Rock only became mega popular cause Austin wasn't around?

[Chris1-16]

Damn you guys are taking this shit way to personal what the fuck. Damn Stone Cold and the Rock are both fucking awesome. We don't need a million facts for this shit do we? I read every fuckin post between you guys and it is seriously what the fuck!!!! Have a beer and eat some pie and chill out. Relax bro's its just wrestling not like you guys are going to win a million fuckin dollars. Damn seriously this makes posting on these forums stupid because everyone has to bitch moan an cry like a school girl pussy on who is right. For one fuck WIKIPEDIA as half the time they seem wrong in my opinon. OH WAIT BASH ME FOR I GAVE MY OPINION RIGHT??? Wanna argue something argue what the fucking defintion of opinion means. Seriously wrestling is fucking fake but your debating it as if it was real and serious. Werstling is wrestling thats what it is.

Now seriously I think the Rock would of gotten big wether Austin was there or not. WHY becuase eventually some one gets old to the eyes of the public so they look for someone new. An also for the fact WWE likes to have a few well known main guys and the Rock was damn good enough to get to the top with or with out Austin.

An for my opinion Austin and Rock are both awesome and two different characters and I like both equally the same. SURE BASH THE FUCK OUT OF ME FOR IT.

Trust me, I was a big Austin fan too, even in 1999. But the whole "Rock would've never been huge if Austin was there" theory is a bunch of crap, he was already surpassing him, whether KB likes it or not.

 

[klunderbunker]

Well, here's what I say about it...

Obviously at the time the Vince McMahon-Austin storyline was still going on, so they had to turn Rock heel for him to get the WWF Title so that way, Austin stays the #1 face, Rock is the WWF Champion, and the McMahon-Austin storyline stays hot.




Rock wasn't booked as the top star. Obviously if Austin was still feuding with Vince after Rock turned face and Rock wasn't a heel anymore both can't be in the main event at the same time. He was feuding and sometimes losing to midcarders (Al Snow anyone!?! And it happened in December '99, when Austin wasn't even there!!!) that year while Austin hardly wrestled anyone under main event level that year. That was the main difference between the way Austin and The Rock were booked in 1999.

You've said this whole not being booked as the top star thing like a dozen times. It doesn't matter what the crowd thinks in things like this. If you're pushed as the top star you're the top star. Austin was the hottest thing in the company in late 96-early 97 but he wasn't the top star until mid 1997 when he was pushed as such. It doesn't work that way. What you're saying is that Rock was a popular upper midcarder, not the face of the company.

 

[Chris1-16]

You've said this whole not being booked as the top star thing like a dozen times. It doesn't matter what the crowd thinks in things like this. If you're pushed as the top star you're the top star. Austin was the hottest thing in the company in late 96-early 97 but he wasn't the top star until mid 1997 when he was pushed as such. It doesn't work that way. What you're saying is that Rock was a popular upper midcarder, not the face of the company.

Rock was already an established main eventer and 3x WWF Champion by November 1999. Smackdown already existed by the time of Survivor Series.

Big difference homboy!

 

[klunderbunker]

Trust me, I was a big Austin fan too, even in 1999. But the whole "Rock would've never been huge if Austin was there" theory is a bunch of crap, he was already surpassing him, whether KB likes it or not.

You show me one instance where I said Rock never would have been a big star and I'll resign as admin right now. Go ahead. Show me. Show me where I said it. I'll save you the time: I never said it or anything close to it. Since the beginning, I've said Rock would be a superstar but with Austin there full time, Rock wouldn't have reached the level he's remembered at now. That's been my whole argument and then somehow we got into some stupid argument about 1999 and how that somehow determined their entire careers and how apparently Austin NEVER could reclaim the top spot or whatever. I have no idea how we got onto this but quit trying to tell me what I've said, because that's nowhere close to it.

