The Dragon Ball Z Thread

[Барбоса]

How far outclassed Vegeta was by Fat Buu suggests to me that SSJ2 Trunks would have no chance against Buu. Even with a significant power drain due to a poor hatching process, I am not convinced that Trunks would have the power to destroy Buu's body. Majin SSJ2 Vegeta didn't and seemingly neither did SSJ3 Goku.

Of course, that depends on how much of Buu's durability is tied up in his power level.

 

[Bernkastel]

He wasn't twice as strong as a SSJ2 in general, however, he was just twice as strong as Gohan SSJ2 who was significantly weaker than he was 7 years prior. He was also significantly weaker than both Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2. So I think if Trunks continued his training and reached SSJ2(which he was close to already) he could be a match for Fat Buu.

According to statements that Toriyama has made in the past he imagines SSJ3 to be roughly 4 times as powerful as a SSJ2. Fat Buu could hold his own with SSJ3 Goku and was easily more powerful than SSJ2 Vegeta. Trunks would have had to have reached SSJ3 in order to be a match for Fat Buu. Even Mr. Buu, the weakest form of Buu shown in the series, should be well above SSJ2.

Also the measurements that Babidi was using to determine how much energy Buu needed to be revived were not viable, as when Buu was revived Babidi wasn't sure if his calculations were correct.

 

[SSJPhenom]

How far outclassed Vegeta was by Fat Buu suggests to me that SSJ2 Trunks would have no chance against Buu. Even with a significant power drain due to a poor hatching process, I am not convinced that Trunks would have the power to destroy Buu's body. Majin SSJ2 Vegeta didn't and seemingly neither did SSJ3 Goku.

Of course, that depends on how much of Buu's durability is tied up in his power level.

SSJ3 Goku, IMO, was far more powerful than Fat Buu. He was holding back significantly. Goku says as much on more than one occasion. Piccolo asks him why he didn't try at SSJ3 to beat Buu and before his fight with Kid Buu he says he could've defeated Fat Buu. So I don't buy SSJ3 as a way to measure Fat Buu's power.

I think that Future Trunks could train enough after reaching SSJ2 to match Fat Buu at least. Especially with him being the only one left. He'll push himself far beyond where he was at the end of the Cell Games.

 

[SSJPhenom]

According to statements that Toriyama has made in the past he imagines SSJ3 to be roughly 4 times as powerful as a SSJ2. Fat Buu could hold his own with SSJ3 Goku and was easily more powerful than SSJ2 Vegeta. Trunks would have had to have reached SSJ3 in order to be a match for Fat Buu. Even Mr. Buu, the weakest form of Buu shown in the series, should be well above SSJ2.

Also the measurements that Babidi was using to determine how much energy Buu needed to be revived were not viable, as when Buu was revived Babidi wasn't sure if his calculations were correct.

Again, IMO, Fat Buu held his own with SSJ3 Goku because Goku was only trying to distract him. He was holding back significantly.

The meter that judged how much energy Buu had absorbed was not wrong. After Gohan's energy was injected, Buu was at half power. That was severely weakened SSJ2 Gohan who wasn't even as strong as he was as a kid. Again, SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta were even stronger than Gohan was against Cell. I really don't think that Fat Buu is that much stronger than a SSJ2.

 

[Барбоса]

I really don't think that Fat Buu is that much stronger than a SSJ2.

Why not? The evidence in fights suggests otherwise. Even the weakest Buu made complete mincemeat of a boosted SSJ2 Vegeta. So much so that Vegeta blew himself up.

SSJ2 Trunks would face an even worse beating.

 

[Bernkastel]

Again, IMO, Fat Buu held his own with SSJ3 Goku because Goku was only trying to distract him. He was holding back significantly.

The meter that judged how much energy Buu had absorbed was not wrong. After Gohan's energy was injected, Buu was at half power. That was severely weakened SSJ2 Gohan who wasn't even as strong as he was as a kid. Again, SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta were even stronger than Gohan was against Cell. I really don't think that Fat Buu is that much stronger than a SSJ2.

