ECW San Antonio, Round 3, Match 1: #2 Shawn Michaels vs. 18. Jushin Liger

[Shocky]

The following match takes place in the ECW Region, under Extreme Rules, from San Antonio, TX.

#2. "The Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels

vs.

#18. Jushin Thunder Liger

​

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Man alive. Liger went over Batista in a rout, but HBK is in another hemisphere compared to Big Dave. Liger and HBK are approx. the same size with HBK having a slight height advantage over Liger. They're both lightning quick, both great executors of their respective signature moves, but one thing that many may not think of because it's so trivial.

Liger has a HUGE mask. If HBK hits Sweet Chin Music in the wrong place, it could merely daze Liger momentarily, certainly less than three seconds, and if that's the case, HBK could get outsmarted and walk into a Liger Bomb on his bad back, which could incapacitate the Showstopper for a pin.

This is in San Antonio and this is HBK country, but Liger's notorious for going into someone's backyard and beating them. Ask Rey Mysterio, Psicosis, and others in Mexico, and ask Brian Pillman in the US.

My vote will go to Liger, but it won't matter. Shawn will get the votes.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

While I"m quite happy Liger went over Batista, his road comes to an end here. It'd be an incredible match, no question. I'd pay good money to see this, a shitload of it actually but I give it to Michaels all the way.

While Liger is well known to beat guys in their own backyard and with all due respect to Mysterio, Psicocis and Brian Pillman, Michaels towers head, shoulders, arms and waist above them. If Michaels can take the Tombstone and kick out, I don't think the Liger Bomb is going to make much of a difference. Maybe if he takes 4 or 5, but I doubt that's likely to happen. The beauty with SCM is that Michaels can hit it at the drop of a hat: Does a kip up as Liger is coming for him and SNAP, there it is. Michaels floats over Liger's back as he tries a suplex and SNAP, there it is again and so on and so forth. The fact that this is Extreme Rules means each will pull out all the stops. I have tremendous pity for the camera man Michaels pulls in front of him whenever Liger tries one of those spectacular dives of his. HBK will be exahausted, he'll be bloody and barely able to move, but he will win this one.

 

[Tastycles]

I think Liger will win, and should win, but there are people who can make better arguments as to why Liger wins than I can. It basically boils down to the fact that Liger has him at least matched attribute for attribute in everything, and he is certainly better strengthwise. Alors, I have to think that Liger will be able to beat him with a Ligerbomb.

However, I do have a few points to make. Firstly, the ECW environment tends to work against Shawn. He has won gimmick matches, yes, but he's lost a hell of a lot more. Last year at One Night Stand Batista beat the piss out of him in a stretcher match. He beat HHH in a steet fight, but he also lost in one as part of the three stages of hell match. Michaels has good gimmick matches, but he pretty much loses most of them.

So the way I see it, Liger is just as fast as Michaels, is stronger and is more capable of adapting to the match than Michaels and the match is in an environment that doesn't suit Michaels, so for me, that means a victory for Liger here.

 

[2012isbs]

I give to Liger I've seen some of his WCW matches and they were awesome. HBK will put up a great fight but I think Liger will win it just because he's better he's a legend in Japan and in the States I'm entirely sure Shawn is though. One could say Liger is similair to Rey in Kayfabe terms in America here's a link to a match he had agoinst rey and lost http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4DMUS_enUS302US302&um=1&q=Jushin%20Thunder%20Liger%20vs.%20Chris%20Benoit&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iv#q=Rey+Mysterio+vs.+Shawn+Michaels&hl=en&emb=0 Too bad no matter who wins this they'll lose to Brock Lesnar. Too bad as well when he fights Raven and loses.

 

[LigerBomb]

Jushin "Thunder" Liger goes over HBK. Period.

