The 2012 Presidential Campaign has begun.

[Cena's Little Helper]

You don't have to convince me to not like President Obama. I am with you on that. I just tried to say something positive about him. I did it for shock value.

I'm not knocking you at all, man. I just think that he has done very little so far, and that what he has done doesn't bode very well for his future. If only John Edwards wouldn't have cheated on his wife and got caught, if only.

 

[Minor League Brian]

The thought of Palin running this country scares me...

 

[X]

What are his two biggest claims to fame right now besides the stimulus package? His global warming bill and furthering the extension of benefits to homosexuals who work for the federal government. I'm not saying that these aren't important things, but he is essentially ignoring the big picture and focusing on extremely divisive issues that are, frankly, of very little importance to the American public-at-large.

Civil rights are of very little importance?

The man has been in office for 6 months, he isn't FDR for God's sake were you expecting him to fix America in his first 100 days or something?

 

[Mr. Steve]

The thought of Palin running this country scares me...

 

[FromTheSouth]

Sounds like you should be a fan of Ron Paul then, as he too advocates for the elimination of the IRS, as well as countless other utterly useless government agencies.

Beyond you, I think Ron Paul supporters are the scariest brand of people. They are like soccer loyalists.

Also, Ron Paul wants the US to abandon Israel, and I as a Jew cannot support him in good conscience. I also think that the US does have a world wide role to play. He seems to be in support of isolationism, and I think, that in a pragmatic sense, the threat of America alone solves more problems than the actual military does. I think the threat of America is essential to maintaining some sense of a worldwide order.

What do you mean by "values"? As in moral values? Because if so, I'm not buying what he's selling. Keep your personal beliefs in morals and values to yourself, and out of your politics.

Really I don't have any problem with Huckabee. Just evangelicals in general.

You can't leave morals out of politics. It's impossible. Most laws are decisions on where to restrict liberties, and the only way to decide this is based on a moral code. If laws were made strictly devoid of a sense of morals, what laws would there be? Some people think that killing is moral, some don't, so when in conflict, avoid legislating? That doesn't work. Certain morals are universal. Protect children, elderly, and handicapped, compassion for those less fortunate, these are ideals that at some point we all share, the trick is to determine at what point to restrict rights and add protections, and there is no science to that. For many, it is a gut reaction. The bright and shining line of demarcation between reasonable and overly restrictive does not exist, and therefore, a common sense morality takes precedent. Huckabee doesn't determine whether or not to sign a bill based on Leviticus, he makes those decisions based on the ebb and flow of society's common beliefs.

 

[Moon Knight]

Paleo-con? Old school, fiscally responsible, non-evangelical? He's mormon.

Palin isn't laughable. Most of her duties on the campaign got edited into thirty second soundbites to make her look bad. All she wants to do is clean up corruption, which is basically what the winner in 2012 will have to do. If you don't believe me, google Inspector general fired.

Google information on Obama setting up controlled press conferences. People think Obama is going to be this uberclean saviour of America and put us on the straight and narrow...False. Seems everyday I hear more and more on his corruption, doesn't he back the fairness doctrine? Obama to me is laughable, I don't like Palin either but I don't think we saw the real her in 2008 but a controlled her as I don't that fogey McCain wanted her there.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Civil rights are of very little importance?

The man has been in office for 6 months, he isn't FDR for God's sake were you expecting him to fix America in his first 100 days or something?

No, but he was elected when we were just about to enter the worst recession since The Great Depression, and, unlike FDR, I don't think he has instilled anyone with a sense of hope for the future (I think he's too busy prancing around with his wife on date nights and posing for the paparazzi at sporting events...thanks for shoving it in our faces how good you got it, Obama). Also, I said that these are important issues, but how the hell can same-sex couples even get benefits when they don't have jobs?

 

[SavageTaker]

I don't think Obama is going to bring in a global holocaust. But with the things you listed then I guess it's understandable why you voted for Obama, X.

And you're right X, not me. Not me.

 

[Razor]

I'm from Arkansas. Born and raised. Huckabee was in no way a complete fuck up while governor. He raised taxes, to spend on important stuff. He expanded health care to children, but found ways to pay for it without massive taxes. I think he used the Tobacco Settlement and MediCAID to do it. He also helped with school funding and what not. He also spent the time pushing faith-based initiatives that weren't all that polarizing. He knew where to draw that line.