 

[Chris1-16]

You show me one instance where I said Rock never would have been a big star and I'll resign as admin right now. Go ahead. Show me. Show me where I said it. I'll save you the time: I never said it or anything close to it. Since the beginning, I've said Rock would be a superstar but with Austin there full time, Rock wouldn't have reached the level he's remembered at now. That's been my whole argument and then somehow we got into some stupid argument about 1999 and how that somehow determined their entire careers and how apparently Austin NEVER could reclaim the top spot or whatever. I have no idea how we got onto this but quit trying to tell me what I've said, because that's nowhere close to it.

He wouldn't have "reached the level he's at now if Austin was around?!"

Where's your magic crystal ball to confirm this? Go head, show me.

 

[klunderbunker]

Rock was already an established main eventer and 3x WWF Champion by November 1999. Smackdown already existed by the time of Survivor Series.

Big difference homboy!

Yeah...and by late 1999 he was feuding with Al Snow and Billy Gunn, like a midcarder. Jack Swagger is a jobber to the stars and he's a former world champion. Dolph Ziggler is feuding with said jobber to the stars and he's a former world champion. What Rock did before means a grand total of nothing on what he was doing in late 1999, which was being in the upper midcard.

 

[Da Truth]

Objectively, Rock is the bigger star, hands down. If he wasn't as big as Austin he wouldn't have been able to cross over into other areas of pop culture like he did. The Rock was on his way to be a big star regardless. The only reason why the Austin looked stronger popularity wise is because he was protected by the company more, and he wasn't willing to job or feud with mid carders or curtain jerkers. The Rock didn't mind feuding and putting over others cause his popularity would not take a hit. Austin couldn't afford to do those things thus showing that the Rock was more popular.

 

[klunderbunker]

He wouldn't have "reached the level he's at now if Austin was around?!"

Where's your magic crystal ball to confirm this?

In the world of logic, where you have never been. For about the 9th time in 2 hours:

Rock would have been a big star. I've never questioned it and I'd be an idiot if I did. Rock reached his peak in 2000 when he feuded over the summer with HHH. Again, this is fact based on any way you want to look at it. The difference being that Austin wasn't there. You take Austin out, Rock shoots up into the stratosphere of superstardom. Austin may have slipped a bit beneath Rock in late 99, but he wouldn't have been far behind going into 2000. He would have been the other superstar and with him there, Rock would have been having to compete with him for the top spot. With Rock on top by himself, he was able to reach the place he's regarded at now: the third biggest star ever. With Austin still there, he'd probably be in the top ten or even top seven, but I doubt he'd get as high as he did.

 

[Chris1-16]

Yeah...and by late 1999 he was feuding with Al Snow and Billy Gunn, like a midcarder. Jack Swagger is a jobber to the stars and he's a former world champion. Dolph Ziggler is feuding with said jobber to the stars and he's a former world champion. What Rock did before means a grand total of nothing on what he was doing in late 1999, which was being in the upper midcard.

There were hardly any heel main eventers in December 1999, just HHH and that's it. Since he was feuding with Vince, there were no other options for Rock.

In the world of logic, where you have never been. For about the 9th time in 2 hours:

Rock would have been a big star. I've never questioned it and I'd be an idiot if I did. Rock reached his peak in 2000 when he feuded over the summer with HHH. Again, this is fact based on any way you want to look at it. The difference being that Austin wasn't there. You take Austin out, Rock shoots up into the stratosphere of superstardom. Austin may have slipped a bit beneath Rock in late 99, but he wouldn't have been far behind going into 2000. He would have been the other superstar and with him there, Rock would have been having to compete with him for the top spot. With Rock on top by himself, he was able to reach the place he's regarded at now: the third biggest star ever. With Austin still there, he'd probably be in the top ten or even top seven, but I doubt he'd get as high as he did.

Where's your crystal ball to confirm this?

 

[SickJames]

Objectively, Rock is the bigger star, hands down. If he wasn't as big as Austin he wouldn't have been able to cross over into other areas of pop culture like he did. The Rock was on his way to be a big star regardless. The only reason why the Austin looked stronger popularity wise is because he was protected by the company more, and he wasn't willing to job or feud with mid carders or curtain jerkers. The Rock didn't mind feuding and putting over others cause his popularity would not take a hit. Austin couldn't afford to do those things thus showing that the Rock was more popular.

