Hi CH!
[On The Air]: Official CH David Thread
- Thread starter Mr. Steve
- Start date
I tend to think of Heyman as one of the better brilliant minds when it comes to booking. And of course, he was there with Lesnar. Not to mention, he gave fans an alternative to mainstream wrestling with ECW. Mainly, he's quite possibly the only guy around that can un-sink TNA. Not save it; that ship sailed, sank, and is shit on by sharks. He's that good, and that smart.
That, and his on-screen personae was just awesome. Every time he spoke, you just wanted to kick his face in.
I can't like Bischoff. I respect his mind when it comes to booking as well. If would end up being a booker on a promotion, I'd model my style on those two, mainly (no Hogan influence, though).
Sure I don't discredit him as a brilliant mind. But financially he wasn't perfect. Nor was he really that interesting. He never managed to truly go mainstream. And quite frankly I think going mainstream with the stuff he had going on wouldn't have been too big a success either. I never thought highly of ECW. I thought it was garbage like.
He was great on-screen yes. Great on the microphone and all. I liked his shoots, even if they came off as cry baby like because of the "YOU COPIED ME VINCE" shit and bashing Bischoff.
I've always loved Bischoff, my favorite General Manager of all time. Great heel and it showed whenever he was on-screen. Second greatest non wrestling character second to Vince McMahon.
He was great on-screen yes. Great on the microphone and all. I liked his shoots, even if they came off as cry baby like because of the "YOU COPIED ME VINCE" shit and bashing Bischoff.
I've always loved Bischoff, my favorite General Manager of all time. Great heel and it showed whenever he was on-screen. Second greatest non wrestling character second to Vince McMahon.
Not much man. I get the weekend off from classes and mission so I am hanging out at a coffee shop on my kindle, writing down SCW ideas in a notebok. Relaxing.
True. Then again, I just consider it answer to the times. The 90's went on a whole different direction (especially the late 90's), and Heyman saw his chance to put up something on the table. Granted, he sucked (probably still sucks) at the finance aspect, but his booking was solid all around. I think X can give a better perspective on this one rather than me
Somehow, I didn't see them as crybaby. I just saw him as "holy shit, did you really give him a microphone on a ppv?" type deal. I even loved the put downs he gave to all of them. "MATT FREAKIN' HARDY." comes to mind.
This is true too. He played the GM heel role to perfection. Somehow, between him and Regal, the GM role was pretty much a solid part for them. Those guys were examples of how a heel authority/mouthpiece should be played.
Always stellar to get a weekend off and just relax. I'm going to ROH tonight with Thriller.
Lucky. Hope you have fun. Say hi to Bryan Danielson during his surprise unplanned appearence for me 
Lucky. Hope you have fun. Say hi to Bryan Danielson during his surprise unplanned appearence for me
August 15 for me, Doc. August 15.
True. Then again, I just consider it answer to the times. The 90's went on a whole different direction (especially the late 90's), and Heyman saw his chance to put up something on the table. Granted, he sucked (probably still sucks) at the finance aspect, but his booking was solid all around. I think X can give a better perspective on this one rather than me
X probably would yes. I wasn't a fan around that time. But I watched some stuff on youtube and dailymotion (As I've been sure to spread the fact about so that people know how I got knowledge from before 2009). And the product he put forth looked awful at times. The crowd is too damn devoted to that promotion that it's scary.
Yeah I lol'd at Matt Freakin' Hardy "Hide your wifes" and all that. He does put on decent promos. RVD put on a decent promo at that show as well (This is a night where RVD doesn't have a vocabulary limited to cool and dude).
Regal was a great general manager as well. Should've been on Smackdown though instead of Long.
Well, again, it was a huge change from WCW and WWE. And the crowd followed it like a cult, and it made splashes everywhere. It's where Steve Austin took his steps and started to shape the Austin 3:16 character, as well as Jericho, Guerrero, Mysterio, Benoit and Foley had their stints there that made them springboard to bigger and better things. Granted, it had his awful as fuck moments (Mass Transit, the crucifixion, etc.) But it was just something that stemmed from that. And the crowd got so devoted, some years after its defunct, it quickly rose back up the second Vince made a ppv about it.
