[On The Air]: Official CH David Thread

[Ferbian]

I hope you don't mind us carrying out a debate in here CH?

 

[CH David]

More power to ya lol. I'm just posting stuff in here as well.

 

[Ferbian]

Good, I don't want to do it if you're not cool with it. I can quickly make another thread for it to take place in if it's a problem.

 

[CH David]

Nah don't worry about it. It's all good.

Dear lord listen to these pops for Austin.

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[Mr. Steve]

I wouldn't know whether the video leaked. But even with that it's a dangerous act to perform to allow fans to bring weapons. I've heard of that in CZW where they had people bring those long lightbulb things that could blind you. Hell I saw someone in a picture using a one of those grass cutting machines that you can hold in your hands and not drive around with.

But there's a difference between that, and ECW. Foley had no idea it was cast iron. Besides, it's one thing to go full force with what you think is a planted weapon, and another to basically take a weed whacker and ram it to a dude's stomach on a backyard match.

Sure he might have seen a better product in it. But in the end, was it really? Doubt it. Because they're out of business.Jim Cornette created Smokey Mountains for a better product, was it? No. It was a developmental territory.

Yeah, but now you're just comparing apples to oranges. ECW outlasted SWM, and it's because of Heyman being attuned to the times better than Cornette. Cornette wanted Old-School, Heyman wanted anything but.

ECW's problem wasn't what it was doing in the ring, it's what happened outside. Too much money being pulled, and not enough money coming in to recover it. Not to mention it could have done better given that it was formed in the right time.

Every promotion has a loyal following in some way or another. Look at the amount of fans WWE still has even with those that disagree with the product. Watching simply because it still is the superior product.

The ECW fans are just above what should really be considered loyal and devoted. More like addicted to violence and blood.

Not so. Still keep in mind that ECW pandered to the Lucha Libre aspect, as well as Puro. ECW fans popped for Rey, Jericho, and Benoit. Another example is Kurt Angle when he feuded with Orton at that time.

You're right in some term or another. But, you missed the mark in saying that ECDub fans wanted only blood and violence. They saw more than that in the later part of ECW's time.

Stone Cold was created in ECW. But he was nothing until WWE with that storyline for example. Beautiful people is arguably better in WWE as LayCool. It's rehashing all over. But some does it better than others. WWE primarily has done a better part in it. Read the thread D-man created about it.

Didn't mean that....Did you happen to imply that "Evolution was a better rehasing of the faction" storyline than the 4 fuckin' horsemen.

And it's ridiculous. Because the forum members on here manage to do it just dandy in their every day. Mark Madden just made it official what the majority is thinking, with some other words.

It's more of a "It's not what you said, it's how you said it." situation.

I don't truly care about the style. I'm just mostly for grappling and suplex machines. RVD not so much. There's a lot of grappling if dealt with properly that can catch people's attention. Shawn vs Kurt Angle, Benoit vs Guerrero, Guerrero vs 2 Cold Scorpio. Hell even Shawn vs John Cena in London.

But sometimes, grappling doesn't grab the attention of the fans. You must compensate for it. All those people could compensate when it wasn't going over well.

True that. But his style is very Ric Flair ish. I would consider Flair somewhat of a grappler.

I would place Flair in "This dude's a heel". He'll win if you can, lose if he must, but he will always cheat. He's a showman; a guy that's better known for his front face bump once he starts to strut off the corner. He's the guy that's known for his "woo's" rather than his holds.

Triple H doesn't carry Flair's style. I could have given you AA, but I can't give you Flair.

Sure Samoa Joe might be a close second hand Taz but he's just not the same. The brutality and booking and style is all the same. But he just doesn't do it for me like Taz does.

Agreed. But Joe can stand out on his own...if TNA doesn't keep fucking up and book right.

Exactly they mangled it. And then Tommy on TNA goes out to cry that his friends were fired? He should be glad he got the championship at his age. As well as the fact that he actually got to stay there. Primarily because he weren't one to shoot. RVD also could've stuck around because he was over. But the rest were awful. I heard Sabu was fired because he was too dangerous with botches here and there.

Sabu and RVD would have no place in today's WWE. Mainly since WWECW just died. They'd be like Dreamer: Members of an old promotion that Vince bought to amp his legacy up. For Dreamer, it was the end of line. Why be called the Heart and Soul of ECW if there is no ECW? It just proved that the TNA-ECDub revival storyline that's on-going speaks for TNA itself: it's going the same way one day soon.

