Lucha Underground Season Two Discussion

[Skairipa Matrix]

Mundo, Black and Evans winning the Trios Championships may have been my favorite moment of the season so far, and the amount of cheating was good to show how big of scumbags they really are. Though I would've liked the match a little more if End Of The World was the finish instead of having that just be a false finish to set up one more cheating spot.

Can't wait for Cage vs Matanza next week as it should be another badass match. Even if I'd be surprised to see anybody but Pentagon be the one to take the belt off the monster.

 

[@smarkmouth]

There's a couple talking points coming out of this episode, but one that excites me more than others. I just wonder if they have the time left in the season to execute it as terrifically as I hope. That moment, Puma's punt to Johnny's nethers.

Why does this pique my interest? Well, let's talk about Pentagon Jr for a minute.

After spending season one breaking arms, he finally confronted his Master, Vamprio, in a no holds barred blood bath. Since then, Pentagon has instigated conflict with Mil Muertes, had a few stellar matches with Puma, and went on to get his ass handed to him by Matanza. Now, with all this macabre being thrown at you, it's easy to forget how Vamprio would remark about Pentagon from the commentary desk at the first few weeks of season two.. I'm paraphrasing here, but I recall comments along the lines of;

"You have to embrace the darkness before you find the light"

How the Vamp/Pentagon segments have been going, it's easy to lose sight of those original remarks. But is it within the realm of possibility that Pentagon comes though the kendo beatings and wax burnings a better man or, perhaps a twisted version of a better man?

So while Pentagon is potentially on a journey from the darkness to the light, Puma just lost himself in passion and anger. To this point, he has been a stalwart hero, always choosing the righteous path, and now he is flirting with darkness.

In short, Pentagon might be walking from dark to light. Prince Puma might be walking from the light into the darkness. Heading in opposite directions, bound for a head on collision.

What I love about Lucha Underground? The possibilities.

 

[A11oftheLights]

I'm not really sure how i feel about the episode. I started watching it at 1am and fell asleep instantly. Then tried again when I woke up two hours later, only to fall back asleep. Really broke up the pacing so I dont know what to make of it.

Thought Cage vs Matanza was a good match but I never really felt that Cage was going to win. Agree that Puma losing it was good, he's kind of been lost in the shuffle this season (along with quite a few others) so I guess that this gives him a storyline going forward instead of third wheeling it with Azteca & Rey. Speaking of, it was good to see Azteca being keen on going after Matanza because thats what him & rey are meant to be there for. My understanding of it all though is that the crowd wouldnt understand any of the story though so it wouldnt come off as big as it should

 

[Барбоса]

I was not overly impressed with how the LU title match was booked.

I would almost say that Cage was booked as too much of a match for Matanza, who got a little fortunate to hit Wrath of the Gods out of nowhere and escape with his title.

Indeed, I think in his last three matches, Matanza has looked too vulnerable.

 

[@smarkmouth]

I was not overly impressed with how the LU title match was booked.

I would almost say that Cage was booked as too much of a match for Matanza, who got a little fortunate to hit Wrath of the Gods out of nowhere and escape with his title.

Indeed, I think in his last three matches, Matanza has looked too vulnerable.

Agreed. As it's own isolated match, I enjoyed it. But consequentially, Matanza has just about lost all the mystique that he came in with. Sure, he was facing Cage and Mil Muertes, but that's why they should have kept them far apart. Perhaps Chavo should have had the opportunity to choose between defending the GotG title against Cage or hope against hope and try cashing in on Matanza.

And yeah, Wrath of the Gods is just really anti-climactic, regardless if it's a lucky last ditch effort or used in a two-minute squash. I'd almost rather Matanza use the Cobra.

 

[Барбоса]

And yeah, Wrath of the Gods is just really anti-climactic, regardless if it's a lucky last ditch effort or used in a two-minute squash. I'd almost rather Matanza use the Cobra.

I like Wrath of the Gods as a finishing move.

Just not as a move to be hit out of nowhere.

Although I would like Matanza to have a submission move, preferably a Claw hold either to the face or even the heart.