For those not in the know, here is a bit of info on Liger's humble beginnings:

Keiichi Yamada was a stand out amateur wrestler throughout his youth. Upon making the switch to Pro Wrestling Yamada began his education in the Lucha Libre traditions of Mexico where the foundation of his high flying prowess would take root. He would then return to his home land of Japan and begin training at the acclaimed New Japan Pro Wrestling (NJPW) dojo where he learned the customary so called "Strong Style" of Puroresu. This form of wrestling being based on a hybrid of legitimate martial arts and hook/shoot wrestling emphasizes strikes and grapples executed with a high degree of force and solid mat based wrestling technique. At the same time Yamada also wanted to incorporate other unique martial art disciplines into his style so he began training at various dojos all across Japan.

Because of his smaller stature compared to other members of his class, he was advised by NJPW veterans to become as strong and powerful as possible. Taking this advice to heart Liger would ultimately grow to become one of the only Jr. Heavyweights capable of effortlessly throwing men who were more than twice his size around the ring.

Upon completion of his NJPW training he was sent to the UK to further his knowledge. There he would learn techniques unique to the European style of Pro Wrestling. After returning to Japan he would create the Shooting Star Press, after reading the manga Fist of the North Star. His education in all things Pro Wrestling would culminate in his trip to Calgary, Alberta, Canada were he would study at the legendary Hart Family Dungeon, even working with Stu Hart himself.

After the great success NJPW had achieved with the Tiger Mask character -a wrestling gimmick based on an immensely popular anime of the same name- they decided to create a new wrestler in the image of the country's newest anime sensation; Jushin Liger. NJPW took notice of Yamada's abilities and dedication to learning his craft and hand picked him to be the bearer of the Jushin Liger gimmick.

Hopefully, the above gave you some background on a somewhat nebulous character to many wrestling fans here in the West. If asked, I'd be more than happy to outline more things you ought to know about a true living legend in the sport... and why he would/should beat Shawn Michaels.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I'm a fan of Liger's as well, but I've seen no shred of evidence that proves he'd go over Michaels in an Extreme Rules match. Pointing out the whole "Liger's a god in Japan" argument isn't gonna do it for me in this because it's the same argument that's been used for every Japanese wrestler in this tournament.

I question as to whether Liger's strength is greater than Shawn's, though I don't think that's much of an advantage if he is since HBK has faced and beaten MUCH stronger than Liger, since Liger is a cruiserweight. All of Liger's biggest accomplishments have been as a cruiserweight. If Brian Pillman could beat Liger, which he did for the WCW Light Heavyweight Championship during SuperBrawl II back in 1992, then Michaels could as well.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Because I can't put up with the bullshit in this thread anymore...Liger is good. But he's not good enough to defeat Shawn Michaels. Shawn has proven time and time again he is one of the best, with his matches, with his title reigns etc. Is Liger one of the best? Do you really think he's better than Shawn?

This is in San Antonio and this is HBK country, but Liger's notorious for going into someone's backyard and beating them. Ask Rey Mysterio, Psicosis, and others in Mexico, and ask Brian Pillman in the US.

And are you trying to compare any of them to Shawn Michaels? It's completely different.

So the way I see it, Liger is just as fast as Michaels, is stronger and is more capable of adapting to the match

Other than this, you made a good post on the subject, with the most convincing arguments I've seen. But saying Liger could adapt to a match better than Shawn is untrue in my opinion - he's made a name out of himself for doing it; winning the first Hell in a Cell, and the first Elimination chamber; taking part in many new concepts. I think Shawn definately has the upper hand there.

I don't think Liger is stronger either.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

And are you trying to compare any of them to Shawn Michaels? It's completely different?

Well, at their peek, they were on the same level of speed and quickness. As far as overall talent and showmanship, HBK in his prime is better than them in their prime. The point I'm trying to make is that Liger can adapt to being in a hostile environment...which is what San Antonio would be when he fought HBK. Anything can happen. Have you watched any matches with Liger?

