Does anyone think Bret Hart was better than Shawn Michaels, and why?

[Bythedockofthebay]

The Wrestling Observer also thinks Dean Malenko is a better wrestler than Bret Hart. So stop your appeals to authority. PWI picked The Giant, Vader, Diesel and Hogan as Wrestler of the Year over both Shawn and Bret from 93-96. Shows how much credibility they have.

Umm no they didn't. You're confusing PWI top 501 with PWI wrestler of the year.

But if you really want to get into their "fake" awards, don't act like Bret didn't win anything. He was more than adequate in his share of fake industry awards:

Sure he was, but here's my thing, HBK had more awards for MOTY 15 than bret did overall awards that you've listed 12, and somehow bret gets credit for Major show of the year since I guess he booked it and promoted it?

Does it mean anything that a magazine gave away some awards? No. Does it prove anything at all? Stop appealing to a false authority.

Wait lol no you want me ignore people who get paid for a living to give their opinions on wrestling, sorry I can't do that. And as far as bret being a better "wrestler" people who are paid to study wrestling, paid to give their opinions, who study it, and have more knowledge than us about it, clearly think HBK is better. Basically if I'm asking someone's opinion on the stars, I'll ask an Astrologist, who studied it, understands it, and can put it into perspective as opposed to the homeless guy who also sees the stars every night.

I never said Shawn wasn't good, I simply said it took him until 2002 before he truly became great. Bret was better in the 90s. Bret's classics vs Demolition, Nasty Boys, Mr Perfect, Roddy Piper, British Bulldog, Owen Hart, 123 Kid, Jerry Lawler, Kevin Nash, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, etc far outweigh what Shawn did pre-2002.

Yawn, well you can think that but what was said is that it's been established that Bret is the "better wrestler" which he wasn't.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Using PWI of the time or the Apter mags to measure ANYTHING is like saying Owen was better cos he won more Slammy awards... utterly meaningless.

I read those mags back then and they were nearly 100% kayfabed, even down to the "rankings" they published each month. The matches of the year, 500 and awards were very much subjective and the only time PWI ever really went in depth in a serious analytical way was the annual "computer" tournament. Where they basically used the old TNM programme (anyone remember that?) to sim matches and wrote the analysis based on the result or the odd "puff piece" with a bit of depth. I remember a great article about Rick Steamboat's dropkick being the best of all time... that was quite analytical and to someone learning to wrestle at the time informative... but those were few and far between.

Like WWE magazine, only one or two people wrote those mags.. there was no "pool of journalists" just one or two people who used a lot of aliases... Matt Brock, Liz Hunter... all the same person. Powerslam in the UK was similar, but actually used it's readers and had more of the approach that the web pioneered, using it's readers with talent to write on the mag/site. Once the Net hit the biz proper, the magazines became more "smart"

As to Bret and Shawn, either being higher on that 500 is immaterial, as it wasn't a voted for thing, it was subjective and at worst ultra "trendy", they'd put #1 as being someone "cool" or from Japan rather than the true leaders of the time of which Bret and Shawn were two... but Bret was a leader LONG before Shawn arguably only became that leader in full in 2002, after several years away and a literal reboot of his life. In the 1980's and 90's when both were in competition, Bret was a country mile ahead and remained so until the end of his career... even in WCW with matches like the one with Benoit and the Goldberg spear angle... he could still tell a story better than Shawn could...

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Wait lol no you want me ignore people who get paid for a living to give their opinions on wrestling, sorry I can't do that. And as far as bret being a better "wrestler" people who are paid to study wrestling, paid to give their opinions, who study it, and have more knowledge than us about it, clearly think HBK is better. Basically if I'm asking someone's opinion on the stars, I'll ask an Astrologist, who studied it, understands it, and can put it into perspective as opposed to the homeless guy who also sees the stars every night.

I tend toward Shawn being the better of the two (by a hair), but you can't point to a wrestling mag as some kind of scientific journal on who's the best performer. It's all entirely subjective opinion on an entertainment form.

 

[FarFromFine]

Umm....Bret didn't lose to Austin. Pretty much seals the deal that you're lost here.

And no, the fans hadn't wanted to "boo Bret for years". You clearly didn't watch wrestling at the time.

They started booing him when he was "whining" all the time over getting screwed. His character was morphing into a bitter whiner who became more and more vicious and underhanded at the same time. It was a slow burn heel turn that went all the way at the exact right moment.....immediately after an insanely good WM match that had the fans emotions flying high, with the finish giving Austin that heroic sympathy from the crowd. All the while, Austin's act was hard not to cheer for. It was the perfect storm. You underrate/have no clue about Bret's role here.