And sure it wasn't out of favor. And I'm sure they were allowed to do it. As well as Eric Bischoff and all the "crusaders" were perfectly fine with it. I'm sure Bischoff and Heyman shook hands backstage afterwards. Because in the end, why work with someone you truly hate. And to openly state it on television? You don't do that. You handle it backstage.

Again, it comes down to the fact that it happened to tickle the fancy of the people there. They went rabid, they went apeshit, and loved the segment from beginning to end. It made the ppv all the more watchable since, to me, there was the factor of "will a riot break out?" going on. But I bet that Bischoff and Heyman hold no ill feeling towards one another.

I mean Matt probably hated Edge and Lita for what they did. But did Matt ever once drop Edge on his head in a purposed botch? No. Because they dealt with it backstage. He's a professional. And I'm sure the ECW guys were as well.

True. But, they are aware that should they even show some slight legit hate and botch on purpose, they're out. No questions asked, since I bet Vince won't tolerate it. Those guys were probably told to not fuck up and botch on purpose.

Not as a commissioner, I did not care for him no. He was funny once when interacting with E&C because Christian had to loose weight to defend a championship. I think it was the cruiserweight championship. Or maybe it was the Light Heavyweight championship. Oh well.

It was the LHW. Cruiserweight belt isn't brought in until later, from what I remember. But Foley as the 'Commish was just gold to me. A different change of pace from him going off a HIAC, and/or basically risking his life on a hardcore match.

Yeah I know all of what Heyman did in WWE. It was good and all that. Just never truly liked him. I mean I respect all his accomplishments, I would shake his hand in awe if I met him. But I won't be a fan of his product.
And Heyman wasn't an active on-screen role in ECW. That's what I mean where Stephanie and Bischoff had roles of authority before they stepped up as General Managers in WWE.

True, Heyman didn't have a role in ECW. BUT, Heyman had it in WWF/E. In a way, you could consider it, but we're talking Heyman in relation ECW, and not WWE, so I can't. I concede this one to you.

Agreed, but nonetheless one of my favorite general managers. Be it because she was just that good? Probably.

I concede this point as well.

SIDENOTE: CH.

 

[Ferbian]

But there's a difference between that, and ECW. Foley had no idea it was cast iron. Besides, it's one thing to go full force with what you think is a planted weapon, and another to basically take a weed whacker and ram it to a dude's stomach on a backyard match.

Sure there's a difference. CZW is basically promoting attempted murder. And that's saying it nicely.

And sure I know it's something different. But it's still insane to allow the fans to become so devoted and interactive that there's actually something like this happening. Who's to say some wacko didn't bring an actual weapon to some of these shows. Or something that could kill you? Just because they promoted the interactivity between the fans and the wrestlers?

Yeah, but now you're just comparing apples to oranges. ECW outlasted SWM, and it's because of Heyman being attuned to the times better than Cornette. Cornette wanted Old-School, Heyman wanted anything but.

Sure I know I am, but I'm just stating that both created a promotion for the sake of creating a different and better product. But both are gone now. Heyman wanted violence obviously. He wanted more legitimacy and reality in it. Because let's face it who does really just wrestle their realistic opponent, rather than smacking his head in with a chair?

ECW's problem wasn't what it was doing in the ring, it's what happened outside. Too much money being pulled, and not enough money coming in to recover it. Not to mention it could have done better given that it was formed in the right time.

Yes sure. The in-ring stuff was just a mess. But that's the same problem TNA is doing. Some decent production. But far from good enough to compete, it's still seen as crap by the majority of outsiders, as well as insider when it comes to fans (WWE fans being outsiders and TNA fans insiders). And TNA is hiring talent left and right trying to better their product, failing miserably. But as Heyman has said so many times, if only I had the money Bischoff had.

And sure it could've been doing fine back in the territorial days perhaps. Where money weren't the end all be all because you could basically borrow talent from left and right. Your promotion could've become the more popular one because you presented another product, but with the majority of the same talent. Saving money that way. There weren't ratings and TV deals that needed to be competed for.

Not so. Still keep in mind that ECW pandered to the Lucha Libre aspect, as well as Puro. ECW fans popped for Rey, Jericho, and Benoit. Another example is Kurt Angle when he feuded with Orton at that time.

