Does anyone think Bret Hart was better than Shawn Michaels, and why?

[Kidpolean]

You're not getting it. Sports are real. Wrestling awards aren't. Just like the WWE hall of fame isn't really a hall of fame. The Power rankings on WWE.com aren't real or legit.

Since you're going all kayfabe on us.....Bret - 5 time WWF champ vs. Shawn - 3 time WWF champ. Bret won the title more, so Bret was better. How's that fit in to your arguments?

Dude...every award is based on a subjective opinion. So your argument is that no award ever should be used in a debate. Grammy, Oscars, MTV awards and bet awards are all voted on by SOMEBODY!!! Their is no difference between a committee of old people, a bunch of nerds on computers, or a bunch of teenagers voting on something because they are all simply fans with an opinion. "Real sports" as you put it, have the media vote on their awards...why are they such a superior group that we should treat their opinions as fact?

Every award EVER is subjective

You guys are seriously arguing nonsense. Bret and Shawn are two of the best ever and who someone thinks is better will come down to preference. You cant and wont change someone's preference.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

You guys are seriously arguing nonsense. Bret and Shawn are two of the best ever and who someone thinks is better will come down to preference. You cant and wont change someone's preference.

Perfectly said.

Especially when it comes to these two in particular, fans are so divided and passionate there's no changing anyone's preference.

I think this thread has also gone around in circles a couple times now. As is common anytime a Bret vs Shawn comparison comes up.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

You're not getting it. Sports are real. Wrestling awards aren't. Just like the WWE hall of fame isn't really a hall of fame. The Power rankings on WWE.com aren't real or legit.

Since you're going all kayfabe on us.....Bret - 5 time WWF champ vs. Shawn - 3 time WWF champ. Bret won the title more, so Bret was better. How's that fit in to your arguments?

College football/ basketball are completely subjective in their rankings, as is the MVP award in Football, Rookie of the year, defensive player of the year. All awards are subjective if you want to look at it that way. Shawn is the better wrestler based on awards.

By the WWE's own rankings of superstars 50 greatest WWE superstars ever voted on by their contemporaries HBK was number one. And since you went Kayfabe which I totally didn't, that's fine and all. If you're willing to admit John Cena is at least three times the wrestler Bret Hart was I'll give your opinion some credence, also you'd have to admit Triple H is by far superior to Bret Hart. Also, that the Miz is at least billion times better than Roddy Piper.

 

[LBGetBack]

College football/ basketball are completely subjective in their rankings, as is the MVP award in Football, Rookie of the year, defensive player of the year. All awards are subjective if you want to look at it that way. Shawn is the better wrestler based on awards.

By the WWE's own rankings of superstars 50 greatest WWE superstars ever voted on by their contemporaries HBK was number one. And since you went Kayfabe which I totally didn't, that's fine and all. If you're willing to admit John Cena is at least three times the wrestler Bret Hart was I'll give your opinion some credence, also you'd have to admit Triple H is by far superior to Bret Hart. Also, that the Miz is at least billion times better than Roddy Piper.

Nah. You're comparing across eras. The belt rarely changed hands in the 80's-mid 90's. It's been passed around like a hot potato for 15+ years now. Not to mention there were 2 belts. LOL.

Even more to Bret's advantage. He won it 5 times when there was only one belt and without even ever competing in the "hot potato era" like Shawn, HHH, Cena, Miz, etc.

That's the equivalent of winning it like 15-20 times these days. LOL.

 

[Wald]

See, I had REAL high hopes for Michaels. When he first went heel and became a singles wrestler, there was so much promise there. He did well, and got built up to IC level and I thought we were in for some greatness. It didn't really happen. The Tatanka feud and IC title match was pretty good, but could've been better. Weird finish(we later found out why.....Shawn being a prick). The Mr. Perfect feud....I was so excited for that, and it really fell flat. Didn't deliver like it should have. Should've been a can't miss. Another bad finish too.

Then he was gone and forfeited the IC title, finally had the type of match we'd been wanting out of him with Razor at WM 10.

The main event push that started in 95 and through 96....was kind've flat too.

All in all, Shawn's 92-98 run was NOT great. Had a few great matches, some great moments, he had all the talent but just didn't quite do it consistently for whatever reason.

Yeah I hear that.

I thought Shawn would have become the perfect heel for Bret (in a way he did with Montreal I guess) but his IC title runs were only really memoorable for the Razor feud and, a personal favourite maybe, the Jeff Jarrett match. Things just didn't click as well as they could have for him to the point that Kevin Nash genuinely surpassed him in 1995.