Through out his two terms he also cut spending by the government and tried to cut taxes in other ways, like doubling the standard deduction and child care tax credit. He also abolished a few taxes, like the capital gains tax or something like that. He, from what I see, caught a balance between the two issues of "We need money to pay for important things, but we also don't need the people of Arkansas paying out the ass." Which is especially important, considering we in Arkansas aren't all that well off. Seriously.

He also proposes the Consumption Tax, as fromthesouth said. I like the idea. However, I'm sure there's a catch. I'm sure of it. It seems to work so flawlessly. And to gain money that we never had before (from under the table jobs like Prostitution AND the illegal immigrant pool. Remember. they can't very well be paying taxes when we don't officially acknowledge their existence) while gaining money from consolidating the government? Hell yeah. Can be used for schools. But I'm wary of it.

Oh. He cut cokes from our schools. Like, they could finish out the contracts they had standing, but they couldn't renew them. Fucking hell. I liked me a coke for lunch every day. Probably why i was 20 pounds overweight though. Huh.

As far as I'm concerned his only really big mistake over his governership was the BMI index thing. He did the "Every public school in Arkansas shall measure BMI of their students." Bullshit. The BMI is incredibly broken, and the money spent on that measure was really spent for a piece of paper that was sent home to say "Hey, from our incredibly broken system of measurement your child is obese."

Oh, and the Wayne Dumond thing. But that's what happens when you commute the sentence of a violent rapist. It might come back to bite you.

EDIT: Oh, and I voted Obama. Because McCain? Really? I'm a liberal. I can't really show my face after voting for that crazy old dude.

 

[X]

Beyond you, I think Ron Paul supporters are the scariest brand of people. They are like soccer loyalists.

First off, FUCK MY FUCKING COMPUTER. I just typed up a great response to your entire post, clicked "reply" and it was lost in the internet jungle forever. Fucking stupid computer.

Secondly, whats wrong with loyalty? They had to be obsessive if they wanted to propel a practically 3rd party candidate like Ron Paul to the national spotlight, something they accomplished. He did much better then anyone expected him to, and that's mainly due to the obsessiveness of his supporters.

Also, Ron Paul wants the US to abandon Israel, and I as a Jew cannot support him in good conscience. I also think that the US does have a world wide role to play. He seems to be in support of isolationism, and I think, that in a pragmatic sense, the threat of America alone solves more problems than the actual military does. I think the threat of America is essential to maintaining some sense of a worldwide order.

I understand that because you're Jewish you would be opposed to the abandonment of Israel, but I completely support it. But you shouldn't let your faith decide your political beliefs FTS, especially in regards to Israel. It's a country, not a church. This is what I hate so much when it comes to Israel, anytime anyone even attempts to criticize their governemtn/policies, you are immediately labeled as an anti-semite and your opinion is thus null and void. Which is utter bullshit. I don't hate Jewish people, but I have serious problems with the country of Israel.

I may offend you here FTS, but I tend to side with the Palestinians in that issue. If they didn't resort to violence and terrorism so often I'd fully support them. I think it's complete bullshit that we just went and cut up holy land that wasn't ours and just gave it away. You wouldn't be angry if some outsiders came to your home, taped off half of it and gave it to an impoverished family out of feelings of guilt?

Plus I have no sympathy for a country that cluster bombs children and then acts like it's no big deal. Again, no offense FTS, but fuck Israel.

When it comes to isolationism, I'm in total support of it. I don't see how us getting involved in, say, the Middle East is any of our business, or helps us in any way. Further more, our wars in Afghanistan & Iraq, while liberating for those country's citizens, have done nothing to combat terrorism. Terrorism is at it's highest levels ever, and our role in the Middle East has done nothing to curb it.

Then again, I'm a dirty old pacifist hippie so take what I have to say about war with a grain of salt.

You can't leave morals out of politics. It's impossible. Most laws are decisions on where to restrict liberties, and the only way to decide this is based on a moral code. If laws were made strictly devoid of a sense of morals, what laws would there be? Some people think that killing is moral, some don't, so when in conflict, avoid legislating? That doesn't work. Certain morals are universal. Protect children, elderly, and handicapped, compassion for those less fortunate, these are ideals that at some point we all share, the trick is to determine at what point to restrict rights and add protections, and there is no science to that. For many, it is a gut reaction. The bright and shining line of demarcation between reasonable and overly restrictive does not exist, and therefore, a common sense morality takes precedent. Huckabee doesn't determine whether or not to sign a bill based on Leviticus, he makes those decisions based on the ebb and flow of society's common beliefs.