Lucha Libre only partially I would say. Mind you I didn't watch that much of it. Sure they had the lucha libre wrestlers. But they still had the hardcore brawlers that consisted of the majority of the main event scene. RVD, Taz, Terry Funk, Mick Foley. All brawlers in one way or another.

You're right in some term or another. But, you missed the mark in saying that ECDub fans wanted only blood and violence. They saw more than that in the later part of ECW's time.

Sure they did. But the majority of them seem to be crying out when ECW in WWE became less about violence and blood and more of a WWE / WCW like production. The fans turned on the product as it became less violent, table smashing, head bashing blood tearing cursing and swearing production. Therefore I would say the fans are primarily about violence. And not actual great quality wrestling.

Did you not hear the fans at Extreme Rules 2009 I believe it was, for the ECW match chanting "this is awesome". They sure as hell didn't chant that in regular non hardcore matches.

Didn't mean that....Did you happen to imply that "Evolution was a better rehasing of the faction" storyline than the 4 fuckin' horsemen.

No no don't get me wrong, it's not necessarily a better one. But it sure as hell is a great rehasing. But it's just one of many examples. Evolution is highly regarded in the past. At least by me. But I still regard The Four Horsemen as the better one.

But there's rehashings like, erh. Ask IDR he seems to be great at noticing them. I can't put my finger on them just yet. But I know they're there, I debated on this fact about a week ago.

It's more of a "It's not what you said, it's how you said it." situation.

Again, ridiculous.

But sometimes, grappling doesn't grab the attention of the fans. You must compensate for it. All those people could compensate when it wasn't going over well.

Sure they could. But in the end it doesn't usually pander to everybody. Some like the grappling wrestling, some like the highflying, some obviously like hardcore wrestling. There's always gonna be a difference. But in the end I just prefer the grappling aspect. I prefer a great hold for hold match. But I don't deny a great hardcore match like Jeff Hardy vs Edge at Extreme Rules 2009.

I would place Flair in "This dude's a heel". He'll win if you can, lose if he must, but he will always cheat. He's a showman; a guy that's better known for his front face bump once he starts to strut off the corner. He's the guy that's known for his "woo's" rather than his holds.

Sure. But Flair had heel mannerisms and he was basically a heel no matter how you twist or turn it. He was just very very over. He was the Randy Orton before a tweener turn so to say. He was loved for his mannerisms but he still wrestled all the faces.

In the end of the day, he was the epitome of cockiness and trash talking back in the days. At least from what I've heard him spew out back in the days. He was the NWA answer to WWE's Roddy Piper. Or vice versa, whichever you prefer.

Triple H doesn't carry Flair's style. I could have given you AA, but I can't give you Flair.

I'm not the only one who sees it. Austin saw it, William Regal saw it. Have you watched Triple H's "The Game" DVD?

Agreed. But Joe can stand out on his own...if TNA doesn't keep fucking up and book right.

Sure he can stand on his own. But Taz can as well.

Sabu and RVD would have no place in today's WWE. Mainly since WWECW just died. They'd be like Dreamer: Members of an old promotion that Vince bought to amp his legacy up. For Dreamer, it was the end of line. Why be called the Heart and Soul of ECW if there is no ECW? It just proved that the TNA-ECDub revival storyline that's on-going speaks for TNA itself: it's going the same way one day soon.

RVD could easily have done it in todays WWE. Sabu on the other hand is a lost soul in a world of hurt.

RVD could easily go the WWE way. He managed just fine before ECW was reborn. He wasn't all hardcore wrestling. I would go on to say him and Taz are the perfect examples of wrestlers from ECW that did not necessarily belong there. They could've done much better with WWE or ECW.

Neither of them fully converted though. And I think it's a shame. Taz as a wrestler would've been fucking huge in WWE. Truly a case like few others. A wrestling machine.

Again, it comes down to the fact that it happened to tickle the fancy of the people there. They went rabid, they went apeshit, and loved the segment from beginning to end. It made the ppv all the more watchable since, to me, there was the factor of "will a riot break out?" going on. But I bet that Bischoff and Heyman hold no ill feeling towards one another.

Sure they did. But there weren't any realism to it that hadn't been sorted out backstage. I am very certain of that. Especially due to the fact that these talents went back to working together on a regular basic afterwards. If they had not. I wouldn't have doubted the realism and true hatred spewed that night.