I'd say that would be false logic as evidence supports Fat Buu > Kid Buu. Only in the anime does it make references to Kid Buu getting weaker after absorbing the Kais. He actually became more powerful. The manga does make a reference to Goku making the statement that he maybe could have defeated Fat Buu, but I don't think he had any idea what Fat Buu's true power was. As he stated the same thing about Kid Buu, and promptly lost anyway. Vegeta too, was baffled by Goku losing to Kid Buu. Makes me ponder that maybe Majin Buu can hide his ki even easier than the saiyans and human can.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Why not? The evidence in fights suggests otherwise. Even the weakest Buu made complete mincemeat of a boosted SSJ2 Vegeta. So much so that Vegeta blew himself up.

Was that because Buu was so much stronger or because he could regenerate after every attack. It seemed to me that in the Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu battle, Buu let Vegeta wear himself out and then went on the offensive. Vegeta blew himself up because he thought he had to destroy every bit of Buu.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I'd say that would be false logic as evidence supports Fat Buu > Kid Buu. Only in the anime does it make references to Kid Buu getting weaker after absorbing the Kais. He actually became more powerful. The manga does make a reference to Goku making the statement that he maybe could have defeated Fat Buu, but I don't think he had any idea what Fat Buu's true power was. As he stated the same thing about Kid Buu, and promptly lost anyway. Vegeta too, was baffled by Goku losing to Kid Buu. Makes me ponder that maybe Majin Buu can hide his ki even easier than the saiyans and human can.

If Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu, why couldn't he beat Kid Buu when they fought?

 

[Барбоса]

I would say both. Buu had the power to embarrass Vegeta and the durability to withstand everything he had with ease. Buu was not in any danger.

SSJ3 had the power to dole out damage to Buu, much in a similar way that an ASSJ could deal serious damage to Perfect Cell, but the likelihood is that again like Cell, Buu was not going to stand around and let Gotenks or Goku power up an attack capable of hurting him to any great degree.

Both Cell and Buu facing the Saiyans does raise the issue that having the raw power to defeat someone does not mean you will. Cell's speed and regeneration nullified ASSJ and Buu's ridiculous durability allowed him to deal with SSJ3.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Idk. It just seemed to me that Buu was actually getting his ass kicked when he fought Majin Vegeta. Sure, Buu was able to deal with Vegeta but only after Vegeta had worn himself out. I think had Buu not been able to regenerate, Vegeta would've stopped him right there. My evidence for this is the way Kid Buu dealt with Vegeta. Kid Buu didn't stand around and get beat up by Vegeta. Even though he could regenerate just as well as Fat Buu. He had the power to make Vegeta look like nothing and he did.

 

[Bernkastel]

If Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu, why couldn't he beat Kid Buu when they fought?

That was not Fat Buu. That was Mr. Buu. From where Fat Buu split his essence into two separate beings. A purely good Majin Buu and a purely evil Majin Buu. The purely evil Majin Buu was stated and shown to be much stronger than Mr. Buu.

 

[SSJPhenom]

That was not Fat Buu. That was Mr. Buu. From where Fat Buu split his essence into two separate beings. A purely good Majin Buu and a purely evil Majin Buu. The purely evil Majin Buu was stated and shown to be much stronger than Mr. Buu.

So then by your logic, Super Buu was only just as powerful as Fat Buu?

 

[Bernkastel]

So then by your logic, Super Buu was only just as powerful as Fat Buu?

No. Fat Buu = Kid Buu + The Kai's

When Fat Buu separated his essences they became the Good Mr. Buu [representing Kai influence] and the Evil Grey Buu [representing Kid Buu influence.] Gray Buu absorbed Mr. Buu.

Super Buu equals fat Good Buu [Kai influence] x thin Evil Buu [Kid Buu influence.] Or in theory Super Buu = Kid Buu x The Kai's.

