The Dragon Ball Z Thread

[SSJPhenom]

I don't get how anyone can say Gogeta was more Goku-dominant than Vegito as all the arguments are ambiguous.

Sure, Vegeta can be the arrogant time-waster, toying with his opponent, which is seen in Vegito but he is also a completely ruthless killer, something that Gogeta definitely embraces in his defeat of Janemba.

As for Goku, while he is frequently the ultimate victor, he is also a complete clown and at times has strange ideas on strategy - not fighting Pre-Perfect Cell, not giving his all against Majin Buu - and can be unwilling to kill - Vegeta, Ginyu Force, Frieza.

And again, you have to take into account the circumstances of the fights Gogeta and Vegito had. Gogeta was just out to destroy Janemba and undo all of the damage his creation had wrought.

Vegito was not trying to destroy Buu. He was looking for a way to save his sons and friends, meaning he was holding back and the seeming Vegeta-led arrogant toying (which could easily be Goku's clowning) was a joint decision.

I get your point and I somewhat agree with you, however, there's more evidence to consider in this argument.

While Vegito was ultimately toying with Buuhan to save his sons and Piccolo, its the way he toyed with Buuhan that leads me to believe he's a Vegeta dominant personality. The first thing Vegito said after fusing was, " Alright". Then while SHOWING OFF HIS MOVES, something Goku doesn't do, he said, "Would you look at me. I'm breaking records". How often does Goku brag about his strength? Vegito also said, "I was a little worried about the 2 of us sharing a body but it looks like everything turned out ok". As I recall, Goku wanted to fuse and Vegeta didn't. Also, when Buuhan used a smoke screen to hide from Vegito and told him he couldn't hit what he couldn't see; Vegito said, "You villains never really take true pride in your fighting skills". How often does Goku go on about pride? There are several more examples like these that show a more Vegeta based personality.

As for Gogeta, after fusing correctly he says, "I'm neither Goku nor Vegeta. I'm Gogeta! Its over Janemba". Doesn't that sound like a Goku line? Gogeta didn't brag about his strength or skills. He just got the job done. Plus, when he was Fat Gogeta, he acted so much like Goku that it was ridiculous.

I still think Vegito is Vegeta dominant and Gogeta is Goku dominant.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #4: Cell A Super Saiyan?​

Hey DBZ fans. Yet again I return to you with another DBZ topic for us to discuss. This particular topic is about a theory of mine that I've had for a long time. I've been debating this topic with different DBZ fans for years and I'd like to see what you guys think. Its simple; was Cell a Super Saiyan?

We all know that Cell is a being created from the cells of the greatest fighters on Earth. He has cells from humans Krillin and Tien, cells from namekian Piccolo, cells from Frieza and King Cold, and, most notably, cells from saiyans Nappa, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku. Cell shows traits from all of his donors, but, IMO, he shows more traits from the saiyans then any other donor species.

There are several things that leads me to believe that Cell was a SSJ. The most important of those, however, is the fact that Cell continuously had the trademark SSJ golden aura around him. Even when he wasn't powering up or using much energy he had that aura. Another reason I believe cell was a SSJ is that when he was explaining the weakness of USSJ to Trunks, he demonstrated that he could also use the same transformation. Also, when Cell came back as Super Perfect Cell, he had the golden aura and the bolts of electric energy bouncing off of him as well. Which leads me to believe that he could've very well been a SSJ2.

It can't be said that Cell didn't have enough Saiyan DNA. He had more Saiyan cells than any other race/species. Also, as I said before, he exhibited more Saiyan traits than anything else. For example: He loved to test his strength, he loved a good battle, he needed to become stronger, and he got stronger after recovering from near death. So, IMO, it should be easy to call Cell a Super Saiyan.

What do you guys think? Was Cell a SSJ or am I crazy? If he wasn't a SSJ then how did he exhibit so many SSJ like traits? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Барбоса]

To me, all of that evidence continues to be ambiguous, applicable to both Vegeta and Goku. Getting intentionally absorbed by Buu definitely sounds like a hair-brained scheme Goku would have come up with too.

On top of that, Gogeta is not around anywhere near enough to say what kind of personality he had. All he shows is a ruthlessness that would seem to be more Vegeta than Goku.