His face turn and title run after Wrestlemania 12 is honestly the biggest flop ever. Shawn got the Hogan push that the Hitmannever got but he wasn't intelligent enough to make the most of it. Vince takes a lot of the blame for this but Shawn should as well. Having him beat the number one babyface in the company at a time when people weren't at all sick of Bret was a mistake. Right from the start you have half your audience (at least, I'd say a lot more than that if I'm honest) disappointed that you're champion.

From there you put him up against a cool heel and have him fight such a cartoony match. Go back and watch it with Diesel kicking Shawn all over the place only for Shawn to make an unrealistic comeback at the end. A large section of the crowd even booed him this early in his reign and it set the tone for the whole thing. Rinse and repeat that feud with Vader and Sid with Shawn unrealistically coming back to somehow win. If anything I think fans rejected HBK as champion because his matches took them right back to the cartoony Hulkamania Hulking Up nonsense Bret's style thankfully dragged the federation out of.

But that year shows why Bret was better than Shawn. Shawn was probably the more naturally talented but Bret had a far superior wrestling mind and was able to manipulate the audience during feuds and matches better. Shawn just could not play with people's emotions and had no Plan B when things didn't go the way he wanted them

 

[Kidpolean]

Yeah I hear that.

I thought Shawn would have become the perfect heel for Bret (in a way he did with Montreal I guess) but his IC title runs were only really memoorable for the Razor feud and, a personal favourite maybe, the Jeff Jarrett match. Things just didn't click as well as they could have for him to the point that Kevin Nash genuinely surpassed him in 1995.

His face turn and title run after Wrestlemania 12 is honestly the biggest flop ever. Shawn got the Hogan push that the Hitmannever got but he wasn't intelligent enough to make the most of it. Vince takes a lot of the blame for this but Shawn should as well. Having him beat the number one babyface in the company at a time when people weren't at all sick of Bret was a mistake. Right from the start you have half your audience (at least, I'd say a lot more than that if I'm honest) disappointed that you're champion.

From there you put him up against a cool heel and have him fight such a cartoony match. Go back and watch it with Diesel kicking Shawn all over the place only for Shawn to make an unrealistic comeback at the end. A large section of the crowd even booed him this early in his reign and it set the tone for the whole thing. Rinse and repeat that feud with Vader and Sid with Shawn unrealistically coming back to somehow win. If anything I think fans rejected HBK as champion because his matches took them right back to the cartoony Hulkamania Hulking Up nonsense Bret's style thankfully dragged the federation out of.

But that year shows why Bret was better than Shawn. Shawn was probably the more naturally talented but Bret had a far superior wrestling mind and was able to manipulate the audience during feuds and matches better. Shawn just could not play with people's emotions and had no Plan B when things didn't go the way he wanted them

1995 shows why Bret was better? Even though Bret was in his prime for years at this point and HBK was a newbie to the main event? Even though HBK wrestled for more than a decade after that? That is just plain stupid.

Nobody gave a damn about realism in that era. New generation and AE was about over the top nonsense every night with unrealistic unbelievable characters. Fans rejected HBK? Is that why he consistently got good pops?

Dude don't make up bs. You like Bret better...cool. But why even post here if your entire post is bs?

 

[LBGetBack]

1995 shows why Bret was better? Even though Bret was in his prime for years at this point and HBK was a newbie to the main event? Even though HBK wrestled for more than a decade after that? That is just plain stupid.

Nobody gave a damn about realism in that era. New generation and AE was about over the top nonsense every night with unrealistic unbelievable characters. Fans rejected HBK? Is that why he consistently got good pops?

Dude don't make up bs. You like Bret better...cool. But why even post here if your entire post is bs?

Guess you don't remember much of the crowd going nuts when Sid beat him for the title?

Shawn certainly got good pops at times, but on the whole, given his ability and the strength of his push, he wasn't as popular as you would've hoped. He certainly wasn't the immensely popular face champions that Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, and Ultimate Warrior(the previous long term face champions) were.

 

[Kidpolean]

Guess you don't remember much of the crowd going nuts when Sid beat him for the title?

Shawn certainly got good pops at times, but on the whole, given his ability and the strength of his push, he wasn't as popular as you would've hoped. He certainly wasn't the immensely popular face champions that Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, and Ultimate Warrior(the previous long term face champions) were.

Damn that name drop was so forced...Hart shouldn't be mentioned with those other guys. They all got much better pops than Bret and were more popular. Bret had plenty of non reactions from the crowd don't pretend that he was Austin or the rock. Putting his name in there with Macho, Warrior, and Hogan is a complete joke.

