So much for that CM Punk will draw ratings thing...

[Slyfox696]

Well what about Austin stunning Vince for the first time? Legit question. Was that doing what the crowd thought was right?

I don't have any idea of when the first Stunner was, or the events surrounding it. But if it was after Montreal, then Vince had probably already began his character's descent into the evil boss.

I can't answer that, without having an idea of what lead up to it. That was over ten years ago, so I just can't say.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Tweener, face, heel, whatever... "classification" really doesn't matter, I suppose. However, it's obvious WWE wants Punk to be cheered. They know a solid portion of the crowd identifies with Punk, and agrees with most of what he's saying. They want he and Cena to reside on opposite ends of the "fan favorite" spectrum. While Punk's not playing the hero like you might expect from someone like Cena, he's definitely not the heel.

 

[CH David]

I don't have any idea of when the first Stunner was, or the events surrounding it. But if it was after Montreal, then Vince had probably already began his character's descent into the evil boss.

I can't answer that, without having an idea of what lead up to it. That was over ten years ago, so I just can't say.

Before Montreal. Owen was in the ring and Austin went to the ring all surrounded by cops. Vince went in the ring to tell him he can't do that and can't compete. Aw hell I'll just post it for you. Bad quality but whatever.

[YOUTUBE]E_c3w6kJmpk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Slyfox696]

Tweener, face, heel, whatever... "classification" really doesn't matter, I suppose.

It does if Cena and Punk draws, and as xfear said, babyfaces deserve more credit for it.

Please note, that is only a joke.

However, it's obvious WWE wants Punk to be cheered.

I don't know if they want him to be cheered as much as they don't care if he's not booed. I think the WWE is going the same way with Punk they've gone with Cena over the last couple years. They put a character out there, and let fans cheer or boo them how they want, just as long as the character is getting a reaction.

The WWE hasn't cared about Cena getting booed in years. Sure, they book him as a babyface, but they don't protect his character from getting booed. The announcers all note it, Cena has addressed it several times over the years, they put him in a feud with Rock, etc.

The WWE is going with a "legit" style of booking (think MMA) and just putting a character out there for fans to decide on their own if they want to cheer or boo, as long as they pay money to see it. I think they're doing the same thing with Punk now.

I mean, why should any fan in the audience cheer for Punk? What has Punk's character done to deserve any cheers? Absolutely nothing. Punk's character has done some very questionable things. There's really no reason for people to cheer him, just like there's no reason for people to boo Cena's character. But fans do cheer Punk and do boo Cena, and the WWE has absolutely no problem with it, and they don't try to change it.

While Punk's not playing the hero like you might expect from someone like Cena, he's definitely not the heel.

I didn't call him a heel. All I said is that he's definitely not the babyface.

 

[Slyfox696]

Before Montreal. Owen was in the ring and Austin went to the ring all surrounded by cops. Vince went in the ring to tell him he can't do that and can't compete. Aw hell I'll just post it for you. Bad quality but whatever.

[YOUTUBE]E_c3w6kJmpk[/YOUTUBE]

There's a lot going on in that video. McMahon's words make it seem like he's trying to do the right thing, but it doesn't really fit with the rest of the video. For example, you say Owen was in the ring, and at this time, Owen was part of the Canadian stable which were heels in America, do I have the timing correct (I'm guessing so, since it is obviously after Summerslam)? Thus, Owen was a heel, so why is Vince McMahon protecting a heel? Furthermore, Jerry Lawler was a heel commentator back in those days, and he tells Austin to listen to McMahon.

Finally, look at Austin's words. "This is what I do for a living". So McMahon is protecting a foreigner heel, a policy Lawler agrees with, which prevents Austin from making a living.

Without any idea of anything else going on around the time, I think you can use that video as a great example of the transition Austin was making towards becoming a babyface.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

It does if Cena and Punk draws, and as xfear said, babyfaces deserve more credit for it.

You're being a bit too technical, aren't you? If fans are cheering for both, both are drawing.

I don't know if they want him to be cheered as much as they don't care if he's not booed. I think the WWE is going the same way with Punk they've gone with Cena over the last couple years. They put a character out there, and let fans cheer or boo them how they want, just as long as the character is getting a reaction.

