at the beginning of their story, I might add and don’t bring their 2005 program as back story. Vince McMahon and the creative team don’t even remember as far as what they did in 2007.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

So you will basically hate Cena as a face but love him as a heel, based on the fact that heels are "cooler". It just doesn't make any sense to me. I've always liked Cena, therefore I'm a loyal Cena supporter, I won't hate the guy if he turns heel because I'd respect him just as much. You and your "smarky" group are what is hurting wrestling the most today. You just go against what the WWE wants you to do. Babyfaces work their asses off to get cheered, yet you rub it into their face by booing them. The opposite thing happens with heels. I know you hate Cena's character, but because you hate almost every other babyface based on the fact that they are "suck ups, bland and less cool", it really grinds my gears. The heel does all the entertaining parts, we get that. The babyface's role, is basically to get beat up right before belting the shit out of the heel that the fans hate. It's wrestling 101. And don't you dare tell me people will get sick of Cena, because your "hero" Edge has won 6 World Titles in two years and is the current WWE Champion. Don't you dare give me that argument. Edge is shoved down our throats more than Cena, especially in 2008. There is absolutely no denying that.

I am responding to this particular portion of your post because I think you have misinterpreted the treatment Cena gets by so-called "smarky" fans. And, of course, this will segue into my feelings about Cena.

To paraphrase your post, you say that "smarky" fans deride what WWE does (in particular, what their babyfaces do) simply because it goes against what WWE wants them to do (before continuing, I must state that I am making the pretty safe assumption that almost all "smarky" fans are, at the very least, in young adulthood). While I think you are correct in saying that these fans lash out against Cena, I don't think you are right in saying that the reason they do so is merely to defy the power of WWE. Rather, I think these particular fans do so for three reasons. One, they have a good history with WWE and will buy virtually everything that it offers. Two, wrestlers like John Cena are clearly not what they are looking for in the WWE product they consume. And, three, WWE cannot take a hint. When these reasons are taken together, I think it is easy to infer that "smarky" fans do not disparage Cena simply to rebel against authority, but because it is the most emphatic and clear way to convey their feelings about the current WWE product.

Of course, this still leaves the question of why Cena is not what they are looking for. In order for me to best answer this, I think an analogy to superheroes is apt at this point. Simply put, these fans are looking for the Watchmen, not Superman. Like Superman, Cena, for lack of better words, is like an "alien" to "smarky" fans (read: wresting fans who are, at least, young adults). Literally, he is an "alien," like Superman, because he is booked to be a virtually indestructible wrestler, who, in the worst-case scenario, throughout his feuds, may occasionally hit a bump or two in the road. Metaphorically, Cena is "alien" because he is booked to wrestle in a world where black & white and good & evil are clearly demarcated and where no in-between or gray area exists.

But, this is clearly not the way the world is. Personally, we don't just hit bumps; without a doubt, sometimes or maybe even most of the time, we just flat out lose or are straight-up beaten. Additionally, we all feel fear, uncertainty, doubt, or a mix of all three at some point in our life. And, socially and personally, if we come at odds with another group or person, it is almost always true that, if we can empathize, it will be hard not to see and understand where this other group or person is coming from. (As to how this all relates to the Watchmen, well, I think you just have to read Watchmen; of course, if necessary, I will elaborate on how this is so if asked).

So, to put things in the most precise way possible, the fans who boo Cena boo him because they are not looking for escapism; they are looking for a realistic wrestler whose character appreciates life as it is.

Now, as you may have already been able to tell from this post, I most definitely sympathize with these "smarky" fans. Moreover, he (Cena) is someone I could do without. However, I do understand why some would find him appealing and I do think he is an asset to WWE. But, I definitely do not think that, in being cognizant of the fact that WWE is consumed by more than one particular demographic, Cena should be the cornerstone of WWE; rather, I think he should be the cornerstone of only one of their "brands" while WWE looks to other wrestlers to anchor their other "brands."

 

[JackAttack]

Ahem, I never was at all a fan of seeing Steve Austin all over the place, so allow me to take this opportunity to officially complain about it. I felt he was shoved down the throat as well, and was practically always booked to get the upper hand in the process...which brings me to my next point.