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I'm not totally sure who I will vote for at the present, but this is a matchup that intrigues me for sure. Liger is well renowned as one of the greatest workers ever, and many regard Shawn as being THE greatest worker ever. Is that because Shawn has the US bias? I will be studying up to give this vote its due.

Becca why is it completely different?

 

[HBK-aholic]

Well, at their peek, they were on the same level of speed and quickness. As far as overall talent and showmanship, HBK in his prime is better than them in their prime. The point I'm trying to make is that Liger can adapt to being in a hostile environment...which is what San Antonio would be when he fought HBK. Anything can happen. Have you watched any matches with Liger?

Quite a few, as I said, I think he's good, just not good enough to defeat Shawn. I see the point you're trying to make, but I believe that Shawn is better than the others you mentioned (as you do), therefore it'd be a lot harder for him to beat Shawn. Now, I'm not one that thinks location is a huge deal, so I haven't made much out of this being San Antonio - I think if the wrestler is good enough they can beat anyone anywhere. But I don't think Liger is the guy to take arguably the best all-round wrestler ever out of this compeition.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I'm not totally sure who I will vote for at the present, but this is a matchup that intrigues me for sure. Liger is well renowned as one of the greatest workers ever, and many regard Shawn as being THE greatest worker ever. Is that because Shawn has the US bias? I will be studying up to give this vote its due.

*Hands you a Vote Shawn badge*. To be honest, I don't think he has the 'US bias'. Actually, in this tournament I think I've seen more bias for wrestlers from Mexico/Japan, a few people who are voting solely because they think it makes them look more knowledgeable.

Becca why is it completely different?

Well, it'd be like me saying Shawn has defeated Shelton Benjamin, therefore he can defeat Liger. It's completely different because Liger wrestles a different style and is more talented. Just as Shawn wrestlers a different style and is more talented than those that were pointed out.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

The point made was that Liger has defeated high profile Mexican wrestlers in Mexico (and well...Pillman in the US)...so Shawn's "hometown advantage" should not mean as much. I can buy into that. I'm not totally sure what Shawn's record is when fighting in San Antonio...or even Texas for that matter...but I do know that Shawn...who is "Mr. Wrestlemania" lost in his signature event in his home state to the Undertaker in early April. Thus, I think the "hometown" advantage is less of a factor here.

 

[savagelegacy]

I believe that HBK would win this match, simply because HBK always wins and if he loses it is usually to put over someone - I doubt he would put over Liger.

HBK for the Win. Don't ban me for spamming - I am simply voting for HBK.

 

[HBK-aholic]

The point made was that Liger has defeated high profile Mexican wrestlers in Mexico (and well...Pillman in the US)...so Shawn's "hometown advantage" should not mean as much. I can buy into that.

Hometown advantage just shouldn't mean much in general, as I stated earlier. But what I mean is that using them specifically is different as none of them are in his league. It's not useless information as such, but should be looked at in context.

I'm not totally sure what Shawn's record is when fighting in San Antonio...or even Texas for that matter...but I do know that Shawn...who is "Mr. Wrestlemania" lost in his signature event in his home state to the Undertaker in early April. Thus, I think the "hometown" advantage is less of a factor here.

I don't think being in Texas has changed Shawn's overall win/loss record at all. I'd have to work out the figures for it, which I'll do later on, but from memory, I know that he has suffered loss in Texas, most recently the one you mentioned at Wrestlemania.

I believe that HBK would win this match, simply because HBK always wins and if he loses it is usually to put over someone - I doubt he would put over Liger.

HBK for the Win. Don't ban me for spamming - I am simply voting for HBK.

It's not spamming, 'tis a good post with your reason. You get rep for voting HBK, though .

 

[LigerBomb]

I'm not totally sure who I will vote for at the present, but this is a matchup that intrigues me for sure. Liger is well renowned as one of the greatest workers ever, and many regard Shawn as being THE greatest worker ever. Is that because Shawn has the US bias? I will be studying up to give this vote its due.

Becca why is it completely different?

