ECW Denver, Round 3, Match 1: #4 Big Van Vader vs. #13 Lex Luger

[Shocky]

The following match takes place in the ECW Region, under Extreme Rules, from Denver, Co.

#4. Big Van Vader

vs.

#13. "The Total Package" Lex Luger

 

[klunderbunker]

Lex Luger is in the running with Eddie Guerrero for most overrated wrestler of all time. The man has a bloated resume that involved him doing next to nothing of note. Remember to take note that Vader's manager, Harley Race, managed Luger before managing Vader. Race knows Luger's every move and anything that Luger had in store for Vader, the Mastadon will be well schooled on. Luger has the bionic forearm, but that's not going to help him when Vader is crushing his skull with punch after punch. Vader is going to send Luger packing after a brief comeback from Luger, and then the Vader Bomb from hell for a relatively easy win.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

While I agree that EG is somewhat overrated, Luger is in a category all on his own. For me, Luger ranks right up there with the Ultimate Warrior as for being possibly the most overrated big name wrestler in modern history. The powers that be in Crockett Promotions saw this big guy that looked like he was carved out of granite and thought they could make him the NWA's Hulk Hogan. Hogan, like Luger, was shit in the ring but he got over like nobody else ever truly has. Luger was shit, couldn't draw a dime and how he became a 5 time U.S. Champion, let alone a 2 time World Champion, is beyond me. In terms of development Luger was impressive to look at, but then so is Jessica Alba in a bikini and she'd have about as much chance of getting by Vader as Luger would.

Vader is one of the best big men in the business in my view. A legitimate 400 pounder that was athletic and as strong as a fucking bull. He'd give Luger some of those stiff forearm shots, a few Vader Bombs and that's pretty much the story of the "Total Package" in the 3rd Annual Wrestlezone Tourney.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Not even remotely fucking close. In any way.

You go into the real aspects of things, Vade ris far more decorated, and talented. He got over through ring work, while Luger was just inexplicibly mega pushed werever he went. I dont think I have ever been even remotely entertained by any Lex Luger match, ever. he was atrocious.

If you go Kayfabe skillset , its still not even close. At the absolute apex of his kayfabe powers, Luger couldnt ever beat Yokozuna, who was far less talented and skilled than Vader. Not even close.

 

[jmt225]

I’m going to seriously vote for Lex Luger. If someone wants to vote for Vader just because he was the superior worker, I won’t argue with you. That’s your prerogative and the fact is… I don’t think Luger was overall the better worker. The only fault Vader had in the ring was that he injured people from time to time, but other then that… I can fully admit that Vader is the better worker in this contest. Both were equal on the mic since neither were very good, and both were very charismatic in their own right, but in-ring ability… the edge goes to Vader. I have no problem admitting that.

However, if you want to argue who has had the better career, or who would win in a match when these two men were in their primes… then I’m game to try and convince you that Luger undoubtedly wins both those categories. That’s why I’m ultimately voting for Luger: I feel he’s had the better career and because in kayfabe terms, I think he would kick Vader’s ass. Let’s look at their careers first.

Lex Luger is a former 2 time World Heavyweight Champion, 5 time United States Champion (plus having the longest reign in the history of that championship), 2 time Television Champion, and 2 time World Tag Team Champion. He is one of only two men to ever make Hulk Hogan submit in a wrestling match, and has victories over Sting, Ric Flair, Giant Baba, the Road Warriors, Barry Windham, Brian Pillman, Sid Vicious, Stan Hansen, The Great Muta, Masa Chono, Ron Simmons, Mr. Perfect, Yokozuna, Bam Bam Bigelow, Bret Hart, and many, many other huge names. He has had a VERY successful career and has, as you can see, defeated the best of the best this business has ever had to offer.

Vader has also had a great career, though. There’s no denying that. The dude’s former 3 time WCW World Champion himself, and also captured the US Championship and the AJPW Triple Crown Heavyweight Championship (3 times, in fact) as well, along with capturing the AJPW and IWGP Tag Team Titles. He also like Luger has had some very big wins in his career with victories over Antonio Inoki, Sting, Cactus Jack, Razor Ramon, Yokozuna, The Undertaker, The Rock (who was Rocky Maivia at the time), Misuharu Misawa, and various other great wrestlers.