Your Montreal comments are just more uninformed BS. Bret had more time on his contract and was willing to drop the title in basically any other way. This was his contractual right. The "take the title to WCW" is just some paranoid hyperbole BS that has no basis whatsoever. There's absolutely nothing that suggests Bret was trying to do that. He just didn't want to damage his own character......again, his contractual right to be able to protect his character. Shawn made that bed for himself by basically NEVER actually dropping the title. He'd get hurt or suspended and forfeit it, because he didn't want to lose to anyone.

Oops, yeah i forgot that Bret actually did win the match. Should have remembered since Bret put over about as many people as Hogan back then.

I don't see how you can deny that Bret had gotten stale prior to his heel turn, thus making it so effective. It's basic booking. Give the fans what they want, and they wanted to boo Bret. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. A lot of people want to boo Cena right now, doesn't mean he isn't great.

As for the screwjob, I only have the facts available to everyone else. I don't have any insider knowledge to say that he WAS going to go to WCW with the title, I was merely pointing out that if they'd caved in to Bret and let him keep it after knowing he was jumping ship that he COULD have done so. It had already happened with the womens title and if WCW had offered Bret too much money to pass up to do it, it would have been a death blow to WWF. Do you have any inside info that we haven't heard about giving 100% certainty that it was impossible for that to happen? If so please link to it as I would love to read all about it!

Oh and when Bret refuses to do his job he's "protecting his character" but when HBK refused to job he gets crucified for it? Quite the double standard there.

Side note: why are people getting so heated over this? It's fake wrestling from almost 20 years ago. It's fun to have a lively debate about which of these two top 25 ever (had to take a jab there) was better but it's hardly worth getting worked up about.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

I tend toward Shawn being the better of the two (by a hair), but you can't point to a wrestling mag as some kind of scientific journal on who's the best performer. It's all entirely subjective opinion on an entertainment form.

which is kind of like saying the oscars or Grammy awards don't matter, which is completely wrong. Because entertainment is subjective. I guess Annie Hall could be on the same level as Batman and Robin.

Or that Friday by Rebecca Black is on the level as Beethoven's 5th symphony, or that the tv show Joey was on the same level of accomplishment as Friends.

 

[LBGetBack]

Oops, yeah i forgot that Bret actually did win the match. Should have remembered since Bret put over about as many people as Hogan back then.

I don't see how you can deny that Bret had gotten stale prior to his heel turn, thus making it so effective. It's basic booking. Give the fans what they want, and they wanted to boo Bret. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. A lot of people want to boo Cena right now, doesn't mean he isn't great.

As for the screwjob, I only have the facts available to everyone else. I don't have any insider knowledge to say that he WAS going to go to WCW with the title, I was merely pointing out that if they'd caved in to Bret and let him keep it after knowing he was jumping ship that he COULD have done so. It had already happened with the womens title and if WCW had offered Bret too much money to pass up to do it, it would have been a death blow to WWF. Do you have any inside info that we haven't heard about giving 100% certainty that it was impossible for that to happen? If so please link to it as I would love to read all about it!

Oh and when Bret refuses to do his job he's "protecting his character" but when HBK refused to job he gets crucified for it? Quite the double standard there.

Side note: why are people getting so heated over this? It's fake wrestling from almost 20 years ago. It's fun to have a lively debate about which of these two top 25 ever (had to take a jab there) was better but it's hardly worth getting worked up about.

Now Bret didn't put people over? LOLOLOLOL. Some of y'all will just say ANYTHING to avoid admitting you're wrong, huh? Bret never once forfeited a title in WWF, I know that much. He put Shawn over cleanly for his first title win at Mania too. Were you actually serious?

Bret had more time on his contract. Survivor Series was not going to be his last night in WWF, until the screwjob happened. It was not a "get the title off him NOW, or he's going to WCW with it!" He was going to be on Raw the next night. Fact.

Bret's CONTRACT had creative control clauses for his final days in the company. Read up on it.

Did Shawn have contract clauses saying he could always forfeit the title instead of actually losing it? LOLOLOL. I'm amazed you even made that comment and saw no problem with it.

Not heated. More like annoyed that people speak definitively on things, while not even being aware of some of the basics.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Now Bret didn't put people over? LOLOLOLOL. Some of y'all will just say ANYTHING to avoid admitting you're wrong, huh?

Bret had more time on his contract. Survivor Series was not going to be his last night in WWF, until the screwjob happened. It was not a "get the title off him NOW, or he's going to WCW with it!" He was going to be on Raw the next night. Fact.

Bret's CONTRACT had creative control clauses for his final days in the company. Read up on it.

Did Shawn have contract clauses saying he could always forfeit the title instead of actually losing it? LOLOLOL. I'm amazed you even made that comment and saw no problem with it.

Not heated. More like annoyed that people speak definitively on things, while not even being aware of some of the basics.

