"It Didn't Matter Who Won!"

[IrishCanadian25]

Inspired by the following quote from my colonel, the artist formerly known as HBK-aholic in the Shawn Michaels thread of the Best Two Series:

You picked what was my first choice; that being Wrestlemania 21 against Angle. I've never seen a match as good as that, and I doubt I will again. Match of the night, match of the year, match of the business, easily. And you can expect no less really, coming from 2 of the most talented wrestlers in the business. I think this match cemented in our brains that Shawn had returned, and was as good as he ever had been. Even his loss in this match means nothing, people rarely discuss that when talking about this match - it's almost irrelavant.

Think about that. A match SO GOOD, that the winner of it was totally irrelevent.

And it got me thinking - how many other matches were either so good or so important, that the winner of the match did not matter at all?

Since this thread was based around the epic that was Michaels vs Angle at Wrestlemania 21, we'll take that as gospel and move on.

Undertaker vs Mankind, HIAC

Yes, Undertaker won that match. And sure, it allowed him to regain the "Undertaker will do anything to hurt an opponent" persona. But in essence, this win did nothing to launch 'Taker into the WWF Title picture. If anything, the match benefitted Foley by reminding fans of just what a hardcore legend does.

The three major spots in the match - the toss off the cell, the toss through the cell, and the chokeslam onto the tacks - coupled with the fact that Foley kept getting up, is what really mattered in this match, and the fact that Taker got his hand raised didn't mean a thing.

The Hardyz vs Edge and Christian, No Mercy 1999

Before Benoit vs Booker, these two teams competed in a best-of-five series put together by Terri Runnells for a bag of cash. After finishing 6 very good matches tied 2-2, the men were given a 5th match at No Mercy - the first ever Tag Team Ladder Match. Few remember, but Jeff grabbed the bag of money for the win after a match that meant so much more. All four of these men have now held some sort of World Title - Edge (6 WHC / WWE), Jeff (1 WWE), Christian (1 NWA), and Matt (1 ECW). They have gone on to compete in TLC matches with each other and with the Dudleyz, and the men are sometimes put into ladder matches for singles titles (Edge vs Cena, Undertaker and Hardy vs Undertaker) because of the known draw of seeing one of the four in this form of match.

So unimportant was the outcome of the match that both teams got standing ovations and the four men turned on Gangrel and became faces for a short time, until E&C went heel months later.

I will stop there, though I have plenty more. I'd love to see what matches other people think belong on this list - any match where the winner was totally unimportant.

 

[Dragonslayer]

For me personally, I will have to go with

The Rock vs Stone Cold Steve Austin, WM19

The whole buildup may have been that Rock had never beaten Austin at a Wrestlemania yet, so technically, the outcome was important... but once the two of them started dishing out each other's finishing moves time after time, both of them taking serious damage and STILL kicking out and what not - in the end, it really didn't matter that much who won. Sure, the match was used to give Rock yet another little boost, since SCSA was basically done after that match, and if anyone needed a rub out of this match, it would have been The Rock (though he didn't _really_ need it either), so the outcome was quite logical... but I guess due to the fact that the match was pretty intense, and both guys were on the edge of winning/losing multiple times, in the end that was what made the match great - and not who went out the winner or the loser afterwards.

I'm feeling that there a few matches somewhere in the back of my head that would fit into this category as well, but right now I can't recall any lol... But a nice topic anyways!

 

[Miko]

For me personally, I will have to go with

The Rock vs Stone Cold Steve Austin, WM19

The whole buildup may have been that Rock had never beaten Austin at a Wrestlemania yet, so technically, the outcome was important... but once the two of them started dishing out each other's finishing moves time after time, both of them taking serious damage and STILL kicking out and what not - in the end, it really didn't matter that much who won. Sure, the match was used to give Rock yet another little boost, since SCSA was basically done after that match, and if anyone needed a rub out of this match, it would have been The Rock (though he didn't _really_ need it either), so the outcome was quite logical... but I guess due to the fact that the match was pretty intense, and both guys were on the edge of winning/losing multiple times, in the end that was what made the match great - and not who went out the winner or the loser afterwards.

