ECW Dallas: Round 1, Match 2: #32 Austin Aries vs. #33 El Santo
- Thread starter Shocky
- Start date
- Status
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Austin Aries - a mid-card indy quasi-star with a few high spots and an ROH fllowing, vs a Mexican Legend and on of the greatest Luchadors in pro history.
The choice is clear - vote for El Santo here. I am sure Tastycles and I will give you folks enough ammo for him, but I don't see why we'd use it against an over rated upstart like Austin Aries Starr. Santo had a terrific prime. Aries, well, never had a prime.
The choice is clear - vote for El Santo here. I am sure Tastycles and I will give you folks enough ammo for him, but I don't see why we'd use it against an over rated upstart like Austin Aries Starr. Santo had a terrific prime. Aries, well, never had a prime.
For the sake of making a point, I'm not going to announce who I'm voting for. That's how freaking obvious it should be.
We have the greatest start to come out of Mexico... bar none. He's on a level alongside Rikidozan and Lou Thesz. Possibly a little bellow Thesz, but certainly there with Dozan. You could make a perfectly valid argument that Santo was bigger in Mexico than Hogan was in the US. Hogan played the part of being a national hero. Santo actually was a national hero.
Tastycles will surely offer a better breakdown that I can (Mexico mostly passed me by), but any avid wrestling fan would need to have spent the last seventy years living under a rock, and to have then clubbed themselves repeatedly with it, to not recognise the achievements of Santo.
We have the greatest start to come out of Mexico... bar none. He's on a level alongside Rikidozan and Lou Thesz. Possibly a little bellow Thesz, but certainly there with Dozan. You could make a perfectly valid argument that Santo was bigger in Mexico than Hogan was in the US. Hogan played the part of being a national hero. Santo actually was a national hero.
Tastycles will surely offer a better breakdown that I can (Mexico mostly passed me by), but any avid wrestling fan would need to have spent the last seventy years living under a rock, and to have then clubbed themselves repeatedly with it, to not recognise the achievements of Santo.
I'm saving my best Santo arguments for when he fights the proper Austin, but in this first instance I'll just say what should be enough.
Austin Aries is a moderate deal in Ring of Honor and pretty much fucked up his chance of acheiving anything at TNA twice. He probably wouldn't get over 90% of the people in the first round of this tournament, and he is against the greatest wrestler of all time, so he really hould be going home.
If you judge a good wrestler by someone who draws: Vote Santo because not only was he the most popular wrestler of all time in Mexico, he was one of the most popular people ever full stop. Santo starred in films, and came 8th in a poll of greatest ever Mexicans. He drew consistently for around 40 years, and there are very very few people who even come close. I don't mean in a Ric Flair "he was wrestling for 30 years, top draw for about 15" way, I mean he was the guy people came to see for over 40 years. He wrestled for nearly 50. Just by dying, he managed to draw 10,000 people to his funeral. Santo drew 10 times as many people as Aries ever has when he was dead.
This is one of a few statues erected of Santo. That is how revered he is.
If you are the kind of person who votes based on acheivements: Vote Santo. He only won 6 national titles, but titles mean nothing in Mexican wrestling. Even so, that's still more than Aries, who has two Ring of Honor titles. I digress. What matters in lucha libre is masks. Mask matches are rare, and high profile ones rarer. The incomplete list of Santo's mask match wins puts him on 16. To contextualise that, El Canek, who IC25 will be pushing to high heaven won 4. Rey Mysterio has won 4, 5 if you include his match against Kane. That kind of feat has not been matched by anyone, and it probably won't ever. He has also won lots of hair matches, which are fought against people wthout masks.
If you like in ring work: Santo was doing flips and executing them better than Aries when he was 60 years old. Santo, like many Mexican wrestlers, was far more than a jumping bean. He would win via submission, using the Camel Clutch before the Original Sheik. Mexican wrestling is generally more technical than American wrestling anyway, and while Santo was not the best technician in lucha libre, he was by no means anything less than good.
So, it's your choice. You can either pick someone who every single one of you would put in their top ten if you knew enough, or you can pick somebody who is somewhere in the top ten of the Ring of Honor roster. Seriously, vote Santo.
