So much for that CM Punk will draw ratings thing...

[DirtyJosé]

Punk's shirt does seem to be doing well enough if you look in the crowd, but if people are only buying them at live events, they're probably not selling very many overall. It will take time to see how well his merch moves over time.

I mentioned it only because WWE's online shop announced it had to delay the release of the shirt on the site due to extremely high demand. It's not everyday something like that happens.

 

[Coco]

Canada loves quality wrestling.

Toronto has the weirdest hard-on for Randy Orton. I hate that.

 

[ZeroVX]

Toronto has the weirdest hard-on for Randy Orton. I hate that.

One of the many reasons most other Canadians look down on Toronto.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Toronto are my broskis. Yes, we also like Zack Ryder. Apparently.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Toronto has the weirdest hard-on for Randy Orton. I hate that.

What's weird about rooting for a great wrestler?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Triple H isn't a guy who can carry the brand on his back, so things stopped dead.\.

actually led the WWE to its most fiscally succeasfull year they have ever had, with no rock or Austin in sight.


ok anyways, continue guys

 

[Smartie]

Look in my eyes, What do you see?

 

[X]

actually led the WWE to its most fiscally succeasfull year they have ever had, with no rock or Austin in sight.


ok anyways, continue guys

Hmm? I assume you're talking about 2000, and The Rock was obviously a huge part of that year just as much as Hunter was.

Trips was a golden god in 2000 though. Hands down probably my favorite era for any heel ever. I despised that man so much that I would want to punch my TV watching RAW back then. He played the unstoppable dick heel to perfection that year.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

200 or 2001, cant recall. Mcmahon-Helmsely era. whichever one it was.

 

[X]

Yeah, 2000. The Rock was definitely a major part of the company that year though bro, I'd say it was just as much The Rock as it was Triple H drawing all that money...in fact I'd say it was more The Rock since the babyface is always the bigger draw. That said, he still owned that fucking year and 2000 in my book is the year of Triple H.

 

[Slyfox696]

in fact I'd say it was more The Rock since the babyface is always the bigger draw.

So if Punk vs. Cena does good business, we can give more of the credit to Cena, but if they don't do good business, we can blame it on Punk, right?

 

[X]

So if Punk vs. Cena does good business, we can give more of the credit to Cena, but if they don't do good business, we can blame it on Punk, right?

Well no, because Punk isn't being booked as the heel in this feud and Cena isn't being booked as the babyface. It's the exact opposite if anything.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Well no, because Punk isn't being booked as the heel in this feud and Cena isn't being booked as the babyface. It's the exact opposite if anything.

They're both being booked as babyfaces, but on opposite ends of the "babyface spectrum"..... if that makes sense.

 

[CH David]

They're both being booked as babyfaces, but on opposite ends of the "babyface spectrum"..... if that makes sense.

Punk is anti-establishment and Cena is the company boy. More or less anyway.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Punk is anti-establishment and Cena is the company boy. More or less anyway.

Right, and both are babyfaces. Punk speaks for the "voiceless," and Cena is still a hero.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well no, because Punk isn't being booked as the heel in this feud and Cena isn't being booked as the babyface. It's the exact opposite if anything.

They're both being booked as babyfaces, but on opposite ends of the "babyface spectrum"..... if that makes sense.

While Punk may be getting cheered, and the WWE may be promoting that, Punk is far from a babyface. He said his the business would be better if his boss were dead, aired dirty laundry, promoted another wrestling company, had outrageous contract demands, threatened to leave the company with its most prized possession, has shown no respect for the authority in the company, etc.

The WWE has no problem booking him to get cheered, but he's far from being a babyface. Cena, on the other hand, is easily the babyface. He's standing up for "what's right", he's supports his fans, he's defending the honor of the company, etc.