I'm feeling that there a few matches somewhere in the back of my head that would fit into this category as well, but right now I can't recall any lol... But a nice topic anyways!

I'll go with Rock vs Austin at WM 17 actually, the outcome just wasnt important. Its' remembered for the year long buildup, the theiving of the opponents finishing moves, the stare-down at the Rumble, the attempts at teaming up beforehand, Austin's desperation when he realized it would take more than he could give to put The Rock down and Vince McMahons intereference. So yeah the outcome really didnt matter.

People would say that it's hardly a classic technical bout but if I wanted technical I'd watch the olympics.

An obvious one I'll go for is Bret vs Austin at Wrestlemania, Bret won on paper only and everyone knew this. In a similar (albiet less spectacular) fashoin to the Hell in a Cell Austin showed he could take more than anyone expected choosing to pass out before quitting.

Bret won but Austin beneffited and when people talk about this match it's rarely the victor who gets the praise.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

An obvious one I'll go for is Bret vs Austin at Wrestlemania, Bret won on paper only and everyone knew this. In a similar (albiet less spectacular) fashoin to the Hell in a Cell Austin showed he could take more than anyone expected choosing to pass out before quitting.

Bret won but Austin beneffited and when people talk about this match it's rarely the victor who gets the praise.

I was ready for someone to bring this one up.

I respectfully disagree. I think this match's victor was VERY important. When you describe the outcome of this match, it is always "Austin lost, BUT..." Ok, but he didn't submit, yadda yadda. The fact that he lost that match, but on his own terms, I feel was extremely significant. As such, I wouldn't include the Bret / Austin WM13 match on this list.

 

[Slyfox696]

I was ready for someone to bring this one up.

I respectfully disagree. I think this match's victor was VERY important. When you describe the outcome of this match, it is always "Austin lost, BUT..." Ok, but he didn't submit, yadda yadda. The fact that he lost that match, but on his own terms, I feel was extremely significant. As such, I wouldn't include the Bret / Austin WM13 match on this list.

Except it's not the winner that we cared about, it was the loser. We remember Austin from that match much more than we remember Hart, who was the actual winner. And yet, when referring to that match, it's always Austin's "courage" in the match.

Thus, the winner DIDN'T matter. When you remember the loser more than you do the winner, then it's obvious what people took away from that match was not the outcome, but rather the story of the fight.

EDIT: Afterall, how is this match any different from your example of Undertaker vs. Mankind in the Cell?

 

[Miko]

I was ready for someone to bring this one up.

I respectfully disagree. I think this match's victor was VERY important. When you describe the outcome of this match, it is always "Austin lost, BUT..." Ok, but he didn't submit, yadda yadda. The fact that he lost that match, but on his own terms, I feel was extremely significant. As such, I wouldn't include the Bret / Austin WM13 match on this list.

Actually. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . your right.

Austin losing in the way he did meant more than I gave it credit for, I got thinking about who won and completely forgot about the significance of the loss that took Austin to the next level and turned him face and Bret heel.

So yes I suppose the outcome did matter, just in a way that was different from the norm.

 

[Gelgarin]

More or less every pay off match over the past twenty years.
I'd be considerably more hard pressed to compose a list of matches were the person who won actually 'did' matter.

I've said a few times now that, more often than not, the question of who wins the match is only relevant for three seconds. After that both guys generally move off in different directions and the program is forgotten about.

Professional wrestling is an ever turning machine dedicated to churning out as much television as possible, and in an environment were everybody fights everybody else on such a regular basis, the result becomes immaterial in comparison to the match its self.