 

[LBGetBack]

Damn that name drop was so forced...Hart shouldn't be mentioned with those other guys. They all got much better pops than Bret and were more popular. Bret had plenty of non reactions from the crowd don't pretend that he was Austin or the rock. Putting his name in there with Macho, Warrior, and Hogan is a complete joke.

Weren't you the guy born in 1990?

You're wrong. Bret's pops were huge back then. Don't know why you're even bothering with this current path(Bret wasn't that over, Shawn aways got great reactions as champ).....with the WWE Network, it's real easy to prove. I suggest you go back and watch more, so you can stop being wrong so often.

 

[Kidpolean]

Weren't you the guy born in 1990?

You're wrong. Bret's pops were huge back then. Don't know why you're even bothering with this current path(Bret wasn't that over, Shawn aways got great reactions as champ).....with the WWE Network, it's real easy to prove. I suggest you go back and watch more, so you can stop being wrong so often.

Um no...wth does age have to do with this anyways?

Who said Bret wasn't over? Dont put words in my mouth. Bret was not EVER even close to the popularity of the guys you just named. Only people comparable to Hogan is Austin, Rock, and a few very old wrestlers that aren't even worth mentioning.

HBK and Bret have faced each other several times and the crowd was always split. Bret is comparable to HBK in that category. Their reactions were generally similar which, as you put it, can be proven with WWE network. Wrestling in general wasn't popular enough at the time for Bret to be up there with Hogan and Macho. Warrior is even on a different level. You are severely overrating Bret. I doubt that you even believe some of the things you are saying.

 

[LBGetBack]

Good night child!!

So you don't have the decency/integrity to finish a discussion, and feel the need to throw an insult? Classy.

I stand by all my points.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Nah. You're comparing across eras. The belt rarely changed hands in the 80's-mid 90's. It's been passed around like a hot potato for 15+ years now. Not to mention there were 2 belts. LOL.

Even more to Bret's advantage. He won it 5 times when there was only one belt and without even ever competing in the "hot potato era" like Shawn, HHH, Cena, Miz, etc.

That's the equivalent of winning it like 15-20 times these days. LOL.

Really, hot potatoes huh? Well if that's the case that just shows HOW much better Cena was than bret. BUT WHY?

174, 248, 133, 1, and 98. What was those? The amounts of days bret hart held the WWE title.

During an Era where the belt wasn't passed around as much brets five title reigns don't equal Cena's first three. BUT BUT BUT THERE'S two world championships! True, I agree but then again the WWE has far more wrestlers and talent on the roster, far more credible wrestlers on the roster than say in 1995. In 1995 their might be five guys who had been world champion or had the ability to be. So maybe Cena was 20 or 30 times better than bret

And You're also not taking into account the fact Bret had a day run as champion, Yoko, had less than that, bob backlund had it for maybe a week, Sid and Shawn both had like a month reign.Hogan might have held it for two months, a little longer? Not sure but it wasn't long... So let's act like the belt wasn't tossed around back then rather quickly. Including a six day reign for Undertaker and a one day reign for hogan. Add all that up, and the belt wasn't exactly 1981 WWF championship material either.

 

[Scrotie McBoogerballs]

I think many people are better than Shawm Michaels, but Bret Hart is not one of them.

 

[hitking100]

Bret Hart hands down. Shawn was more flamboyant, better on the mic and all that, but he just couldn't tell a story in the ring like Bret did.

I remember having such high hopes for HBK Vs Mr. Perfect at Summerslam...they didn't deliver, while Perfect Vs Hart were all classics.

Hart always tried to make his opponent look good, HBK on the other hand was only in it for himself, even deliberately screwing up his buddies finisher at WM11.

Had HBK not resorted to being the Cocaine Cowboy during that time and devoted himself like Bret did, there might have been a chance he would have come out as being undisputedly better than Bret...his way of life decided otherwise.

As far as face championship reigns are concerned, i never heard Bret being booed. HBK however never was as popular as a face, i remember him being heavily booed (not Cena like booes naturally) during his Sid feud and after that.

In closing, both Hart and HBK will go down for me as two of the greatest of all time, but i'll only fondly remember HBK for his second reign as the showstopper, a reign where i think he certainly was better than all the rest.

 

[Starkiller]

You could put a broom in the ring with bret hart and the broom would look good. You put a broom in the ring with hbk and you wouldn't notice the broom at all.

 

[Wald]

1995 shows why Bret was better? Even though Bret was in his prime for years at this point and HBK was a newbie to the main event? Even though HBK wrestled for more than a decade after that? That is just plain stupid.