Actually I would submit that it is because WWE likes to employ a somewhat revisionist history to the sport of Pro Wrestling in America and tries it's best to barely acknowlege the histories and stars of the sports' foreign promotions. Also the "many" you mention in regards soley to other workers, are mostly WWE employees and better yet close personal friends of Shawn. No disrespect to Mr. Michaels but while the arguement could be made that he is one of the better men in/from the States, I don't believe he would be seen as the best in the world. Matches that are regarded as remarkable and one of a kind -like Michaels V. 'Taker at WM25- are practically routine in Japan which has a much higher standard of consistant work rate/match quality.

On an unrelated note, I beileve the topic of Hometown advatage can be summed up thusly: While it's true the match takes place in Michaels' home state of Texas, more specifically it takes place in an ECW venue -and not WWE's version of ECW full of WWE marks- where fans are probably more knowledgeble in regards to foreign talent, routinley hate the big 2 along with their respective talent, and would love nothing more than to see their "hometown hero" get taken down a peg or two by the foreign wrestling legend.

 

[Tastycles]

Becca's fighting on lots of fronts here, so I am only going to respond to the point about adaptation. Everything else is for everyone else to decide.

Michaels won the first hell in a cell match, this is true. However, he took a fucking royal beating and only came out victorious because Kane showed up. As far as I'm aware Liger doesn't have any brothers who have come back from the dead to destroy him, so I think he'll be ok in that respect.

And I will concede that he did win the first elimination chamber, but the guys in there had been beating the shit out of each other for 20 minutes before he made his entrance.

Then we look at the other first matches he's had...

He lost his first ladder match, whether you count that as being against Bret Hart at a house show or against Razor Ramon. He also lost his first stretcher match, in the aforementioned Batista match and his first ever three stages of hell match. I would therefore argue that in reality he isn't very adaptive to his surroundings.

Meanwhile, when Liger was faced with Muta who used underhand tactics, he famously transformed into Kishin Liger who basically adapts into being Muta, or at least using his underhanded ways to beat him. Completely changing your gimmick during a match to ensure victory is completely as adaptive as you can get, so Liger is certainly more adaptable than Michaels, like I said.

 

[LigerBomb]

I question as to whether Liger's strength is greater than Shawn's, though I don't think that's much of an advantage if he is since HBK has faced and beaten MUCH stronger than Liger, since Liger is a cruiserweight. All of Liger's biggest accomplishments have been as a cruiserweight. If Brian Pillman could beat Liger, which he did for the WCW Light Heavyweight Championship during SuperBrawl II back in 1992, then Michaels could as well.

This seem to be a prime example of a basic Logic Fallacy:

1. Pillman>Liger
2. Michaels>Pillman
3. Therefore Michaels>Liger

It doesn't work. Not only for the obvious and well established reason that make it a logic fallacy, but because fallacy aside we are comparing a match in which Liger was basically booked to job to whoever WCW wanted him to -in this case WCW's own Brian Pillman- in order to make him look good, to an outcome in which neither man is a mainstay in the promotion this match takes place in.

Another fallacy happens when you mention Liger's strength in comparison to the strength of other men that Shawn has faced and subsequently beaten, and how if he does indeed posses greater strength it may be of little advantage. You only speak of the single positive attribute of strength while omitting the multiple negative attributes that actually lead to losses. By failing to mention the negative attributes these stronger men posses, -which are the true reasons for Michaels wins- in relation to Michaels victories, you are at best say strength doesn't matter, and at worst creating some paradoxical logic that states that men with strength greater than Michaels lose to him because of said greater strength:

1. HBK beats men stronger than him
2. Liger is stronger than HBK (a point you question...)
3. Therefore HBK beats Liger (but what if they were equal?)

The men that are stronger than Michaels (a positive) by and large are also slower, less skilled, prone to faster exhaustion, and are possibly less experience than Michaels too (multiple negatives). These men obviously didn't lose to Michaels because they are stronger, or because their greater strength didn't matter, but because they posses all the negatives mentioned above.