Cena is most definitely the babyface in this. Call Punk a tweener, if you will, but nothing about his current character's evolution is babyface.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

While Punk may be getting cheered, and the WWE may be promoting that, Punk is far from a babyface. He talked crap about his bosses, aired dirty laundry, promoted another wrestling company, had outrageous contract demands, threatened to leave the company with its most prized possession, has shown no respect for the authority in the company, etc.

The WWE has no problem booking him to get cheered, but he's far from being a babyface. Cena, on the other hand, is easily the babyface. He's standing up for "what's right", he's supports his fans, he's defending the honor of the company, etc.

Cena is most definitely the babyface in this. Call Punk a tweener, if you will, but nothing about his current character's evolution is babyface.

This is your black-and-white definition of what a babyface is. That died in the mid-to-late 90's.

 

[CH David]

What the WWE needs is a seemingly insurmountable villain for Cena or whoever to face. Hogan had Andre and Austin had the Corporation. Get that, and stay with the basics and people will come watch. Sly says good vs. evil draws. Give them David vs. Goliath for a third time.

 

[Slyfox696]

This is your black-and-white definition of what a babyface is. That died in the mid-to-late 90's.

I disagree, I feel that's such a myth.

Steve Austin and the Rock were very much babyfaces during their good guy runs. They did things that were "the right" things to do. Such examples which come to my mind quickly are both of their interactions with the loveable Mick Foley, Austin's saving Steph McMahon even though he hated her father, etc. Hell, even Austin's feud with McMahon was seen as good vs. evil, since the McMahon character built itself into an "evil boss", which is different than what Punk is dealing with.

Punk has done nothing of the sort. Punk's character has done little other than whine and tell everyone what the problem is about everything (I'm speaking objectively about his character, don't take that the wrong way). Punk has done nothing for no one, he credits no one, he gives thanks to no one.

The ONLY way Punk can be considered a face is that people agree with him. Cult leaders have commoners agree with them as well, that doesn't make them good guys. Punk has done nothing which indicates he's a babyface, other than complain about things he doesn't like, which some of the fans agree with him on. But if those fans didn't agree with him, his character would say the same things just the same.

That's not a babyface, by any stretch of the imagination. A tweener? Perhaps, but not a babyface.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Steve Austin and the Rock were very much babyfaces during their good guy runs. They did things that were "the right" things to do. Such examples which come to my mind quickly are both of their interactions with the loveable Mick Foley, Austin's saving Steph McMahon even though he hated her father, etc. Hell, even Austin's feud with McMahon was seen as good vs. evil, since the McMahon character built itself into an "evil boss", which is different than what Punk is dealing with.

Punk has done nothing of the sort. Punk's character has done little other than whine and tell everyone what the problem is about everything (I'm speaking objectively about his character, don't take that the wrong way). Punk has done nothing for no one, he credits no one, he gives thanks to no one.

The ONLY way Punk can be considered a face is that people agree with him. Cult leaders have commoners agree with them as well, that doesn't make them good guys. Punk has done nothing which indicates he's a babyface, other than complain about things he doesn't like, which some of the fans agree with him on. But if those fans didn't agree with him, his character would say the same things just the same.

That's not a babyface, by any stretch of the imagination. A tweener? Sure, but not a babyface.

I don't disagree with anything you've said about what the Punk character is doing. He's not fighting the good fight, he's not a "good" person. However, a good portion of the audience respects that. They literally see Cena as the heel. They believe he never earned his spot, and is being kept in it by those in power. I don't believe that's accurate, but that's a common belief. Basically, Punk's the underdog, in their eyes.

I used to separate tweener and babyface, but in reality, they receive the same reaction. If a portion of the audience identifies with his cause, believes in it, and supports it, I think that's him being a babyface.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't disagree with anything you've said about what the Punk character is doing. He's not fighting the good fight, he's not a "good" person. However, a good portion of the audience respects that. They literally see Cena as the heel. They believe he never earned his spot, and is being kept in it by those in power. I don't believe that's accurate, but that's a common belief. Basically, Punk's the underdog, in their eyes.