In fairness, it should be mentioned that there are some occasions where a result 'does' matter, although this usually has more to do with the direction of the product than the match its self. Obviously if a title changes hands it marks a change in the structure of the show. Similarly, if an undercard guy is given a clean win over an established main eventer, it signals a change it the stature of that talent.

In your typical match up though, it honestly couldn't matter less who gets the pin-fall. If you can even remember who triumphed in matches like like JBL/Jericho or BigShow/Khali then you have a better memory than me.

Lets take the HBK/Y2J feud as another example. Jericho got the better end of the victories over those memorable six months... but did it actually matter? Would the feud have received a worse reception if HBK had triumphed in the ladder match? No. Would either mans stature within the company have dramatically changed if the wins and losses had been distributed differently? No. Did the final result of the feud matter in the slightest? No.

Unless the result of the match is going to change the product in general, then who wins and who looses simply doesn't matter.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Valid point, Sly. All I am saying is that the outcome of the match did mean an awful lot, not because Austin lost, but because of the way in which he lost. It was still the outcome of the match that got people talking. I suppose your comparison to the Foley / Taker match is a fair one, but the Taker / Foley match is MAINLY remembered for the two spots from which Mick Foley got up - the throw off the cell and the thros through the cell. The moment we remember from the Hart / Austin match was the sharpshooter that led to the finish.

But I take your point at face value.

The major theme here is the absence of a championship. I am struggling to find a title match in which the outcome did not matter, and I am coming up empty. I wanted to say the Orton / Foley hardcore match for the Intercontinental Title, but Orton's win in that match signified his arrival as an upper-echelon guy who could take punishment with the best of them.

 

[NbR1Ch]

For some reason I really want to say The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan at WM18. I mean it was hyped up as Icon vs. Icon but when you watched the match it was basically the same result as Hart vs. Austin at WM13.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

For some reason I really want to say The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan at WM18. I mean it was hyped up as Icon vs. Icon but when you watched the match it was basically the same result as Hart vs. Austin at WM13.

I absolutely agree. This is one of the matches I was going to put on my list as well.

The fans told the wrestlers VERY early on that they didn't care who won, they were just in awe of these two charismatic cultural icons standing face to face in the ring, two eras respresented, on the biggest stage in sports entertainment. Half the time I don't even remember who won the damn match, but I remember the stare down and both men slowly turning their heads to see a crowd in awe of them, when they were clearly in awe of the crowd.

 

[jmt225]

How about Bret Hart vs. the British Bulldog from Summerslam 1992? That match immediately comes to mind when discussing this topic because it came straight from Bret's mouth on his DVD that even though he "lost" the match, he was the real winner. His performance in that match was the beginning of his era; it didn’t matter if he won or lost it.

That match and his match against Austin are why I consider Bret Hart to be the greatest in-ring worker in the history of the business. When it came to working in the ring, he knew how to put ANYONE over under any circumstance. He made EVERYONE look like gold when they were in the ring with him, while also still keeping his credibility intact. I remember he had a fantastic match with the 123 Kid and Kid never looked more impressive, not even in his debut match against Razor. Bret Hart was able to pull that shit off against anyone who ever stepped in the ring with him, which is why he owns this category. He could lose CLEAN, and still be the winner in the fans eyes. Who else can say that? You can say Foley, but look at what Foley had to do to pull it off. You can say Hogan, but how many times did Hogan actually do that? Twice, tops. Bret Hart did it nearly everytime he stepped in the ring.

 

[dc1]

1st im goin to add shawn micheals vs shelton benjamin, in one of the best raw matches ever, the only bad thing is after this wwe chose to do very little with shelton, they just stuck him in a ridiculous plot with his 'mother',

2nd Undertaker vs Jeff Hardy in a ladder match, shame jeff couldn't stay focused and motivated as this really made him a singles star, and since his return i would add his losing efforts vs triple h to the list.

