So much for that CM Punk will draw ratings thing...

[JGlass]

That's it really. Can he draw when he's not in the ring with Cena? Can he draw when he's working with the same material everyone else in the WWE is? Those are the questions he has to answer.

I'll agree that the first question is one that needs answering, but the second one is kind of irrelevant. While you and I and a handful of other people would be interested to know whether or not CM Punk can draw well when he plays by the rules, it would be in the WWE's best interest NOT to put him to the test. He's more over than ever by breaking the rules, why ruin a good thing? It's a question that would be interesting to some to answer, but it would come at the expense of making money on Punk's antics.

 

[Slyfox696]

My buddy at the hospital watches Raw and goes to watch PPVs at bars and what not. No forums or anything for him, but generally we discuss Raw on Tuesday. Is this casual fandom?

I would say it depends upon what your conversations regarding wrestling are about. If you talk about what happened, like a recap? I would say so. If you talk about things like analyzing work rate and observing when guys are missing their marks in the ring, or when they're working oblivious to the hard camera, I would say it would move them a little further away from the casual label.

 

[Coco]

I think a lot of interesting things are at work here. I think some people are underestimating the power of the internet whereas if this storyline is part of a long term direction, it shows the confidence that those in power have in it. I think some people take the fact that people don't go beyond the WWE for wrestling news and discussion as an indictment of the IWC rather than look at it as an indictment of the WWE for not making people as passionate about the product as they possibly can. Frankly, I think the truth regarding these things is bigger than anyone in this thread can wrap their arms around.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'll agree that the first question is one that needs answering, but the second one is kind of irrelevant.

No, I think it's quite important.

He's more over than ever by breaking the rules, why ruin a good thing? It's a question that would be interesting to some to answer, but it would come at the expense of making money on Punk's antics.

Because just like what happened to Steve Austin and the Attitude Era in general, how do you top what you did last week? At some point, you can't shock people anymore, it's just beyond the human capability. At that point, you have to have something else to rely on. At that point, you have to work with the same material everyone else does.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I see what you're saying, but answer me this.

What they are doing with Punk is clearly different than what they've done with any other wrestler. Why change your product, just to appeal to those people who are already going to watch regardless, and have done so? You wouldn't, because those fans are already watching what you've been putting on, and by changing the product, you risk alienating them.

So why do you risk alienating those fans? Because by changing the product you're hoping to appeal to a different group of fans who are not currently watching. But, like you said, it's not working. However, it has the potential to do harm to your long term business (as I noted earlier, both in this post and a previous one), so, at best, this angle is negligible, and at worst, it's been harmful.

Funny thing here is, I think we are largely agreeing here but are getting bogged down in semantics.

Of course what they are doing with Punk is different, there's no denying that. That's obviously because they are trying to continue to please the people who are already watching, mass #1 so to speak, and they have been very successful in this regard. But equally obvious is the fact that they are trying to reach out to mass #2; they do not want to concede that they are not reaching them, they are continuing to try to reel them in, but in this regard, they have been unsuccessful. So in one light, there's success , but in another light, not so much. You risk alienating your loyal fans because you hope to attract the casual fans in (and your portrayal of the casual fan is exactly how I see it by the way), plus you assume your loyal niche audience will continue to remain there regardless. So this angle has not been harmful, has definitely been better than negligible, but has not lived up to all expectations.

As I see it, fans can be broken down into three basic groups. There's the loyal fans who watch week in and week out pretty much no matter what, and I would think most of us fall in here. There's the non-fans, which includes your wife, JGlass's dad, those who think wrestling fans are idiots, etc.,. You could put Hogan and Austin in a time machine and return both of them to their primes and put them in a dream match, and these people still aren't watching. And then there's the casual fan, the guy who tunes in sometimes, tunes out other times, people who like wrestling but have not been fully drawn in, or have lost interest. These are the people that Punk/Cena should be drawing in, but so far are not. And as I said earlier, I don't know how to gab the attention of these casual fans anymore.

 

[shattered dreams]

But they do care about the reasons two guys are going to fight.

And if those reasons are because guys we have never heard of (Cabana) and guys we don't care about (Kozlov) then we're not interested in this fight. We'll be interested in Cena putting down the guy who has been acting like an ungrateful punk, perhaps, but it's not really personal or unique.

Champion vs. champion is the reason to get the two back in the ring. But everyone knows this is Punk's angle, his chance to show he belongs in the spotlight.

Sly must be on the grounds crew because he just changed the goal posts.

No "casual" fans know or maybe more accurately care about that. The fans that know or care about that are IWC people and they enjoy the details. It is a fairly simple distinction, surprised you are having so much difficulty with it.

 

[Coco]

Because just like what happened to Steve Austin and the Attitude Era in general, how do you top what you did last week? At some point, you can't shock people anymore, it's just beyond the human capability. At that point, you have to have something else to rely on. At that point, you have to work with the same material everyone else does.