When you look at it all, I can understand if you want to say Vader had the better career, especially when you look at where both ended up today, with Luger being terribly sick and Vader living a comfortable life. But to the average wrestling fan, I would say way more know about Luger’s accomplishments then they do Vader’s. Vader probably gained most recognition from being on Boy Meets World, to be honest. And let’s face facts… most of his best work has not been seen by the majority of wrestling fans out there. Luger, on the other hand, pretty much spent his ENTIRE career on top and in the spotlight. That’s really impressive when you think about it. He debuted in WCW in 1986, and was on top there, and his two and a half years in WWE, all the way up until it ended in 2001. That’s unbelievable. Vader also got off to a great start like Luger, but it only took a few years for him to slip down the card (mainly when he started in WWE is where it went downhill, for whatever reason) and by the late nineties, he was putting on shit matches in Japan. His prime was unbelievably great, but his success didn’t last nearly as long as Luger’s did and I don’t think there’s no arguing that Luger and his best moments are more known to the masses then Vader’s are.

Now, onto the kayfabe argument… I really don’t see how one could argue Vader being able to beat Luger in his prime. Luger beat the best of the best in this business as I mentioned earlier, and a lot of those names Luger beat… Vader was never to get wins over. Hulk Hogan, Sid, and Flair are all guys who beat Vader multiple times and that Vader could never defeat, where Luger had victories over all of them. And then you add on to the fact that Luger is smarter and faster than Vader, plus perhaps just as strong and tough as him as well… Luger has the clear advantage, in my opinion.

Of course this being in ECW and in Vader home state goes against Luger, but I think Luger could overcome that. It wouldn’t be easy, but Luger showed throughout his entire career how much heart he had in the wrestling ring. I mean, this guy has fought off the entire nWo and Four Horsmen plenty of times. If he could do something like that, then I think he could handle Vader in ECW. If someone wants to bring up the ‘hardcore’ environment… Luger has beaten Stand Hansen in a Bull Rope match and competed and won in War Games, so he’s been in plenty of situations where ‘being hardcore’ came into play. Plus, you can’t count out that Luger has a steel plate in his arm that he has put away PLENTY of big name wrestlers with, and that with his strength, I’m sure he can swing a chair as hard as anyone in the business ever could have. Plus, thinking about it… Vader really doesn’t have that many ‘hardcore’ matches under his belt anyway, so it’s sort of irrelevant. The only reason Vader is looked at for even being ‘hardcore’ is only because he was stiff in the ring, but that’s it. Being stiff has nothing to do with winning a pro wrestling match in kayfabe terms.

So, those are my opinions on the matter. I grew up watching Lex Luger and he was one of my favorite wrestlers all throughout my childhood, so I know his career very well. I know a lot of people like to look at him as a joke due to the drug use and the very unfortunate Miss Elizabeth situation, but I think everyone here, at one point or another, was a fan of Lex Luger (unless you started watching in the last few years). So try and rewind time to a place where Luger was one of the biggest babyfaces in the business and was someone who hardly anyone ever defeated. You were a fan of his. It’s hard to remember, but I guarantee you were and I know for a fact that if you rewind the clock back to 1992 and Lex Luger and Vader meet in a wrestling ring, no matter where it’s at, you’re going to be rooting for Lex Luger and you are going to be 100% certain that Luger doesn’t let you down and beats the holy hell out of Vader. Think about that and vote for Lex Luger.

 

[butsecks]

Luger beat hulk hogan, something that vader couldn't seem to pull. but hey, it isn't easy beating the hulkster. vader also lost the that glorified mid-carder ken shamrock and how can i forget mark henry. both luger and vader are former WCW World champions. but luger beat yokozuna, although by countout, he still knocked his fat ass out cold. luger's beaten stan hansen, vader's lost to him. luger beats baby bull and gets the win

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Lex Luger is in the running with Eddie Guerrero for most overrated wrestler of all time.

How can either man be over rated when everyone hates on them? I don't quite understand that. Besides, that's hardly fair to say that Eddie Guerrero is over rated. He put on entertaining matches, took care of his opponent in the ring, could speak well, and had a good reign as W.W.E. champion. He's got quite a good resume to back up his praise. Luger does too.

The man has a bloated resume that involved him doing next to nothing of note.

How did he do nothing of note? He holds victories over some of the biggest names of the late eighties and nineties. Lex Luger is a former multiple-time world champion. Save for David Arquette's reign, world champions are not handed out. It signifies that you are the biggest star in your industry, something that Lex Luger was for a time in the two largest wrestling promotions in the world.

Remember to take note that Vader's manager, Harley Race, managed Luger before managing Vader. Race knows Luger's every move and anything that Luger had in store for Vader, the Mastadon will be well schooled on.