So wait a minute Sly, now you're all about what people talk about all the time? When have you ever just gone along with what everyone says about anyone, especially John Cena? Yet now you're conveniently using something lots of people say to help your point? What's next, you're gonna tell me Ric Flair is the greatest of all time and Hulk Hogan wasn't shit? Your arguement would make a lot more sense if that were actually something I said and not just something a lot of people say.

Aside from that, there are two things wrong with that arguement. One is that John Cena doesn't always get beaten down the whole match, I'd say a good portion of his matches are pretty even, dare I say he even mostly gets the upper hand on occasion?

The second thing is that even when he does get beaten down and make a comeback, that's not necessarily a significant sign of vulnerability. In fact, it's an extremely common formula in wrestling matches for the winner to get his ass kicked for a good part of the match. You, Sly, being all about matches telling a story should realize that. Think about a lot of the matches the Undertaker has had, even Edge did a big number on the Undertaker at WM 24, and not just with the help of his "familia". Same thing in their HIAC match at Summerslam...and Undertaker's still known as a dominating force. Hell, Triple H makes it look like he's getting beaten down at times in some matches too, such as the DX/Miz and Morrison match where M&M almost came out victorious, or his matches against Umaga...but is he known for showing a lot of vulnerability? No, because if there is a clean and completely decisive win, most people in most cases don't remember in a given match the part where the loser got their licks in. That happens more if the match ended with something like a rollup of some sort, or some bending of the rules. Hell, Hogan vs. Andre at Wrestlemania is without a doubt considered a classic, but all you ever see as far as highlights of that match is the bodyslam, leg drop, 1-2-3. And you could attempt to argue that Cena gets these decisive wins so often because he's a face, but that isn't necessary. To elaborate on the Rock comparison, The Rock didn't always get clean and decisive wins. Half the time he didn't even win. For example, when he defeated Jericho on Raw to regain the WCW championship, Jericho beat the shit out of him, not just in a building up for a comeback way, but in a way that you can remember...and The Rock barely pulled out the win with a rollup. That's just one example, The Rock took way more beatdowns than Cena did, yet he was consistently popular.

Bottom line, when it comes down to it, showing vulnerability is about more than just letting your opponents get in some offense during a match before you own them toward the middle or end. Cena may have had his share of losses this past year, and get a little roughed up every now and then, but when's the last time you saw someone reign as a world champion for a little over a year? That was a whole year of Cena pretty much all but dominating. I think that is something that adds to the whole "Superman/invincible" theory. The intention may not have been to portay him that way, but they still did.

So to say that Cena shows so much vulnerability for the mere fact that everyone talks about him getting beaten down often before he makes a comeback, and whether he really does or not, is a very flimsy arguement.

Let me ask you this. Who else right now do you think is capable of having a title reign for that long? Punk and Jericho flopped, so who else does that leave? HBK? Cena got the long reign because he was one of the best at the time, and he still is today. He makes tons of money, so why wouldn't you want to give him the title?

As far as your amazingly obscure dominating argument goes, unlsess its against a face, Cena almost always gets dominated. He got dominated in his matches with Triple H, Orton, JBL, Kennedy, pretty much everyone. The only time recently when he's truly seemed dominant was against priceless,and he's way out of their league, so what did you expect? Besides, him and Batista got dominated in their matches with priceless as well, meaning they were able to put them over despite winning in a dominate fashion.

You see thats the thing, people who lose to Cena almost always come out looking better, which is the whole point. JBL looked like a legitamate threat, he made Kennedy look vicious, and Cena never ceases to make Orton look great either.

Cena got dominated in most of his matches through 07, and lost more matches than he won in 08, so there's far more relevant evidence pointing to the fact that he isn't too dominant.

 

[Rusty]

You basically just confirmed this argument is a matter of taste and then posted an absolute that Cena is definitely not bland within the same sentence.

Cena is not bland, in your smarky opinion he is though.

It was a gradual decrease from the 6.0’s to the 3.0’s because guys like Austin and Rock moved on and weren’t interested in the new faces. The ratings didn’t just drop one night to the next. If Cena was as great as you claim he is, he could have brought back the fans who turned away from wrestling but no; he can adhere to one demographic and one demographic alone: women and children.