Nobody gave a damn about realism in that era. New generation and AE was about over the top nonsense every night with unrealistic unbelievable characters. Fans rejected HBK? Is that why he consistently got good pops?

Dude don't make up bs. You like Bret better...cool. But why even post here if your entire post is bs?

Yes the fans rejected HBK, isn't that obvious? He was supposed to be the new golden boy of the WWF but instead was booed by sections of the crowd against Diesel and was outright ran out of New York at Survivor Series 96. He flopped so much as a face champion that less than a year later he was already an afterthought and was looking to switch back to a heel.

That's called being rejected by the fanbase.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Well people can talk about 1995 and 1996 all they want. But it's clear if you include Shawn's second run in the WWE. He had better matches and was just better overall. It's not even that close. Shawn was everything he said. Bret being "the best there is was and ever will be" was a joke. Since he never lived up to Flair, Hogan, Misawa, Austin, Rock, or Cena. Bret was a fine champion. Great even, but greatest? LOL he's not top ten. Not top 20, and while many regard Shawn as the best overall talent ever. I've never heard anyone in the business say that Bret was some kind of charismatic wonder that people in this thread

 

[kriswd40]

HBK did so much more to progress wrestling forward while Brett got left behind. When they were both in WWF, Hitman was the better of the two, but he was also the older of the two. HBK's biggest moments came after Hitman was gone. When you look at who did more for professional wrestling, its HBK and its not even close. Brett just couldn't fit in once the industry evolved while HBK helped to push it to heights it may never reach again.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

HBK did so much more to progress wrestling forward while Brett got left behind. When they were both in WWF, Hitman was the better of the two, but he was also the older of the two. HBK's biggest moments came after Hitman was gone. When you look at who did more for professional wrestling, its HBK and its not even close. Brett just couldn't fit in once the industry evolved while HBK helped to push it to heights it may never reach again.

That's another thing, Technical wrestling in Bret's era was already widely accepted because of guys like Flair, Ted TiBiase, and Bob Backlund. Shawn changed the landscape. He opened doors for the Jericho's, Hardy's, Guerrero's, and tons of other high fliers who could finally make it to the top.Even going back to the times of Lou Thesz.

I think so of the "rejection" of Shawn Michaels was the fact he was changing the business. For the better, in and out of the ring. Shawn came off the top ropes and his come backs where different. By the time Shawn came back, people realized that sacrificing yourself was logical if it's the only to take the big man out.

Which is why many thing he was so much better in his second run. Not because Shawn was suddenly more amazing, but because he helped the business evolve into something it had never been before.

Shawn was clearly ahead of his time, while bret was stuck in 1960, and never really advanced much in the business. Shawn opened doors that Bret himself couldn't.

 

[Bockwinkel's Class]

That's another thing, Technical wrestling in Bret's era was already widely accepted because of guys like Flair, Ted TiBiase, and Bob Backlund. Shawn changed the landscape. He opened doors for the Jericho's, Hardy's, Guerrero's, and tons of other high fliers who could finally make it to the top.Even going back to the times of Lou Thesz.

I think so of the "rejection" of Shawn Michaels was the fact he was changing the business. For the better, in and out of the ring. Shawn came off the top ropes and his come backs where different. By the time Shawn came back, people realized that sacrificing yourself was logical if it's the only to take the big man out.

Which is why many thing he was so much better in his second run. Not because Shawn was suddenly more amazing, but because he helped the business evolve into something it had never been before.

Shawn was clearly ahead of his time, while bret was stuck in 1960, and never really advanced much in the business. Shawn opened doors that Bret himself couldn't.

If you want to credit the proliferation of mindless spot monkeys to Michaels then that's a strike against him rather than anything to be proud of.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

If you want to credit the proliferation of mindless spot monkeys to Michaels then that's a strike against him rather than anything to be proud of.

If you think Jericho and Guerrero are just spot monkeys, more power to you. I don't see it that way.

 

[Wald]

If you want to give HBK the credit for Jericho (not a high flyer by the way), Guerrero and Mysterio than surely you'd have to give Bret the credit for Benoit and Angle? I'm not saying you should but by your logic if you're the first champion of that sort (which Bret was in the WWF) than you're the one who opened the doors for all the rest.

As far as high flying champions go you seem to have also forgotten that Macho Man Randy Savage existed.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

If you want to give HBK the credit for Jericho (not a high flyer by the way), Guerrero and Mysterio than surely you'd have to give Bret the credit for Benoit and Angle? I'm not saying you should but by your logic if you're the first champion of that sort (which Bret was in the WWF) than you're the one who opened the doors for all the rest.