It's funny you say that. How do you know that Race will be managing Vader in this match? He's likely preparing for his own match with Owen Hart, or he could be managing Luger. Your point here is moot.

Luger has the bionic forearm, but that's not going to help him when Vader is crushing his skull with punch after punch. Vader is going to send Luger packing after a brief comeback from Luger, and then the Vader Bomb from hell for a relatively easy win.

Funny, because I think it will be rather hard for Vader to crush Luger's skull in when he's been knocked out by the steel forearm from the on-set of the match. No matter how you slice it, it's impossible for Vader to avoid the forearm. It only takes one strike to get the advantage.

While I agree that EG is somewhat overrated, Luger is in a category all on his own. For me, Luger ranks right up there with the Ultimate Warrior as for being possibly the most overrated big name wrestler in modern history.

Luger and Warrior have a few things in common. A) They're incredibly well built and strong and B) They both went over every big name in the industry clean and hardly ever lost.

The powers that be in Crockett Promotions saw this big guy that looked like he was carved out of granite and thought they could make him the NWA's Hulk Hogan.

So you're saying he's strong and built well. When you look as though you're chiseled out of granite, you're obviously in great athletic shape and have good endurance. That is something that Vader cannot claim.

Hogan, like Luger, was shit in the ring but he got over like nobody else ever truly has. Luger was shit, couldn't draw a dime and how he became a 5 time U.S. Champion, let alone a 2 time World Champion, is beyond me.

Doesn't change the fact that he did those things. Besides, when do ratings and in-ring work equate to wins? They don't.

In terms of development Luger was impressive to look at, but then so is Jessica Alba in a bikini and she'd have about as much chance of getting by Vader as Luger would.

That's foolish to say. Luger was taller than Vader, had a much better build, is equally as strong (if not stronger), and has a steel plate in his forearm (meaning he always has a weapon available for quick use).

Vader is one of the best big men in the business in my view. A legitimate 400 pounder that was athletic and as strong as a fucking bull. He'd give Luger some of those stiff forearm shots, a few Vader Bombs and that's pretty much the story of the "Total Package" in the 3rd Annual Wrestlezone Tourney.

Again, I'm laughing. Luger would shrug off Vader's forearm shots and return with a few of his own, which we all know are much more devastating. Then, he'd load The Rocky Mountain Fatty onto his shoulders and Torture him into submission.

Not even remotely fucking close. In any way.

Good point. I was giving Vader too much credit. Luger would likely win pretty decisively.

You go into the real aspects of things, Vade ris far more decorated, and talented.

Not really. Luger is equally decorated. I'll give you a slight edge in talent, but only slight. I'm not one to go ape shit over a "sort of moonsault".

He got over through ring work, while Luger was just inexplicibly mega pushed werever he went. I dont think I have ever been even remotely entertained by any Lex Luger match, ever. he was atrocious.

Who cares why Luger was pushed and who cares if he matches were good? Simply put, he was pushed wherever he went and he always was a top star.

If you go Kayfabe skillset , its still not even close. At the absolute apex of his kayfabe powers, Luger couldnt ever beat Yokozuna, who was far less talented and skilled than Vader. Not even close.

Luger holds a victory over Yokozuna though.. Even if he gave him trouble, Yoko is beyond massive. He gave everyone trouble.

As you can tell, I'm voting Luger. You should too.

Oh, and if you really need convincing, read JMT's post. He's far more knowledgeable and skilled than I.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Anyone who puts Luger over in this match is delusional. Nothing personal. Just facts.

FACT: Vader hurt people. Vader is a guy who's stiff, nearly 450 pounds and agile. He took every shot Stan Hansen gave him, INCLUDING nearly having his eyeball taken out of the socket and still managed a no contest. Luger would have started puking all over the ring and we'd have to have a quick finish.

FACT: Luger was the most overhyped wrestler that's stepped foot in a ring. Luger had the look. That's the constant you hear about 'The Total Package'. His skillset was limited to a forearm that was aided by metal and a Torture Rack. If Luger even lifted Vader into this move, I'd swell.

FACT: The Harley Race argument's already been said, but you can't dispute scouting someone's opponent and Vader knows how to win.

FACT: E-C DUB! E-C DUB! Vader can use weapons. The end.


Vader wins this, makes Luger consider changing career paths and drinks beer. Lots of beer.

VOTE! VADER TIME!

 

[klunderbunker]

How can either man be over rated when everyone hates on them? I don't quite understand that. Besides, that's hardly fair to say that Eddie Guerrero is over rated. He put on entertaining matches, took care of his opponent in the ring, could speak well, and had a good reign as W.W.E. champion. He's got quite a good resume to back up his praise. Luger does too.