I meant morals in the "family" or religious sense. Obviously technically morals are involved in every law decision, but I'm talking more about things like the abstinence-only sex education policies. Shit like that doesn't fly with me.

I fully expect an epic response by FTS bashing me as an anti-semite

 

[Cheech 72]

No, but he was elected when we were just about to enter the worst recession since The Great Depression, and, unlike FDR, I don't think he has instilled anyone with a sense of hope for the future (I think he's too busy prancing around with his wife on date nights and posing for the paparazzi at sporting events...thanks for shoving it in our faces how good you got it, Obama). Also, I said that these are important issues, but how the hell can same-sex couples even get benefits when they don't have jobs?

The media does make Obama out to be America's boyfriend instead of our President. I don't think its a sin for the man to take his wife out to dinner once in a while or to a ball game. George Bush spent 40% of his first few months in office on vacation for fucks sake. That was before 9/11 when the FBI had evidence to show attacks were coming. Bush just swept it under the rug like it was nothing. Obama's not perfect and hasn't done as much as he said he would but its only been 6 months. Obama would have to strangle a puppy on live television to not be reelected.

 

[Murfish]

Is Ron Paul the paleo-con in favor of gun rights?

 

[FromTheSouth]

First off, FUCK MY FUCKING COMPUTER. I just typed up a great response to your entire post, clicked "reply" and it was lost in the internet jungle forever. Fucking stupid computer.

That happened to me in the religion thread once. I still made it work. Let's see how you did.....

Secondly, whats wrong with loyalty? They had to be obsessive if they wanted to propel a practically 3rd party candidate like Ron Paul to the national spotlight, something they accomplished. He did much better then anyone expected him to, and that's mainly due to the obsessiveness of his supporters.

Grasping at straws. LOL He is crazy like a fox. In all honesty though, the guy didn't understand that we are part of a global community, and drawing away from it is dangerous for us. You know who else withdrew from the global community? North Korea, who, I think we can all agree, is not the picture of stability and role model for the world they think they are.

I understand that because you're Jewish you would be opposed to the abandonment of Israel, but I completely support it. But you shouldn't let your faith decide your political beliefs FTS, especially in regards to Israel.

I'm not ever sure if it's my faith. It's a cultural thing. I don't really identify with too many Jewish principles, and I believe in God and think that the Bible gives us some good rules to live by. I also think that some of it is outdated, but you take what you can out of it. And, one thing I take out of it is that area of land belonged to my people for centuries, and I think we deserve at least a piece of it. Honestly, we are surrounded by complete hostility. We got an Indian Reservation for our people, who have survived numerous persecution where we were killed off by the millions. Our ability to endure should insure that we have somewhere to protect the core of our civilization. The pre-zionist era allowed for us the be rounded up and captured, sent to endure the most terrible pain, our gold teeth pulled and throw into banks, sent to die by sucking in poisonous gas, burned, starved, raped, and tortured. We were too spread out, not enough Jews in an area to mass for protection. At least with Israel rebirth, we could amass an army, a Jewish army to protect a people who have never lived with any kind of safety. Anything we have ever had has been taken. Our symbols have been paraded as spoils in front of rulers from Nero to Hitler.

It's a country, not a church.

That doesn't matter. It is important that a people have a homeland. America has fucked the Native Americans, but that is no reason to say the Jews should have to suffer too.

This is what I hate so much when it comes to Israel, anytime anyone even attempts to criticize their governemtn/policies, you are immediately labeled as an anti-semite and your opinion is thus null and void. Which is utter bullshit. I don't hate Jewish people, but I have serious problems with the country of Israel.

Anti-zionist. I don't believe you have a problem with the people.

I may offend you here FTS, but I tend to side with the Palestinians in that issue. If they didn't resort to violence and terrorism so often I'd fully support them.

Good to have limits.

I think it's complete bullshit that we just went and cut up holy land that wasn't ours and just gave it away. You wouldn't be angry if some outsiders came to your home, taped off half of it and gave it to an impoverished family out of feelings of guilt?