I used to separate tweener and babyface, but in reality, they receive the same reaction. If a portion of the audience identifies with his cause, believes in it, and supports it, I think that's him being a babyface.

That's not really the definition of a babyface, nor has it ever really been. A babyface's character will do things because it's the right thing to do, or in other words, because the crowd believes it's the right thing to do. For example, Austin saving Steph. Punk's not doing what he's doing because people cheer him, people cheer him because what he's doing. It may be a small difference in wording, but a big difference in classification.

If I remember correctly, did Punk not blast his fans in his first promo? I almost want to say he did, but am too lazy to go back and look. That's not at all a babyface thing to do. Has he once ever done anything which doesn't benefit him? Everything Punk's character is doing, he's done for his own selfish reasons, because he feels he's been slighted over the years. I mean, he even took Cena's congratulations, and twisted it into a reason to dislike Cena.

Punk may be getting cheered by some fans, but that doesn't mean he's a babyface.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

That's not really the definition of a babyface, nor has it ever really been. A babyface's character will do things because it's the right thing to do, or in other words, because the crowd believes it's the right thing to do. For example, Austin saving Steph. Punk's not doing what he's doing because people cheer him, people cheer him because what he's doing. It may be a small difference in wording, but a big difference in classification.

I'm saying the definition has changed over the years. "Babyface" doesn't mean now what it meant in 1988. That's what I'm saying.

If I remember correctly, did Punk not blast his fans in his first promo? I almost want to say he did, but am too lazy to go back and look.

He did. However, this angle is evolving. I don't think Vince and company knew exactly where this was going before that first promo.

That's not at all a babyface thing to do. Has he once ever done anything which doesn't benefit him? Everything Punk's character is doing, he's done for his own selfish reasons, because he feels he's been slighted over the years. I mean, he even took Cena's congratulations, and twisted it into a reason to dislike Cena.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong about how Punk is acting, what he's saying, etc. You're right, 100%. However, fans have changed, or at least a good portion of them have. They react different to certain kinds of characters, much differently from what they would have done in the 1980's. Get with the times, Sly

Punk may be getting cheered by some fans, but that doesn't mean he's a babyface.

Well, Cena is booed by a lot of fans, that doesn't mean he's a heel

 

[Remy LaCroix]

Babyface? Heel? Tweener?! More like cult leader who has me at the palm of his hand with his every word.

 

[CH David]

That's not really the definition of a babyface, nor has it ever really been. A babyface's character will do things because it's the right thing to do, or in other words, because the crowd believes it's the right thing to do. For example, Austin saving Steph. Punk's not doing what he's doing because people cheer him, people cheer him because what he's doing. It may be a small difference in wording, but a big difference in classification..

Well what about Austin stunning Vince for the first time? Legit question. Was that doing what the crowd thought was right?

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm saying the definition has changed over the years. "Babyface" doesn't mean now what it meant in 1988. That's what I'm saying.

Sure it does, why wouldn't it?

He did. However, this angle is evolving. I don't think Vince and company knew exactly where this was going before that first promo.

I suspect they had a clue. I seriously doubt they let Punk say what he said without having a plan.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong about how Punk is acting, what he's saying, etc. You're right, 100%. However, fans have changed, or at least a good portion of them have. They react different to certain kinds of characters, much differently from what they would have done in the 1980's. Get with the times, Sly

You seem to equating getting cheered with being a babyface. That is not true, nor has it ever been true.

Getting cheered doesn't make you a babyface.

Well, Cena is booed by a lot of fans, that doesn't mean he's a heel

Again, crowd's cheering or booing don't determine babyface or heel status. Take Shawn Michaels back in '96, for example. Towards the end of his run, HBK was getting booed by fans. That didn't make his character any less of a babyface. Cheers and boos don't determine the disposition of a character. They never have. Generally, babyfaces get cheered and heels get booed, but that doesn't determine if they're a good guy or a bad guy.

Punk's not a good guy. Punk's not a babyface. Punk gets cheers, but he's not a good guy/babyface.