Two things: Eddie's title reign sucked. No one except his few die hard fans that aren't going to listen to reason no matter what is going to argue that. No one cared about his feuds and he put on one ok match. No one gave a damn about him until the final year of his career, and even then it was nothing special. The ratings bombed during his reign, because it was crap.

How did he do nothing of note? He holds victories over some of the biggest names of the late eighties and nineties. Lex Luger is a former multiple-time world champion. Save for David Arquette's reign, world champions are not handed out. It signifies that you are the biggest star in your industry, something that Lex Luger was for a time in the two largest wrestling promotions in the world.

And if Luger had ever won the WWF Title, this would mean something. However, you could substitute Vader's name into that equation and it works just as well.

It's funny you say that. How do you know that Race will be managing Vader in this match? He's likely preparing for his own match with Owen Hart, or he could be managing Luger. Your point here is moot.

The rules say in the wrestler's prime. In Vader's prime, he would have Race with him.

Funny, because I think it will be rather hard for Vader to crush Luger's skull in when he's been knocked out by the steel forearm from the on-set of the match. No matter how you slice it, it's impossible for Vader to avoid the forearm. It only takes one strike to get the advantage.

And as for Vader not being able to avoid the forearm, there's one ancient Japanese method that only the finest trained athletes in the world could do. He eyes his opponent carefully, he gagues the distance, and as the crowd holds its breath.............HE DUCKS! Really, how hard is it to avoid a running forearm as Luger screams when he's coming? Not to mention, as I've said, if Vader goes on the offense early on, it won't be a factor.

A lot of your points are simply incorrect. Luger in no way shape or form was stronger than Vader. He had a better build and that's all. Luger would do nothing but the same predictable offense every single night and try to end it by doing something stupid like racking Vader. Everything Luger did, Vader has done as well and has done them better. Vader would bust Luger up so bad he'd have to take more time off to heal and find a better roids vendor. Mastadon in a walk.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Anyone who puts Luger over in this match is delusional. Nothing personal. Just facts.

We'll see.

FACT: Vader hurt people. Vader is a guy who's stiff, nearly 450 pounds and agile. He took every shot Stan Hansen gave him, INCLUDING nearly having his eyeball taken out of the socket and still managed a no contest. Luger would have started puking all over the ring and we'd have to have a quick finish.

That's a very good point. I'm sure that if Vader started working too stiff in the ring, Luger would panic and react, probably starting to actually punch Vader. Again, though, good point. I can't really argue this one.

FACT: Luger was the most overhyped wrestler that's stepped foot in a ring. Luger had the look. That's the constant you hear about 'The Total Package'. His skillset was limited to a forearm that was aided by metal and a Torture Rack. If Luger even lifted Vader into this move, I'd swell.

He lifted Big Show onto his shoulders and made him tap. He lifted HULK HOGAN onto his shoulders and made him submit. He could do the same to Vader. Besides, his opponents knew that Luger had a limited skill set involving his forearm, slams, and the torture rack but he still won nearly all of his matches.

And how does it matter for this match that he was overhyped?

FACT: The Harley Race argument's already been said, but you can't dispute scouting someone's opponent and Vader knows how to win.

Luger can do the same.

FACT: E-C DUB! E-C DUB! Vader can use weapons. The end.

Luger can legally hit Vader with his forearm whenever he gets close and use the same weapons that Vader can. The end. The Total Package can also, after he grounds Vader, put his arm in a chair and proceed to snap it like he did to many others. Let's see Vader bomb him after that.

Vader wins this, makes Luger consider changing career paths and drinks beer. Lots of beer.

I hope he drinks a lot of beer. He'll be too drunk to fight. That'd be wonderful.

VOTE! VADER TIME!

Vote Luger.

Two things: Eddie's title reign sucked. No one except his few die hard fans that aren't going to listen to reason no matter what is going to argue that. No one cared about his feuds and he put on one ok match. No one gave a damn about him until the final year of his career, and even then it was nothing special. The ratings bombed during his reign, because it was crap.

By good, I meant good length. He was a strong champion, fought all comers. He beat Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, The Big Show, Rey Mysterio and J.B.L. (in a bullrope match, though the decision was reversed by Kurt Angle) during his reign. That's pretty impressive. I'm not arguing for Eddie Guerrero though.

And if Luger had ever won the WWF Title, this would mean something. However, you could substitute Vader's name into that equation and it works just as well.