I really don't whether it was the ppv itself or the atmosphere, but it just gave a real different setting. RVD cut a decent promo, and Heyman just gave the fans what they wanted when he shot on the Crusaders.
I agree with that. Somehow, having a heel GM just gives a better role to play with from the superstars. Look at Vickie, for example. But it would have been good if there was one heel GM and one face GM. But when the chance was there, Regal would have dominated the Smackdown GM role.
And that's why I facepalm the fans. It wasn't a big deal except a bit different production. It didn't have nearly the same crowds that WCW and WWE had. If it had been able to challenge the two companies. Then i would've called it worthy. But it didn't.
And worthy or not. It was still an awful product. The fans were still way too devoted. I mean did you see the video about fans throwing multiple chairs in the ring? Covering the talents?
I'm still not sure what the Crusaders are.
The RVD promo was dull. But it was still different. RVD is just boring overall except for in the ring. And even there I don't find him that interesting.
The promo that did the most to me was Austin nearing the end. As Taz walked to the ring. I marked out for Taz as arguably the only talent I have ever cared remotely about from ECW.
An authority figure is always supposed to be the bad guy. Sure it's stereotyping the moniker because there certainly aren't all bad authority figures and bosses. But it is definitely the one thing that was put forth as the first thing in WWE and WCW.
The General Manager has always been a heel. With exception of Teddy and Tiffany. And let's be honest, Teddy is boring. And the only time I remotely cared about Tiffany was when she bend over in Playboy.
No. I heard things about the "bring your own weapon" match, where the fans brought household items. It's the match where Foley smacked the shit out of Sabu(I can't recall if it was him) with a cast iron pan. The thing is, I doubt it could have gone any higher than what it was when Heyman took full control. If it were someone else taking charge of the numbers, then it could have gone bigger since, again, rabid throngs of fans took to the change and ran with it.
Of course, what little rope was given to fans was just used to hang everyone involved at times, it was something that made the fans interact. Some consider some of the storylines brutal, others extreme (I'll take them both, I'm hardcore!) but it wasn't something that revolved around the company. It just played the things that WCW and WWE haven't touched (HIAC, the hardcore matches, etc.) stemmed from the things that ECW did. In part, ECW is a source of what to do, and more importantly, what not to do in an upcoming promotion.
This is exactly the same thing that will probably happen in TNA if they're not careful. They're even starting to be getting the stigmata of "E-C-Dub" chants. hell, they're the "WWE Recycle Bin and WCW rehash" already, so one more thing to be compared to isn't the best of attributes for them.
Bischoff and JBL and their merry band of WWE guys, that appeared in ONS '05
I can give you this. RVD just needs someone to have a good back and forth with. He's got the tools, but somehow, I can't picture him being nothing that a recurrent mid card guy that can play at the main event at times (much less build a company's direction around him, like in TNA)
I'm very meh towards Taz. Somehow, I prefer him behind the commentary table. Reminds me of Early shades of King. But in the ring, he wasn't half bad at all. And you know damn well that Austin is just solid on a mic every time.
But there comes a point where you need to switch it up. Like you said, not all bosses are bad, as with the fact that not all bosses are good. For every Regal/Bischoff, there's a Foley/Long to counterbalance.
Long..I can get it. Partly, it's because of what I think of the face/heel interaction on a GM role on a show.
Tiffany was actually fitted for the WWECW GM role. Note that it contained a Youth Movement vibe to it, and to me, it made sense that Tiffany be there. Somehow, it was a role that could have made another person other than her, but still, it's something to point out. Would have been badass if Abraham Washington took the job, or someone else that could rock the mic well.
Wasn't aware of that. I just saw the video. And the talent was covered in chairs. Even the ones that were standing got covered. That's rather dangerous more than anything. Throwing a steel chair at someone who usually works around hurting the opponent. It's hard to evade 10 chairs at the time.