And I doubt a riot would've broken out. At least at 2005, it would've been ridiculous to think that. Especially due to the fact that there were no realistic reason for them to break out in riot. Only at 2006.

True. But, they are aware that should they even show some slight legit hate and botch on purpose, they're out. No questions asked, since I bet Vince won't tolerate it. Those guys were probably told to not fuck up and botch on purpose.

Exactly. And I firmly believe it was sorted backstage. I cannot see how two people could work together on-screen if there's issues between the two of them. I have never seen anybody work on-screen while issues were wide open backstage. Or I might never have heard of it.

It was the LHW. Cruiserweight belt isn't brought in until later, from what I remember. But Foley as the 'Commish was just gold to me. A different change of pace from him going off a HIAC, and/or basically risking his life on a hardcore match.

Yeah I figured. I had a laugh watching Christian dancing around in that chicken suit.

And the risking his life and all that solidifies my argument that the ECW fans damaged the wrestlers of ECW. And the fact that Mick Foley and the majority of ECW was never anything more than hardcore stunt men. I said it in the WZ tournament in an argument over Terry Funk vs Randy Orton I believe. "Terry Funk will never be more to me than a hardcore wrestler in ECW. He should not go above Randy Orton"

True, Heyman didn't have a role in ECW. BUT, Heyman had it in WWF/E. In a way, you could consider it, but we're talking Heyman in relation ECW, and not WWE, so I can't. I concede this one to you.

Exactly. Heyman could've done great on-screen in ECW as well. I would like to think it could even have benefited ECW to have some authority figure on-screen at that time. But I guess for the sake of being different, and the hardcore product - Heyman didn't like the idea of having to book himself with a potential concussion from chairshots every time he appeared on s creen.

By the way Steve. I thank you for this debate. You are truly a pleasure to debate.

 

[CH David]

And the risking his life and all that solidifies my argument that the ECW fans damaged the wrestlers of ECW. And the fact that Mick Foley and the majority of ECW was never anything more than hardcore stunt men. I said it in the WZ tournament in an argument over Terry Funk vs Randy Orton I believe. "Terry Funk will never be more to me than a hardcore wrestler in ECW. He should not go above Randy Orton"

One correction here Ferbs, if I may. Terry Funk was not just a hardcore legend in ECW. He actually went to ECW and reintroduced himself as a hardcore wrestler. In the old days, he was a great wrestler. Hell, Tenta showed his match against Bret Hart in ECW, which had minimum weapons use.

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His career shouldn't be defined by his hardcore style in ECW. He was a great wrestler in the NWA, actually holding the Heavyweight Championship for 14 months. The Funker would wrestle you to death in the old days, which is what people should remember him for as well, not just the hardcore aspect.

 

[Ferbian]

Yeah don't get me wrong I know he was a great wrestler and all that. But the only thing I could ever remember Terry Funk from was watching that video where they showed stuff from ECW. With Terry struggling to get out of bed and then putting on a hardcore wrestling match at the very first ECW Pay Per View.

I believe it was called "Beyond the mat" where they showed old guys and how it functions backstage. Following Mick Foley, Terry Funk and Jake The snake Roberts.

 

[CH David]

Yeah don't get me wrong I know he was a great wrestler and all that. But the only thing I could ever remember Terry Funk from was watching that video where they showed stuff from ECW. With Terry struggling to get out of bed and then putting on a hardcore wrestling match at the very first ECW Pay Per View.

I believe it was called "Beyond the mat" where they showed old guys and how it functions backstage. Following Mick Foley, Terry Funk and Jake The snake Roberts.

Ahh okay. That's how I was for a while. I never knew that Terry Funk was a great NWA wrestler (same with Dory) until reading on here and researching. That is how I now remember both of them, as their great wrestlers, and Terry with the added portion of hardcore.

 

[Ferbian]

I read about him and Dory during the Wrestlezone tournaments. I made sure to browse through their accomplishments and all that on Wikipedia. A rare "top 10 moves" here and there as well for the Japanese wrestlers. And then I mostly just remembered this documentary.

Good one though. Definitely worth watching. You should check it out, I believe it's on Youtube. I also would love to watch Bloodstained Memoirs.

 

[CH David]

I think next year I'll have to push Punk more. This year he was up against a recently inducted Antonio Inoki. Well that and the Japanese always get more praise if they are famous. I loved JMT's first post, I'm pretty sure I repped him for it.