Vader would have never won the title in WWF. He was never a real main-eventer there.

The rules say in the wrestler's prime. In Vader's prime, he would have Race with him.

Alright, then. It only takes a moment for Luger to go outside and knock ol' Harley out cold.

And as for Vader not being able to avoid the forearm, there's one ancient Japanese method that only the finest trained athletes in the world could do. He eyes his opponent carefully, he gagues the distance, and as the crowd holds its breath.............HE DUCKS! Really, how hard is it to avoid a running forearm as Luger screams when he's coming? Not to mention, as I've said, if Vader goes on the offense early on, it won't be a factor.

It doesn't have to be running. Whenever Vader is within arms range, he can swing his forearm at him. It's going to hit, and it's going to hit often. And Shawn Michaels stomps loudly before SCM, but he hits that way more often than with a quick one.

A lot of your points are simply incorrect. Luger in no way shape or form was stronger than Vader. He had a better build and that's all. Luger would do nothing but the same predictable offense every single night and try to end it by doing something stupid like racking Vader. Everything Luger did, Vader has done as well and has done them better. Vader would bust Luger up so bad he'd have to take more time off to heal and find a better roids vendor. Mastadon in a walk.

Prove that he isn't stronger. Could Vader slam Yokozuna? I've never seen him do it. Luger did it.

Shawn Michaels, Triple H, John Cena, and Randy Orton all do the same offense every night, but they've been pretty successful. So has Luger. He has used that same offense to defeat the likes of Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, The Big Show, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Yokozuna, Mr. Perfect, and Randy Savage. That's an impressive list. Apparently, his offense works quite well.

I'll give you that there are points to be made for Vader winning, but it in no way should be a walk. Both men were too strong, too good. They both won a lot of matches and championships. It'd be a good contest.

 

[Shocky]

I don't think this match is the squash that people make it out to be, not by a longshot.

Now, let's be clear, my vote is very much up in the air, with me leaning towards one, considering the stipulation. However, it's going to be hard to vote against someone, by my count, that is a 12 time former World Champion. Very few men can lay claim to that many world titles, and Vader has done it on 3 different continents, in multiple promotions. The guy is worth all of the hype, especially with the extreme background in this match.

However, to say Luger has no shot is a bit of a stretch. The guy was, I believe, the first WCW Grand Slam Champion, as he won all of the titles the company had to offer him at the time. He's beaten a list of whose who in their primes as well. Luger strength, how artificially created or not, should be a non issue. Honestly condeming a body in wrestling for having steroids is a stupid argument, as probably damn near 100% of wrestlers since the 80's have used roids at one point or another.

Luger has a few things that people seem to over look. His strength negates Vaders. Luger is stronger then big ban vader. Lex Luger has been able to torture rack a man the size of the Giant (Big Show for the babes on here) and body slam the likes of Yokozuna, too men with a considerable size advantage on a Vader. Plus, as stupid as some make it out to be, the flying forearm with the steel plate in it, is legal in this match. That move, kayfabe wise, knocked everyone out that got hit by it. You might not like it, but that is a fact. The flying forearme, coupled with the torture rack, makes Lex Luger every bit of dangerous to Vader as anyone else.

I'd liek to say that Harley Race shoudn't be a factor. If you want him to be, that's fine, but the man is still active in the tournament, which puts him about 1000 miles north of Denver.

Lex Luger doesn't have to beat Big Van Vader, he just has to knock him out. Luger managed to beat Yokozuna at Summerslam via countout, and a countout in this tournament moves you on.

I'm not neccessarily voting for Luger, but an argument needs to be made for that side.

 

[justinsayne]

The flying forearme, coupled with the torture rack, makes Lex Luger every bit of dangerous to Vader as anyone else.

Do you really think Luger can get Vaders fat ass up in the torture rack though?, I mean I realize Luger was a strong son of a bitch but Vader was freaking huge, not to mention I'm not so sure the flying forearm would knock Vader out, steel plate or not, at least not a single one, and if Vader is the beast that IC likes to make him out to be, exactly how many opportunities would Luger even have to hit the forearm?

Lex Luger doesn't have to beat Big Van Vader, he just has to knock him out. Luger managed to beat Yokozuna at Summerslam via countout, and a countout in this tournament moves you on.