Sure I take the hat off for the fan interaction. But there's also a line where you draw how much interaction they have. How much they can truly decide. Trust me, to me it came off as if Paul booked ECW to please the fans. Not for the better product of it.
The same goes for John Cena at One Night Stand 2006. I was damn happy Vince booked RVD to win. Because the building would've been torn to SHREDS.
And don't get me wrong on crediting ECW for a lot of storylines. But it's obvious Vince went on and made them better. Vince has copied a lot of storylines and improved them. Look at Evolution. By far my favorite stable ever, copied from Four Horsemen. Stone Cold in ECW vs WWE. And many other things.
Exactly. Mark Madden had it right on the fucking head "E.C.W" congratulations Dixie, the fans are chanting for a WWE owned product. congratulations. I would green rep Mark Madden if he had made a thread on here about it and not a editorial.
Thank you for clearing that up. Crusaders is an odd word for it though.
Sure he's good at getting a decent match out of you. There's no denying that. But it doesn't make him any more or less interesting for me. I remain to be a fan of the grappling style in Benoit, Guerrero, Triple H, Flair, Jericho, Shawn and Bret.
I liked Taz. And I liked him quite a lot from what I saw of him on Youtube and such. I loved the suplex machine thing. I am 3rd degree mark for suplexes.
And the promo by Austin was great because it basically had a lot of shooting in it. Without being bashing towards WWE. I don't like how just because they're allowed to shoot, that they bash the product that has given them such paychecks and shelter, safety and all that for so long.
Foley, yes I forgot about him. Didn't care about him either.
Agreed.
Sure she was decent, but I never cared for her. Eric and Stephanie are my favorites. At least they were interesting heels with a general manager like knowledge. To counter "Heyman did too" he was never truly an on-screen character.
Yeah, I doubt the video leaked, and besides, it wouldn't be seen very well since it took place in the stands. But yeah, it's a very infamous moment, and it got shed bad rep on the fans since Foley thought it was planted, and went full force with, He said that the thing that let him in on the fact it was real was the sound it made when it hit.
Well, mainly it was,but in a sense, Heyman must have seen that, in your terms, the better product, was probably placed in the hands of the fans. It did good, but again, what rope was sent to them was basically out to choke them with it.
Goes to show, ECW's got a real loyal following. I bet it was a dream to book at times when shit wasn't hitting the fan so much. You got to admit, it's storylines weren't exactly the norm, which brings me to my main topic: It was a huge alternative in a small promotion.
Say what, now?
Thing is, people actually hate on him for calling TNA on its faults. Madden's loud, he's a natural heel (real natural), but he said it best. Dixie's a money mark. Again, they should watch "Rise and Fall of ECW" sometime. Better yet, disassociate with ECDub entirely. Otherwise, McMahon will basically nail them on the head for lulz.
I've heard worse.
I'm a fan of flippies and grappling myself. Spot monkeys always have a spot on my heart, and I will forever mark out to a Hat Trick. But, grappling doesn't always grab the attention of people at times. I tend to favor all those guys, plus Morrison (see that, Norcs??) Miz, Kofi, Jeff, etc.
Just to point this out, I don't consider Trips a Grappler. He's more of a Brawler that can Grapple, given his training with Kowalski.
True. But now, it's something I just see in Samoa Joe, but with a different approach (submission machine). But Taz could work, no doubt about it.
Here's the rub: They mangled the hand that fed them. But, if it were something that was truly out of control, the 'E was in full position to cut the feed, and face the ire of the following that watched it on Television. I doubt it was something that got out of control or anything. It was just a shoot that fell in favor of the fans.
Say what now? Dude was badass in 2000 as the 'Commish. His segments wit hE&C were brilliant.
Well, Heyman was a mouthpiece to Lesnar, a commentator with JR, and hung around as part of the Alliance (Lulz). Whatever chance he had as a on-screen character, he took it, and ran far with it. I'm not discrediting you, I just want you to consider the fact that he did have roles on screen.