The older fans don't want to watch the product, no matter who is in the company. How can you put the blame soley on John Cena? Ever thought of the booking may have something to do with the decrease in ratings? And I said Cena is nearly at the level or Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold in terms of being the best in the business. Hence the word nearly. And if Cena appeals to women and children, then how come a 17 year old teenager like myself likes Cena, and I'm sure I'm not the only one?

Smarks are ignorant because they cheer for who they like? You take pro wrestling a little too seriously. I rather be a smark than a sheep that does whatever World Wrestling Entertainment tells me to do. I don’t cheer for Cena because his character, as I already said doesn’t appeal to me. I can’t take his brown-nosing promos seriously. If you do, great for you, you are the ideal WWE fan. Oh wait, Vince McMahon doesn’t like the word “fan.” So you’re the ideal part of the WWE “UNIVERSE!”

No, smarks are ignorant for cheering heels and booing babyfaces, please pay attention. If I take pro wrestling so seriously, then why are you debating with me then? Obviously you do to. I am NOT a sheep. Some of my favourite wrestlers are Randy Orton and Chris Jericho, but I'd still boo them because they are arrogant assholes and that's their job! I'm not the "ideal" fan. I'm just merely pointing out to you that John Cena is the best entertainer in the business today. Is that so hard to understand?

I can’t prove it to you but as far as we all know, every show from beginning, middle and ending is scripted and no one is exempt; not even Vince’s “boy.” They all read from a script and play out their characters as any other actor would for a TV episode. That’s all RAW, SmackDown and ECW is; entertainment sitcoms. Cena isn’t out there saying what comes to mind, he had it memorized prior to even walking through those curtains. If you don’t know that, then you are truly as far away from being a smark as Indian children who think The Great Khali is really great.

Who the fuck even cares if his promos are scripted or not? Because that doesn't change the fact they are the best ones in the entire WWE today.

There’s the pot calling the kettle black. Why don’t you get your head out of Cena’s ass. You’re lashing out at me for criticizing a television character! Your love for John Cena is borderline disturbing.

Just because I have the sense of knowledge to know that John Cena is the top entertainer in the business today, doesn't mean I adore him. Once again, I've never mentioned that I love him but I'm just saying that he's the best there is today. What is so hard to understand?

Now you are attacking an entire mass of people just because they don’t share the same passion for your beloved John Cena character. You will really stop at nothing until you can convert everyone into Cena sympathizers, will you? Guess what? Despite everything you’ve said, I still think the John Cena character sucks. All he ever does is suck up to crowds, he throws the most God awful looking punches, and his finishing move is a joke (AN ELEVATED CLUSTERFUCK OF A FIREMAN’S CARRY? HONESTLY!)

Seriously, do you even read through my posts properly? I attacked them because they booed MULTIPLE babyfaces and cheered MULTIPLE heels. Not just John Cena. Correct! I will stop at nothing until all smarks are converted. If you're stubborn, that's not my problem though. You clearly don't know what a good character and a good superstar is. He sucks up to crowds because people like you boo him. I've told you that at least 3 times now. I've seen worse punches than what Cena does. Kane makes slaps look like punches. So now his finisher move determines whether you like him or not does it? Hogan had a leg drop and the Rock had a fricken elbow drop as a finisher, but yet they get away with it somehow.

I didn’t say the new generation was completely into heels but anti-heroes. People no longer buy into the straight-laced, sweet-talking, clean cut good guys. Why do you think Hogan’s popularity dwindled in the mid 90’s? Why do you think WWF and WCW both created edgier characters while trying to outdo one another? The only reason John Cena’s character is the way it is today is because WWE has no viable competition. They claim all forms of “Entertainment” are competition to them but we know that’s a load of crap. Vince McMahon has always worked better with his back against the wall, as he is often more open to new and fresh ideas opposed to the same, age old formula he has been doing for years, which is why John Cena sucks as well as most of the show in comparison to what it was even four years ago.

All heels are anti-heroes, so what is your point! I love the current WWE product and I'm not part of this "younger generation" that you claim who mainly watch the product. And no, Cena's character is the way it is because it has been a success for so long, just the Shawn Michael's and the Undertaker's. No reason to change a good thing. So now you just said "Cena sucks". The most ignorant and smarky comment a wrestling fan can possibly make. Please don't make me go through all the reasons why Cena doesn't suck.