I could be mistaken, but this is ECW, and if I remember right there are no count outs in ECW, again I could be mistaken most of the ECW matches I've seen have been via WWE DVDs soo.... yeah

I by no means am a Vader fan but I just don't so anyway that Luger goes ever Vader here, or anywhere for that matter, I mean Vader can use weapons so imagine Vader knocking the shit out a Luger, then setting a steel chair on Lugers unconscious body and delivering a Vader bomb, then going back up and hitting a moonsault, I see the match ending right there

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Justinsayne has taken me to task for what he calls my "Vader-love" for more than a year now. And HE even says that Luger's got no shot in this match. Justin's about as objective a voice as you can get here.

The amazing thing is, 48.7, that you were just a week ago railing against Luger and why he should go out to Finlay. By implication, you are claiming that Finlay is better than Vader? I think you're just trying to gather attention for yourself, personally.

You state that Luger holds a win over Yokozuna. It's a count-out win with use of a foreign object. Luger NEVER actually BEAT Yokozuna. And Vader crushed Yokozuna, even in WWE.

JMT, I don't want you to feel slighted. I am going to respond to you when I have the time to put the effort in that someone with your posting and research skills deserves. It's out of respct for you. 48.7, on the other hand, is someone I can handle in roughly 12 seconds.

 

[Shocky]

Do you really think Luger can get Vaders fat ass up in the torture rack though?, I mean I realize Luger was a strong son of a bitch but Vader was freaking huge, not to mention I'm not so sure the flying forearm would knock Vader out, steel plate or not, at least not a single one, and if Vader is the beast that IC likes to make him out to be, exactly how many opportunities would Luger even have to hit the forearm?

I'm pretty sure that I remember Luger getting the Giant on his shoulders, so if he can get him, he can get Vader. That forearm knocked everyone out to, including the Giant in WCW when that wasn't even used as a storyline gimmick like in the WWF. I'm not saying Luger can hit it, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. The flying forearm is a high impact, sudden move. It doesn't require a whole lot of set up. All it takes is an instant, with Vader not paying attention or just rattled, and Luger might well be able to nail him with it. Is it enough to put Vader down? I'm not sure.

I could be mistaken, but this is ECW, and if I remember right there are no count outs in ECW, again I could be mistaken most of the ECW matches I've seen have been via WWE DVDs soo.... yeah

I by no means am a Vader fan but I just don't so anyway that Luger goes ever Vader here, or anywhere for that matter, I mean Vader can use weapons so imagine Vader knocking the shit out a Luger, then setting a steel chair on Lugers unconscious body and delivering a Vader bomb, then going back up and hitting a moonsault, I see the match ending right there

That's true. I keep thinking of the watered down version of ECW where Rey Mysterio and Sabu fought each other and then the match ended because Rey Rey got his ass kicked. Luger knocking Vader on the floor won't do him much good in this scenario.

And yes, if Vader manages to lay out Luger, this match is over no doubt.

 

[Miko]

Leaning towards Luger here, he seems to have that level of underappreciation that seems to go with most big, well built guys. Vader was a beast in his career but Luger has accomplished a lot as well, making the biggest name in wrestling history submit to the torture rack, could he lift Vader up into the Torture Rack? I say yes.

Sure Vaders a stiff worker but, well so what? Outside of legitimately injuring Luger (a possibility lets face it) that doesnt help at all. Fact is I dont think Vader at his peak could defeat Lex Luger at his.

 

[klunderbunker]

Something a lot of people seem to be assuming here is that Luger's prime was in the mid 90s, after his forearm was operated on. However, I think his prime might have been his time prior to that. Consider this.

Before the accident resulting in the steel plate: Luger held the WCW World title once in the early 90s for 230 days, or nearly eight months. He also held the US Title for approximately a year and a half. Luger had 5 US title reigns in his career, totaling 948 days. Of those 948, a whopping total of 1 came after his accident. He was a member of the Four Horsemen, which was a huge deal back then as they were only the elite of the business at the time.

Now let's take a look at his resume post accident: one WCW TItle reign, lasting 5 days, two tag title reigns, one lasting one day, two TV (lower midcard) title reigns, again with one lasting one day, a one day reign as US champion, and co-winner of the 1994 Royal Rumble. Comparing this to an 8 month world title reign and an 18 month US Title reign, how can anyone argue he was in his prime after 92, when he was in the wreck, resulting in the steel plate being put into his arm?

When he was WCW Champion in the early 90s, Luger was by far and away the dominant heel at this time as Vader wasn't a huge deal yet, and he did not use the torture rack. He was using a move called the Attitude Adjustment (can WWE ever come up with something original?), a piledriver. Now, Luger is a strong man, but he simply could not get Vader up into a piledriver, and if he did, it wouldn't be enough to put him down. Also, Luger had no steel in his forearm at this time. Without the forearm and possibly no rack, what possible chance does Luger have against Vader?