We didn't do it. The British did it. But anyway, it was taken from us how many times?

I don't think your analogy applies.

Plus I have no sympathy for a country that cluster bombs children and then acts like it's no big deal. Again, no offense FTS, but fuck Israel.

Fighting terror isn't a regular war. The only way to stop the people who are bombing you is to kill them. Nothing, nothing at all, will stop them. Those people have to be killed, and those people hide amongst the children, and the women, and the schools, and while they're at the schools they teach the kids that Israel must be destroyed by bombs, and poison, and any means necessary. I'm sorry, I would say that the terrorists who die with the children used Israel as a means to kill those children.

When it comes to isolationism, I'm in total support of it. I don't see how us getting involved in, say, the Middle East is any of our business, or helps us in any way. Further more, our wars in Afghanistan & Iraq, while liberating for those country's citizens, have done nothing to combat terrorism. Terrorism is at it's highest levels ever, and our role in the Middle East has done nothing to curb it.

We are members of a global community. Ron Paul doesn't even want information on other countries plans against him. He plans on drastically reducing the role, scope, and budget of the CIA. I'm sorry, but taking all of our wealth of the global market place will anger many countires that depend on our imports. This is isolationism. This is Ron Paul.

I will tell you what though. If we are starting a nation, Ron Paul would be a great leader. People would live blissfully, for a time, but the world would start encroaching. And when that world starts encroaching, only one man can save the people. The Governator. Coming March 2011.

Then again, I'm a dirty old pacifist hippie so take what I have to say about war with a grain of salt.

Maybe a little more than that history major, but I definitely have some gripes with your theory.

I meant morals in the "family" or religious sense. Obviously technically morals are involved in every law decision, but I'm talking more about things like the abstinence-only sex education policies. Shit like that doesn't fly with me.

Honestly, this hurts me to say this. TV and other media sources provide much of the other sex education. I learned more about AIDS drom Pedro Zamora of the Real World and Magic Johnson than I ever did in school. It is up to the kids to find a balance between the two major influences where they feel comfortable.

I fully expect an epic response by FTS bashing me as an anti-semite

Hope I delivered.

 

[FromTheSouth]

The media does make Obama out to be America's boyfriend instead of our President. I don't think its a sin for the man to take his wife out to dinner once in a while or to a ball game. George Bush spent 40% of his first few months in office on vacation for fucks sake. That was before 9/11 when the FBI had evidence to show attacks were coming. Bush just swept it under the rug like it was nothing. Obama's not perfect and hasn't done as much as he said he would but its only been 6 months. Obama would have to strangle a puppy on live television to not be reelected.

I just want to say here that George Bush, at his expense, built a fortress with a complete situation room, and kept the people that belong in that room with him, or available to teleconference instantly. His vacations were fully functional workdays.

 

[X]

Grasping at straws. LOL He is crazy like a fox. In all honesty though, the guy didn't understand that we are part of a global community, and drawing away from it is dangerous for us. You know who else withdrew from the global community? North Korea, who, I think we can all agree, is not the picture of stability and role model for the world they think they are.

That's completely unfair to equate North Korea's troubles with their isolationist policy. They have nothing to do with each other. North Korea isn't the picture of stability not because of their isolationism, but because they are a dictatorship with a leader more obsessed with himself then Saddam Hussein was.

I'm not ever sure if it's my faith. It's a cultural thing. I don't really identify with too many Jewish principles, and I believe in God and think that the Bible gives us some good rules to live by. I also think that some of it is outdated, but you take what you can out of it. And, one thing I take out of it is that area of land belonged to my people for centuries, and I think we deserve at least a piece of it.

See, that's insane to me. That you think because you once roamed a land that somehow makes that land permanently yours forever.

Say you had a family house, one your great-great-grandfather had built years ago on Islamic holy land. You'd be fine with having your home taken away from you and given to Muslims because they laid a claim to that land hundreds (if not thousands) of years before? That's fucking INSANE to me.

What the hell entitles Jewish people to that land? Seriously? Because they ONCE lived on it, years ago? Too bad, find a new land. You can't just uproot an entire country of people because you feel like land is "owed" to you. What kind of bullshit is that?

Honestly, we are surrounded by complete hostility. We got an Indian Reservation for our people, who have survived numerous persecution where we were killed off by the millions.