You just called the entire New York City crowd pathetic and smarky for disliking Cena, yet you now said I’m one of the few people who doesn’t like him? You just keep digging deeper. Did you also forget the Chicago crowd nearly jeered him out of the building? And the ECW crowds; that’s hardly a few people, it’s more in the thousands and given the mixed reactions Cena has received, I would say there are as many people that hate his character as there are those that love him.

Let's see, the WWE has millions of fans and only a few of those crowds truly hated Cena. So I'd say I'm about right with my initial comment. Like I said, even if people do hate Cena's character it really doesn't matter to the WWE as he is still their top superstar. But it does disrespect Cena himself. Hopefully he is more edgier from now on, just so people like you can stop your mindless bashing.

Not really, not all; sure, I will admit, I generally prefer bad guys over good guys, not just in wrestling but any facet of entertainment, but the heroes I do hate, I hate for a reason, not just because they are heroes. I hate Cena’s character for reasons already infinitely explained. I hate Shawn Michaels’ character because the man who claims to be a born again Christian still comes out skipping like a twelve-year-old, wearing leather chaps, dancing to “I’m just a sexy boy!” and the guy is wearing crucifixes all over his attire. I’m atheist and even I think that’s just wrong. I dislike Batista’s character because he lacks very little depth. His want has always been “I’M THE ANIMAL, I WANT THAT TITLE!” I don’t remember him ever cutting a good promo; not ever and the guy has been on top for years; go figure. There are baby faces I like, because they work. Rey Mysterio, despite his terrible promo skills appeals to the entire Hispanic demographic. The Undertaker’s dead man character, as simple and repetitive as it is still has a mystique that allows him to stay over without even having to talk. It’s all about the powers he can conjure up and his seemingly indestructible nature, which for him works because his character is super natural, yet he still isn’t invincible. Cena on the other hand, is portrayed as a man, yet booked to look stronger than The Undertaker.

Well if you hate all heroes, then you are certainly a unique individual. But I hope you realize that without these heroes, there wouldn't be any heels for you to "love". So respect both sides equally please. And how the hell is Cena booked stronger than the Undertaker?? Undertaker almost always looks dominant. Hence the word "almost". Ever heard of 16-0? Yet Cena gets beaten up almost every week and has lost a considerable amount of high profile matches this year, especially on Pay Per View. And nobody truly believes the Undertaker is "immortal". If that was the case, he would still be undefeated now, wouldn't he. Taker is past his prime, Cena is in his prime. That may help out with that bullshit comment you made.

Yes, of course, because in a perfect world, everyone would cheer for John Cena and boo Chris Jericho.

Um, yes that would be a perfect world. The faces and heels have their separate roles and being either completely booed or completely cheered would be a dream come true for them.

Very nice, except WWE isn’t wrestling, it’s entertainment. If it was wrestling, you’d see two guys rolling around on the mat wearing singlets trying to pin each other for the one count. In story-telling, the hero or as you like to call him, “baby face”, does suffer at the hands of a villain or heel until fighting back and overcoming the odds, except Cena has nothing left to overcome. He’s on top, that’s it, he’ll hold the title hostage which isn’t the best way to tell the story of a struggling hero. He hardly struggled this past Monday night when he was beating the beejezus out of Jericho, at the beginning of their story, I might add and don’t bring their 2005 program as back story. Vince McMahon and the creative team don’t even remember as far as what they did in 2007.

World Wrestling Entertainment. I'd say the WWE has something to do with wrestling Oh, and Cena has nothing left to overcome does he? How about losing his title? That's like saying HBK, Triple H and the Undertaker have nothing left to gain. You're just talking out of your ass now. Once again, the one week he goes nuts and gets the upper hand you say "Cena looked so dominant on Raw". It was one fricken week! Get over it. That's why the feud has started out in a unique but fresh way, not to mention Cena had a little bit of a more "edgier" style which is what you so badly want despite still bashing it. Hypocrite.