The one piece of storytelling logic that I especially did not like is why the thin Grey Buu appeared and not Kid Buu. They represent the same thing and should be equal in power.

 

[SSJPhenom]

So you're saying that Kid Buu is weaker than Fat Buu? How can that be when Goku himself said that he could've beaten Fat Buu if he'd tried? I understand your logic, however, it was never implied in the manga or anime that Buu lost power when Evil Buu split from him.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #8: Gokhan or Vegito?​

Hey there DBZ fans! I'm here to bring you another DBZ topic for us to discuss. With this topic, I want to explore what would've happened had Gohan not lost the potara earring when Goku threw it to him and they actually fused. I also want to discuss who would've been stronger out of Vegito or Gokhan.

So if Gohan had of caught the earring and put it on and they fused into Gokhan(that's what I'm calling him) they would've made an extremely powerful warrior. With Gohan's new power as Ultimate Gohan and Goku's normal abilities, Gokhan would've been able to take out Buutenks without even turning into a SSJ. As with Vegito, however, Gokhan would've probably tried to get absorbed to save Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo. So after getting absorbed, they would've split inside Buu just like Goku and Vegeta had. The difference, however, would've been that after Goku and Gohan detached Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo; Gohan would've been able to handle Super Buu easily and if Mr. Buu somehow got detached as well, Gohan would've been able to handle Kid Buu also. Earth wouldn't have gotten destroyed and they never would've gone to the planet of the Kais. The only thing I see being a drawback is if this would've happened, Vegeta wouldn't have been brought back and maybe not wished back. Unless they journeyed to New Namek to wish back those who had already been wished back by Earth's Dragon Balls before.

How strong would Gokhan have been though? Gohan was the most powerful warrior out of the Z Fighters at this point and of course Goku was 2nd. Its safe to say Gokhan would've been extremely powerful, but would he have been stronger than Vegito? Gohan was much stronger than Vegeta, however, Gohan's fusion with Goku wouldn't have been that complete fusion that the Old Kai referred to for Goku and Vegeta.

Would Gohan's power have made up for that? Is the complete fusion theory that big of a deal? What would Gokhan have been like as a warrior? What do you think would've happened had Goku and Gohan fused? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Bernkastel]

So you're saying that Kid Buu is weaker than Fat Buu? How can that be when Goku himself said that he could've beaten Fat Buu if he'd tried? I understand your logic, however, it was never implied in the manga or anime that Buu lost power when Evil Buu split from him.

Goku did state it, but I don't think he had any clue what the extent of Fat Buu's power actually was. He thought pretty confidently, Vegeta did too, that he could have easily defeated Kid Buu, but he overestimated his own power. I am under the impression that the manga made it clear that when Kid Buu absorbed the Kai's he did gain power but at the same time lost his uncontrollable temperament. Only in the dubbed anime is it stated that Kid Buu > Fat and Super Buu, which of course makes no sense.

Fat Buu definitely split himself into two separate beings. I have no idea why the Good Majin Buu kept the Fat Buu form and why the Evil Majin Buu didn't take the Kid Buu form. Lazy writing I guess. But the whole reason why the Z Fighters didn't off Good Buu at the end of the saga is that they recognized him as being a totally different entity than before.

Ultimately I'd say Fat Buu > Kid Buu, but only a little bit. Like Super Buu compared to Piccolo Buu. Piccolo Buu is stronger, but only by a slim margin.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #9: Who's The Strongest Human?​

Hey there DBZ faithful! I'm bringing yet another DBZ topic for us to discuss and hopefully you guys will participate with this one. When it comes to DBZ, the most popular thing to discuss are usually the Saiyans. That's perfectly fine because let's face facts, the Saiyans are pretty damn cool. Today, I don't want to talk about the Saiyans. With this topic, we're going to discuss the Humans from DBZ and which one of them is the strongest.

NOTE: I'm not including Uub in this discussion because he's hands down the most powerful human.