Goddamn dude, nice job, you killed it all in one post while a few guys went back and forth for pages, this fact beats all others and Rock cant be compared to Warrior at all, you may as well say there were two Top guys like a 2 headed snake fighting for top spot. But anyway your short paragraph is highly accurate and that alone should kill the whole argument.

 

[klunderbunker]

There were hardly any heel main eventers in December 1999, just HHH and that's it. Since he was feuding with Vince, there were no other options for Rock.

This is true for the most part and they did indeed mishandle Rock during this period. I'm still not sure why they went with Big Show as champion but that's another point. Rock came off as an upper midcarder at this point because of who he was feuding with, in the form of the Outlaws in a pretty pointless tag team feud. I know he was incredibly popular, but he was in fact in the upper midcard.

Where's your crystal ball to confirm this?

*sigh* you're one of those idiots. "You can't prove this so I'm right!" I had such hope for you too.

Anyway since I already answered this once, I'll do it again more slowly: Austin big, Rock not quite as big, Austin take up space, Rock can't have Austin's space, Austin leave, Rock take Austin space and get big.

 

[Chris1-16]

This is true for the most part and they did indeed mishandle Rock during this period. I'm still not sure why they went with Big Show as champion but that's another point. Rock came off as an upper midcarder at this point because of who he was feuding with, in the form of the Outlaws in a pretty pointless tag team feud. I know he was incredibly popular, but he was in fact in the upper midcard.

And that wasn't his fault, the main event scene was very limited at the time.

He was a main eventer, the heel main eventers were just very low, he didn't have a choice. When Vince McMahon is main eventing against HHH, that's how "great" the main event scene was at the time.

*sigh* you're one of those idiots. "You can't prove this so I'm right!" I had such hope for you too.

Anyway since I already answered this once, I'll do it again more slowly: Austin big, Rock not quite as big, Austin take up space, Rock can't have Austin's space, Austin leave, Rock take Austin space and get big.

How was The Rock "not quite as big" by Survivor Series 1999? It's obvious that he was. We are talking November 1999 here, not 1998, when Austin was the hottest draw in wrestling.

 

[klunderbunker]

And that wasn't his fault, the main event scene was very limited at the time.

He was a main eventer, the heel main eventers were just very low, he didn't have a choice. When Vince McMahon is main eventing against HHH, that's how "great" the main event scene was at the time.

Did I say it was his fault?

So in other words, Vince thought the money was in himself rather than Rock? That shows how much faith they had in him at this point. They didn't put the title on him at Mania either. They waited until Austin could be there to give Rock the rub because, again, Austin was the big deal back then.

 

[This Is My Name Thank You]

Damn just stop will ya. It is like fighting about the most useless thing guys. Your making it seem like its religion or politics seriously. It rock and austin. Sooner or later Rock was going to become Huge no matter what you say or not. Rock just had the it factor. Rock isn't my favorite nor is Austin but I respect them both for the were entertaing. Why take this thing so far. Just settle as you both make valid points but are killing the whole meaning of an OPINION. Chill guys no need for this. AUSTIN, ROCK, HOGAN, TRIPS are the biggest names ever in the WWE hows that sound??

 

[Chris1-16]

Did I say it was his fault?

So in other words, Vince thought the money was in himself rather than Rock? That shows how much faith they had in him at this point. They didn't put the title on him at Mania either. They waited until Austin could be there to give Rock the rub because, again, Austin was the big deal back then.

Because they didn't want him to outshine Austin! Remember, it was supposed to be Austin's era, but Rock just happened to get cheered and they turned him face.

 

[klunderbunker]

Because they didn't want him to outshine Austin! Remember, it was supposed to be Austin's era, but Rock just happened to get cheered and they turned him face.

....you mean the Austin that was on the shelf for the entire time period I just listed? Austin came back in April to give Rock said rub when he interfered in the main event at Backlash. They needed him to take Austin's place at that point to fill in the gap he left.

 

[Chris1-16]

....you mean the Austin that was on the shelf for the entire time period I just listed? Austin came back in April to give Rock said rub when he interfered in the main event at Backlash. They needed him to take Austin's place at that point to fill in the gap he left.