 

[JackAttack]

Very nice, except WWE isn’t wrestling, it’s entertainment. If it was wrestling, you’d see two guys rolling around on the mat wearing singlets trying to pin each other for the one count. In story-telling, the hero or as you like to call him, “baby face”, does suffer at the hands of a villain or heel until fighting back and overcoming the odds, except Cena has nothing left to overcome. He’s on top, that’s it, he’ll hold the title hostage which isn’t the best way to tell the story of a struggling hero. He hardly struggled this past Monday night when he was beating the beejezus out of Jericho, at the beginning of their story, I might add and don’t bring their 2005 program as back story. Vince McMahon and the creative team don’t even remember as far as what they did in 2007.

Yawn. As always, the bulk of your criticisms against Cena are based on things that happened over a year ago. You didn't ourtright say it, but you're basically drawing that assumption from his perviously long title reign. So he held the title for over a year, big deal. Who else would they have put it on? Cena make the most money, so it makes sense to put the belt on him, get it?

Also, how the hell do you know he'll keep the title for so long? Did you really expect Batista to take Jericho's title, only to lose it a few weeks later? What was your reaction when Cena lost at WM and Backlash, and then later to JBL and Triple H? You can't tell me that the smarks were expecting that to happen, because according to them, he's a "superman."

Oh, and your argument on him not struggling is idiotic. He's lost almost all of his big matches this year, so letting him be dominant one night is not a big deal.

Personally, I don't think your a smark, you're too smart to be one. But your criticisms of Cena are lame and contradictary. You don't have to like Cena, I'm not asking you to. However, until you come up with some valid criticisms, many people on here will never look at you as more than anything but a "Czena hater."

 

[2012isbs]

John Cena is one of the hardest workers to date in WWE he had an injury that most would be out with for a year and was only out for 3 months. He would do whatever it took to get over. Cena being over with kids is a good thing who in WWE is a better role model then John Cena.

If you hate his Five moves of death then fine, but he does those moves so well. He has had some of the best feuds in WWE examples Randy Orton, HHH, and Brock Lesnar. He makes almost everybody look good even when he wins. For you people that hate the FU it may not look impressive when its done to Y2J but when done to Big Show before his massive weight loss that's impressive.

If you like a heel boo them if heels getting booed means there doing there job right. Faces should be cheered because the want to get cheered that's why there faces.

 

[Miko]

Uh, no? If Cena was anywhere near The Rock,Hogan or Austin; he would draw much more than 3.3. You want numbers? During the attitude era, thanks to Rock and Austin, RAW drew in the 6.0 mark and above. You wanted proof? That's your proof, so Cena is nowhere near either man's level in terms of drawing power or popularity. And don't say Austin and Rock were not the only reason the show drew that much because you've already claimed in an earlier post that guys like Rock and Austin were carrying the company on their shoulders because the rest of the show sucked, so you'd be contradicting yourself.

That was me who said that actually, it's not ammunition to use against Cena though, as I said in the post, he's not a boom starter, he's not the guy who made wrestling popular (Hogan), he's not the guy who made wrestling popular again (Austin) and he aint the guy that exceeded the popularity of Austin (The Rock).

I would put him closer to Bret Hart, not wrestling wise as they wrestle completely different styles but Bret was the one guy pre-attitude era that could be depended on to keep the company's head above water. He'll be remembered up there with Hogan, Austin and The Rock, so there is every reason that Cena will be too and rightfully so.

Lies, The Rock never drew 3's. The Rocks best years were running behind Stone Cold. John Cena is the face of this company, The Rock was never the Face of the WWE. That goes to Austin. You talked about wrestling in the late 90's and early 2000's Austin was one of the first people that came to mind.

Austin was the face of the attitude era no doubt about it, however he played very little part in WWE's most successful year, that was all The Rock.

During the Attitude Era when Raw was drawing 6's the WWE was a better product. They had better stars, They had a Taker in his prime, they had Austin, The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar etc etc, and shit they even had a stellar mid card. That is something they dont have today.

The only 2 people in that list that arent cancelled out are Austin and The Rock, Taker is in the shape of his life and arguably draw's better now than he ever did, HHH cancel's himself out, Kurt Angle cancels himself out right up until the day he left, Cena's better than Lesnar. Couple that with the rise of Randy Orton, Edge and The Hardy's as single's competitors and today's product is probably better overall than the attitude era.

 

[Kyphael]

Cena is not bland, in your smarky opinion he is though.