EDIT- I've just noticed that the picture is actually of his son. A fine wrestler in his own right, but not the man in this match up.
Austin Aries is a moderate deal in Ring of Honor and pretty much fucked up his chance of acheiving anything at TNA twice. He probably wouldn't get over 90% of the people in the first round of this tournament, and he is against the greatest wrestler of all time, so he really hould be going home.
If you judge a good wrestler by someone who draws: Vote Santo because not only was he the most popular wrestler of all time in Mexico, he was one of the most popular people ever full stop. Santo starred in films, and came 8th in a poll of greatest ever Mexicans. He drew consistently for around 40 years, and there are very very few people who even come close. I don't mean in a Ric Flair "he was wrestling for 30 years, top draw for about 15" way, I mean he was the guy people came to see for over 40 years. He wrestled for nearly 50. Just by dying, he managed to draw 10,000 people to his funeral. Santo drew 10 times as many people as Aries ever has when he was dead.
This is one of a few statues erected of Santo. That is how revered he is.
If you are the kind of person who votes based on acheivements: Vote Santo. He only won 6 national titles, but titles mean nothing in Mexican wrestling. Even so, that's still more than Aries, who has two Ring of Honor titles. I digress. What matters in lucha libre is masks. Mask matches are rare, and high profile ones rarer. The incomplete list of Santo's mask match wins puts him on 16. To contextualise that, El Canek, who IC25 will be pushing to high heaven won 4. Rey Mysterio has won 4, 5 if you include his match against Kane. That kind of feat has not been matched by anyone, and it probably won't ever. He has also won lots of hair matches, which are fought against people wthout masks.
If you like in ring work: Santo was doing flips and executing them better than Aries when he was 60 years old. Santo, like many Mexican wrestlers, was far more than a jumping bean. He would win via submission, using the Camel Clutch before the Original Sheik. Mexican wrestling is generally more technical than American wrestling anyway, and while Santo was not the best technician in lucha libre, he was by no means anything less than good.
So, it's your choice. You can either pick someone who every single one of you would put in their top ten if you knew enough, or you can pick somebody who is somewhere in the top ten of the Ring of Honor roster. Seriously, vote Santo.
EDIT- I've just noticed that the picture is actually of his son. A fine wrestler in his own right, but not the man in this match up.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Santo. I know little of his in ring work but from what I've heard of it was solid. That being said, Santo wins this based on greatness. From what I understand, he's the Hogan of Mexico. That's enough for me to vote for him. Easy for me as Aries has never proven himself outside of ROH while Santo conquered a country that is wreslting crazy.
I'll be voting for El Santo, and that was even before Tastycles argument for him. The only real threat he'll face here is the indy fans, and the people who love to claim that being a luchador is being a spot monkey.
While he should win by a large margin, and then have a great fight against Stone Cold, chances are he'll win a squeaker here. That could hurt him in the next round when people see that he barely beat a nobody Austin, how can he beat a big name Austin?
While he should win by a large margin, and then have a great fight against Stone Cold, chances are he'll win a squeaker here. That could hurt him in the next round when people see that he barely beat a nobody Austin, how can he beat a big name Austin?
We're all such big Lucha fans at WZ, there's really no other option but to vote for...Austin Aries. Why? Because El Santo is interchangeable. A couple of weeks ago, somebody could have produced a picture of him and asked who he was. You would have got the name Austin Aries before somebody successfully guessed El Santo.
Another reason is that most of you, no wait, all of you have seen more Aries matches than you have Santo. You're also a bigger fan of ROH than you are Lucha. Why? Because for Lucha you watch the X-Division. You don't check out Mexican promotions. But you will sporadically watch ROH. Even Sly does.
A vote for El Santo is a bullshit vote.
Another reason is that most of you, no wait, all of you have seen more Aries matches than you have Santo. You're also a bigger fan of ROH than you are Lucha. Why? Because for Lucha you watch the X-Division. You don't check out Mexican promotions. But you will sporadically watch ROH. Even Sly does.