However none of those above negative attributes apply to Liger. So whether or not Shawn can beat men stronger than himself -or Liger for that matter- has no bearing on whether he can beat a man who doesn't suffer from their respective limitations and who may also be stronger. Having greater strength -which by the way I contend Liger possess in spades- than your opponent will always be a highly positive attribute, and will have at least some impact in this match.

 

[Ty Burna]

Oh how I would love to see this match, on one hand you have the Showstopper, and the other hand you have arguably one of the best Japan has to offer. Now at the moment I"m not 100% decided on who I will vote for, because Liger was a treat to watch back in WCW, and now with Youtube I've grown to enjoy his matches even more, but at the same time Michaels I hold in very high regard.

So I will break it down as much as I can. In their primes, I think they were comparable speed and agility wise, however they used them in different methods. Liger used his for quicker lucahdore moves and Michaels uses his for fast counter attacks. Strength wise is pretty much a wash as neither uses much of a power game, but I think I will have to give a very very slim advantage to Liger here based on some of his matches I've seen. Liger often used power moves to set up for his high flying moves, but because they weren't used to do damage primarily, I don't see it as a huge advantage. Meanwhile, Michaels has an advantage in the finisher department because Sweet Chin Music can come out of anywhere and finish a match. Liger has the Liger Bomb and Shooting Star Press which requires some set up in order to do. Technical prowess is very close as neither was known to take the match to the mat and use all sorts of submission maneuvers. Michaels has the crossface and Figure Four to use, Liger I haven't seen him use many submissions so Michaels gets the advantage there. Liger though, is a better striker I believe, he has the Rolling Koppou Kick (similar to a spinning heel kick), and the thrust palm strike that he uses. Michaels has the chops, but I don't think they compare to the kicks and strikes Luger uses. The hardcore environment I believe is where it makes it interesting, as Liger probably has more experience in said environment, but Michaels is very capable of adapting to any situation.

To sum it up, this is would be a very close highly entertaining match. I think I will wait to see other arguments before I vote.

 

[Loveless]

I'm a huge Michaels fan but even I'm tempted to vote Liger here, however in the end I think Shawn, realising he's met someone equal to him, cheats to win by grabbing the tights.

 

[LigerBomb]

Meanwhile, when Liger was faced with Muta who used underhand tactics, he famously transformed into Kishin Liger who basically adapts into being Muta, or at least using his underhanded ways to beat him. Completely changing your gimmick during a match to ensure victory is completely as adaptive as you can get, so Liger is certainly more adaptable than Michaels, like I said.

I've always looked upon the Kishin gimmick as the fourth stage of Liger's transformation. Jushin Liger->Fire Liger->Thunder Liger-> Kishin Liger. I don't count Black Liger as a full/distinct transformation but rather just an agressive heel change. Kishin I believe can mean "Roar" in Japanese hence Roaring Liger, or can be a combination of Ki -"energy/inner strength" and "Shin" -True, therefore, True Strength/Full Energy or how I think of it; Ultimate Liger. For anyone who watches Dragon Ball Z think of all the different levels of Super Sayen Goku SS1,SS2,SS3 etc. as a similar concept. Like wise ever play a video game where you beat the boss only to have him get back up only this time he is bigger, stronger, has more super moves, and 3 bars of health/energy compared to your single bar! Yea Kishin Liger is like that! Also I'd like to note that the last time he used the Kishin gimmick he was infact in a harcore match where he won by giving his oponent a devastating brainbuster onto a whole pile of folding chairs which I believe can be seen at 4:35 in this video:
[youtube]wqq2eWbN-vs[/youtube]

 

[klunderbunker]

Holy hellfire what a match. To me, this comes down to when do you consider HBK's prime to be. Shawn has had two distinct styles over his career: the one now which is a little bit of everything and the one where he got to the top which was high flying. If you're going based on high flying, Shawn is dead before he even gets in the ring. Under no circumstances can Shawn ever have a prayer against Liger in a contest based on high flying, and I'm not sure even the pre-injury Rey Mysterio could.