Cena is bland and in your opinion he is not.

The older fans don't want to watch the product, no matter who is in the company. How can you put the blame soley on John Cena? Ever thought of the booking may have something to do with the decrease in ratings? And I said Cena is nearly at the level or Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold in terms of being the best in the business. Hence the word nearly. And if Cena appeals to women and children, then how come a 17 year old teenager like myself likes Cena, and I'm sure I'm not the only one?

I beg to differ. I think older fans might want to watch WWE again if the product was not stale. Why else would ratings bump higher than usual during anniversary shows when older stars are advertised to appear? I’m not solely blaming Cena for the drop in viewership, he is a product as I already said so the blame goes vicarious to creative without saying. Cena isn’t writing the shows, so of course he isn’t to blame, but as you have said, he is the face of the WWE so in the eyes of fans who don’t know the entire backstage goings on; he is the man to flame.

No, smarks are ignorant for cheering heels and booing babyfaces, please pay attention. If I take pro wrestling so seriously, then why are you debating with me then? Obviously you do to. I am NOT a sheep. Some of my favourite wrestlers are Randy Orton and Chris Jericho, but I'd still boo them because they are arrogant assholes and that's their job! I'm not the "ideal" fan. I'm just merely pointing out to you that John Cena is the best entertainer in the business today. Is that so hard to understand?

Cheering for who we want to and booing for who we want to don’t make me “ignorant”, it means I have a voice and an opinion to go with it. I don’t agree Cena is the best entertainer in the business today because he doesn’t entertain me. Guys like Orton, Jericho and Edge and Undertaker entertain me. You may think Jericho is an “arrogant asshole” but when I hear his promos, I can relate to his character a lot when he flames the crowd, because he is flaming people like you for blindly jumping on Cena’s bandwagon. We’re on different sides of the face.

Who the fuck even cares if his promos are scripted or not? Because that doesn't change the fact they are the best ones in the entire WWE today.

I don’t, I was just pointing out they are because you foolishly asked me to prove they are not when anybody that frequents the boards with half knowledge of how the business works can tell you they are indeed scripted. Either you didn’t know or you speculated for no apparent reason.

Once again, I've never mentioned that I love him but I'm just saying that he's the best there is today. What is so hard to understand?

No, I can’t understand. Are you so narrow-minded? You’re trying to pass your opinion off as FACT. I don’t think Cena is the best there is today, because he does not entertain me! Why should I think otherwise just because you’re telling me? It’s a matter of opinion! I don’t care how much money he’s making, he’s not my employee! I’m just a fan buying tickets and ordering PPV’s. I know what I like and what I don’t like, and what I don’t like is the way Cena is booked. I understand he was booked a bit better this year, but I don’t see that happening in the upcoming year, only because I doubt WWE will have him lose to Batista at Wrestlemania, which means Cena will hold onto the title at least until Wrestlemania and given how much his past long reigns bored me, that grinds my gears in knowing. Thank God Edge is champion over on SmackDown.

I attacked them because they booed MULTIPLE babyfaces and cheered MULTIPLE heels. Not just John Cena. Correct! I will stop at nothing until all smarks are converted.

SO WHAT? They’re booing and cheering for who THEY want and as consumers, it is their right and no one has the right to tell them any different. You’re a foolish asshole for even trying.

All heels are anti-heroes, so what is your point!

I don’t think you know what an anti-hero is. Tdigle already posted explaining the difference between what can be perceived as an anti-hero and an outright hero so I won’t even bother repeating what has already been explained. Just read his post and you will see an anti-hero is not necessary the villain. To put it clearly, Stone Cold Steve Austin would be considered an anti-hero, because he did the right thing, albeit in questionable ways, while Hogan, a hero always did things to the book.

Let's see, the WWE has millions of fans and only a few of those crowds truly hated Cena. So I'd say I'm about right with my initial comment. Like I said, even if people do hate Cena's character it really doesn't matter to the WWE as he is still their top superstar. But it does disrespect Cena himself. Hopefully he is more edgier from now on, just so people like you can stop your mindless bashing.