A vote for El Santo is a bullshit vote.
I've probably seen more Shark Boy matches than I have seen Ultimate Warrior matches, that means nothing.
Personally, i've seen pretty much every El Santo match I could have. He died before I was born, and before they filmed everything, so clearly there's not that much to be seen, but there is definitely enough to see that he would beat Austin Aries. I looked up Aries for the purpose of this tournament, and have probably watched about 15 minutes of Ring of Honor in my life, when the wrestling channel still existed.
I watch Lucha Libre whenever I get the chance to, and have been to more lucha libre events than any other kind of wrestling.
To be honest, maybe you're right about the picture thing, but you shouldn't be. You'd probably get as many people who couldn't identify Sammartino or Thesz from a picture, and they were pretty big deals.
People, clearly including yourself, think that lucha libre is just Psicosis doing 100 moonsaults, but it really isn't. Whether you know who Santo is or not doesn't matter, because if you look him up, you will see that he is one of the most important wrestlers of all time, and that he definitely wouldn't lose to Austin Aries.
Personally, i've seen pretty much every El Santo match I could have. He died before I was born, and before they filmed everything, so clearly there's not that much to be seen, but there is definitely enough to see that he would beat Austin Aries. I looked up Aries for the purpose of this tournament, and have probably watched about 15 minutes of Ring of Honor in my life, when the wrestling channel still existed.
I watch Lucha Libre whenever I get the chance to, and have been to more lucha libre events than any other kind of wrestling.
To be honest, maybe you're right about the picture thing, but you shouldn't be. You'd probably get as many people who couldn't identify Sammartino or Thesz from a picture, and they were pretty big deals.
People, clearly including yourself, think that lucha libre is just Psicosis doing 100 moonsaults, but it really isn't. Whether you know who Santo is or not doesn't matter, because if you look him up, you will see that he is one of the most important wrestlers of all time, and that he definitely wouldn't lose to Austin Aries.
How many dominant Shark Boy matches have you seen, that's the real question here.
You're a minority. You're also comparing 15 minutes of ROH to what you are saying is probably several hours of El Santo. The purpose of the tournament is to give a fair evaluation of each wrestler. You can't do that if you've hardly seen a certain wrestler.
It's also why I think a lot of the older wrestlers shouldn't be in the tournament. People might vote based off their impact on the business. If that's the case then let's have a Hogan/Vince McMahon final now.
Although I'm the same as everybody else. I've not seen much El Santo. Maybe half a dozen matches. But I'll be voting for Aries to negate any other votes of people who are voting like sheep.
But the most popular for of wrestling, in general, is the WWE style. Aries is closer to that than El Santo is.
People would be able to point out Sammartino. But not Thesz. If you played my little picture game the most common answer would be ''Grandad''.
I know. I've made a considerable effort over the years to buy Lucha DVDs, I also went to a Luch show about 6 months ago.
Not really. There would be more talk about him if he was. Important to Mexican wrestling, but not to global wrestling.
Well, he could. Aries could use that move on him, that one that beats most of his opponents.
I would ask how he could beat Austin Aries. But I suspect the answer would be because you just think it's better. That's cool. I couldn't come up witha convincing argument as to how Aries beats Santo either.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
A vote for El Santo is a vote for honest to God research.
Yes, I have seen more Austin Stairies (see what I did there?) matches than El Santo matches, and that's enough to make me realize that Aries is not very special. He hasn't carried a promotion. He's a blip on the radar. He's a big deal in the small-time ROH, but when he's in TNA, he's barely mid-card.
El Santo not only carried a promotion, he carried a country. El Santo may be one of the most relevant characters in wrestling.
I am not basing my argument on "Mexico treats wrestlers like Gods and in the US they are a dime a dozen." Not a fan of that argument. What I am saying is that, in a culture where wrestlers ARE revered, El Santo is held among the highest.
El Santo is to Mexico what Rikidozan is to Japan and Hogan is to the USA. He's one of the most important figures in the development of the Lucha style, and men like the Guerreros, Mysterio, Juvi, etc. owe him a debt of gratitude.