The holocaust was obviously an awful and tragic event, that goes without saying. But it doesn't give you the right to take away people's homes, sorry. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust, why should they have to suffer for Hitler's lunacy?

The pre-zionist era allowed for us the be rounded up and captured, sent to endure the most terrible pain, our gold teeth pulled and throw into banks, sent to die by sucking in poisonous gas, burned, starved, raped, and tortured.

Which again has NOTHING to do with Palestine. Why should they suffer for something they weren't involved in?

You make it sound like the Jewish people were nearly extinct after the Holocaust. It's a religion, not a race. It's not something you have to be born with like a race, anyone can convert to Judaism.

We were too spread out, not enough Jews in an area to mass for protection. At least with Israel rebirth, we could amass an army, a Jewish army to protect a people who have never lived with any kind of safety. Anything we have ever had has been taken. Our symbols have been paraded as spoils in front of rulers from Nero to Hitler.

That really sucks that the Jewish people have had such a hard time over the course of history, it does. Still not seeing how this justifies the dividing of Palestine.

Why not start up a Pagan country while we're at it? They've been tortured and killed off at the same rate, if not more so, then Jews have. Where's there country?

That doesn't matter. It is important that a people have a homeland. America has fucked the Native Americans, but that is no reason to say the Jews should have to suffer too.

You make it sound like the Jews were barred from entering Palestine before Israel was created. They could go and live there all they wanted, no one was stopping them. Sure they can have a homeland, I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is stealing millions of people's homes from them. Why do the Palestinian's have to lose THEIR homeland in order to make a new one for the Jews?

We didn't do it. The British did it. But anyway, it was taken from us how many times?

When I saw "we", I was referring to the Allies.

And it doesn't matter how many times it was taken from the Jews. It doesn't justify taking away the Palestinian's home. Besides, you're completely forgetting the fact that the land was Holy Land to the Palestinians and Muslims as well. Is Judaism a "better" religion then Islam? That's the message it sends, that Judaism deserves it more then the Muslims do.

Fighting terror isn't a regular war. The only way to stop the people who are bombing you is to kill them. Nothing, nothing at all, will stop them. Those people have to be killed, and those people hide amongst the children, and the women, and the schools, and while they're at the schools they teach the kids that Israel must be destroyed by bombs, and poison, and any means necessary. I'm sorry, I would say that the terrorists who die with the children used Israel as a means to kill those children.

I was actually referring to several cases of just children being killed by cluster bombs, and the government of Israel not even issuing an apology, or any remorse. "Casualties of war". Fuck that. I don't care WHAT reasoning you make for yourself, killing children is not acceptable. I don't care if Osama Bin Laden himself is wearing a coat made of small children, you don't kill kids. Period.

I don't think you're quite aware of just how brutal Israel has become. They openly target CIVILIAN settlements of Palestinians and attack them. If you want to claim to be superior, you can't stoop to the same terrorist actions as your enemies. It just doesn't work like that.

We are members of a global community. Ron Paul doesn't even want information on other countries plans against him. He plans on drastically reducing the role, scope, and budget of the CIA. I'm sorry, but taking all of our wealth of the global market place will anger many countires that depend on our imports. This is isolationism. This is Ron Paul.

Huh? That paragraph has me a bit confused FTS, what does the CIA have to do with imports?

This is going really off topic though. Perhaps we should start an Israel-Palestine Conflict thread?

 

[Mr. TM]

You are right.

The Campaign does start here.

TM for President

Write it in!

 

[FromTheSouth]

Gee buddy, how much rep you reckon that will take.

 

[Minor League Brian]

Gee buddy, how much rep you reckon that will take.

That was a completely pointless jab, FTS. You're better then that.

But make that topic X was talkin' bout; I wanna hop in, or at the very least read it.

 

[Mr. TM]

At least 20,000.

 

[Murfish]

That will take a while.

 

[Mr. TM]

I am deep into the 10,000s now.

And with the inflation of reps, I should be able to do it well before 2012

 

[Murfish]

You can probably hit it by the end of the year.

 

[Mr. TM]

Perhaps.

 

[Shadowmancer]

This is going really off topic though. Perhaps we should start an Israel-Palestine Conflict thread?

Do you want to create a headache for the mods?

 

[FromTheSouth]

I've kinda said all I want to. I'll reply to X in a little bit. I gotta get high again before I type all that.