3rd also the lesser known austin v hart match from survivors series 96, this really confirmed austin could go with the best, and austin never took his eyes off bret as he left the ring.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

How about Bret Hart vs. the British Bulldog from Summerslam 1992? That match immediately comes to mind when discussing this topic because it came straight from Bret's mouth on his DVD that even though he "lost" the match, he was the real winner. His performance in that match was the beginning of his era; it didn’t matter if he won or lost it.

I say absolutely "no." The entire allure and storyline of that match was The Bulldog's pursuit of his first major singles title, and the shot to win it in front of his country people. There WAS something on the line aside from just pride and family relations - that belt meant an awful lot in 1992, and when the Bulldog reversed that sunset flip for the three-count, the crowd went WILD because of the win and the title. Had Bret won that match, I promise you, we would not look back on that match with the reverence we do now. That may be one of the 5 greatest title changes of all time.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'd go with the TLC match at Wrestlemania 17. This was probably the best match that the Hardyz, Dudleys, and E and C were involved it. At this point in the WWE tag teams were still playing a very important role and we got to see future main eventers in Edge, Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, and Christian put on one of the most exciting matches ever. The tag titles were changing hands on such a frequent basis during this time period that the winners of the match really didn't matter. It was all about putting on an entertaining match with some of the future stars of the wrestling business.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

What about HBK vs. Razor WM10? Yes I know it was for the IC belt and at that time the belt did mean something so you could say since it was for a belt it meant something but in reality this match isnt known for that, its known for being the first ladder(televised) match in WWE and two guys putting on a helluva show. Alot of people probably dont even remember that Razor won because all you hear about was how great of a performance Michaels put on. In fact despite him losing, this match really launched him to Main event status. By the same time the following year he was headlining Wrestlemania.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

No Way Out: Three Stages of Hell: Steve Austin v. Triple H.​

Often times some will actually believe Steve Austin won the match, mainly because they couldn't remember overall. While others will remember Triple H. actually won, yet the overall winner was never seemingly big enough to be important, so much as this being the ending of their feud.. only to set-up their alliance a mere month later.

I think this is a perfect example of what Irish is asking, as it was the feud as a whole that made any match they had perfect, regardless of the victor.

WrestleMania X-7: W.W.F. Championship: Steve Austin v. The Rock:​

This is another set-up in the long line of "matches were so great, we've forgotten the victor". While I doubt anyone forgot who won, the fact remains both were incredible Superstars that either could've easily won the match.

The build-up to this match was intense, and the chemistry both men carried, through the lead-up, as well as within the match, was absolutely off the charts. I'd definately say that regardless of who won, this match was good enough that noone cared for as great of a match as they put on.

WrestleMania X-7: Triple H. v. The Undertaker​

Now before I get blasted due to it involving a WrestleMania match, tied in with it being with the Undertaker. This was actually before they began announcing his undefeated streak. This match was before the Undertaker's legacy solely surrounded his Mania matches.

So, with that being said.. if you didn't know the Undertaker was undefeated, and rewatching the build-up, not to mention this amazing match-up.. would you care who won? I bet more people were wanting and believing Triple H. would've won, and almost did win. This is one of Taker's more talked about Mania matches as well.. so clearly, dispite his undefeated streak, it must show a little credit to Triple H. and their storyline going into it.

 

[Blade]

This suggestion will probably be shot the hell down, but how about Angle vs Benoit from the 2003 Rumble?

The match completely captivated the audience like no match had done in a while, and showed that Chris Benoit was more than ready for the main event.
After the match was all said and done, Benoit got a standing ovation from the crowd, and you could tell by watching his face that he really felt loved by the fans. That was a really great ending to a really great match.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Terry Funk vs. Sabu
Born to be Wired
Not much to say about this match. Both men put their body's on the line and Sabu showed how dedicated to finishing that match he was, when he tapped up his bicep. Funk was damn brave to go through that match at his age, I mean who here would ever do that at 57?