When Dragon Ball first started, everyone was pretty close to one another in power. The power levels weren't that high so everyone was able to inflict damage on just about anyone they fought. For example: When Yamcha fought Tien in the World's Martial Arts Tournament, Yamcha was actually able to keep up with Tien and make the fight competitive even though Tien was ultimately stronger. Same goes for when Krillin fought Goku in that same tournament. In Dragon Ball, battles were determined more by skill than by power and that is what I loved about Dragon Ball. At the start of DBZ, everyone still remained relevant and were able to affect battles and what not. I'd say all that changed after the Frieza saga and the introduction of the Super Saiyan. After that, it became all about the Saiyans. Piccolo was the only non Saiyan Z Fighter able to remain relevant and even that faded after the Androids.

So who's the strongest human in DBZ? Well, Chiatzu is out. He's been weak since his introduction. Yamcha is also out because his first battle in DBZ ended with him being killed by a Siabaman. Yamcha became so much of a joke that in Team Four Star's DBZ Abridged, when someone dies they call it getting Yamchaed. So that pretty much leaves Krillin and Tien. Before Tien died fighting Nappa, he was hands down stronger than Krillin, but not by much. When Krillin went to Namek, his power level was only at about 1500, however, he had his full potential unlocked by Guru and that instantly made him the strongest human by far. There's a theory that Guru's potential unlock kept gradually making Krillin stronger and stronger as time went on. The evidence for this theory is that when Ginyu was in Goku's body, his power was at 23,000. Krillin was able to out match Ginyu at that power level. He wasn't that strong before hand. Also, while they were fighting Frieza, Vegeta said that Krillin and Gohan's power was rising with every attack. While Krillin was on Namek, Tien was training with King Kai. There is no telling how strong he got from that training, however, in a filler episode for the anime, the dead members of the Ginyu force arrived on King Kai's planet and Tien was able to defeat Burter and Jeice. If you consider that, then Tien was pretty powerful. After Namek, Krillin never really had anymore note worthy feats. Tien, however, had a couple of note worthy feats. Tien was able to keep Semi Perfect Cell at bay with his Tri Beam long enough for Androids 16 and 18 to escape. Also, he was able to deflect an energy attack from Buutenks. When Krillin tried to fight Semi Perfect Cell to protect #18, his punches did nothing. Taking what they've both done into consideration. I'd have to say that Tien is the strongest of the humans in DBZ.

What do you guys think? Am I completely wrong? Which do you think is the strongest human and why? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Барбоса]

The only argument that might see Tien not ranked as the strongest non-Uub human, is what exactly do you class the Androids as.

Technically they would seem to be more cyborgs than androids and therefore partially human - well at least, 19 and 20 were while it is mentioned that 17 and 18 were originally fully human (and 18 was able to have children). 16 seemed to be more or an android.

Could Tien have defeated any of them? I doubt it.

And how about Olibu? He seemed to be at a high level in the Other World Tournament, although it is not known for certain if he is human.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Definitely brings up several other questions. I know I don't have much of a point of reference, but I can't imagine Tien or Krillin defeating Android 18 even at her post-Cell human self. On an even playing field, I'd rather put money on 18. Maybe it's just the attitude.

Edit: You know what? Scratch that. It's Chi Chi. Nobody fucks with Chi Chi.

 

[Bernkastel]

I'd classify the Androids as humans. 18 was able to conceive and birth a child and that's enough evidence for me. Toriyama recently released their "human" names in an interview as being Lapis [17] and Lazuli [18] meaning "stone" and blue" for the reference of their eye color. If we're going off manga evidence then I'd say 17 reigns supreme if we're discounting Uub, as he's slightly stronger than 18.

I don't think Tien could have killed either 17 or 18 in the Cell saga when he was going all out. He probably could have dealt some serious damage, but I don't think could outright kill either of them. And we have no idea how powerful Buu saga Tien is in comparison, when Buu KO'ed him immediately after no selling his Tri Beam.