 

[SSJPhenom]

To me, all of that evidence continues to be ambiguous, applicable to both Vegeta and Goku. Getting intentionally absorbed by Buu definitely sounds like a hair-brained scheme Goku would have come up with too.

On top of that, Gogeta is not around anywhere near enough to say what kind of personality he had. All he shows is a ruthlessness that would seem to be more Vegeta than Goku.

Did Gogeta show a ruthlessness or was it simply urgency because of the time limit of the fusion dance? Also, how can all that evidence continue to be ambiguous to you? The way Vegito toyed with Buuhan was reminiscent of how Vegeta toyed with Cell after Vegeta came out of the time chamber. Not only did he completely humiliate Buuhan, he belittled Buuhan with trash talk as well. That's just not Goku.

 

[Барбоса]

Did Gogeta show a ruthlessness or was it simply urgency because of the time limit of the fusion dance? Also, how can all that evidence continue to be ambiguous to you? The way Vegito toyed with Buuhan was reminiscent of how Vegeta toyed with Cell after Vegeta came out of the time chamber. Not only did he completely humiliate Buuhan, he belittled Buuhan with trash talk as well. That's just not Goku.

Belittling Buu might be very Vegeta-like (or merely Saiyan) but that one trait does not make him Vegeta-dominant. Vegito could also be said to do his fair bit of clowning around and silly strategising, which is much more like Goku.

Essentially, I am saying that there is not enough clear evidence that either Vegito or Gogeta had a dominant personality.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Belittling Buu might be very Vegeta-like (or merely Saiyan) but that one trait does not make him Vegeta-dominant. Vegito could also be said to do his fair bit of clowning around and silly strategising, which is much more like Goku.

Essentially, I am saying that there is not enough clear evidence that either Vegito or Gogeta had a dominant personality.

I'll agree that there's not enough evidence to prove a dominant personality for Gogeta, however, there's more than enough evidence for Vegito. The only silly strategies he employed was to be intentionally absorbed by Buuhan. His speech pattern and mannerisms were much more Vegeta like then Goku.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #5: Could King Cold Have Defeated The Super Saiyans?​

What's up DBZ fans? I know I just posted a new topic, however, I thought I might do 2 a week from here on out. This topic is one that I've been thinking about for years. Could King Cold have beaten Trunks and/or Goku?

I know what you're thinking. "There's no way King Cold could've beaten Trunks or Goku. If he could've beaten them then why didn't he?" Well hear me out. We all know that Frieza's race has the ability to transform multiple times. At the time of the Frieza Saga there were 3 different transformations of Frieza's race that existed. From what we seen of Frieza's transformations, King Cold was only in the first transformed state, however, from what was said of the Z Fighters while Frieza and King Cold were approaching Earth, King Cold was very close to Mecca Frieza's power level. Some people even believe that King Cold may have been the stronger of the two at that time. So if King Cold was that powerful in the first transformed state, how powerful would he have been in the final transformed state? The only question at this point would be; did King Cold have the ability to transform farther than the first transformed state? If he could then he definitely would've been able to defeat Trunks and Goku. The question now, though, is if he could've transformed farther, why didn't he?

What do you guys think? Did King Cold have the potential to defeat Trunks and Goku? If he would've transformed to the final form, how strong do you think he would've been? Other than he couldn't; do you think there is any reason why King Cold didn't use the other forms? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Dirk]

Yes, he most certainly could have. A lot of DBZ villains are prone to arrogance and a lack of diligence. The heroes never defeat the major villain on the first try, but he's either too arrogant to finish them off, or the dragonballs get used to save them if he did.

Combine that with the plot device of the Saiyans exponentially getting stronger after getting the shit kicked out of them and you have a permanently bruised, but unbeatable hero.

Drama and the continuation of the series override competition between characters, so the formula works.

Another example would be how Vegeta underestimated the Saiyans from Earth and let Nappa and the other one muck about for a bit first. If he just used his Gallick Gun on the Earth from afar instead of doing his little boy prince impression - POOF! Goodbye Earth, goodbye dragonballs and hello most powerful Saiyan at last.

But that would not make for a good story...