However, if you're going with the way Shawn wrestles today, he can beat Liger. Shawn wrestles a more ground based match with some high risk moves thrown in. If Shawn can keep Liger grounded and make this a mat based match, Shawn picks up the win. I think I have to go with Shawn though based on the speed of the superkick though. ALl of Liger's moves take time to set up. The SCM is instant and a knockout. I'll give this to Shawn in an absolute 5 star classic.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

This seem to be a prime example of a basic Logic Fallacy:

1. Pillman>Liger
2. Michaels>Pillman
3. Therefore Michaels>Liger

It doesn't work. Not only for the obvious and well established reason that make it a logic fallacy, but because fallacy aside we are comparing a match in which Liger was basically booked to job to whoever WCW wanted him to -in this case WCW's own Brian Pillman- in order to make him look good, to an outcome in which neither man is a mainstay in the promotion this match takes place in.

Another fallacy happens when you mention Liger's strength in comparison to the strength of other men that Shawn has faced and subsequently beaten, and how if he does indeed posses greater strength it may be of little advantage. You only speak of the single positive attribute of strength while omitting the multiple negative attributes that actually lead to losses. By failing to mention the negative attributes these stronger men posses, -which are the true reasons for Michaels wins- in relation to Michaels victories, you are at best say strength doesn't matter, and at worst creating some paradoxical logic that states that men with strength greater than Michaels lose to him because of said greater strength:

1. HBK beats men stronger than him
2. Liger is stronger than HBK (a point you question...)
3. Therefore HBK beats Liger (but what if they were equal?)

The men that are stronger than Michaels (a positive) by and large are also slower, less skilled, prone to faster exhaustion, and are possibly less experience than Michaels too (multiple negatives). These men obviously didn't lose to Michaels because they are stronger, or because their greater strength didn't matter, but because they posses all the negatives mentioned above.

However none of those above negative attributes apply to Liger. So whether or not Shawn can beat men stronger than himself -or Liger for that matter- has no bearing on whether he can beat a man who doesn't suffer from their respective limitations and who may also be stronger. Having greater strength -which by the way I contend Liger possess in spades- than your opponent will always be a highly positive attribute, and will have at least some impact in this match.

Blah blah blah. Look, this is all Kayfabe. This is a match that has never happened, never will happen, so we have to base our decisions on what we know about the participants involved. We can suppose all we like, which is all this is really. The fact that Liger lost to Brian Pillman when both were in their prime is a relevant factor for me. Now, and I don't think I'm wrong in this, Brian Pillman was nowhere near the league of HBK and the fact that he beat Liger suggests to me that it's VERY VERY VERY much a possibility of Michaels coming out of this with a win. Michaels is a wrestler that's been known for taking on wrestlers of all shapes, all sizes, all with different attributes to bring to the table and, one way or another, he holds victories over all of them. Liger is great, I'll never say otherwise, but ALL of his greatest matches and accomplishments in his career have been against cruiserweights. Shawn's all around performance against all these various names is another factor that's part of my choice. He's proven that he can take on any type of opponent successfully and, simply put, Liger hasn't.