 

[A11oftheLights]

I think with matanza they've tried to book him in a way thats meant to make you say "wow he just faced these two monsters and took a beating and he still won easy" except its come across as him sneaking one out, especially with Mil Muertes beating him to a draw

 

[A11oftheLights]

Can not wait for ultima lucha II, i cant even remember the format from last year was 2 hours across 2 weeks or 3 hours across 2 weeks? Its about to pick up really fast in the next couple of weeks as everything gets put in place.

PENTAGON IS FINALLY BACK!!!! I would have preferred he had picked up the fall but oh well. That 6 v 6 match was great stuff, absolute spot fest but still great. Plus the reveal afterwards that Mil is back was ace.

The tag match felt out of place. Like it should have happened ages ago, before Evans and Black won the belts. Drago still needs a better finisher.

So at Ultima Lucha I'm guessing the card will be

Spoiler

Lotus vs Azteca
Pentagon vs Matanza
Mil vs Cuerno
Marty vs Killshot

I have no idea what happens with Rey, Puma, fenix, the trios titles, ivelise, havoc, mack, sexy star, cage, Drago, aerostar & Texano.
I'm hoping we get
Puma vs Rey
and then something for the trios titles and maybe the gift of the gods for the rest. I cant believe how stacked the card has become

TL;DR: I'm fucking buzzing

 

[@smarkmouth]

Can not wait for ultima lucha II, i cant even remember the format from last year was 2 hours across 2 weeks or 3 hours across 2 weeks? Its about to pick up really fast in the next couple of weeks as everything gets put in place.

I think it was an hour on week one, two hours week two. But yeah, I'm pumped. I have doubts that it will be as magical as UL Uno, but it'll no doubt be a fun evening for wrestling fans.

I liked the nunchucks match much more than I expected. Some cringe-inducing hits, good spots. Loved Evans hanging on the office for dear life, and loved the air guitar with post-production sound effect. But like A11, I wasn't a fan of the timing. Way, way, waaaay overdue for this match.

I was cool with Pentagon not picking up the W. I think that's best reserved for next week. I'm not okay with the preamble with Chavo. What was this nonsense about Chavo being there for Pentagon? Did I miss something?

As formUltima Lucha Dos card predictions, I'm with you for the most part, but here's mine;

Spoiler

Prince Puma vs Rey Mysterio Jr (treated with the same pomp and circumstance WWE treated Rock vs Hogan, Main Event over the championship match)
Matanza vs Pentagon Jr (Championship match, Cero Miedo)
Evans/Black/Mundo vs Cage/Drago/Aerostar (Trios Championship)
Killshot vs Marty the Moth (Dog tags vs Hair wager)
Mil Muertes vs King Cuerno
Black Lotus vs Dragon Azteca JR(Lotus better be remarkable in the ring, because this reeks f let down)

My more obscure predictions;
Sexy Star/Mack vs Kobra Moon/Daga vs Son of Havoc/Ivelisse vs Catrina/Sinestro

TL;DR: I'm fucking buzzing

Cheers!

 

[@smarkmouth]

Voodoo Glow Skulls are a strong opening in my book.

I'm a bit disappointed with Pentagon Jr's story arc. The injury story was strong and set up the stakes nicely, but he should have come back to the Temple as a different person. Not just Matt and Vampiro "seeing more aggression". From a storytelling perspective, that's a cop out to me. Show me, don't tell me. Since this is the same Pentagon that had his back broken, he's treading water. If there are pragmatic reasons for his absence, than I might retract this, but his momentum took a hit in all this.

Vampiro's not helping much either. What's going on here? Even as an inactive competitor, his growth is so damn vital in Pentagon's lore. More than anything, I wish LU would pull him from the desk and let him be Pentagon's manager.

Overall, the Six to Survive match was fun. I wasn't expecting a one-match card. I think it should have maybe been a Fatal Four eliminations match or Triple threat. The smaller the match got, the better it was. By the time it was only Pentagon Jr. and Fenix, as excellent as they were, I was more than a little burnt out. Can't help but think if three or four luchadors were contained in the last half of the program I would have been more eager for the finish.