Nobody owes Austin Aries / Starr jack shit. If he retired tomorrow, the world would go on without so much as a ripple.
Santo's funeral remains one of the biggest and most well-attended in the storied history of the country of Mexico. He has statues in city squares.
Not only is this choice easy, but El Santo will give Austin a run for his money in round two.
Research? I thought the point of forums was fun? You should look up El Santo is you want to, not because of a little tournament.
Yes, it's terrible. It's like me saying El Shito. You're smarter than that.
What you on about homes. Seen how he does that thing on the apron, it's a spin splash type thing. It's awesome and it's the match winner here.
There's no ''I'' in team.
Lucky for you I conducted a poll. It says more people on this forum have heard of Austin Aries than they have El Santo. I think the final score was 15 to Aries, 4 to El Santo and 182 for Eh?.
Now who's not doen his research. He wasn't barely mid card. He was mid card. Very amusing while he was at it as well. You liked him as well. I remember you saying how much you enjoyed his matches with Backlund. It was the overselling that made that match.
Mexico? Everybody knows that those American Mexicans really carry that country.
Yeah, he's the original Luchadore.
In a promotion where EVERYBODY is revered, Austin Aries is held among the highest.
Dollar vs. Peso, that's what we're on about here. Which is worth more?
Burchill to England, Piper to Scotland. I get it. Only I don't, because people care about Hogan, but not the other two.
Good job this match is held in American then. If El Santo was lucky enough to be around in the late 90's he might have found his rightful place in the L.W.O. They could have just switched him round with Silver King, nobody would have noticed.
True. But what about El Santo? His influence on the business shouldn't come into play. So without it you've just got a generic Luchadore to most fans. At least Aries has a tattoo, backne and a little mustache to separate him from the pack.
Is this like one of your Vader facts? ''He looks like a fat Hawk'', ''He's partial to chocolate''.
So what if he's got a statue. It's probably made out of aluminium.
He beats Aries. But he get's thrashed by Austin. The only person I can forsee beating Austin is Skinner, and I've already made that point.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
You know me - I find research fun. But the research has to have a point, and in this case, the point is the tournament, and in turn that is fun. For me. I am an academic geek. El Santo FTW.
You laughed and you know it. And it's not the same as you saying "El Shito." Austin Aries + Austin Starr = Austin Stairies. You see, it's - ah forget it.
Ok, it's "holmes." A brit butchering ebonics - funny when John Cleese does it.
Seen that corkscrew plancha that Hector Garza does? Yeah, he's shit too.
Big Will alt. Bant.
And no "I" in "team?" Tell that to Hogan.
Ah yes, and it's those 182's that make up mine and Tastycles' target market. And of those 15 that voted Aries, 6 of them were RVDGurl, and you know it.
He wrestled Backlund? Cool...
Still better than Aries.
A promotion with 3,000 fans vs a country with millions. Yeah, you're right, it's a wash.
I've actually started to wonder that myself lately...
And Billington to the UK? That's great - but Hogan was an ICON the way nobody else was. Oh, except for Rikidozan, Santo, Inoki, and Canek.
I don't buy into the home-field. And if El Santo was around in the 90's, he probably wouldn't have bastardized himself like Silver King. He wouldn't have gone to the WCW or WWE and lost his identity. Santo was a man who removed his mask ONE TIME in his life - a week before he died, and only for a second. Talk about dedication.
Generic Lucha > tattoos and backne.
My head hurts.
Still heavier than the one Aries has.
No, I utilized my endless knowledge of Wrestlemania 8 to refute that. You haven't got a leg to stand on.
I laughed at you, not with you.
Ebonics originated in Liverpool. It's you Americans, with you pointless need to change everything, who added the silent ''L''.
But more popular with Northerners than El Santo is. Hector Garza FTW.
Tell that to Brutus Beefcake and all the guys Hogan has helped over the years. Vote Beefcake.
RVDgurl is more influential than your or Testes ever will be.
Yeah he did. And unlike his matches with Bret Hart, these ones weren't boring.
You're overestimating the Mexican market, and underestimating the popularity of ROH.