 

[Ferbian]

I got a bit of rep here and there in the first round. I got repped by Dagger Dias every time I made a post for John Cena. And I got repped by Becca for my first post for Shawn Michaels.

 

[Goliath Uterus]

I can't wait till the next tourney, when is it anyway?

 

[Ferbian]

2011.

 

[CH David]

Well you bastard. I didn't get Becca rep. Although I don't think I did much HBK backing.

Alright Ferbs, I'm heading out to ROH right about now. Should be an epic show and I will post my thoughts when I get home. You have a good rest of your night and hopefully talk to you tomorrow, bro.

 

[Ferbian]

I believe I got Becca rep twice in that tournament period. For making the HQ, and for making the argument for Shawn so she didn't need go to all pro defensive. At least that's how I understood it.

Definitely we'll talk tomorrow. enjoy the show my friend!

 

[Mr. Steve]

Ok, yeah, I'm just gonna argue what I can. We're agreeing on most points. Almost blew a gasket on the Evolution point

Sure I know I am, but I'm just stating that both created a promotion for the sake of creating a different and better product. But both are gone now. Heyman wanted violence obviously. He wanted more legitimacy and reality in it. Because let's face it who does really just wrestle their realistic opponent, rather than smacking his head in with a chair?

If you look at it, Heyman wanted the "Counterculture of traditional pro wrestling". How do you do that if you're dong the same thing SMW is doing? For him the answer was simple: He went in the other direction. Doing things that the mainstream of North American Pro wrestling wasn't seeing on a constant basis. Suddenly, you got the two top companies recognizing you (well one of them. WCW pretty much avoided mentioning ECW, and Bischoff was just trying to poach the talent).

SMW didn't do that. It didn't end up higher than a developmental promotion, and it quickly died. ECW could have gone higher had Heyman shared the financial duty with someone else.

Yes sure. The in-ring stuff was just a mess. But that's the same problem TNA is doing. Some decent production. But far from good enough to compete, it's still seen as crap by the majority of outsiders, as well as insider when it comes to fans (WWE fans being outsiders and TNA fans insiders). And TNA is hiring talent left and right trying to better their product, failing miserably. But as Heyman has said so many times, if only I had the money Bischoff had.

But TNA is the inverse. It's got the money, but not the creative direction. Heyman doesn't want to touch it because it's sinking, and fast. Heyman isn't God. He's just the Mad Scientist.

And sure it could've been doing fine back in the territorial days perhaps. Where money weren't the end all be all because you could basically borrow talent from left and right. Your promotion could've become the more popular one because you presented another product, but with the majority of the same talent. Saving money that way. There weren't ratings and TV deals that needed to be competed for.

But you had one promotion trying to outdo the other one for prestige. Back then, "handshake deals" were the norm, and NWA kept them in check.

Lucha Libre only partially I would say. Mind you I didn't watch that much of it. Sure they had the lucha libre wrestlers. But they still had the hardcore brawlers that consisted of the majority of the main event scene. RVD, Taz, Terry Funk, Mick Foley. All brawlers in one way or another.

Don't lump him in that list. CH covered that better than I.

Sure they did. But the majority of them seem to be crying out when ECW in WWE became less about violence and blood and more of a WWE / WCW like production. The fans turned on the product as it became less violent, table smashing, head bashing blood tearing cursing and swearing production. Therefore I would say the fans are primarily about violence. And not actual great quality wrestling.

The problem is, it still bore the ECW name. ECW is originally associated wit Hardcore. With Raven, Sabu, Sandman and his singapore cane. The mentality of that time was "Let it die with its legacy rather than let it live with what it didn't represent."

I'm not the only one who sees it. Austin saw it, William Regal saw it. Have you watched Triple H's "The Game" DVD?

I haven't And somehow, I just can't see Flair's influence on HHH except on Evolution. But, I do see Billy Graham, Kowalski, AA.

RVD could easily have done it in todays WWE. Sabu on the other hand is a lost soul in a world of hurt.

I think not. Remember Kendrick?

RVD could easily go the WWE way. He managed just fine before ECW was reborn. He wasn't all hardcore wrestling. I would go on to say him and Taz are the perfect examples of wrestlers from ECW that did not necessarily belong there. They could've done much better with WWE or ECW.

