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Survivor Series LD - Who Will Survive? Not the Viewers
- Thread starter Turd Ferguson
- Start date
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Did you ever think the reason they make the most money is because of the amount of time WWE took building them? Any fan with any sense knew Cena was gonna be the man in '03 but instead of rushing his push they took almost 2 years to build the guy to be the guy, they didn't throw him to the wolves and they protected his ass every step of the way. Cena has the IT factor and is a hard worker but he also had tons of help.
Hardy and Batista left and yes they did build those guys properly, Edge was injury proned as fuck so can't fault WWE for that either but the rest was nothing but a bunch of hot shot, half assed attempts at making a star. Its constant rush, they don't take the time to make these guys big stars and it shows now more than ever.
I get why WWE keeps Cena and Orton on top but I also understand their constant short sighted decisions with guys like Punk and Bryan is only gonna hurt them down the road. I know a lot about business and them constantly killing pushes at the first sign of trouble may look good today, but when Orton and Cena are gone they are gonna wish they were only looking 2 months ahead instead of 2 years. You may not understand what I'm saying right now, but you will, mark my words KB, you will.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
What's your point? That talented people make more money when they have help? This is news?
Batista was the bigger star than Cena and Hardy had been in the WWE over ten years before winning his first world title. You might remember the story of the year in 2008 being Hardy chasing the brass ring and drawing in the best Royal Rumble numbers in seven years. That's rushing it?
Punk held the world title longer than Cena. I don't exactly see how a 434 day title reign is short sighted.
Bryan got the push and rub of a lifetime if not a generation. Not many people paid to see him. That's not on WWE at all. They tried something, it didn't work, they went back to what did work.
That's business.
Considering Cena and Orton have at least five to seven years left on top each, I think they have time to fix it.
I understand them. I understand you have a very strange definition of what hot shotting is but I understand them.
BringThePain834
Getting Noticed By Management
Cena vs Rock. 3 Times in a Lifetime. It needs to happen
I would rather have my testicles ripped off by salt covered gloves than watch Cena vs Rock III.
DetectiveZelix
King of Zecropolis
Cena vs Orton is just terrible. We all know how it will turn out. Cena will just run Through Orton again. There arent any 2 wrestlers in the WWE that bore me more than these two
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
No its not news but they are big stars because of the help they got, same with Batista and Hardy. They were protected and they didn't put them in situations they couldn't handle. They don't do that with guys like Punk, Bryan and Ryback. Although I know they don't do it but sometimes it seems like WWE is setting them up to fail.
I actually said they built those 2 properly, as in they didn't rush them. So you're basically arguing what I agreed with in the first place.
Except they did when they brought back Punk 8 days after he beat Cena for the title at MITB. They killed his momentum before his title reign even began by being short sighted.
Yeah, short sighted business. Bryan got 50,000 less buys than the year before headlined by the biggest box office draw of the last 10 years in Lesnar and it was his first PPV main event. Austin did the worst WM buyrate of all time in his first real PPV main event, yet he's the biggest wrestling draw of all time except for maybe 2 guys. If that was today they would have pulled the plug after his submission match with Hart and he wouldn't have become as big as he did. Sometimes it takes time for quality to turn into big bucks and that's why you take time with guys like Bryan instead of running back to Cena and oversaturating the fuck out of him. I'm not saying Punk and Bryan would be top draws but they would draw more than they currently do and maybe Cena could actually take more than 2 months off.
Unless people get sick of them or worse they can't wrestle anymore. Don't you think it would be wise to have a safety net if circumstances prevail?
And since you quoted saying "I think they have time to fix it" shows that you know there is a problem in the way they push guys.
No you don't.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I'm going to keep this short because going line by line makes my head hurt and I have too much stuff to do.
In short, Cena vs. Orton is going to make a lot of money. This argument that WWE hasn't made new stars has been said before. The first time was in 1993 which led to the rise of Diesel, Shawn Michaels and the real rise of Bret Hart. It was said again in 2002 when Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Batista and Rey Mysterio debuted. People have been saying the company is going to die because of a lack of new stars for over twenty years and yet they just keep making new stars. Funny how that works.
As for the people you're listing, the majority of them did fine. Someone like Bryan was never going to be a big deal and everyone knew it. Yes fans chant his name, but fans chant for people like Jerry Lawler, Michael Cole and JBL. It doesn't mean they're the next big things in wrestling, nor does it mean they should be the next world champion. Bryan was put on top of the company and the fans did not care. The house show I went to about two months ago saw Zack Ryder get a bigger pop than Daniel Bryan. the place was SILENT for his match other than a few spots.