ROH wrestlers tour in Japan, the one country that has Mexico beat on wrestling popularity. Certainly when El Santo was still alive.
It's all very intresting. But it's more likely people will associate Kenta Kobashi with Japanese wrestling & La Parka with Mexican. Or one of the WWE Mexicans.
He wouldn't have gone to a promotion that would have paid him triple what he was making at home?
You've bought into the lies. He took his mask off every time he was in the shower.
Tell that to the Batista fans.
He's not dead yet. You'll see. In 2067 you'll be calling me.
Indeed.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
I think El Santo is more versatile than Aries and Santo is one of the most decorated wrestlers in Mexican history. Aries can hold his own though and I think in the ECW environment they would be almost even but I am going to go with Santo.
I can't say I'm a fan of either man myself. I'm sorry, but much like the AWA, I have almost no interest in Lucha style wrestling, outside of the two filler matches a week I got on Nitro. That being said, I respect El Santo. I respect him enough to vote him past another Vanilla Midget like Austin Aries whose mouth and ego are disproportionally larger then his physical stature. You have a case of another small guy that bitches about not getting pushed, and then walks out on the company that made him a "Starr", yup, good way to get over buddy.
El Santo gets my vote, but He gets crushed by Austin in the next round, no matter what people will try and say.
El Santo gets my vote, but He gets crushed by Austin in the next round, no matter what people will try and say.
Ok, fair comment, but in the last year I've probably seen as many Kozlov matches where he dominates as I have Warrior matches, and so, while less facetious the point still stands.
I said I didn't watch Ring of Honor shows. I also said that I had watched Aries matches in order to make a comparison in this match. I also saw him in TNA a bit. All of this has led me to believe that, shockingly, Austin Aries isn't as good as El Santo.
True, but people only had a huge impact if they were actually good. McMahon didn't influence anything in ring, thus he won't go far. Hogan did, and should because in a kayfabe tournament, he would go far.
Fair enough, but there will be a lot of people voting in this match that have never heard of either. It's ultimately water under the bridge, because short of some disaster affecting everyone's computer but mine, even if Santo wins, he'll be obliterated next round by people voting for who they have heard more about.
I'd agree, but Santo was less of a high flyer than Rey Mysterio, or probabyeven Jeff Hardy. He'd probably fit into the roster actually.
Exactly, so not being facially recognisable doesn't matter.
If only there were more like you.
Ahh, but its importance by association. X-divison and gerenal cruiserweight wrestling is derivative of Lucha Libre, which owes its succes and popularity almost entirely to Santo and Blue Demon.
Yeah, it doesn't matter what I say really. He'd probably use either the somersault headbutt or the camel clutch, he tended to win matches with his finishers.
But what I meant was that Aries is probably the only person Santo will ever face that is slightly smaller than him. So there's not even the strength/power argument to use against Santo. Santo is bigger, stronger, faster and better.
I know very little about both of these guys. I've seen maybe a highlight of Santo and a match or two from Aries. From what I've heard of Santo is that he was huge in Mexico, and that is a big deal. And Austin Aries is huge, well nowhere. So I won't be voting here, but if I did and had more knowledge of both I'd be voting Santo.
Being honest- I'm throwing in some bias here. Aside from Bryan Danielson, Austin Aries is my favorite wrestler in the business since RVD left. Aries has been a main event talent in ROH for years and still keeps his matches and his gimmick fresh and interesting. As some have mentioned. Aries is not all about high spots. He is much more of a high intensity technical guy who incorporates the occasional high spot.
El Santo may be a legend in Mexico, but many of us are not familiar with wrestling in Mexico and Japan, myself included. I'm familiar with his name and legacy, but not much else- so maybe some ignorance comes into play with this match as well.
Aries gets my vote.
El Santo may be a legend in Mexico, but many of us are not familiar with wrestling in Mexico and Japan, myself included. I'm familiar with his name and legacy, but not much else- so maybe some ignorance comes into play with this match as well.
Aries gets my vote.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I'm going with El Santo. If a wrestler is big enough to have his own movies and said movies become cult classics, then you know he's good to go. El Santo FTW!
- Status