As far as high flying champions go you seem to have also forgotten that Macho Man Randy Savage existed.

Jericho has said on many times his style was based on HBK's. I'm not giving Bret credit for Angle at all since Angle and Bret are complete different, just like I wouldn't give HBK credit for mysterio.

I would however say you are right on the Benoit point, as far as wrestling style go I think Benoit was bret 2.0. I actually think Benoit was better BUT that's clearly debatable.But do I think Bret changed the business in this way no. Bret wasn't the first technical wrestling champion in WWE history, as you had Bob Backlund, Ric Flair, and the first champion Buddy Rogers was quite the technical wrestler. and if you include NWA (which I do, you don't have to. I could see you adding it, I could also see why you wouldn't here). You had tons of great technical wrestler, the same with AWA. If you count NWA you have Flair, Thesz, Brisco, Garvin (who's technical ability is flat out disrespected), Steamboat. Add AWA you have Pat O' Conner, Verne Gange, and Nick Bockwinkel, and Curt Henning who during his AWA run was elite.

And yes you do have a point with Savage in many ways, but with the business being so much different back then I don't think Savage and Steamboat made the GIANT leap (figurative) that HBK made.

I never said Bret didn't make a difference. I just said he was more a throwback than an advancer. I don't think that's really a huge insult. I respect that fact about bret. He was rooted in the business. Nothing against that, but I think HBK advanced the business more.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

That's wrong because Bret WAS an "advancer" as you call it.

Bret was a technical guy who could be colourful, had an image that played well and showed that someone could work their way up the ranks from a smaller pushed jobber, to a tag team, to the IC to the top... Prior to that, champions were brought in for that purpose... no WWF champ built himself the way Bret did and arguably only Flair did with the NWA, everyone else was groomed until Bret.

Without his look with the shades/pink, the nickname, even down to the cocky hand gestures out to the side... he goes nowhere even with all his technical abilities. He was able to put a package together that got noticed, got over and got him in front of the right opponents to show a "small guy" could do it... Bret never wins the belt...Shawn never moves out of the tag ranks much less the IC picture.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

That's wrong because Bret WAS an "advancer" as you call it.

Bret was a technical guy who could be colourful, had an image that played well and showed that someone could work their way up the ranks from a smaller pushed jobber, to a tag team, to the IC to the top... Prior to that, champions were brought in for that purpose... no WWF champ built himself the way Bret did and arguably only Flair did with the NWA, everyone else was groomed until Bret.

Without his look with the shades/pink, the nickname, even down to the cocky hand gestures out to the side... he goes nowhere even with all his technical abilities. He was able to put a package together that got noticed, got over and got him in front of the right opponents to show a "small guy" could do it... Bret never wins the belt...Shawn never moves out of the tag ranks much less the IC picture.

First off, I'm not going to disagree with a bunch of this since Bret did everything you mentioned, but I will say this much. I don't think bret's success had anything to do with Shawn's. HBK broke away from the Rockers in 1991, The same year bret broke away from the Hart Foundation.

Shawn was destined for big things from that moment on IMO. He faced Randy Savage for the world title and was in the IC picture after that. Bret got his push faster, but also Bret was there longer.

Shawn probably would've had much bigger success earlier if it wasn't for the fact that Shawn was a druggy and an ass he would've been bigger sooner imo. Bret and Shawn were making the same run imo, until the steroid bs happened. And No I'm not one of those people who think that Bret only got the belt because of that.

Bret was destined for success, as was Shawn at that time. Bret beat Shawn to most destination because he had a head start and the fact that Shawn was a druggy dick.

The one thing I will say is that Vince had a hard on for Shawn. It's been said by many sources, Vince Russo, Triple H, and Jim Cornette to name a few. That no one has ever treated Vince the way Shawn did and get away with it. HBK always had that in his favor, and I think that would've propelled him to the top, just like Bret's pure talent as a wrestler would've propelled him to the top.

Bret wasn't the first guy to break the mold and go from the tag division it's just the business was changing from the regional scene to the big time national scene. Sid, Windham, Flair, all came from tag teams to become stars. Now WWE didn't really do that, even though Taker started as a tag wrestler. To me Bret was the first but his success didn't lead to Shawn's. Now again that's debatable, but I think saying without a bret hart there'd be no Shawn michaels is a bit speculative at best. Since Vince was in Shawn's back pocket, and it was pretty clear.

As far as being IC champion and transitioning that into success as world champion. Not a big deal. You forgot about Savage there, and Warrior. So I don't know. Do you have a point but even if Bret doesn't exist, I think Shawn goes down the same road here.