I'm sure you do know a lot about business. I'm also sure that Vince and company know a good bit more than you and know who draws and who doesn't. Cena and Orton draw well for now, and they'll be replaced when they stop drawing. It's really not that complicated.
In short, Cena vs. Orton is going to make a lot of money. This argument that WWE hasn't made new stars has been said before. The first time was in 1993 which led to the rise of Diesel, Shawn Michaels and the real rise of Bret Hart. It was said again in 2002 when Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Batista and Rey Mysterio debuted. People have been saying the company is going to die because of a lack of new stars for over twenty years and yet they just keep making new stars. Funny how that works.
As for the people you're listing, the majority of them did fine. Someone like Bryan was never going to be a big deal and everyone knew it. Yes fans chant his name, but fans chant for people like Jerry Lawler, Michael Cole and JBL. It doesn't mean they're the next big things in wrestling, nor does it mean they should be the next world champion. Bryan was put on top of the company and the fans did not care. The house show I went to about two months ago saw Zack Ryder get a bigger pop than Daniel Bryan. the place was SILENT for his match other than a few spots.
I'm sure you do know a lot about business. I'm also sure that Vince and company know a good bit more than you and know who draws and who doesn't. Cena and Orton draw well for now, and they'll be replaced when they stop drawing. It's really not that complicated.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I never once said the company is gonna die because of lack of new stars. They got a monopoly on wrestling and frankly they would still make millions if they got a 1.5 rating every week based on that fact. They've got a constant stream of revenue coming from a lot of avenues that have nothing to do with the product on television so it would take a massive, catastrophic fuck up for them to go out of business. I will say though that if they had more quality television and built stars better their profits and revenue would be a hell of a lot higher than they are now. There's nothing wrong with WWE as a business being complacent, its a sound business model but it does nothing for the fans. Since I'm simply a fan that stuff really doesn't matter to me, I just want good quality programming that I can get invested to and if I don't get that I don't watch, if it ever changes though I will be happy to turn Raw back on once again.
The fans did care when Bryan was on top, they didn't care he was working with slope headed caveman and maybe the problem wasn't Bryan, maybe the problem was when Triple H got added into that Summerslam main event people got sceptical and lost interest because they knew what was going to happen next. I tried my best to be optimistic and frankly I was an idiot for doing so. I understand you will accept anything WWE throws at you KB and I love your passion for wrestling and for the WWE, I really do and I respect it, I respect the fact that you know your shit when it comes to wrestling in general, you would have to be a moron not to see that but deep down you must know that WWE could do better in both quality of programming and revenue. I'm not saying what WWE does is wrong but its painfully uninteresting and maybe as a fan I'm just sick of sitting through the shit storm hoping one day it may get better. Maybe I'm sick of wasting my time with WWE until it gets better and maybe I'm not wrong for feeling that way, and maybe, just maybe you aren't wrong either. Maybe its simply a difference of opinion and nothing more.
It's not complicated at all but once again you want to build others up to see if they can draw better than Orton or Cena down the road. When you got a special storyline like the Summer of Punk don't rush it, take your time and get maximum revenue out of it. They will never know if others can eventually outdraw Cena and Orton if they don't give them the time to draw like they did Cena and Orton. A star is only as valuable as his push. If Breaking Bad had Bryan Cranston and shit writing the show wouldn't have been nearly as memorable and wouldn't have made as much money as it did and that's all I'm saying. I'm sure Vince knows more about business than me and I understand that, I also understand being publicly traded can greatly alter his business decisions for better or for worse and lately it seems to be the latter not the former.
Anyways you said you were busy so have fun doing whatever it is you do, I just wanted to get the rest of that out there.
I think it was a very disappointing PPV cause their were no title changes and I didn't agree with Mark Henry's return I don't want to pay if I'm going to see Ryback lose thats why I want him to have a face turn so he gets appreciated by the fans and so he will perform better and win more. It was one on the worst iv seen in ages.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
A friend of mine and I went to a house show a few months ago. He's watched on and off for over 25 years and watches more than he used to. I've literally never missed a Raw and have seen every PPV. Odds are he and I will be watching WWE for the next 20 years at minimum. If you're someone that posts on a wrestling forum, odds are you're a far bigger fan than the average fan.
Therefore, why in the world would WWE cater to someone like you? You're alerady a sale, and while you might not be happy with the product, you keep coming back to it. I'm not thrilled with what WWE does all the time, but I'm never going to stop watching it. It would make no sense for them to book towards my tastes and alienate others who are on the fence about them.