That being said, I don't want to take away from the last half the match itself. Pentagon, Fenix and Mundo were excellent on this program, and even though I'm not big on Taya, her presence and alliance with Mundo added to the story. Once more, I like Ivelisse and love King Cuerno, but they were filler personified in this particular match. I think it should have been a fatal four way, set up by an 8-man tag last week, or something along those lines.

Last note, on the subject of Ivelisse; did they pull the plug on her and Catrina? Looks like we're getting Taya/Ivie. Don't get me wrong, I think that will be a better match, but they've been setting up Catrina/Ivie since halfway through season one. Seems like a shame that it's not on the table anymore.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Thought it was stupid that this filled out a whole episode with only 6 while Aztec Warfare fits 20 into one episode. The problem i have with Mil Muertes is that there is no struggle for Catrina to revive him she just does it and in return he gets a different look and is supposedly unbeatable once more. This episode was crap (storyline wise), you knew pentagon was winning and you knew mil was coming for cuerno. There wasnt anything surprising about the episode at all

 

[Барбоса]

Since his return, Pentagon hasn't been booked in any way like someone who can dethrone Matanza. No different to the guy who was squashed and had his back broken by the champ.

He needed to dominate the 6 on 6 and then run roughshod through the Six to Survive. Instead, he was lost in the melee of the former and struggled to win the latter.

As for Cuerno, I would not have had him beaten down and pinned. A more Undertaker-like entrance by Mil, with Catrina having him wheeled out in the trophy case only to revive him, scaring the bejesus out of Cuerno, allowing someone like Mundo or Ivelisse to roll him up.

 

[@smarkmouth]

Thought it was stupid that this filled out a whole episode with only 6 while Aztec Warfare fits 20 into one episode. The problem i have with Mil Muertes is that there is no struggle for Catrina to revive him she just does it and in return he gets a different look and is supposedly unbeatable once more. This episode was crap (storyline wise), you knew pentagon was winning and you knew mil was coming for cuerno. There wasnt anything surprising about the episode at all

Personally, I have no issue with predictable results. Often, it's the most logical route. I'd rather a predictable finish that makes sense than a surprise that makes none. My issue with it all was it's execution.

Since his return, Pentagon hasn't been booked in any way like someone who can dethrone Matanza. No different to the guy who was squashed and had his back broken by the champ.

He needed to dominate the 6 on 6 and then run roughshod through the Six to Survive. Instead, he was lost in the melee of the former and struggled to win the latter.

This is exactly how I feel. Not evolving Pentagon was a mistake. I wouldn't even say he needed to be running roughshod. They could have booked him in this match as unbreakable. Everyone should have hit him with his finish, and he kicks out of all of it. That could have easily been the guy who could face Matanza.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Personally, I have no issue with predictable results. Often, it's the most logical route. I'd rather a predictable finish that makes sense than a surprise that makes none. My issue with it all was it's execution.

i think its an issue when its the only match on the card

 

[@smarkmouth]

In my eyes, best episode in awhile. It was a bare bones, back to basics episode. I had a great time watching.

As I say that, the top of the show was questionable. Who is Night Claw? Why this gets a C- from me is because I worry this is Matanza all over again, but without the full season and a half build up. If Night Claw shows up and wins the Gift of the Gods, he better be an absolute stud! Suspicious debut is suspicious.

I also might have preferred an alternative to Gift of the Gods, as we've had one as recently as four episodes ago. That was a doubt I had going in, but I was sold by the end of the night. First, Daga beats Mascarita. I'm still unsure about why I should give a crap about Daga and Kobra Moon. Seriously, is Bengala unavailable? That doesn't matter though. Mascarita's loss is the story here. Famous B's turn was absolutely one of the top moments of this season. I'd love to see him take on a new manager that fits his "Get FAME" aesthetic, but only after he eats a one on one loss from Mascarita. Okay match, great aftermath.

They've confirmed Lotus/Azteca. I have doubts here. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief with intergender wrestling, but only after you establish the woman in question as a competent fighter. That might be sexist, but it's also storytelling 101. Nobody in the Temple will care for the match unless we believe going in Lotus has a chance, ESPECIALLY if she's going in as the heel.