Did shocking people stop working or did the WWE lose two big stars at once? Frankly, I think shocking people is a peripheral issue. The entree is star power, and Rock and Austin left WWE with very little. Triple H isn't a guy who can carry the brand on his back, so things stopped dead. Similarly, I think shocks and how long you can do that is peripheral here as well. What's important is telling stories people care about again and building stars. If reality is the well you need to go to in order to reach that end, why not? If reality sells, there'll always be more reality there to draw from. Entertainment news stays popular while most people have seen it all already. Why? Reality is still realtiy and reality is still compelling.

Now's a time for letting people learn how to digest reality so we can make things start working again.

 

[CH David]

I would say it depends upon what your conversations regarding wrestling are about. If you talk about what happened, like a recap? I would say so. If you talk about things like analyzing work rate and observing when guys are missing their marks in the ring, or when they're working oblivious to the hard camera, I would say it would move them a little further away from the casual label.

A quick recap then a basic discussion of what we think may or may not happen down the line. I should also state that he is normally a big fan of Cena, but has gotten behind Punk.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly must be on the grounds crew because he just changed the goal posts.

No "casual" fans know or maybe more accurately care about that. The fans that know or care about that are IWC people and they enjoy the details. It is a fairly simple distinction, surprised you are having so much difficulty with it.

I didn't change anything. From the casual perspective, the two titles are getting them in the ring, but this is not just about title unification. After the scathing promos Punk has given, everyone knows this is not about title unification nearly as much as it is about whether Punk can earn his stripes and put his money where his mouth is, when the spotlight is shining the brightest on him. Cena mentioned this.

But why is Punk so mad? Why is Punk getting this chance? Because of thing the casual fan doesn't understand or care about, such as keeping him from going to ROH or whatever.

I'm having no difficulty in this discussion, I'm afraid you just didn't understand the details behind my post. Kind of like the casual fan and CM Punk's angle, I gave you the broad overview, yet you were still confused as to what was really going on.

 

[Slyfox696]

Did shocking people stop working or did the WWE lose two big stars at once? Frankly, I think shocking people is a peripheral issue. The entree is star power, and Rock and Austin left WWE with very little. Triple H isn't a guy who can carry the brand on his back, so things stopped dead.

I would say both. After all, Triple H isn't a guy who can carry a brand on his back, but Degeneration X was incredibly hot by doing shocking things.

 

[Slyfox696]

A quick recap then a basic discussion of what we think may or may not happen down the line.

I would put that closer to the closer fan line.

 

[JGlass]

Because just like what happened to Steve Austin and the Attitude Era in general, how do you top what you did last week? At some point, you can't shock people anymore, it's just beyond the human capability. At that point, you have to have something else to rely on. At that point, you have to work with the same material everyone else does.

You make a fair point, but look what happened when the Attitude Era ended, wrestling gradually lost popularity, and now we're at a point where it's just not getting the same numbers that it used to. I don't know why people aren't giving the same love to the WWE now that they were in 1999 and 2000, but they aren't. It was in the WWE's best interest to keep the Attitude Era alive as long as they could.

I suppose the difference here is that CM Punk isn't boosting ratings, but once we see buyrates we might have a better idea of how big an impact he really is making. If he is indeed helping to sell more PPVs, then it'll be in the WWE's interest to keep him smarky, rule breaking, and pandering to the IWC as long as possible. There's always going to be authority figures for Punk to rip on and scandalous stories for Punk to share, and as long as they keep selling, and I don't see why they wouldn't, he should keep doing it.

I think you're looking at his antics like a drug, which is a perfectly valid view. People are going to keep eating it up and eating it up, but eventually they're going to build up a tolerance to it and it's not going to give them the same rush it used to, and he's going to have to do something different, like prove he can be entertaining under the same rules.

I disagree with that way of thinking. People like what they like, and if the casual fans like CM Punk exposing backstage drama and whatnot, they'll fall for it every single time. Look at shows like CSI. It's the same goddamn thing each and every week, but they still get huge rating numbers. CM Punk can do the same goddamn thing every week, but if the fans like it, they'll keep on watching him do it every single week. Or look at The Rock, one of the greatest draws in WWE history, and he cut the same promo week in and week out. People loved the catch phrases, and they'd just keep watching so they can hear the Rock say "Jabroni" and "Know your role."

But once again, until we see how Punk has been selling the PPVs, we'll have no idea if letting him run with this persona will be a good business idea or not.

 

[Coco]

I would say both. After all, Triple H isn't a guy who can carry a brand on his back, but Degeneration X was incredibly hot by doing shocking things.

Not like the shock wore off though. If it did, WWE wouldn't find it profitable to keep putting out DVDs and books with their likeness all over them or bring the group back multiple time to shill glow-sticks. They became serious stars, and people didn't get bored of being "shocked" by them.

 

[xoxo French Kiss xoxo]

I was going to comment how Raw/Smackdown that end in contract signings, or complete talking segments are usually boring but I'm sure someones already made the comment and argued that point.

At least going into Money in the Bank there was a great deal of build up, but this whole contract signing feel flat. Cena and Punk did great on the mic, but it got boring fast. Adding a clip from the Rock's scripted shoot on Cena also did not help this segment.