 

[Барбоса]

Difficult to say on what King Cold's power might have been. I always tended to think that he was in his son's shadow and therefore likely ultimately weaker. But then I do remember the mention of his power being huge even in 2nd form. However, the sheer ease with which Trunks dispatched Freiza still leads me to believe that the Super Saiyans were in a completely different class to Freiza and Cold.

That said, if you are going to take Revival F into account then had Cold done any training he could easily have outstripped a Super Saiyan.

 

[ABMorales787]

I believe he was at his peak. Keep in mind what happens when Piccolo overpowered Freeza in his second form. Ironically the one Cold resembles. He was mad, but eventually did transform to get the upper hand where as King Cold was scared shitless the moment Trunks blocked his sword. He instantly went into panic, tried to pay off Trunks with planets, then begged for mercy. Not exactly the signs of someone with massive reserves of power stored away. Also, it was stated that in Future Trunks' original time it was Goku who killed the duo with minimal effort meaning Cold fails twice in similar fashion.

As with tradition, Cold and Freeza were just tools to show off just how strong Trunks and Goku became.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I believe he was at his peak. Keep in mind what happens when Piccolo overpowered Freeza in his second form. Ironically the one Cold resembles. He was mad, but eventually did transform to get the upper hand where as King Cold was scared shitless the moment Trunks blocked his sword. He instantly went into panic, tried to pay off Trunks with planets, then begged for mercy. Not exactly the signs of someone with massive reserves of power stored away. Also, it was stated that in Future Trunks' original time it was Goku who killed the duo with minimal effort meaning Cold fails twice in similar fashion.

As with tradition, Cold and Freeza were just tools to show off just how strong Trunks and Goku became.

What about the fact that the Z Fighters said that there were 2 very powerful forces of almost equal strength heading toward Earth?

 

[Blade]

Both Frieza and Cold could've defeated Super Saiyan 1 Goku if they had put their mind to it. We know that the Super Saiyans could destroy a planet if they power up enough, and unleash one of their most devastating blasts. Meanwhile, Frieza and Cold could destroy a planet with a snap of their fingers.

Cold and Frieza both could have beaten Goku if they weren't lazy and arrogant. But it had been so long since they faced a real challenge that they didn't take it seriously enough.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Both Frieza and Cold could've defeated Super Saiyan 1 Goku if they had put their mind to it. We know that the Super Saiyans could destroy a planet if they power up enough, and unleash one of their most devastating blasts. Meanwhile, Frieza and Cold could destroy a planet with a snap of their fingers.

Cold and Frieza both could have beaten Goku if they weren't lazy and arrogant. But it had been so long since they faced a real challenge that they didn't take it seriously enough.

I don't think Frieza could've defeated either Goku or Trunks while they were SSJ. King Cold, however, I don't know whether he was at his peak or if he could've transformed farther. In the manga and original anime, when Frieza and Cold are approaching Earth, the Z Fighters say they sense two enormous powers almost of equal strength. Also in the manga and original anime when Frieza boasts about being the most powerful in the universe, Cold doesn't argue. In DBZ Kai, however, the Z Fighters say that they sense Frieza and someone stronger. Implying that Cold was stronger than Frieza. Its hard to say, however, if Cold did have further transformations he could've defeated Trunks and Goku.

I'm curious; why are you so sure they could've beaten Trunks and Goku?

 

[Blade]

I legitimately think that Frieza is the most naturally powerful character in the DBZ universe, except for Kid Buu. But Frieza never trained. And why would he? He never faced a real challenge in his life until he faced Goku. Hell, Frieza was so lazy and arrogant, he didn't even walk. He went around in his hovercar thing most of the time, didn't he?

With 0 training or preparation, he was just a little weaker than SSJ Goku. Now imagine if Frieza had trained before going to Namek. And his training would be even more intense than Goku's, considering Frieza was stronger to begin with.

Now, I don't know if Frieza's power is theoretically boundless like that of a Saiyan. But I do know that Frieza seemingly never trained a day in his life, and still had incredible power. But what if he wasn't a lazy, arrogant twat? If he trains before facing Goku, or after he's reassembled, who knows how powerful he could've been? He definitely could've beaten Goku, and probably could've beaten Trunks.