The Trios match was quintessentially Lucha Underground in the best possible way. Everyone played their parts to a tee, took the stakes seriously, and it was also fun storytelling. Marty and Killshot extend their feud, which will carry into the GotG match. Killshot has a physical intensity, but Marty sells this feud! While I'm not a fan of the "YouPornPlex" that Joey Ryan is parading on the indies, I like how he doesn't sell lowblows. It's great!

I'm very tired of Matt treating Sexy Star like she's the face of women's wrestling in the Temple, especially when Ivelisse is RIGHT THERE! Nonetheless, a great match! I was skeptical going in, thinking the Trios should have been the main event, but this was damn good as well!

I would like someone to explain this gesture to me, though; what is Sexy doing? Is she selling perfume? Is she shooting webshooters at Taya? What?

I don't care if Pentagon/Matanza is for the championship, Prince Puma vs Rey Mysterio Jr is absolutely the main event of Ultima Lucha Dos. It won't be topped.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Seems like such a weird time to bring in a new luchador with such a strong character. Honestly wasnt impressed by the whole look either. Looks like he'll be a sort of Anti-Prince Puma. Pressure is on for immediate performance as has been pointed out.

The medallion matches arent great, they just feel thrown together and i dont buy any of them winning it, sure they're alright and progress the subplot stories but I just find it hard to care about it when it seems really obvious that old mate Nightclaw or whatever he's name was will win. Which as was discussed last week, the predictability wouldnt be an issue if it wasnt for the fact that they given us basically a random character with no reason to care.

Puma vs Rey. Will be amazing, thats all that needs to be said. Has Puma worn the black kit before? Think it would have been better if he turned heel first

 

[Black Anaconda Vise]

Fine show.

Night Claw brings in high expectations. Debuting at Ultima Lucha, automatically in the GotG match, and there's the history between him and Puma. He looks alright, sorta strange, but that whole altered voice shtick has got to go.

Mascarita vs Daga was more of an angle than a match, I thought it kinda sucked. Mascarita hit his spots but Daga was never really in any trouble. The finish was stupid, I may need to rewatch but it looked like the ref was looking right at Sagrada who was blatantly tapping before Daga turned him so the ref couldn't see him. I don't give a shit about Daga and Kobra Moon, but the Famous B turn at the end was awesome. I'm hoping be brings in someone big at Ultima Lucha.

Azteca vs Lotus is official, and I have low expectations. Azteca is fine in the ring, but the problem is, there haven't been a lot of good intergender matches in Lucha Underground. A few, but not a lot. Obviously the general basis of wrestling is to make your moves look good without them actually hurting. But the thing is, the guys seem to really pull back in these matches, and I'm not saying they should go out of their way to beat the shit out of women, but when Striker constantly talks about "there's no gender barriers here", they can't be so timid or else it looks fake and it gets boring and it makes that statement look stupid, granted Striker says a lot of stupid things.

Trios match was awesome. Cisco, Marty and Killshot looked especially impressive. Thank god they gave Killshot a gimmick/backstory this season and prior, he was just a guy. Marty is so uncomfortably creepy, fat, and ugly that it's perfect. Joey Ryan being immune to all attacks to the penis is also awesome. Lots of good storytelling and overall a really good match.

Women's match was good, although i still think Ivelisse should've gotten in. She's easily the most impressive woman on the roster right now.

We have Daga, Sexy Star, Mariposa, Night Claw, Marty, Sinestro de la Muerte, and Killshot. My guess is that Night Claw wins and if he doesn't, that'd be kinda stupid but if not, it'll probably be Star tapping out Mariposa or something.

Puma vs Rey will be awesome and no matter what goes on last, this will be the best match on the show and the "true" main event.

Looks to be a good Ultima Lucha this year.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Is the Gift of the gods a ladder match again?

 

[Black Anaconda Vise]

Just watched Ultima Lucha part 1. For me, it was a pretty entertaining show, but it just seemed weird having three No DQ matches in a row. They were all relatively different enough though and it works with Dario just wanting violence.