As for Stephanie, she did great, but was better at being a Valet.
I loved Foley. Especially when he was messing with E&C since I was such a Hardy Boyz mark back then.
Ideally, there isn't a difference.
Well, that's rather nutless. Gonna let the fans intimidate one into a booking decision?
Your standards for "grappling style" are utter horse shit.
It's what people want to hear and it keeps paycheques rolling in. When you grow up, learn to be appropriately cynical about the wrestling business, and realize that things like "respect" are non-entities and are most often called upon by people who show none themself, then you'll see that such bashing isn't as huge of a deal as you make it out to be.
Some of my thoughts when half-reading your post.
Most of the people who modern fans consider grapplers are, at their core, spot monkies to the same degree as anyone else in the business.
I wouldn't know whether the video leaked. But even with that it's a dangerous act to perform to allow fans to bring weapons. I've heard of that in CZW where they had people bring those long lightbulb things that could blind you. Hell I saw someone in a picture using a one of those grass cutting machines that you can hold in your hands and not drive around with.
Sure he might have seen a better product in it. But in the end, was it really? Doubt it. Because they're out of business.
Jim Cornette created Smokey Mountains for a better product, was it? No. It was a developmental territory.
Every promotion has a loyal following in some way or another. Look at the amount of fans WWE still has even with those that disagree with the product. Watching simply because it still is the superior product.
The ECW fans are just above what should really be considered loyal and devoted. More like addicted to violence and blood.
Stone Cold was created in ECW. But he was nothing until WWE with that storyline for example. Beautiful people is arguably better in WWE as LayCool. It's rehashing all over. But some does it better than others. WWE primarily has done a better part in it. Read the thread D-man created about it.
And it's ridiculous. Because the forum members on here manage to do it just dandy in their every day. Mark Madden just made it official what the majority is thinking, with some other words.
Agreed.
I don't truly care about the style. I'm just mostly for grappling and suplex machines. RVD not so much.
There's a lot of grappling if dealt with properly that can catch people's attention. Shawn vs Kurt Angle, Benoit vs Guerrero, Guerrero vs 2 Cold Scorpio. Hell even Shawn vs John Cena in London.
True that. But his style is very Ric Flair ish. I would consider Flair somewhat of a grappler.
Sure Samoa Joe might be a close second hand Taz but he's just not the same. The brutality and booking and style is all the same. But he just doesn't do it for me like Taz does.
Exactly they mangled it. And then Tommy on TNA goes out to cry that his friends were fired? He should be glad he got the championship at his age. As well as the fact that he actually got to stay there. Primarily because he weren't one to shoot. RVD also could've stuck around because he was over. But the rest were awful. I heard Sabu was fired because he was too dangerous with botches here and there.
And sure it wasn't out of favor. And I'm sure they were allowed to do it. As well as Eric Bischoff and all the "crusaders" were perfectly fine with it. I'm sure Bischoff and Heyman shook hands backstage afterwards. Because in the end, why work with someone you truly hate. And to openly state it on television? You don't do that. You handle it backstage.
I mean Matt probably hated Edge and Lita for what they did. But did Matt ever once drop Edge on his head in a purposed botch? No. Because they dealt with it backstage. He's a professional. And I'm sure the ECW guys were as well.
Not as a commissioner, I did not care for him no. He was funny once when interacting with E&C because Christian had to loose weight to defend a championship. I think it was the cruiserweight championship. Or maybe it was the Light Heavyweight championship. Oh well.
Yeah I know all of what Heyman did in WWE. It was good and all that. Just never truly liked him. I mean I respect all his accomplishments, I would shake his hand in awe if I met him. But I won't be a fan of his product.
And Heyman wasn't an active on-screen role in ECW. That's what I mean where Stephanie and Bischoff had roles of authority before they stepped up as General Managers in WWE.
Agreed, but nonetheless one of my favorite general managers. Be it because she was just that good? Probably.