The WWE hasn't cared about Cena getting booed in years. Sure, they book him as a babyface, but they don't protect his character from getting booed. The announcers all note it, Cena has addressed it several times over the years, they put him in a feud with Rock, etc.

I agree with this. They stopped protecting Cena, for the most part, roughly two years ago. Well, whenever Cole stopped calling him "controversial."

The WWE is going with a "legit" style of booking (think MMA) and just putting a character out there for fans to decide on their own if they want to cheer or boo, as long as they pay money to see it. I think they're doing the same thing with Punk now.

Well, whatever it is, this certainly isn't the beginning of a "new era" in professional wrestling. I can't stand John Cena, and would love to see a another guy on top. However, that's not happening, and I really hope the majority of Punk fans aren't getting too hyped up over something that isn't happening. While I don't see Cena as being irreplaceable, WWE isn't ready to move forward without him being the top guy, or so it would seem.

I mean, why should any fan in the audience cheer for Punk? What has Punk's character done to deserve any cheers? Absolutely nothing. Punk's character has done some very questionable things. There's really no reason for people to cheer him, just like there's no reason for people to boo Cena's character. But fans do cheer Punk and do boo Cena, and the WWE has absolutely no problem with it, and they don't try to change it.

Punk's the anti-Cena. I think you underestimate how much Cena haters hate John Cena. Some of that hate is kayfabe driven, but most is real. They genuinely believe he's awful at what he does. The demand for a second "top guy" is there, I firmly believe that.

 

[MrHashasheen]

If I remember correctly, did Punk not blast his fans in his first promo? I almost want to say he did, but am too lazy to go back and look.

He blasted the people who ask him to sign memorabilia, I think.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

He blasted the people who ask him to sign memorabilia, I think.

You quoted the wrong person.....

EDIT: I didn't quote it properly. Sly actually said that.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

Since when has the world become black and white?

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

They're both being booked as babyfaces, but on opposite ends of the "babyface spectrum"..... if that makes sense.

I think maybe idealists would describe them better.

Cena's promos during this angle (and I think maybe back when he was feuding with Barret and facing being fired) have touched on the fact how much he loves the WWE, being champ, being a hero to his fans, without necessarily seeing eye to eye or agreeing with those in charge and the direction they are going. By doing these things, he's keeping his usual fans on his side and not making the feud with Punk a personal one.

Punk has been an idealist a few times before in his WWE run and this is the next big step for him. The SES was an idealism over lifestyle, New Nexus was essentially his gang trying to remove a top face from the Main Event scene in Orton as he felt he should be there. Now with Cena, it's not so much being in the Main Event scene as trying to steer the company in the way he thinks it should go; breaking the monotony/status quo of Cena as the top dog, 'proper' wrestlers getting the credit they deserve in a sports entertainment company etc.

What has the audience cheering for both is that they are standing up for how they feel the company should go on and both connect with different members of the audience. Cena stands for the traditionalists of WWE and the wholesome family entertainment aspect, whereas Punk stands for a more edgier product that makes people think of the Attitude Era. That's what I'm taking from it anyway.

 

[Slyfox696]

You're being a bit too technical, aren't you? If fans are cheering for both, both are drawing.

It was a joke, Nick. The winky face should have tipped you off.

I agree with this. They stopped protecting Cena, for the most part, roughly two years ago. Well, whenever Cole stopped calling him "controversial."

They stopped protecting Cena was back in 2006. Edge, Triple H, RVD, Sabu during the ECW start-up, HBK at WM 23...the WWE hasn't cared about it in years.

Well, whatever it is, this certainly isn't the beginning of a "new era" in professional wrestling. I can't stand John Cena, and would love to see a another guy on top. However, that's not happening, and I really hope the majority of Punk fans aren't getting too hyped up over something that isn't happening. While I don't see Cena as being irreplaceable, WWE isn't ready to move forward without him being the top guy, or so it would seem.

Everyone is replaceable. However, just because they are replaceable, it doesn't mean they can be replaced with someone as good.

If Cena were to leave tomorrow, his spot could be replaced, but there's really no one to replace the money he brings in, at least not yet. As I showed xfear, when he questioned Cena's effect on the WWE, the WWE has become very prosperous since Cena stepped into the spotlight. Now, part of that is certainly due to other factors besides Cena, but Cena also has played a significant part in it as well.