 

[NbR1Ch]

I don't really think that any example from ECW (the REAL ECW) would really apply to this. I mean, the way I see it, every match in ECW was like that. Thats what made ECW so special is the fact that the fans were the most ruthless and had the highest expectations for the wrestlers of any fans ever. Every match in ECW that was heavily applauded wasnt necessarily for the wrestlers as characters, it was out of respect for them going out there every night and putting their bodies on the line to make sure that the fans went home with their money's worth and most importantly the memories.

PS - not being judgemental of you......strictly my opinion....

 

[Tastycles]

In the first post you mentioned the first tag team ladder match, but I think any of those gimmick matches between the Dudleys/Hardys and E&C are worthy of mention. The Hardy's lost the ladder match for the titles, and the Dudleys lost the first tables match ar Royal Rumble 2000. Seriously, the outcome of these matches is just a footnote compared to the match themselves.

Here's another though:


Razor Ramon v Shawn Michaels (ladder match) - Wrestlemania X

Razor won this match, but it was Michaels who will be remembered for it. This is the match that cast him into the limelight once and for all, even though he lost the match. The iconic image of this match is Michaels jumping off the ladder onto Razor, in a similar way to Mankind being thrown off the cell is to that match.

 

[Legendary_Undertaker]

IMO there are a few matches that I've seen in wrestling in which the winner didn't matter to much to me

Undertaker/Mankind HITC: This match was AWSOME, Brutal the EXACT thing that the AE personified. The match had fans glued to their T.V's and IMO it didn't matter which one of these Legends won they still put on a great show

Owen/Bret Hart: Bert was already established as a great overall wrestler, Owen was just his "high-Flyer" little brother. These two put on a clinic of what good wrestling is suppose to look like and although I was happy to see Owen go over Bret the match winner was irrelivant after you look back on match itself and see a very vivid display of techinal wrestling

Bret Hart/Sting: WCW's last match!! and wow what a way to go out! I didn't think they built this match up enough after all it was a dream match that put two legends with the same finisher against each other I turned from raw that night and I remember being awe sturck and just how passionate these two were in the ring the winner didn't matter because the match did nothing for eaither of their careers

Booker T/Chris Beniot: I kknow i'm goingg to get alot of heat from this one but i have to put it out there. This was one of the best series matches Ive ever witnessed. I was at nitro arounfd the second or third time they went one on one and their match was just flawless. I have to say i didn't think Booker could hang with beniot but boy waas I wrong. These matchers were great and eventhough i don't know who came out on top in the end I have to say it simpily didn't matter.

Chris Beniot/Kurt Angle: This was a match between the to best mat wrestlers in wrestling history. and for once the WWF didn't screw things up! enough said my reasons for this match making my list are exactly the same as our reason for watching wrestling. Pure Entertainment.

 

[Original Sin]

Bret Hart/Sting: WCW's last match!! and wow what a way to go out! I didn't think they built this match up enough after all it was a dream match that put two legends with the same finisher against each other I turned from raw that night and I remember being awe sturck and just how passionate these two were in the ring the winner didn't matter because the match did nothing for eaither of their careers

WCW's last match was Sting vs Ric Flair. If that's what your talking about, Flair does the Figure Four, Sting does the Scorpion Death Lock, not really the same.

But,

Sting vs Flair on the last Nitro is my first pick for this thread. Sting won, the match wasn't their greatest, but so much emotion was there. They kept breaking character and smiling at each other and hugging and shaking hands. It brought a tear to my eye.

 

[MisterRob]

Except it's not the winner that we cared about, it was the loser. We remember Austin from that match much more than we remember Hart, who was the actual winner. And yet, when referring to that match, it's always Austin's "courage" in the match.

Thus, the winner DIDN'T matter. When you remember the loser more than you do the winner, then it's obvious what people took away from that match was not the outcome, but rather the story of the fight.