Mack vs Cage was pretty fun. Both are big guys that can move pretty quickly which allows them to do some power spots but also some faster-paced things which is nice. The spot with the bleachers looked like it hurt like hell, as did the shot with the poster. I wasn't a fan of the finish with Cage slipping on beer, but overall the match was some good fun and a good opener. Probably better than their match last year.

Son of Havoc vs Texano was alright, not bad, but not good as the previous match. There were some pretty gnarly looking spots though, the backdrop into the bar and the finish into all the broken glass looked painful. Both guys looked pretty cool, and Son of Havoc is just a guy who is so easy to get behind. He started as a comedy jobber and after some wins, people started getting behind him and he's been getting better and better.

The previous two matches were basically just weapon shots and fun spots and all that, but Mack vs Son of Havoc was more of an actual wrestling match. Mack's corkscrew off the top and the rope neckbreaker were both cool, but other than that, I had to rewatch because I honestly didn't remember a thing about it. It was a fine wrestling match, but not as memorable after you have two longer hardcore matches. Stipulation basically meant nothing.

I figured something was up as it'd seem weird to decide next year's main-event of the biggest show already. Son of Havoc looked so genuinely disappointed and it was awesome.

I haven't seen any of Dr Wagner Jr, but I've heard of him. He looks pretty good and moves well for a guy who's 50, at least compared to Blue Demon Jr. Match was a squash basically and there was no chance Havoc would win. It's not even a big deal but when Wagner Jr had to roll from one side of the ring to the other to get in position for the shooting star, it kind of bugged me, but oh well.

Good start to UL. I think this one may surpass last year's.

EDIT: One more thing: My god did Striker suck. Granted, that's a given, but seriously, I cannot stand the man. It's bad enough with the RAW commentators going off on tangents, but when you have Striker yelling out random words strung together, it's just annoying. Although, I must admit, I didn't mind him so much during the finals match with his whole thing about "you don't have to be big". I still have a soft spot in my heart for Vampiro though.

 

[A11oftheLights]

I dont think Cage slipped on beer striker just fucking made it part of the story, Mack simply moved out of the way and capitalised on the shock one would have from putting their foot through a cinder block

Am glad Havoc got screwed over. Idiot for not taking the $250k when he should have the confidence of becoming champ before UL3. But I dont think Doctor Wagner Jr fits with Famous B

 

[Black Anaconda Vise]

So apparently this Nightclaw fellow is also wrestled as Octagon Jr in AAA and as Flamita in Dragon Gate. Meltzer's opinions can be taken with a grain of salt, but he's said this guy is one of the best in the world.

Here's a match with him (as Octagon Jr), Pentagon Jr, Fenix, and El Hijo de Fantasma (King Cuerno) in case anyone is interested.

[YOUTUBE]fvN72NCl2do[/YOUTUBE]

 

[@smarkmouth]

Two weeks ago was a nice continuation of what I loved about season one. Somewhat of a return to form for the program. I've enjoyed season two, but it hasn't had that magic that season one launched with. They hit their stride at the right moment, going into Ultima Lucho Dos.

So Part 1, the "4 a Unique Opportunity" episode, I''m with BAV. Three No DQ matches was a bit much. Or maybe it was just the "bar brawl" that was out of place. Perhaps it could have just been a Falls Count Anywhere tournament. The matches themselves stood on their own feet, though. I think it should have been spaced out over all three parts of this season finale.

I liked the conclusion, and appreciate how much stock they've put into Famous B, as he's been one of the breakout stars of the season. I'm surprised, though not disappointed, that Famous B's Ultima Lucha moment did not involve Mascarita.

Anyone have any predictions for the remaining two episodes? I know people here might be thinking Sexy Star is going to win Gift of the Gods, but I'm really hoping that Marty the Moth takes it.

 

[@smarkmouth]

Oh, Marty, you were so close!

I really enjoyed the Gift of the Gods match. Going in, I was apprehensive that we'd be revisiting Aztec Warfare and the shiny new toy was going to win. By mid match, I was enchanted by Night Claw. He won me over, especially with that moonsault. What a dude. I would have been accepting of his win. Character-ly speaking, I'm happy Sexy Star won. I love the strong female character archetype when it's done well, and that applies here. However, I was troubled by how particularly bad she was in this match. She was clunky, and her timing was off. But then again, she had one of Lucha Underground's best matches this season. Perhaps she just doesn't thrive in that multi wrestler environment. Very good match, all in all.