Punk's the anti-Cena. I think you underestimate how much Cena haters hate John Cena. Some of that hate is kayfabe driven, but most is real. They genuinely believe he's awful at what he does. The demand for a second "top guy" is there, I firmly believe that.

I've been debating John Cena for five years now, I assure you I don't underestimate anything at all.

However, as I said, a babyface is not determined by cheering or booing of a crowd, but rather what the character stands for. In that, Punk's not a babyface. At all. Punk's character is selfish, manipulative, whiny, disrespectful and even at times egotistical. The fact people cheer him for it doesn't mean he's a good person, it just means there are people who cheer him. Keep in mind, many of these fans are the same ones who cheered for Edge over Cena, when just a year previous they despised him for cheating on his wife with Matt Hardy's fiancee.

Punk is not a good person (in terms of his character), he's only cared about himself. I think the WWE is starting to transition his character (I noticed a couple of things which seemed to reflect that in Monday's promo, but couldn't tell you what they were right now), but at this point, he's definitely not a babyface.

Since when has the world become black and white?

Not long after the entire IWC criticized Russo for his shades of grey.

 

[H33LTurn]

If you make a storyline that only the 10% (no offense to the IWC) understands, then what do you expect? I think WWE is destined to stay in the 3.0 spot until the newer generations are old enough to take an interest into wrestling.

 

[X]

I'd say a whole hell of a lot more than just 10% of the audience understands all the aspects of this CM Punk angle. I mean come on, the commentary team has been putting over how "controversial" Cena is to explain the boos since all the way back in 2006. Anyone who has watched the WWE for more than a few months is able to see and hear the mixed reactions Cena gets and understand why alot of people boo him. Shit, Cena has gone out of his way himself to try and explain it in promos for years now too.

This "10%" myth bullshit needs to end, that theory died 90% of people on the planet acquired the internet at the touch of a button in their phone, at their home, on their TVs or anywhere else. A whole hell of a lot more people use the internet than did back in the 90s when that theory came to fruition. The business and it's fanbase has evolved, and I'd love to see some of the people here understand that and accept it.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Sly, you say that being cheered doesn't make you a face. However, look what happened to Randy Orton. He was almost condemned to be a heel, he wasn't doing exactly the "right things" (and still isn't) yet he is was/is booked as a babyface. After all he is the face of SD!

I think that with time this COULD (big "could") happen with CM Punk if he is being booked properly. Plus don't you think that in some way he is doing the "right thing" since he came back? After all, he is defending the championship.

I agree with you Sly, Punk isn't face nor heel, at least not since his return. However I can see him becoming slowly a babyface, much like they did with Orton.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, you say that being cheered doesn't make you a face. However, look what happened to Randy Orton. He was almost condemned to be a heel, he wasn't doing exactly the "right things" (and still isn't) yet he is was/is booked as a babyface. After all he is the face of SD!

I think that with time this COULD (big "could") happen with CM Punk if he is being booked properly. Plus don't you think that in some way he is doing the "right thing" since he came back? After all, he is defending the championship.

I agree with you Sly, Punk isn't face nor heel, at least not since his return. However I can see him becoming slowly a babyface, much like they did with Orton.

Surely you don't believe Orton's character now is the same that was putting guys like Shawn Michaels out of action a few years ago, do you?

Orton is nothing like he once was. Orton is far more a babyface character now than he was when the fans started cheering him.

 

[a0161613]

Orton's changed his behaviour massively. Sure he is still cold and unstable etc but the simple fact that he reacts to the fans makes him a face and a good one at that. I'm expecting Punk to be made a face in the same way because he isn't Vince's favourite type or style of wrestler.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Surely you don't believe Orton's character now is the same that was putting guys like Shawn Michaels out of action a few years ago, do you?

Orton is nothing like he once was. Orton is far more a babyface character now than he was when the fans started cheering him.

Of course, but I'm talking about the transition period. For Orton was around the split of Legacy around the Ruble of that year.

I think this could be a transition period for Punk from heel, to whatever he is now to face. Obviously much more slower than Orton's transition.