The same goes for Vegeta when he first landed on Earth. He'd been in his pod for, what, a year before landing on Earth? That whole time, he was sleeping and dicking around instead of training. Meanwhile, Goku was training non-stop, and barely managed to beat Vegeta. If Vegeta had been training too, he probably would've defeated Goku soundly.

Goku only ever wins because of his own incredible work ethic, and the laziness of the villains. He's ridiculously powerful, but he's also pretty lucky.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Frieza is the most naturally powerful character in DBZ, however, I'm not talking in terms of what if they trained and what not. I'm saying as they were when they landed on Earth, was King Cold at his peak or could he have transformed farther as Frieza had? He appeared to be in 2nd form, so I wonder how strong he would've been if he could've gone to the final form.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #6: What If Buu Appeared In Future Trunks' Time?​

We meet again DBZ fans! Here I am with another DBZ topic for us to discuss. With this topic I'd like to discuss what would happen if Buu showed up in Future Trunks' timeline.

We all know the story of what happened to Future Trunks. Androids 17 and 18 destroyed all of the Z Fighters except for Goku, who died of a heart virus before the Androids were activated, and Gohan, who was the only one to survive a battle with the Androids. Unfortunatly, nobody could be wished back because Piccolo had been killed so the Dragon Balls were inactive. Gohan would continue to battle the Androids over the years while Trunks grew into a young teenager. When Trunks was 13, Gohan took Trunks on as a student and began teaching him how to become a Super Saiyan. Gohan would continue to sporadically battle the Androids while training Trunks. In one such battle Trunks and Gohan were severely injured. Trunks was alright because Gohan gave him a Zenzu Bean, however, Gohan ended up losing an arm in that battle. The next time the Androids surfaced, because of the previous battle still fresh in his mind, Gohan fought them alone. Knocking Trunks out to make sure he wouldn't follow. Unfortunately, when Trunks awoke, he found Gohan dead in the rain. This was the push he needed to finally transform into a Super Saiyan. It would be 3 years before Trunks would face the Androids with his new SSJ powers. When Trunks did finally face the Androids, he was out matched. So after Trunks was defeated yet again; he finally decided to use the time machine that his mother, Bulma, had been working on in order to go back in time to 3 years before the Androids were activated to warn the Z Fighters of their fates.

While Trunks was in the past, he learned a great deal from Goku and his father, Vegeta, and he became quite a bit stronger from his training inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. When he returned to his time, he had become a great deal stronger than the Androids there as well as the Imperfect Cell of his time. The last we see of Future Trunks, he had just destroyed the Androids and Cell of his time. So what would happen to Trunks if Buu showed up in his time?

We know that in the main DBZ timeline Buu showed up 7 years after the Cell Games. Future Trunks was from about 18 years in the future. So why hadn't Buu showed up in Trunks' timeline yet? As Trunks explained, the two timelines are essentially two different dimensions where the events of one would not affect the events of the other. My theory is, because of the presence of the Androids and the turmoil that the Earth was in at the time, Babidi held off on coming to Earth to find Buu. Remember, Buu was already on Earth. He had been buried on Earth for thousands of years because the Earth was Bididi's next target before he was killed by Supreme Kai.

As far as what Trunks could do if Buu appeared in his time, that would depend on when Buu showed up in his time. If Buu appeared right after the Androids were destroyed, then Trunks would stand no chance. If Buu appeared years after the Androids, I think Trunks would at least be able to defeat Majin Buu. Trunks, being the only one left that can defend the Earth in his time, would have to continue training. My theory is that Trunks would've become in his time what Gohan was meant to become in the main DBZ timeline. To put it simply, I think Trunks would've become bad ass.

What do you guys think? Do you think Trunks could become strong enough to defeat a Buu? How would you see it happening if Trunks fought Buu in his time? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Bernkastel]

From a manga standpoint the answer is a resounding no. Any form of Buu would have been laughably above the ASSJ level Future Trunks achieved. In one of the video games there's a story line where Future Trunks obtains the level of SSJ3, but I doubt that would have been enough to defeat Buu.

I am under the impression that even if Goku could have beaten Fat Buu it would not have been easy. He probably would have suffered from ki drain like he did against Kid Buu and ultimately failed. If Fat Buu somehow managed to separate his good and evil sides like he did in the normal time line and become Super Buu then Trunks would have been fucked either way.