 

[SavageTaker]

KB you make some very good points there.

I want to say that Lex Luger has a bigger chance of winning in ECW than he does in the other 3 companies. Reason being is that he gets to use weapons. But see the problem there is that Vader was a beast without weapons, so just imagine what he would be with the assist of weapons.

Also, Vader is a legit tough guy. How many wrestlers can say that they continued a match after having their Eye knocked out of the socket. Let me answer that for you, Not Many.

He is what a true monster heel represented and was a dangerous worker, causing many injuries to many wrestlers, and Luger will not be any exception here as Vader picks up the win and moves on to the Next round.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Luger is stronger than Vader? I don't think so. I don't doubt Luger was a strong guy, anybody that's ever seen him go up against Yokozuna or Paul Wight back when he was The Giant really could. As far as the torture rack goes, Luger got Wight in it back before he was well north of 400 pounds. Vader also has a thick, stocky and compact build that's much harder to handle. As far as a body slam goes, if Luger could do it without Yoko's aid in the slam, then I'd be simply amazed. However, I've seen old footage of Vader back in his WCW days working out and clean and jerking about 500 pounds with relative ease. Pulling 500 pounds of dead weight off the floor, up to his upper chest and then press it up over his head. He wasn't even struggling with it. Now, when you consider the current world record in that lift is about 582 pounds, and was significantly less in 1993 around the time Vader was in WCW, it gives you an idea of the guy's real strength. Luger was super cut, that doesn't automatically equal super strong. Given that this is an ECW environment where extreme rules apply, Luger has less of a chance than he normally would. Vader with weapons...not a pleasant thought.

 

[Tastycles]

Vader wins. Aside from the fact that their resumes are similar in the US, you have to realise that I think Vader might be the only person ever to have been a top champion in a top company in all three major wrestling markets, a few have done USA and Japan, a few mre have done Mexico and Japan, but noody to my recollection has done all three except Vader.

Luger was a power guy, and he did manage to get Yokozuna down, but Yokozuna relied entirely on strength, whilst Vader has a lot more to bring to the table, like genuine agility, for example.

I can't really see how Luger will win this.He beat Yokozuna by count out, but tha won't help him here, neither will ECW who's brutality will play right into Vader's hands also. Vader victory.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Luger has a few things that people seem to over look. His strength negates Vaders. Luger is stronger then big ban vader. Lex Luger has been able to torture rack a man the size of the Giant (Big Show for the babes on here) and body slam the likes of Yokozuna, too men with a considerable size advantage on a Vader.

Ok, Shocky, time for Physics 101. Dr. IC25 will be your professor.

Let's assme Luger is AS STRONG AS Vader. He's not "stronger" overall, as has already been mentioned with his ability to clean and jerk 500+ lbs without the aid of special equipment. But for the sake of YOUR argument, let's assue they are of equal power.

Vader's weight - 450 lbs
Luger's weight - 275 lbs

It's a simple case of kinesiology, really. Let's say Luger can slam Vader a few times - the amount of kinetic energy the human body - even Luger's - would have to produce for a 275 lb man to slam / throw a 450 lb man is FAR greater than the amount of energy a 450 lb man would have to produce to do the exact same thing to the 275 lb man.

The result? If Luger goes for power moves, he's going to gas. It's the same thing that doomed Sting all those times - sure, Luger is strong enough to slam Vader - after all, Vader weighs 55 lbs less than Yoko did when Luger hit him with that glorified hip toss. But think of how much that would take out of Luger's gas tank.

Here's the other issue with this "flawless Luger power logic." Vader doesn't suffer from the turtle syndrome. He doesn't have to roll onto his stomach to get up off the mat. Vader got slammed by Sting on MANY occassions, and Vader just stoof back up and got back on the defense.

So Luger's power absolutely DOES NOT negate Vaders. In fact, if Luger goes to the power game, he's shortening the match for himself, because believe it or not, the fatigue resulting from the slam would be far greater than the damage of the slam itself.

 

[NSL]

I don't know how the hell Luger got over Finlay, so I'm definitely not voting him over Vader. I never liked anything about him, and don't see why he was ever pushed. His only time of interest was when he feuded with Buff Bagwell, in my opinion.

Vader is bigger, stronger, and arguably faster than Luger. He'll man-handle him for a little while, let him get an elbow or two in, and then give him a VaderBomb to end it.

