Great point.
I blame Miz. If you put a gun to my head that is. Because I don't believe in blame at this stage of the game.
So much for that CM Punk will draw ratings thing...
- Thread starter Slyfox696
- Start date
I blame Miz. If you put a gun to my head that is. Because I don't believe in blame at this stage of the game.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
I won't watch until Vince is back in charge.
Check back in a couple of weeks.
Depends which "masses" you're referring to. Is it the WWE fan that watches the shows every week but isn't into the IWC? Because I'd say the vast majority of them certainly care about Cena.
Or are you talking about the casual fan? Because I think the casual fans care about awesome spots and cool matches. The casual fan doesn't care about promos or technical prowess in the ring, they want to see some guy fly through the air like a maniac or see a massive superstar throw another titan around like a rag doll. And after they get their jollies watching wrestling, they'll go back to Law and Order SVU, which was on a commercial break. They certainly don't want to watch John Cena and CM Punk talk.
I'm sure you didn't mean it like this, but what you just said is that the IWC are the masses, and those not in the IWC are non-fans.
But I'll tell you what. If we're going to use the forums as an indication of quality and interest in a product, then Zack Ryder must be involved in one hell of a program right now. But he's not, so I dare say Internet forums being "lit up" aren't exactly the best way to determine what the "masses" are into.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
The casual fan is a myth and has been for a few years. There isn't some mystic untapped sizable wrestling audience just sitting around waiting for the right thing to happen so they can tune back in. Almost everyone has the internet.
But almost everyone doesn't come to sites like WrestleZone to find the dirty little secrets going on behind the curtain.
So, the casual fan is still casual, because they aren't the hardcore fan who runs to Internet dirt sheets.
You seriously don't know what the fuck trolling is man. Hint: When the vast majority of people in the thread are on my side of the argument, I'm not trolling anyone.
As much as I hate to say it, I'm with Shattered on this one. The casual fan is a myth. There are a few people like your wife and my dad and such who would stop and watch a few minutes of a match while flipping through the channels, but the second it gets to a promo or backstage segment or surprise announcement, they lose interest and flip the channel back to the baseball game or CSI or to see what food Paula Deen has decided to put underneath butter this week.
They don't care if Triple H comes back to guest host, because they don't know who Triple H is. They don't care if Steve Austin is on Raw, because they didn't watch religiously when he was on television. They don't care if Cena is feuding with The Rock, because all they want to watch is grown men punching each other in the face, and they'll get bored of that after about five minutes and move onto something else. It's not fault of the wrestler's, it's just how television programming works nowadays. If you can't fully drag the viewer in –and few shows can– then the viewer is gonna flip the channel. So unless there is a hell of a dramatic match taking place on Raw, the so called "casual fan" is gonna watch the oily guys grapple with each other, and then they're going to go back to watching some generic crime drama.
They don't care if Triple H comes back to guest host, because they don't know who Triple H is. They don't care if Steve Austin is on Raw, because they didn't watch religiously when he was on television. They don't care if Cena is feuding with The Rock, because all they want to watch is grown men punching each other in the face, and they'll get bored of that after about five minutes and move onto something else. It's not fault of the wrestler's, it's just how television programming works nowadays. If you can't fully drag the viewer in –and few shows can– then the viewer is gonna flip the channel. So unless there is a hell of a dramatic match taking place on Raw, the so called "casual fan" is gonna watch the oily guys grapple with each other, and then they're going to go back to watching some generic crime drama.
A good troll isn't nearly as obvious as you've been. You need to work on your game. And if you TRULY believe you're not trolling, then you're far more delusional than I thought.
Either you're knowingly lying, or you're delusional. Just let me know which it is.
Not sure. I think the IWC is larger than it was 5-8 years ago, but as compared to a year or two ago? I wouldn't say that really. Also, and this is what's far more important, and I'm sure what you really want to know, I don't think the IWC will see significant growth in the near future.
Except I wouldn't categorize the casual fan in such a manner. I would call the casual fan the fan who watches it because it's on, but really has little investment beyond that. A casual fan isn't the channel flipper, but rather the person whom has to be sold a PPV, not one who is going to buy it regardless of the card. A casual fan isn't going to run to the Internet each day to find out which wrestlers have been released.
A casual fan will still watch the show each week, and will still go to a live event, assuming they feel the value will be worth the price. That's how I'd describe the casual fan, and in that, there are millions of them out there.
That's not what I am saying at all. There are two distinct masses of people. On one side of the coin, there are the masses of people who already watch the product anyway. A lot of these people are in the IWC, but not necessarily all of them. These people are very interested in the Punk/Cena angle, but this interest is not reflected in ratings because they were watching anyway before this angle, will continue to watch through it, and will still watch after it's over. Same ratings, but greater buzz amongst those comprising the ratings.
The othe mass of people is those not currently watching. Could be new potential fans, or former fans, or very casual fans, or even those who thing wrestling fans are imbeciles. It is this mass of the population that Punk/Cena are not reaching, so the ratings are not going up, even though interest is being created amongst those watching. Just read what JGlass is saying, he too has it exactly right.
I think forums such as this one are indicators of interest in a product, at least to an extent. People on here are avid fans, if they weren't they wouldn't bother to post here. Their likes and dislikes typify the first group above but not the second. Zack Ryder is an example of what the people already watching like, but he will never translate into ratings as he will never draw one single new fan in. Quality, that's an entirely different story. Just because people are enjoying a story doesn't necessarily mean it's a quality angle.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Regarding the IWC growing, I don't see it either.