As to the mention of strength, I wasn't the one that brought strength into the equation. This is a contest that wouldn't be decided by strength. Neither of these two are known for being physical powerhouses. My intention was to point out that a statement of Liger being stronger than Michaels is baseless. I used Michaels' matches and wins over much more powerful wrestlers as a means of showing that even if Liger does have an advantage in power, which is something that's highly debatable, I simply don't see how it'll play much of a role.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Blah blah blah. Look, this is all Kayfabe. This is a match that has never happened, never will happen, so we have to base our decisions on what we know about the participants involved. We can suppose all we like, which is all this is really. The fact that Liger lost to Brian Pillman when both were in their prime is a relevant factor for me. Now, and I don't think I'm wrong in this, Brian Pillman was nowhere near the league of HBK and the fact that he beat Liger suggests to me that it's VERY VERY VERY much a possibility of Michaels coming out of this with a win. Michaels is a wrestler that's been known for taking on wrestlers of all shapes, all sizes, all with different attributes to bring to the table and, one way or another, he holds victories over all of them. Liger is great, I'll never say otherwise, but ALL of his greatest matches and accomplishments in his career have been against cruiserweights. Shawn's all around performance against all these various names is another factor that's part of my choice. He's proven that he can take on any type of opponent successfully and, simply put, Liger hasn't.

As to the mention of strength, I wasn't the one that brought strength into the equation. This is a contest that wouldn't be decided by strength. Neither of these two are known for being physical powerhouses. My intention was to point out that a statement of Liger being stronger than Michaels is baseless. I used Michaels' matches and wins over much more powerful wrestlers as a means of showing that even if Liger does have an advantage in power, which is something that's highly debatable, I simply don't see how it'll play much of a role.

All right. So, essentially you're arguing that, because Liger lost to Pillman once (oh, also, you forgot to mention the fact that Pillman only beat Liger after Liger already beat him for the WCW Light Heavyweight Championship), he would lose to Shawn Michaels, because Michaels is better than Pillman? Damn, dude! LigerBomb really wasn't kidding when he said you used faulty logic! Your whole argument here relies on selection bias, which is a big no no.

I'll do you one better. Jushin Liger defeated Pegasus Kid (AKA Chris Benoit) in November 1990 to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship. In a triple threat match at WM XX, Chris Benoit defeated HHH and Shawn Michaels to win WWE's WHC. So, obviously then, Liger must beat Michaels, according to the logic you use, and which I just employed here. (Please don't this seriously, as this argument is only meant to be facetious. Hell, I'll even admit that it matches your logic in its shittiness).

Oh, and as far as Liger only beating cruiserweights and no heavyweights, that's the way they roll in Japan; they like to keep it realistic. There has really only been one junior heavyweight who has been able to transition into a credible heavyweight (read: win either the IWGP Heavyweight Championship or the Triple Crown Championship), and that was Tatsumi Fujinami. Admittedly, Liger tried to be a heavyweight, but his frame couldn't properly hold the extra weight. So, he went back to the NJPW junior heavyweight division that he had pretty much decimated all throughout the 90s.

We talk about how Shawn Michaels has beaten so many big men in WWE, and thus how he could easily handle Liger. But, I think that's being a little bit ethnocentric. If Shawn Michaels were to wrestle in Japan, he would definitely not be cut out for the heavyweight division there, and thus he would be nothing but a formidable challenger to the likes of Liger, The Great Sasuke, and Tiger Mask (that is to say, he would probably win a few matches, and maybe even win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight belt a couple of times, but he would only lose it back to the likes of the aforementioned wrestlers).

Fortunately, this match takes place in Bizarro World, AKA ECW, where anything and everything goes. And, in this environment, I say Liger ties Michaels in stamina and beats him in speed and strength, thus ultimately winning him the match after an excellent effort by Michaels.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

All right. So, essentially you're arguing that, because Liger lost to Pillman once (oh, also, you forgot to mention the fact that Pillman only beat Liger after Liger already beat him for the WCW Light Heavyweight Championship), he would lose to Shawn Michaels, because Michaels is better than Pillman? Damn, dude! LigerBomb really wasn't kidding when he said you used faulty logic! Your whole argument here relies on selection bias, which is a big no no.

I'll do you one better. Jushin Liger defeated Pegasus Kid (AKA Chris Benoit) in November 1990 to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship. In a triple threat match at WM XX, Chris Benoit defeated HHH and Shawn Michaels to win WWE's WHC. So, obviously then, Liger must beat Michaels, according to the logic you use, and which I just employed here. (Please don't this seriously, as this argument is only meant to be facetious. Hell, I'll even admit that it matches your logic in its shittiness).