 

[Slyfox696]

The IC kool-aid is so thick it makes me nauseous. Vader is good, no doubt, but better than the Total Package? What a laugh. I was tempted to not even post in this thread since the outcome is pretty much decided, but I felt I had to get this out.

Vader is a fucking tool compared to Lex Luger. I mean, I know he was big in Japan and all, but what exactly did he accomplish in America, which last time I checked, is where this tournament takes place. What, he was World Champion of WCW at a time that NO ONE watched them, and they were hemorrhaging money worse than ECW in 2000? Yeah, I'll pass on that. But, let's just look at his great WWF run shall we? No, we shan't because it never happened. In fact, the most memorable part of his WWF run was getting yelled at and embarrassed by Shawn Michaels at Summerslam '96, in one of the worst main-events in wrestling history.

Let's compare that to Lex Luger. Here's a guy that was MEGA over in both WCW and WWF. A guy who was asked to be a franchise player in both the WWF and WCW. And if Luger hadn't gotten drunk and hadn't left the WWF, he would have been a World Champion in both WWF and WCW, two companies that are far greater than the miserable ECW was. Lex Luger was a top rate face, and a top of the line heel. He was loved and hated, even at the same time. He was a bad guy that people cheered because he still did the right thing sometimes. His character in WCW in the mid 90s was VERY complex and he pulled it off wonderfully.

Finally, I would like to offer this evidence:

[youtube]ZOwDEhOLXIk[/youtube]


Find me an instance where people EVER reacted like that for Vader. Good luck.

 

[Theo Mays]

I think this would be a great contest. Not really a fan of Luger and I like Vader. Vader has my vote, but Luger will really give him a battle. Weapons will help Luger, but they will help Vader just as much. Vader wins with a moonsault through a table.

 

[Tastycles]

Finally, I would like to offer this evidence:

[youtube]ZOwDEhOLXIk[/youtube]


Find me an instance where people EVER reacted like that for Vader. Good luck.

I'm not going to argue this match, because I could have gone either way, and it is pretty much entirely my own personal dislike for Luger that caused me to vote Vader, he ws only interesting to me as the narcissist, and he never accomplished very much as that character.

However, this piece of evidence offered is entirely taken out of context. Luger gets 90% of that reaction because he was the one who took the title off the nWo for the first time. If Juventud Guerrera had won, he'd have got the same reaction. You could say that Luger was the one chosen to do it, which is a fair point, but to base Luger's personal popularity on the reaction is a little deceitful.

Vader is renown for working stiff, and the only match where Luger has worked against somebody being stiff and noselling him was this one

[youtube]epmXA8w0Qjo[/youtube]

This reflects Brody's lack of professionalism more than anything, but it also shows that Luger bottled it after being subjected to no selling, and left the ring. If he does that against Vader, Vader will go and get him.

 

[Slyfox696]

However, this piece of evidence offered is entirely taken out of context. Luger gets 90% of that reaction because he was the one who took the title off the nWo for the first time. If Juventud Guerrera had won, he'd have got the same reaction. You could say that Luger was the one chosen to do it, which is a fair point, but to base Luger's personal popularity on the reaction is a little deceitful.

Bull, Juventud Guerrera would not have gotten the same reaction, not even close. Lex Luger WAS WCW at the time, and when WCW needed him. Those fans didn't cheer him because he opposed Hogan, they cheered him because he was their hero, the shining light against the nWo darkness.

Vader has NEVER been close to something like that.

Vader is renown for working stiff, and the only match where Luger has worked against somebody being stiff and noselling him was this one

[youtube]epmXA8w0Qjo[/youtube]

This reflects Brody's lack of professionalism more than anything, but it also shows that Luger bottled it after being subjected to no selling, and left the ring. If he does that against Vader, Vader will go and get him.

That's not working stiff, that's being an ass. Not only is he violating the trust in his partner, an essential element to making a good match, he's also cheating those fans out of their hard-earned money. Let's put it this way. Lex Luger was a very highly conditioned athlete, and was a former collegiate level football player at one of the most prestigious football universities in America. Lex Luger played professional football. Do you really think he'd be scared of Bruiser Brody? I highly doubt it. He left because what was going on was ridiculous, and he chose not to be a part of it. He tried like crazy to get Brody to work with him, and when it was obvious that Brody wouldn't, he left.

That says NOTHING about Luger's ability, merely his intelligence. So, if your point was to prove that Lex Luger is an intelligent wrestler, as well as a power wrestler, then you made your point.

The fact of the matter is that Vader isn't in Luger's league, and never has been. The only reason people vote for him is because they drink the IC kool-aid.