Yeah, making him “slightly” edgier won’t make me love him because in my opinion, he has always been aggressive. Maybe he became less aggressive when drafted to RAW to be more like the hero archetype Hogan once portrayed, but a sudden short of aggression to an otherwise, bland character doesn’t make him great. It makes him look possessed, like The Incredible Hulk, so you now WWE has a raving psychopathic character on their hands who goes from sucking up to the crowd one second to destroying his opponents the next.

Well if you hate all heroes, then you are certainly a unique individual. But I hope you realize that without these heroes, there wouldn't be any heels for you to "love".

Yeah and I’m not trying to purge the world of heroes, this is all fiction anyway. I’m just hoping heroes can be written better so I don’t have to grind my teeth every time one of them opens their mouth.

Undertaker almost always looks dominant. Hence the word "almost". Ever heard of 16-0?

In case you didn’t know, Wrestlemania isn’t a weekly PPV, it’s an annual event so all 16-0 means is, he has won at least once a year in the last sixteen years. I know Undertaker is booked dominantly, more so now than ever, but you have to understand his character is meant to be super natural, whereas (I think I already explained this, damnit) Cena is presented as a normal man but he is booked as if he were indestructible at times. Again, I understand he lost this year but the manner of which they had him return from injury and beat the champion who was on a roll cleanly, then destroy him the next night makes him look indestructible all over again. Character development isn’t making him look weak one day, then a few days later and BAM, he’s invincible again. It needs to be gradual to look believable. Despite his past losses this year, his ridiculously strong return unraveled the less invincible Cena character created. I have no problem with Cena succeeding, he has to, he’s the hero but again, in a gradual, believable way. It would have made perfect sense for Jericho to somehow manage to retain the title at Survivor Series by snaking his way to a victory, giving WWE a month to build Cena up to Jericho’s level and have him go over at Armageddon.

Um, yes that would be a perfect world. The faces and heels have their separate roles and being either completely booed or completely cheered would be a dream come true for them.

Yes, a man once had a vision of a perfect world as well and his name was Adolf Hitler. Extreme comparison, I know, but you are so adamant about convincing “smarks” to cheer heroes and boo villains that it’s scary.

World Wrestling Entertainment. I'd say the WWE has something to do with wrestling Oh, and Cena has nothing left to overcome does he? How about losing his title? That's like saying HBK, Triple H and the Undertaker have nothing left to gain. You're just talking out of your ass now. Once again, the one week he goes nuts and gets the upper hand you say "Cena looked so dominant on Raw". It was one fricken week! Get over it. That's why the feud has started out in a unique but fresh way, not to mention Cena had a little bit of a more "edgier" style which is what you so badly want despite still bashing it. Hypocrite.

Wrestling is in the name but considering it is all scripted and outcomes are pre-determined, it’s more entertainment than it is wrestling. Wrestling is considered a sport, WWE is anything but. I am not trying to discredit their athleticism, they are athletes, but they are also actors. You and I both know Cena won’t lose the title any time soon. The pre-determined main event for Wrestlemania is Batista vs. John Cena. I’m not criticizing the Cena character for this past week alone, only because I know this is the trend that will follow for months to come. Cena will continue to most likely than not, be booked as invincible, which makes for very piss poor television.

 

[Slyfox696]

SO WHAT? They’re booing and cheering for who THEY want and as consumers, it is their right and no one has the right to tell them any different. You’re a foolish asshole for even trying.

Wrong.

It is not their right, it is their privilege, a privilege that has been extended to them by the WWE. Unfortunately, too many people abuse that privilege, which is why you have people who criticize those who boo faces and cheer heels, just to be cool.

Let's put it this way. You buy three tickets to a performance of Romeo and Juliet. When Juliet kills herself, if you were to stand up and start cheering wildly, you'd be thrown out of the theater on your ass. Why? Because you are ruining the show for others.

It's the same thing at a WWE show, except that the WWE is a lot more forgiving of its fans being idiots.

Yes, a man once had a vision of a perfect world as well and his name was Adolf Hitler. Extreme comparison, I know, but you are so adamant about convincing “smarks” to cheer heroes and boo villains that it’s scary.

I have no idea what this argument entails, but you have now officially lost.

Godwin's Law dictates it as being so.