But RVD needed to clean up his act for it. That one time he got caught with weed while driving with Sabu just nailed his career to the ground. He would have been a liability down the road at some point, I'm sure.

Neither of them fully converted though. And I think it's a shame. Taz as a wrestler would've been fucking huge in WWE. Truly a case like few others. A wrestling machine.

True. But he did good in his job as an announcer. I bet his injuries built up for a while, and he couldn't do much when he got there.

And the risking his life and all that solidifies my argument that the ECW fans damaged the wrestlers of ECW. And the fact that Mick Foley and the majority of ECW was never anything more than hardcore stunt men. I said it in the WZ tournament in an argument over Terry Funk vs Randy Orton I believe. "Terry Funk will never be more to me than a hardcore wrestler in ECW. He should not go above Randy Orton"

I like to think of it as the wrestlers of ECW doing what they did to fuel the fan's fire. The problem was that the fire spread too quickly, and WWF/WCW took notice. And again, Terry Funk

By the way Steve. I thank you for this debate. You are truly a pleasure to debate.

Thanks, man. You'll do fine in the debate league as well.

 

[Ferbian]

Ok, yeah, I'm just gonna argue what I can. We're agreeing on most points. Almost blew a gasket on the Evolution point

You're doing fine man. I can see why you would get a little surprised if I said Evolution was better than The Four Horsemen.

If you look at it, Heyman wanted the "Counterculture of traditional pro wrestling". How do you do that if you're dong the same thing SMW is doing? For him the answer was simple: He went in the other direction. Doing things that the mainstream of North American Pro wrestling wasn't seeing on a constant basis. Suddenly, you got the two top companies recognizing you (well one of them. WCW pretty much avoided mentioning ECW, and Bischoff was just trying to poach the talent).

Sure he was producing a whole different product than Smokey Mountains. But the concept was the same, the idea was the same - Something different. And we got something different. But it wasn't enough to make them huge. Smokey Mountains was very much alike WWE and all that. They could've accomplished things with a mainstream material. Do I think ECW could've done something with a more widespread fanbase and mainstream exposure? Sure. But not in the manners that WWE and WCW was doing it.

There weren't the same kind of shock value. In the end the majority of the product produced was on trying to bash each others skulls with chairs and make the other one bleed a gallon of blood more than you. At least that's how it comes off to me. Not about good wrestling. It was there, but it wasn't the focus point.

And sure it was stated that ECW was the place to go to get noticed for the bigger better places. Tommy even recognized this. Which kinda ruined the Impact thing. He was recognizing that because he saw the similarities in TNA. That in truth they are just there to get WWE to notice them.

They produced decent talent. But in the end they didn't get anywhere. Their legacy will forever be blood and violence. Not the greatest thing you want your promotion to be remembered for right? Rather than great storylines, great matches and some of the greatest talent in the world of wrestling. Legends. WWE, NWA and WCW has this.

And sure ECW has this as well. But not in the same caliber. What did we get of legends that were true to ECW and weren't made legends elsewhere first? Or weren't made legends after ECW? Dreamer, Sabu, Sandman, Taz, RVD (partially) primarily. Not your first hand surefire Hall of Fame induction ceremony am I right?

SMW didn't do that. It didn't end up higher than a developmental promotion, and it quickly died. ECW could have gone higher had Heyman shared the financial duty with someone else.

Sure it could. Don't get me wrong on that. But they sure as hell still wouldn't have been able to compete. They weren't having half the star power that WWE and WCW were having. And do you truly think with a higher pay raise they could acquire this kind of star power? Doubt it. WCW were already paying them buckets of money, and WWE's top talent were loyal fuckers.

But TNA is the inverse. It's got the money, but not the creative direction. Heyman doesn't want to touch it because it's sinking, and fast. Heyman isn't God. He's just the Mad Scientist.

Very well put right there Steve. And I agree, Heyman could probably make wonders of TNA. He could make wonders of any promotion given the right direction and concept. I don't believe a pure hardcore wrestling promotion could've done it though. TNA could do it because they're not all blood and violence. They could probably never compete with WWE with or without Heyman. At least not for a few years. But it could help.

But you had one promotion trying to outdo the other one for prestige. Back then, "handshake deals" were the norm, and NWA kept them in check.

Exactly. ECW could've had just that. Because the money weren't the biggest problem. The talent was available to put on proper wrestling that wasn't needed for hardcore shitstorms. Sure the majority of them couldn't do half the regular match that they could on a hardcore match. But it's a start.