Throughout '99 when Rock was a face too obviously. Did you forget that Rock wasn't a face the entire year? Of course you can go back in time and say "Rock was just taking Austin's place when Austin was gone", that's revisionist history.

Austin just happened to get his injury before the year was over, how do you know that Austin would've still been the top face if he hadn't left, maybe he wouldn't have.

 

[klunderbunker]

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I was referring to after Austin was injured and Vince feuded with HHH. Rock won the title at backlash 2000 when Austin made an appearance and helped him win the title. No idea what in the world you're talking about with 1999 though.

 

[Chris1-16]

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I was referring to after Austin was injured and Vince feuded with HHH. Rock won the title at backlash 2000 when Austin made an appearance and helped him win the title. No idea what in the world you're talking about with 1999 though.

What were you saying when you said "the Austin that was on the shelf for the time period I listed"?

 

[klunderbunker]

Here:

So in other words, Vince thought the money was in himself rather than Rock? That shows how much faith they had in him at this point. They didn't put the title on him at Mania either. They waited until Austin could be there to give Rock the rub because, again, Austin was the big deal back then.

I'm talking about post Survivor Series 99 where Austin was written out of the stories. Austin came back for one night in April when Rock finally beat HHH for the title at Backlash, helping him win it. The period in between, including Mania and the time where Vince was the top face, was when Austin was still probably the most popular guy, partially because no one knew when he was going to come back. I don't think anyone knew it would be a year. Rock hadn't had the big title win as a face yet and Austin came back to give him the rub, almost like passing the torch at Backlash. That's what I'm referring to. Now after that, yeah absolutely Rock was the top face and would be until Austin came back and then it was pretty back and forth over who the top guy was until Mania 17.

 

[Chris1-16]

Here:



I'm talking about post Survivor Series 99 where Austin was written out of the stories. Austin came back for one night in April when Rock finally beat HHH for the title at Backlash, helping him win it. The period in between, including Mania and the time where Vince was the top face, was when Austin was still probably the most popular guy, partially because no one knew when he was going to come back. I don't think anyone knew it would be a year. Rock hadn't had the big title win as a face yet and Austin came back to give him the rub, almost like passing the torch at Backlash. That's what I'm referring to. Now after that, yeah absolutely Rock was the top face and would be until Austin came back and then it was pretty back and forth over who the top guy was until Mania 17.

What makes you think Austin would've still been the most popular guy if he hadn't left, see that's revisonist history. Nobody knows what would've happened.

Of course the fans were gonna cheer for Austin's return, he'd been off TV for a while. Same thing happened to The Rock when he took time off in 2001. Same thing goes with any major star that's away for an extended period of time. It's happened with Undertaker, HHH, Mick Foley, Hogan, etc.

 

[klunderbunker]

What makes you think Austin would've still been the most popular guy if he hadn't left, see that's revisonist history. Nobody knows what would've happened.

Of course the fans were gonna cheer for Austin's return, he'd been off TV for a while. Same thing happened to The Rock when he took time off in 2001. Same thing goes with any major star that's away for an extended period of time. It's happened with Undertaker, HHH, Mick Foley, Hogan, etc.

You do realize you're doing the same thing right? I could just as easily say "what makes you think Rock would be the most popular guy if Austin stayed"? The difference is, I've given logical reasons as to why that's happened. You've pointed to some numbers about house shows with a certain number of people there and say that's enough plus he wasn't booked as top face or whatever else.

I think you answered your own question in the second part. Austin got a big pop because he came back. In other words, he was popular again and probably moreso than Rock. In other words, something can change quickly to make someone bigger again. Austin had the track record of being that big of a star while Rock simply didn't yet. That's why I'd go with Austin as being the safer bet. Also, let's say Rock was the bigger star going into 2000 and Austin doesn't leave. Can you really say that Austin would be miles behind Rock? That doesn't make sense. He'd be right there with him because even a cooled down Austin is bigger than most stars ever.