Oh, and as far as Liger only beating cruiserweights and no heavyweights, that's the way they roll in Japan; they like to keep it realistic. There has really only been one junior heavyweight who has been able to transition into a credible heavyweight (read: win either the IWGP Heavyweight Championship or the Triple Crown Championship), and that was Tatsumi Fujinami. Admittedly, Liger tried to be a heavyweight, but his frame couldn't properly hold the extra weight. So, he went back to the NJPW junior heavyweight division that he had pretty much decimated all throughout the 90s.

We talk about how Shawn Michaels has beaten so many big men in WWE, and thus how he could easily handle Liger. But, I think that's being a little bit ethnocentric. If Shawn Michaels were to wrestle in Japan, he would definitely not be cut out for the heavyweight division there, and thus he would be nothing but a formidable challenger to the likes of Liger, The Great Sasuke, and Tiger Mask (that is to say, he would probably win a few matches, and maybe even win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight belt a couple of times, but he would only lose it back to the likes of the aforementioned wrestlers).

Fortunately, this match takes place in Bizarro World, AKA ECW, where anything and everything goes. And, in this environment, I say Liger ties Michaels in stamina and beats him in speed and strength, thus ultimately winning him the match after an excellent effort by Michaels.

As I said to LigerBomb, blah blah blah. My decision to pick Michaels over Liger has nothing to do with bias, I just don't automatically bow down to the Japanese wrestling gods like a lot of others do. If someone can convince me with some shred of evidence, any at all, other than harping on what a legend Liger is in Japan, then let's hear it. I've heard the baseless assumptions that Michaels isn't suited for a hardcore environment and that some of his well known gimmick matches don't count. So the guy hasn't participated in dozens of deathmatches, neither had most of ECW's alumni but, for Michaels, it must automatically mean he couldnt' handle it. Now here comes the equally baseless comment regarding Michaels not being cut out for being a heavyweight in Japanese wrestling promotions if he'd ever gone there. Why is that exactly? Antonio Inoki wasn't much larger than Michaels, Rikidozan was several inches shorter and generally weighed around the 240 pound range. But wait, aren't these two of the participants in this tournament that have been heralded as gods?

As to trying to shirk the fact that Liger also beat Pillman, read an earlier post I made in regards to Liger taking the likes of Mysterio, Psicosis and Pillman in their own back yards. Since someone else had already mentioned the fact that he beat Pillman, I thought it necessary to bring up the fact that he lost to Pillman as well. Let's not bring bias into this equation because it has nothing to do with it. I could say the same thing over the fact that Pillman's victory over Liger's wasn't brought up, but I'm not going to dwell on it because it does nothing to disuade my point.

I didn't just make a comment about Michaels taking on big men, I made a comment about him taking on wrestlers of all shapes and all sizes and his success rate. The fact that Liger couldn't cut it as a heavyweight, regardless of whatever circumstances or excuses are thrown about, is also relevant to me. Liger is a fantastic cruiserweight, probably the best in the history of the entire worldwide cruiserweight division. But, the fact that he has almost exclusively been a cruiserweight for his entire career puts into question his capability as an overall performer.

Now, all that being said and as I said earlier, a lot of what we're going by is assumption based on what we know about these participants. I know that Liger is basically lord and master of the Japanese cruiserweights, but his performance against any other type of wrestler has to be legitimately questioned. Doesn't automatically mean he couldn't do well, it just means more assumptions have to be made. As for Shawn Michaels, we know that he's taken on opponents of all shapes, sizes, techniques, or lack of techniques and has performed very well against all of them. Based on that, and once again I'm just going by assumptions based on what I know about these two, I have to think that Michaels is the better all around performer. He's been in different situations, he's had to adapt to different types of wrestlers and styles and Liger hasn't.