Don't lump him in that list. CH covered that better than I.

It's been done. Can't change the past. Terry Funk remains but a hardcore wrestler to me. That's what I will remember him most for. The same goes for Mick Foley and many others. I will mark them for where I learned of them. That is why I never saw the hardcore in RVD. Because I saw him in WWE first.

The problem is, it still bore the ECW name. ECW is originally associated wit Hardcore. With Raven, Sabu, Sandman and his singapore cane. The mentality of that time was "Let it die with its legacy rather than let it live with what it didn't represent."

Sure. And I respect the fans for wanting that. But in the end, why cry over something that in the end would be inevitable? In the end ECW would've either stayed dead. Or performed more regular wrestling. ECW served a decent purpose in WWE. There's no denying that. The fans are just too stubborn to realize it because nobody is going through a table.

I haven't And somehow, I just can't see Flair's influence on HHH except on Evolution. But, I do see Billy Graham, Kowalski, AA.

Triple H wanted to become a wrestler due to Ric Flair. On the DVD you see a promo of him saying that to Ric in the ring as well "Without Ric Flair, the Man, there wouldn't be no Triple H The Game"

I think not. Remember Kendrick?

Brian Kendrick? Shame he was released. But RVD could've easily made it because look at the difference. RVD was fucking over! Brian Kendrick? A tag team wrestler at best. Or cruiserweight, and where did that go? Oh yeah.

But RVD needed to clean up his act for it. That one time he got caught with weed while driving with Sabu just nailed his career to the ground. He would have been a liability down the road at some point, I'm sure.

Sure he would. But he was still able to perform. Sabu on the other hand was slowly a loosing case. RVD is still on the weed bucket but he's still performing nicely in TNA.

True. But he did good in his job as an announcer. I bet his injuries built up for a while, and he couldn't do much when he got there.

Probably right. Another plus to the tortures ECW gave on the wrestlers body. And how it was completely unneeded. Heyman said it himself about Taz "Look at Taz, he was a wrestling machine. Now he's just a commentator, and not even a good one". That was the shoot he made on Vince, the shoot where Taz ended up choking Heyman out.

I like to think of it as the wrestlers of ECW doing what they did to fuel the fan's fire. The problem was that the fire spread too quickly, and WWF/WCW took notice. And again, Terry Funk

Yes the fire spread too quickly because ECW gave the fans too much of a leash and freedom. The fans controlled ECW for a large part of it. They didn't like you? You were NOTHING. That's another thing for the WWE, you don't get over? WWE wants you over? Championship reign will change that, or you're released. ECW didn't really release anybody I know of. No they kept the guys around.

Thanks, man. You'll do fine in the debate league as well.

I can only hope Steve. I can only hope.

 

[Mr. Steve]

Yeah, I got nothing. I ran out of brain juice

 

[Ferbian]

Ferbian 1. Nah that wouldn't be fair. I'll let you make a return some other time mate. I enjoyed it!

 

[Mr. Steve]

Ferbian 1. Nah that wouldn't be fair. I'll let you make a return some other time mate. I enjoyed it!

We're gonna kick some serious ass in the Debate League...should someone drop out. But take the win in this gentleman's disagreement we got. I shall tip my hat to you sir, and go on about my day with my monocle.

 

[Ferbian]

You're 2nd remaining in the line right? So LJL would be taking over before you. But definitely you would kick ass in there.

It's almost a shame we didn't get a post-count raise for these posts.

 

[Mr. Steve]

You're 2nd remaining in the line right? So LJL would be taking over before you. But definitely you would kick ass in there.

It's almost a shame we didn't get a post-count raise for these posts.

Yeah. I didn't even see Sign Guy's name crossed out. Hopefully, I end up in Alpha, where the magic is made.

Wait...damn it! This could have brought a cool number of hits if it were in a thread. Oh well.

 

[Ferbian]

Alpha? I'm in Omega.

I believe my post-count would've been up by like 8-10 posts in this thread just from quoting you.

 

[Mr. Steve]

Alpha? I'm in Omega.

I believe my post-count would've been up by like 8-10 posts in this thread just from quoting you.

Alpha's where Tenta, JMT, Doc, Ty and Thriller is. Don't get me wrong, I would debate you again, get a chance to debate Riaku and Dave.

I tend to aim high when it comes to debating now.