However if we're going off the anime then things, not surprisingly, get wonky with the anime filler. In the Buu saga Yamcha was shown effortlessly defeating Olibu and another fighter at the same time.

Spoiler

[youtube]TRErOvknMVg[/youtube]

The same Olibu that gave Pikkon a good fight. The same Pikkon who dispatched Super Perfect Cell and one shot KO'ed Frieza without ever using full power. This puts anime Krillin and Yamcha solidly around ASSJ Vegeta. Most likely higher. Which of course makes no sense when in the Tournament it was established that 18 > Krillin. And Krillin > Yamcha. So why Yamcha would suddenly be able to easily take someone that should have been able to easily beat 18 I have no idea.

So discounting Uub I'd say strongest humans in the manga are 17 and 18. In the anime it would likely be Tien as he's always been shown to be superior to Krillin and Yamcha. Olibu was revealed to have been once a human, but since Yamcha fucked him over in the fillers, he wouldn't be in the running. And neither would the Androids... somehow...

 

[SSJPhenom]

IMO, if you classify the androids as humans, then you'd have to classify the part Saiyans as human too. That would mean that Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Bra would be classified as human. That makes Gohan the most powerful human in that case.

I don't consider Androids 17, 18, and 20 as humans. They may have been at one point, however, they aren't anymore. Whats more is that the Androids power didn't come from training or hard work like the other humans power did. They were enhanced with power sources. I don't consider them human at all.

 

[Bernkastel]

IMO, if you classify the androids as humans, then you'd have to classify the part Saiyans as human too. That would mean that Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Bra would be classified as human. That makes Gohan the most powerful human in that case.

I don't consider Androids 17, 18, and 20 as humans. They may have been at one point, however, they aren't anymore. Whats more is that the Androids power didn't come from training or hard work like the other humans power did. They were enhanced with power sources. I don't consider them human at all.

I suppose I can agree from that perspective. Considering that the Androids have a fixed power base that won't ever change. 18 can theoretically do all the training she could want and never see results. But the opposite is true as well. Meaning she doesn't have to ever lift a finger and still be more powerful than a super saiyan. While that definitely can't be said for the humans or saiyans that don't have cybernetic enhancements. From that standpoint I'd say Tien is the strongest. In the manga at least. Probably anime too, seeing how hilariously inconsistent the fillers are.

 

[kris8524]

Toriyama himself said krillin is the strongest pure human.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Toriyama himself said krillin is the strongest pure human.

I remember when he said that, however, he said that because he didn't know what to consider Tien at the time. With him having three eyes, he didn't know whether he was going to call Tien a human or not. Since then, it has been stated that Tien is a human who is a descendant from the Three Eye Clan of monks and that he is the strongest pure human.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #10: Which Is The Most Powerful Race?​

Hello again DBZ fans. Its yours truly again bringing yet another DBZ topic for us to discuss and I think this one will be a good one. Out of all of the different races of the various characters in the Dragon Ball universe; which race is the most powerful?

We have several different races within the Dragon Ball universe. There's the Humans, the Saiyans, the Namekians, the Kais, Frieza's race, and etc. Idk, whether we can consider the Androids a race or not. If we do, they could very well be the most powerful race. What I'm looking for is the most naturally powerful race. For example, the Saiyans aren't necessarily the most powerful race. Yes they grew to become very powerful, however, it took years of hard work and training. I'd say the Saiyans are the race with the most potential. Saiyans actually start out quite weak. So do Humans and Namekians for that matter. When it comes to natural strength that is common among all in the race, I'd say that it would either come down to Frieza's race or the Kais. We know from Revival of F that Frieza's power display from his battles on Namek was something that he'd been born with. He never trained a day in his life. When he finally did train for 4 months, he was initially stronger than Goku in SSGSS form. When you think about it, that's amazing. However, I remember the Supreme Kai saying that the Supreme Kais of the past were all each much more powerful than Frieza.

I'm not going to give my opinion just yet on this one. What do you guys think? Which race do you believe is the most powerful and why? Let me know your opinions.