Punks great at cutting promos, but if he's turned/turning face/tweener/Austin2011 I'm already bored with him. He's a better heel than face. He cuts better heel promos, he has better matches as a heel. He has better matches vs Faces. Although there was back story to support Del Rio vs Punk on Raw, it was odd to see a guy who was a heel three weeks ago, facing another heel.

Punks better in the ring than most other wrestlers, is he the Best in the World? No he's not Christ Jericho, sorry Jericho was the "Best in the World" at what he did prior to CM Punk, and Jericho still is.

I was riding high on Punk prior to him winning the WWE title and turning into this new character. But something about the new theme, his entrance, and the change of character has turned me off. Don't get me wrong I still like Punk, I still think hes a valuable asset to the WWE, and I think he is worthy of being in the Upper Card/Main event, but if he's this weird face/tweener/whatever I won't be a fan for much longer.

 

[Coco]

I was riding high on Punk prior to him winning the WWE title and turning into this new character. But something about the new theme, his entrance, and the change of character has turned me off.

It's that stink of a guy finally being granted the success you've demanded all these years while turning face at the same time. Smarks have a hard time stomaching that sort of thing. A shame as Punk works face better than most smarks give him credit.

 

[shattered dreams]

I didn't change anything. From the casual perspective, the two titles are getting them in the ring, but this is not just about title unification. After the scathing promos Punk has given, everyone knows this is not about title unification nearly as much as it is about whether Punk can earn his stripes and put his money where his mouth is, when the spotlight is shining the brightest on him. Cena mentioned this.

So Cena mentioned this on TV in a promo and no one understands it why again? I'd also argue the title is a pretty important part of the feud and has been since the beginning.

But why is Punk so mad? Why is Punk getting this chance? Because of thing the casual fan doesn't understand or care about, such as keeping him from going to ROH or whatever.

If they care about the details so much it isn't hard to look up but none of those things are central to the feud. Punk explained them all on TV as well. He didn't just say Colt Cabana, he explained who that was. Punk is a disgruntled worker in a souless corporation that has had enough and wants to speak his mind. You do not have to read a dirtsheet to understand this. As I have said all along, your mistake is thinking that the existence of extra meanings to the IWC precludes fans not as involved from enjoying the story for other reasons. All forms of entertainment are enjoyed for a variety of reasons. A lot of these casual fans are not supposed to relate to Punk anyway. Shut up or give the mic to Cena would seem to be the desired response.

 

[Alastor]

This angle drew me back into watching wrestling after I gave it a timeout for a few months after wrestlemania/extreme rules so its a success in my view. Down with the haters.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

So, let me get this straight:

Punk's push is a complete failure because the ratings didn't jump in a matter of weeks. Ratings haven't jumped under Cena, who has been on top for years, but that's not a problem?

I don't believe either man is to blame, but to slam Punk for it, and not Cena, is a bit odd.

 

[shattered dreams]

No Cena is awesome because he works with the same bland material every week for years on end. Do you know how much talent you have to have to entertain children with repetitive behavior and colors? Cena also supposedly drew in main events with a bunch of other stars over the years. Until CM Punk draws without stars by himself he is a failure because he mentioned something that 100% of the audience doesn't know the entire story of.

Little known fact: Sly isn't trolling on this topic near as much as he would like us to believe. He knows he is wrong but he can't help it because of his allegiances so that cover is a convenient excuse.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

No Cena is awesome because he works with the same bland material every week for years on end. Do you know how much talent you have to have to entertain children with repetitive behavior and colors? Cena also supposedly drew in main events with a bunch of other stars over the years. Until CM Punk draws without stars by himself he is a failure because he mentioned something that 100% of the audience doesn't know the entire story of.

Little known fact: Sly isn't trolling on this topic near as much as he would like us to believe.

He's a big Cena mark. I understand that, I have guys I defend.

This Cena's The Biggest Draw In The Company! line is getting old. He's not irreplaceable, and I think that bothers Cena fans. Hardcore fans give Cena a hard time, and that leaves his fans in an uproar. They feel a sense of obligation when it comes to defending him. If people had said the same thing about Austin, I would have been upset as well.

Good thing no one was dumb enough to say that

 

[Coco]

Little known fact: Sly isn't trolling on this topic near as much as he would like us to believe. He knows he is wrong but he can't help it because of his allegiances so that cover is a convenient excuse.

Oh yeah, I can totally see this ending well.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I think that Punk did draw well without Cena and HHH once. That was SummerSlam 2009.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

CM Punk doesn't draw ratings, but he does draw on WZ obviously. Anyway, Punk not drawing ratings is somewhat old news now isn't it? RAW ratings were lower coming off of MitB anyway.

 

[Harthan]

Well, you can't deny the numbers. Didn't draw like I expected it to.

Doesn't stop me from loving Punk and wanting more of this storyline and this kind of booking in general. I'm a fan, not WWE executive.

 

[Blue Chipper]

This thread at least proved one person to be a draw: Slyfox.