 

[SSJPhenom]

DBZ Topic #7: Goku vs Superman​

Hey guys, I'm back again with another DBZ topic, however, this one isn't solely DBZ. It also includes the DC Universe. I know Screw Attack and Death Battle have already done this, but I want to see what you guys think on this topic. What would happen in a Goku vs Superman scenario?

We pretty much know their powers. They both possess super strength, speed, stamina, endurance, senses, and they both can fly. Superman has heat vision that can encompass everything in his sight. He also has super breath and cold breath and is invulnerable to everything except kryptonite, magic, and radiation from a red sun. Goku can manipulate his body's ki into energy attacks and other abilities such as telekinesis and the instant transmission. Actually, if you count everything Goku can do, he has more abilities than Superman.

I just don't see how they say Superman would defeat Goku. I understand their justification, however, my problem with it is that in both the comics and animations, Superman has been beaten by beings far less powerful than Goku. And although Superman is supposed to have limitless potential, he's rarely shown that kind of power in fights. If Goku were to fight Superman just for the sport of it, yes he'd probably lose, however, if Goku were really trying to beat Superman, he could do it and I say he could do it fairly easily. First off, Goku is a genius when it comes to fighting. Not to mention that he can sense energy and energy sources. So I think Goku would deduce fairly quickly that Superman's power comes from the sun. After that discovery, all Goku would have to do is use instant transmission to take Superman to the other world where there is no sun and then fight him there. If you think Goku wouldn't be able to deduce Superman's power source, then how about this: Superman can't manipulate his ki like Goku can. So he wouldn't be able to hide his real power. Its very likely that Goku, fearing the destruction of the Earth from their battle, would use instant transmission to take Superman to other world where they can fight freely. Again, no sun in other world so Goku would win. I just think they down played Goku a bit. Surely he is one for a fair fight and is reluctant to kill, however, the name of their show is Death Battle and Superman is the same as Goku when it comes to killing. So I think they should've made Goku play to win.

What do you guys think? Did they get it right? Could Goku ever defeat Superman? Let me know your opinions.

 

[Bernkastel]

Sreawattack has done the battle twice. Their first battle made sense to some degree, but the second one was basically "Supes has no limitations so he autowins." Massive no limits fallacy. I'd say you can't really trust either, but the first was far more credible.

It really depends on which version of Goku and Supes you are using. Canon manga Goku by the end sits around high stellar level. Meaning as a SSJ3 he should be able to destroy a large star but not much else. If you factor in Battle of Gods SSJG Goku jumps anywhere from solar system level to star system level. This is the Goku that Screwattack mostly used. If you use anime/movie/video game Goku then he's allot stronger. Anime Goku is already sitting around galaxy level as a SSJ3 and should be multi-galaxy level as a SSJ4 or by the time you get through all the movie/video game feats. Though he shouldn't be anywhere near universal. Although non canon feats for Goku are hard to quantify fairly, which is why most [sane] people will just use the canon version. It's simpler.

Vice versa, Superman, depending on the version you use, can range anywhere from city level to high end multiversal level - which is vastly above any version of Goku's pay grade. Superman, depending on the version, also has all sorts of hax and additional powers that Goku does not. All versions of Goku rely on physical attacks only. Meaning that against intangible beings and reality warpers he's pretty much fucked, and IIRC Superman Prime is the latter so against that version of Supes, Goku would lose automatically.

The version of Supes that Screwattack used was the current version, who should stack up pretty well against current SSJG Goku, low end of course. Not sure about the upgraded SSJG form Goku gains in the new Frieza film. But from what I've heard he's still not above Beerus, and he should be sitting around star system level as well.

So all and all it really depends on which version of Goku and Supes that are used. Goku wins some, and Supes wins some. Though I do know that the strongest version of Supes is easily more powerful than the strongest version of Goku.

 

[Барбоса]

The only thing I can think of that might affect the total annihilation of Trunks that a Buu appearance in the future timeline would entail is just how important the hatching process was.

Future Trunk's Earth was already in ruins and did not have the number of powerful individuals - Goku, Vegeta, Gohan - who were needed to hatch Buu.