Death Match, meh. Underwhelming, anticlimactic. I hate saying that, because Mil and Cuerno are two of my favorites. Frankly, their match from a few weeks ago was far, far better.

Now, let's talk about visuals for a second. I am a strong believer, that when dealing with the visual medium, show the audience something, don't tell them. I may have said that in a previous post in this thread, I'm not sure. I am certain that I voiced my displeasure in how they've handled Vampiro thus far, this season. While that's still true, the business of him pouring his pills in the trash was awesome! The absolute best "in ring" segment they've produced thus far. In fact, I wish he was seen popping pills through the season. That would have added credence to this moment, but it was an awesome scene, nonetheless.

Actually sad about Mr. Cisco. The Crew was starting to get some organic reaction if the post production is to be believed. RIP Cisco

Side note; We're nearing the end of the season! Yaz, you haven't weighed in in some time. C'mon man, game time!

 

[Black Anaconda Vise]

Just finished parte Dos.

Gift of the Gods match was fun for the most part. Melissa Santos's change of tone when introducing Marty and Mariposa was a nice little touch. I've said this many times before, but Marty is so weird but awesome and his trucks are so disgustingly small on him. Nightclaw looked fine but not impressive... and then he hit the moonsault off the office. His sequence with Killshot was quite good, but the setup to the moonsault seemed to take too long with everyone just standing there looking at him for too long. Still a good spot, but jesus if you're wearing black tights don't wear white compression shorts.

Killshot was awesome in this match, the fireman's carry thing to Mariposa on the apron was cool. Daga is someone who has just been kinda meh to me, but he was awesome in this match as well. Then we got down to three and the match just started to take a dump. Something seemed off, the spots were slower and not quite as fluid, and it was just weird. Once Mariposa was out, it got better though, as pissed off Sexy Star is awesome. Sexy Star is this season's Son of Havoc/Angelico/Ivelisse in the sense that she started off meh, but by the end of the season really grew on everyone in the temple and finally got her redemption in a feel-good moment.

Mil vs Cuerno was good, but the ending wasn't very good. Mil hates Cuerno so much so he just beat the living hell out of him and it was fun to watch. There was lots of good crowd brawling and christ is Mil a beast, he sprinted down those stairs to get to Cuerno quick, but the match sort of lacked a really big spot that would give it its moment at the final show if that makes any sense. The three powerbombs through the table were devastating, but we knew Cuerno was dead and it was quite anti-climatic as DW said. I wasn't a fan of the crowbar spot and then ending a death match with a finisher on the canvas in the ring, they should have ended it with a bigger spot. Fine match, Cuerno got enough offense in so it wasn't totally a squash, but my God did Mil kill this poor dude.

The short little Vampiro segment was awesome, I love his character and how he switches between Ian and Vampiro. Good stuff.

Then there was the ending segment, all I can say is wow. Shame they killed Cisco, the Crew was starting to grow on me and like DW mentioned, the crowd was starting to get behind them too. I'm very curious to see where this goes, last year's Ultima Lucha segment was awesome, so I'm very pumped for this year's. plus, the card for the next show is really good, Puma vs Rey will definitely be the show-stealer

 

[A11oftheLights]

Based on the booking of gift of the gods I feel like night claw is just going to be another luchador, which would be fine if they hadnt given him this potentially amazing backstory. The crowd seemed really weird in the match. Lots of near falls for two where they just remained silent but then they were hot for the spots and were chanting for individuals frequently too.

Death match was a shit match. It really felt like there was no story at all (or at best very little story) to the match and the two just went from spot to spot just trying to make the match awesome.

Cop storyline continues to intrigue. It disappointed me the way they went about the segment with Dario just straight up picking it. Would have been nice for Cisco to just make himself a double agent or something like that.

Really looking forward to the Vampiro we should have had for the last 6 weeks or so.