 

[Chris1-16]

You do realize you're doing the same thing right? I could just as easily say "what makes you think Rock would be the most popular guy if Austin stayed"? The difference is, I've given logical reasons as to why that's happened. You've pointed to some numbers about house shows with a certain number of people there and say that's enough plus he wasn't booked as top face or whatever else.

I think you answered your own question in the second part. Austin got a big pop because he came back. In other words, he was popular again and probably moreso than Rock. In other words, something can change quickly to make someone bigger again. Austin had the track record of being that big of a star while Rock simply didn't yet. That's why I'd go with Austin as being the safer bet. Also, let's say Rock was the bigger star going into 2000 and Austin doesn't leave. Can you really say that Austin would be miles behind Rock? That doesn't make sense. He'd be right there with him because even a cooled down Austin is bigger than most stars ever.

I never ever said Austin would've been miles behind. I simply said "how do you know Austin would've still been the most popular guy if he hadn't left? I never even said Rock was a "bigger star" than Austin from late 1999-on. I mean was Austin a bigger star than Undertaker in 1998? No he wasn't, he was just the more popular of the 2 big stars.

I guess we both like to get the last word huh?

 

[klunderbunker]

I never ever said Austin would've been miles behind. I simply said "how do you know Austin would've still been the most popular guy if he hadn't left?

I guess we both like to get the last word huh?

And that ends the debate.

By saying Austin wouldn't be miles behind, that means he'd be right there with Rock. How can Rock, who is indeed one of the best ever and the 3rd biggest star ever, be considered the best ever if he couldn't escape from Austin's shadow at this point? Austin would be right there with him as at worst the second biggest star in the company. How big can Rock get if he can't even definitively be the biggest star at that time? With Austin completely gone for as long as he was, Rock could be looked at as the guy and reach the level he's seen at now instead of a lower one like what HHH or Cena or HBK is at. That's what I've been trying to get across all along

I mean was Austin a bigger star than Undertaker in 1998? No he wasn't

Ok, NOW i'm done because this is the most absurd thing I have read on here in a long time. Austin wasn't just a bigger star than Undertaker in 1998. His beer cans were probably bigger than Undertaker. This right here proves my theory that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I'm done. There's no point in arguing this anymore because you flat out don't get wrestling if you think this is true.

 

[Chris1-16]

And that ends the debate.

By saying Austin wouldn't be miles behind, that means he'd be right there with Rock. How can Rock, who is indeed one of the best ever and the 3rd biggest star ever, be considered the best ever if he couldn't escape from Austin's shadow at this point? Austin would be right there with him as at worst the second biggest star in the company. How big can Rock get if he can't even definitively be the biggest star at that time? With Austin completely gone for as long as he was, Rock could be looked at as the guy and reach the level he's seen at now instead of a lower one like what HHH or Cena or HBK is at. That's what I've been trying to get across all along.

Ok, NOW i'm done because this is the most absurd thing I have read on here in a long time. Austin wasn't just a bigger star than Undertaker in 1998. His beer cans were probably bigger than Undertaker. This right here proves my theory that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I'm done. There's no point in arguing this anymore because you flat out don't get wrestling if you think this is true.

The same way HHH was "right there" with The Rock when Austin was gone, and just like Undertaker was "right there" with Austin as a heel. That's just the way it is.


AND THAT'S ALL I GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT!

Ok, NOW i'm done because this is the most absurd thing I have read on here in a long time. Austin wasn't just a bigger star than Undertaker in 1998. His beer cans were probably bigger than Undertaker. This right here proves my theory that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I'm done. There's no point in arguing this anymore because you flat out don't get wrestling if you think this is true.

See ya, go and get da steppin partna!

How was Austin that much of a bigger star than Undertaker in 1998 when Undertaker was a main eventer long before Austin? There's a big difference between a bigger star and a bigger draw. Compared to say D-lo Brown in 1998, Austin was the bigger star, compared to Undertaker, he was probably the more popular star and bigger draw, you like to debate so much, shouldn't you know this? You think that Summerslam '98 buyrate was from Austin himself? Get real! Austin was a hot at the time, but he needed another big star to draw that big of a buyrate. What, did you think that Jeff Jarrett vs. Austin would done 700,000 buys? OH HELL NO!