At the end of the day, I think most people simply don't care enough about wrestling to go that in depth about it. They watch the show and that's about it. Wrestling shouldn't be something you need to do research to understand or like more than most other stuff. It's meant to be flashy and go by fast enough that you don't think about the problems and holes in stories. There's a huge amount of suspension of disbelief that goes with being a normal fan and I think it makes things easier. You don't have to try to figure out booking or who's going to do what and it can make things a lot more fun. Once you start thinking that it's all fake, it loses a lot of its appeal unless you're a big time fan. Also, most people don't have time to come online and look all this stuff up. It takes time to be this invovled with it and that's not something a lot of people are going to do, more than likely.
At the end of the day, I think most people simply don't care enough about wrestling to go that in depth about it. They watch the show and that's about it. Wrestling shouldn't be something you need to do research to understand or like more than most other stuff. It's meant to be flashy and go by fast enough that you don't think about the problems and holes in stories. There's a huge amount of suspension of disbelief that goes with being a normal fan and I think it makes things easier. You don't have to try to figure out booking or who's going to do what and it can make things a lot more fun. Once you start thinking that it's all fake, it loses a lot of its appeal unless you're a big time fan. Also, most people don't have time to come online and look all this stuff up. It takes time to be this invovled with it and that's not something a lot of people are going to do, more than likely.
In that case, I think the WWE has that version of the casual fan on lock down. If the IWC makes up .5 of this week's 3.1 rating (probably a generous estimate), the casual fan would make up 2.4 or 2.5 of the rating, with the viewers I just described chipping in for the rest of it.
Your casual viewer tunes in every week regardless of what's going in the WWE, because watching Monday Night Raw is part of their weekly television ritual. As you said, the telling factor with them is not the Raw rating, but the PPV buys. We won't know for sure whether CM Punk has been doing well with these casual viewers until we get PPV buyrate statistics.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Sly, why do you think stories based on reality are not stories? Even if you do not get the details they are still stories. The "casual" fans never care about the details whether they are based on reality or scripted.
You seem to make the claim that the important audience now is kids and women AKA Cena fans. Somewhat convenient and arguably not necessarily accurate but I'll leave that much alone for now. By your standard the PG transition was a terrible failure because the ratings continued to drop especially among what used to be the main audience (males 18-49) who were tuning out because they did not get the appeal of what they were seeing. Notice that is who they are targeting here. Not some vague group of people that have no interest in watching wrestling regularly and definitely are not about to start paying good money.
You seem to make the claim that the important audience now is kids and women AKA Cena fans. Somewhat convenient and arguably not necessarily accurate but I'll leave that much alone for now. By your standard the PG transition was a terrible failure because the ratings continued to drop especially among what used to be the main audience (males 18-49) who were tuning out because they did not get the appeal of what they were seeing. Notice that is who they are targeting here. Not some vague group of people that have no interest in watching wrestling regularly and definitely are not about to start paying good money.
I see what you're saying, but answer me this.
What they are doing with Punk is clearly different than what they've done with any other wrestler. Why change your product, just to appeal to those people who are already going to watch regardless, and have done so? You wouldn't, because those fans are already watching what you've been putting on, and by changing the product, you risk alienating them.
So why do you risk alienating those fans? Because by changing the product you're hoping to appeal to a different group of fans who are not currently watching. But, like you said, it's not working. However, it has the potential to do harm to your long term business (as I noted earlier, both in this post and a previous one), so, at best, this angle is negligible, and at worst, it's been harmful.
Agreed, although I will say, if the Summerslam buyrate comes in low, I won't be surprised, and that's not a statement about Punk or Cena, but rather the fragility our economy has displayed over the last week or two.
However, I will go a step further. We won't know whether Punk has been doing well with casual viewers until he's headlining a show with someone not named Cena or Triple H.
But they do care about the reasons two guys are going to fight.
And if those reasons are because guys we have never heard of (Cabana) and guys we don't care about (Kozlov) then we're not interested in this fight. We'll be interested in Cena putting down the guy who has been acting like an ungrateful punk, perhaps, but it's not really personal or unique.
I'm not making that claim at all. Your statement is about as accurate as saying any males from 18-49 are instantly IWC members.
The fact is there are MANY things which factor into whether the company is successful or not. The fact the WWE has continued to make good profits in such a crappy economy is a sign they've done well.
Furthermore, ratings aren't that bad. People tend to compare today's ratings vs. Attitude Era ratings, and the fact is, conditions are just so much different today. A 3.1 or 3.3 rating is still one of the best ratings on cable TV today.
I would not be the least bit surprised if the SummerSlam buyrates don't only take a hit, but take a hard hit due to the economic news this week. People are already in a bit of a panic, and they'll be looking to save $50 anyway they can. That said, we'll still be able to judge a little based on MitB buyrates.
I think the buyrates from MitB and SummerSlam will show us whether the casual fans have accepted CM Punk as a main eventer. We'll see if they can accept him as a 2nd major face type when he has a match against a guy like Miz or Christian.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Are you suggesting that everyone not active in the IWC does not find out any wrestling news?
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Maybe. Then again, we could just as easily say we're judging what shock value does to buyrates.
That's it really. Can he draw when he's not in the ring with Cena? Can he draw when he's working with the same material everyone else in the WWE is? Those are the questions he has to answer.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Can Cena draw if his shirts are made with muted colors?
Champion vs. champion is the reason to get the two back in the ring. But everyone knows this is Punk's angle, his chance to show he belongs in the spotlight.
Punk could leave tomorrow, and the WWE would get a 3.1 for the next year, or so history would tell us.