Same thing here. Orton vs. Cena may not be the most interesting match to people who have watched forever, but we're not WWE's target audience and haven't been for a long time. How many 9 year olds do you think remember seeing Cena vs. Orton? Or were bored by it in the first place? The answer would be very few. They see their hero against the biggest villain in the company and will be begging their parents to buy them the show.
One more reason: Orton regularly beat Cena or at least went even with him. That sounds a bit more interesting than Ryback or Henry or Del RIo, none of whom had a chance against Cena anytime they got in the ring with him. People rarely want to see a match where they know who is winning. It gets boring fast.
That's why Orton vs. Cena is happening again and why any complaints from hardcore fans are always and should always be ignored.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Did I ever say WWE should cater to hardcore fans? Nope not once, hardcore fans watch regardless for the most part, they aren't the ones that need to be impressed. You're assuming Orton vs. Cena appeals to the average fan but since ratings aren't half of what they used to be maybe it doesn't appeal to as many people as you think. I don't care if they appeal to me, I really don't but I know effort when I see it and WWE doesn't put in the effort they used to, they're coasting it because they can. Its easy to appeal to kids, its a smart strategy, you can sell kids anything but when I was a kid watching wrestling it appealed to a lot more than just myself and business then was much better than now.
They don't have to appeal to me, but they can appeal to a hell of a lot more than just kids and hardcore fans that will watch regardless and it can be done in the confines of a PG environment. This isn't about blood and violence, its about their absolute lack of doing anything that resembles consistent, solid television. Good writing coupled with convincing characters, if WWE did that with their guys then it wouldn't be a problem and a good chunk of people wouldn't dread seeing Orton vs. Cena they would be looking forward to it. How many times did Triple H and Rock feud off and on? A lot yet most people never got sick of it because it was still a good storyline between 2 interesting characters.
I have no doubt Orton and Cena won't sell but that doesn't mean its the match that will sell the most, as a matter of fact there is no way Wrestlemania 30 does a million buys if that match is the main attraction.
PS. WWE's consistent lack of quality has stopped this fan from watching. I maybe one fan but I'm one fan who never thought WWE would get to the point I wouldn't watch, yet here we are.
Okay KB, I'm going to hold you up to this. Right now, make a prediction of how many more buys Cena vs. Orton will draw from the previous year's pay-per-view. For instance, if they fight at TLC, how many more buys will that TLC have over last year's TLC? Last year's buyrate did an estimated 170,000 buys with Cena vs. Ziggler as the headliner. How many more buys would Cena vs. Orton get over that?
I'll remember this and bring back up in the next couple of months.
Personally, I don't think anyone cares to see Orton vs. Cena again, except for fanfic writing teenaged girls and the kids who weren't around 3 years ago and won't be around 3 years from now.
The fact is, the whole booking of this "Authority" angle has fucking stunk. Once again, HHH puts his paws on something and it all turns to absolute shit. Think of how good WWE was before Summerslam and how bad they've been since then... what's the real difference there? HHH's fucking role on the program. Cena vs. Orton won't even be about Cena vs. Orton or the unification of the titles; it'll be about HHH playing puppeteer. Watch and see.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I'd say about 30-50k more at TLC, but I can't imagine they'd do it there.
I really hope you don't think I'm defending HHH. You should know me better than that by now.
Oh, I know. I just think automatically believing Cena vs. Orton will bring in cash flow is wrong, especially when you have to worry about HHH being the focal point of the storyline.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
It might, but a title unification match will draw. I don't think that match happens at TLC though.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
The former if they're smart.
It's...Baylariat!
Team Finnley Baylor
I think the build will be similar to the Ultimate Warrior/Hogan feud. Title vs. Title. It'll be about who's the 'Face of the WWE' as opposed to unifying belts.
And I'm 100% agreement with JMT on this one. The Authority has stunk because it hasn't built anyone up. If anything, it's brought Bryan back to earth and made Big Show even more irrelevant, if that were even possible.
Buyrate wise, it won't draw as much as last year's TLC. Also, Cena/Orton should be saved for the Rumble.
And I'm 100% agreement with JMT on this one. The Authority has stunk because it hasn't built anyone up. If anything, it's brought Bryan back to earth and made Big Show even more irrelevant, if that were even possible.
Buyrate wise, it won't draw as much as last year's TLC. Also, Cena/Orton should be saved for the Rumble.