Would less power put into the hatching mean a weaker Majin Buu? And even if it did, would Future Trunks be any match for him? Trunks may have been able to reach SSJ2 but Buu would need a significant drop to be in any danger.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Not a significant drop. Remember, SSJ2 Gohan was half as strong as Majin Buu and Goku and Vegeta were stronger than that as SSJ2.

 

[lenguy]

I've always hated this debate. These are two fictional characters from two completely different universes and that's why it makes things hard to figure out. Granted, I don't know a hell of a lot about Superman. I only know the basics and the little things I've learned from those Screw Attack videos. It just seems to me that Superman is just completely overpowered in ever sense. I mean, the dude can pull entire galaxies on his shoulders and lift infinity. That is a lot of brute strength. Well all know Goku is strong but his physical strength is hard to determine. Just how much can Goku actually lift? We've seen him break big rocks, move small mountains, lift the Z sword around and of course train with heavy weights. All impressive feats, sure. Do I believe Goku could physically tug around a planet?? I don't believe so. Sure, is easily established that he could destroy entire planets with the greatest of ease. So does that mean that he could channel the same type of power needed to move around a planet? Its these things that are hard to determine. In the brute strength department, Superman takes this easily.

Speed and combat skill is another area needed to be discussed for a match like this. Superman is fast, that much is obvious. I've watched a few videos where people have discussed the whole Screw Attack Goku/Superman videos. A few people who are well knowledgeable in comics and Superman have pointed out that while Superman is fast, he is only fast in a straight line. They used some kind a reference in the comics where supposedly Batman told Superman that if Usain Bolt is faster than Muhammad Ali in a straight line does that mean hes faster than him in the ring? Er something like that. Don't quote me on this as I've already pointed out, I'm rather ignorant in the whole comic or Superman department.

So it got me thinking, Goku is a master at martial arts and fighting. They move at incredible speeds. Some times much faster than even the most trained eye. Which makes me wonder if that would give Goku an edge in speed. Since Goku is more experienced and excels at omni-directional combat speed and skills while Superman is apparently only fast in a straight line. That and if you factor in Instant Transmission, which is in fact instant. Instant Transmission does not have a finite speed, it is instant. Factor those variables in then Goku should have an advantage in actual combat. Hes been shown to apply it to actual combat on more than one occasion. Not to mention, Superman doesn't have the ability to sense Ki which I think is also a big factor.

I'd say its possible for both to come out with a win but I'm still in favor of Superman. Just because he doesn't have any limits which Goku does. How do you defeat somebody without any limits? Who really knows. Like I've said, its possible for each character to win, it just depends on the circumstances and variables you want to use. The winner is whoever you want it to be, simple as that.

 

[Bernkastel]

I wouldn't say the winner is who you wanted it to be. You'd have to use their feats to determine which would likely win the fight. And it doesn't have to be "to the death." It could be BFR or KO. Like in the WZT we use kayfabe [or other criteria] to compare wrestlers and decide which one is better. Your method sounds very subjective. Which is not proper. Also Superman does have limits. If he didn't then he'd be omnipotent. And he's not.

From reading/watching the series we can determine that Goku has X amount of power. X amount of speed and reflexes. X amount of strength. X amount of hax. X amount of skill and intelligence. And has X durability. So we put them against whatever version of Supes we think has the feats shown that might be able to match up best with Goku to give the best debate possible. There's no point in putting Goku up against some ridiculously overpowered or underpowered version of Supes, because that would be boring. Like Hogan vs Barry Horowitz in the WZT. Hogan vs Austin is a much better match up. Same principle here.

 

[Барбоса]

If Buu was twice a strong as SSJ2, then it would require a 30-40% drop to make any fight with Trunks remotely competitive and that is most definitely significant.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If Buu was twice a strong as SSJ2, then it would require a 30-40% drop to make any fight with Trunks remotely competitive and that is most definitely significant.

He wasn't twice as strong as a SSJ2 in general, however, he was just twice as strong as Gohan SSJ2 who was significantly weaker than he was 7 years prior. He was also significantly weaker than both Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2. So I think if Trunks continued his training and reached SSJ2(which he was close to already) he could be a match for Fat Buu.