EDIT: Afterall, how is this match any different from your example of Undertaker vs. Mankind in the Cell?

How does this make any sense? I think you need to go back and re-watch the match and pay very close attention to the story within it. How anyone can put this on the list of "winner didn't matter" just baffles me, because the details of the story told, and the choice of the winner and how it played out is everything to this match. The reason its such a great match, holds such a permanent place in history, and was so effective is because Austin DIDN'T win. Its because Austin wouldn't give up and wouldn't quite, yet he techically lost but did it his way by showing his heart and determination. If Austin had come back, stunned Hart, and won the match it would have had no meaning at all. Hart losing would've meant nothing but Austin losing meant EVERYTHING, because of the way he lost. The heel turn at the end would've lost its meaning too, because what made it so effective and gave so much to Austin's face turn, is because Bret WON the match and still attacked him afterwards when Austin couldn't defend himself. It was the act of attacking Austin after he'd lost that cemented the double turn. So to say the winner of the match didn't matter makes no sense because it meant everything to the story of the match.


I also think the winner of the Hell in a Cell match between Undertaker vs. Mankind was also important. Mankind took a hell of a beating and somehow survived, somehow kept coming back, and if he had come back and WON then it would've done nothing to make Undertaker. It would've benefitted Mankind and Mankind only. But with Undertaker winning it still made Mankind, because he took such a beating and kept coming, and it showed his courage and fortitude.. while still putting Undertaker over. Otherwise it would've downplayed Undertaker, because Mankind would've taken everything Undertaker could throw at him and still overcome, making Undertaker look weaker.

 

[shafe_41]

I'm sure this has already been said, but the only match that comes to mind for me personally is Kurt Angle vs. HBK at WM21. That match was what Wrestlemania is all about. I would go into details about it, but I would never stop typing. Everybody that has seen this match knows that not enough can be said about this absolutely f'n over the top epic. No straight up wrestling match has ever grabbed my attention like this one has and I doubt any ever will. No gimmicks, no ladders, no weapons... just a classic amazing superior match that defines what every wrestling match should be.

These two are obviously future hall-of-famers even if Kurt and Vince broke off on bad terms and had the crowd split and their legacies were already solidified. Who was the winner of this match??? IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO THE WINNER WAS!!!

 

[pyrusane]

Razor Ramon v Shawn Michaels (ladder match) - Wrestlemania X

Razor won this match, but it was Michaels who will be remembered for it. This is the match that cast him into the limelight once and for all, even though he lost the match. The iconic image of this match is Michaels jumping off the ladder onto Razor, in a similar way to Mankind being thrown off the cell is to that match.

To expand on this match...the match had an incredible build-up, with Shawn returning from a suspension and claiming to be the "real" IC champion, the two belts, the fact that this was going to be the first televised ladder match in WWF history. This match started off as being all about who was going to win the title(s). How is the match remembered now? Ric Flair said it best when he said that Razor Ramon was in the ring while Shawn Michaels wrestled a ladder. And yet Razor won the match, and the IC title.

Another match that hasn't been mentioned yet is the HBK/John Cena match from Raw a couple years ago that went for..I believe it was 43 minutes? Prior to this match, I didn't believe that Cena was capable of sustaining a match for that long and keeping it interesting, regardless of the fact that he was in the ring with the incomparable HBK. And lets not forget that this was not originally intended to last anywhere near that long. People tend to forget that that particular RAW was supposed to have a double main event, with Randy Orton taking on...I think it was Triple H he was scheduled to face. Orton got sent home on Saturday after trashing his hotel, so these two only had two days to prepare for a match that lasted almost an hour. And I honestly don't remember who won it, I just remember being tremendously impressed with the match.

One final entry, although in a slightly different vein...I remember a match from WM20 that was so hyped, so monumental, and in the end so craptastic that no one really cares who won it. Of course, I refer to Goldberg/Lesnar...