 

[Kyphael]

So you pretty much support the idealism of telling people how to react and what to like. The WWE product, unlike a play, any play, ENCOURAGES their fanbase to be loud, otherwise the matches the athletes put on become stale. The product relies on fan interaction, albeit positive or negative. They don't care as long as the crowd reacts. What they do not specify or entail when you purchase a ticket, which would be pretty stupid when you think about it, is you must follow the status quo, meaning you must boo the bad guys and cheer the good guys. Can you imagine the ticket seller advising you to read the small print at the bottom of the ticket to notify you must follow the status quo? Or even WWE security escorting fans out by the droves. Now I understand you find it logical for us to boo the bad guys and cheer the good guys, but not everyone shares that mentality.

If WWE were to start throwing people out on their ass for reacting in a manner they do not like or expect, as long as it doesn't mean hopping over the railing and interrupting a match, how does it look for them as a company? They would lose money and drive a fanbase away. Even if "smarks" aren't the ideal fans WWE would like, they still buy tickets, video games and occasionally order PPV's. That is all more money in their pocket book. It's all about the almighty dollar, isn't it? That's why Cena is on top and that's why Cena supporters believe he is the best; he makes money. Now if the WWE were to alienate an entire fanbase (smarks) just for jeering a character they do not like, they would lose money. Is that even a smart move from a business stand point?

Should WWE really alienate an entire fanbase? Even though there are others within the business itself that recognizes there are certain aspects of it that are predictable and need improvement? Or should they, from time to time try something fresh and new to switch things around and keep the fans interested in their product, which at times becomes pretty stale (IE: Cena's dominance) opposed to turning people away?

 

[Slyfox696]

So you pretty much support the idealism of telling people how to react and what to like.

No, I support the theory of the fans being a part of the product, and not trying to be above it. For what reason could you possibly cheer someone who cheap shots people, tries to end their careers, and tells fans to go fuck themselves (in a manner of speaking)? If it was a real life fighter, people would hate him. So why do you cheer Randy Orton in wrestling?

The answer is because you want to prove that you know more about wrestling than you really do. And I don't have time nor the patience to put up with people who seem to think I give a damn about how smart they are to the business.

The WWE product, unlike a play, any play, ENCOURAGES their fanbase to be loud, otherwise the matches the athletes put on become stale.

They also ENCOURAGE their fans to cheer for the good guys and boo the bad guys.

So, if you want to use this as your argument, you need to consider your hypocrisy.

The product relies on fan interaction, albeit positive or negative. They don't care as long as the crowd reacts.

You don't think that Chris Jericho wants people to boo him, or that Rey Mysterio wants people to cheer him?

What they do not specify or entail when you purchase a ticket, which would be pretty stupid when you think about it, is you must follow the status quo, meaning you must boo the bad guys and cheer the good guys.

No, they don't demand it. But, it is certainly implied, and has been for decades. Only since fans became idiots...ahem, smarks...did this become a problem.

Or even WWE security escorting fans out by the droves.

I wish they would. That would make the show better for those of us who understand the TRUE meaning of fan interaction in wrestling. Unlike people like you, who think that laying down $45 means you can act like an idiot.

Now I understand you find it logical for us to boo the bad guys and cheer the good guys, but not everyone shares that mentality.

Yes, and it is those people who have totally missed the point as to what professional wrestling is all about.

 

[klunderbunker]

The way I see it, wrestlers are like actors in a movie or on tv. It is their job to convince someone else that they are evil or good or whatever, much like wrestlers. Take Emperor Palpatine in the Star Wars series for example. He is meant to be the most evil creature in existence. The actor's who plays him is determined to be successful as an actor in how many people dislike him or are afraid of him because he is accomplishing the goal the writer/director set forth for him. However there's always fans that think those characters a re awesome, no matter how evil they are. Do you think the filmakers are catering to them? Very little, if any.

Very similar to wrestling. Yes there are people that hate Cena, but if you think Vince cares about what that small amount of fans thinks, you're nothing but delusional. Wrestling is simple for the most part. There are faces and heels, good guys and bad guys. Their job is to get people to cheer or boo them accordingly. John Cena is the biggest face there is in WWE today. It is his job to go out and make as many fans as happy as he can, and he does this almost to perfection. Love him or hate him, there is absolutely no question that he gets some of the biggest reactions of the night no matter what he's doing. That to me says that Cena is one of if not the best in the business today.