Actually, the big deal with Bret jobbing was the next night on nitro WCW could've come out publicly and said that they signed the WWF champion. Vince and Vince Russo trusted Bret not to say a word. They didn't trust WCW though. They didn't want WCW to have that edge on them which they would've if they decided to. Fact is bret should've done what a million guys like Flair, Yoko, and Nash did for him. But he wouldn't, he just couldn't do the job and I don't feel bad about the call at all. Bret should've tapped in the match and that's how I see it. Bret submitted to Shawn via sharpshooter because that's what the promoter booked.

 

[Wald]

Actually, the big deal with Bret jobbing was the next night on nitro WCW could've come out publicly and said that they signed the WWF champion. Vince and Vince Russo trusted Bret not to say a word. They didn't trust WCW though. They didn't want WCW to have that edge on them which they would've if they decided to. Fact is bret should've done what a million guys like Flair, Yoko, and Nash did for him. But he wouldn't, he just couldn't do the job and I don't feel bad about the call at all. Bret should've tapped in the match and that's how I see it. Bret submitted to Shawn via sharpshooter because that's what the promoter booked.

Yes except WCW were already in a lawsuit with WWF over trademark infringement due to the Madusa angle and there was no way in hell that Bischoff was ever going to be able to even mention Bret being the WWF world champion. Bischoff has said that himself in various documentaries.

Montreal was a power play by Vince to regain control of a locker room that he had partially lost control of. Bret was a symbol of that due to the contract and control of his character he'd managed to get by 1997. Shawn was just a patsy who was unprofessional enough to be in on it.

 

[LBGetBack]

Actually, the big deal with Bret jobbing was the next night on nitro WCW could've come out publicly and said that they signed the WWF champion. Vince and Vince Russo trusted Bret not to say a word. They didn't trust WCW though. They didn't want WCW to have that edge on them which they would've if they decided to. Fact is bret should've done what a million guys like Flair, Yoko, and Nash did for him. But he wouldn't, he just couldn't do the job and I don't feel bad about the call at all. Bret should've tapped in the match and that's how I see it. Bret submitted to Shawn via sharpshooter because that's what the promoter booked.

Bret should've tapped? Yeah, because Shawn made people tap all the time, right? Losing to your own finisher happens all the time, huh?

It was an unnecessary asshole move, and a breach of contract. Not like Shawn needed to be the guy to get the title anyway. He was a drug-riddled mess who rarely wrestled at the time, and would be gone from the company 5 months later.

They could've easily went with anyone else who would've made a strong contender....Undertaker, Foley, Austin, etc.

 

[FarFromFine]

Now Bret didn't put people over? LOLOLOLOL. Some of y'all will just say ANYTHING to avoid admitting you're wrong, huh? Bret never once forfeited a title in WWF, I know that much. He put Shawn over cleanly for his first title win at Mania too. Were you actually serious?

Bret had more time on his contract. Survivor Series was not going to be his last night in WWF, until the screwjob happened. It was not a "get the title off him NOW, or he's going to WCW with it!" He was going to be on Raw the next night. Fact.

Bret's CONTRACT had creative control clauses for his final days in the company. Read up on it.

Did Shawn have contract clauses saying he could always forfeit the title instead of actually losing it? LOLOLOL. I'm amazed you even made that comment and saw no problem with it.

Not heated. More like annoyed that people speak definitively on things, while not even being aware of some of the basics.

Well, I had to check to make sure my memory was correct, but, yeah, Bret didn't really put over anyone other than Shawn. He had the loss to Bob Backlund but that was when Owen got his mom, I believe it was his mom but I'm sure you'll correct me if that's wrong, to throw in the towel. He let Owen beat him clean but that's his brother so maybe we can take that one with a grain of salt. Actually, other than Shawn, Bret didn't help make anyone else's career by losing clean to them until 1997 when Bret lost 5 matches clean, 3 of them to Psycho Sid.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/bret-hart-52.html

Looking through the 1992-1997 years it seems like Bret's only real kryptonite was guys that were related to him.

I like to provide evidence to support my "ridiculous" comments.

And bythedock nailed what I was getting at about the screwjob. Be a man and drop the title, just like Shawn should have done when he was supposed to.

 

[Starkiller]

Bret stood up for what he believed in. He actually didnt even have to show up at that ppv as he already fulfilled his contract. He worked the x amount of shows he was contracted for up to that point. He could of kept the belt and took it to wcw if he really wanted to anyway. And when he restructured his contract he had creative control over his character to protect his stalk. They had a deal on how he was gonna drop the title, and they went back on it and screwed him, Vince and kliq all knew about it. We all know this, it's fact.

So butt hurt hbk can Vacant the title because he was "hurt" instead of putting the next guy over but Bret couldn't do the same the next night on raw? That doesn't make sense at all.

Over a decade later tho, most people side with Bret, and Mind you the wwe has been great to Bret now, the bret vs hbk rival dvd where they have a sit down interview, Bret basically says the exact same story he has always told with hbk sitting right beside him basically agreeing with Bret lol.

So not only is Bret a better wrestler then hbk he is also a more honest person then hbk.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Bret should've tapped? Yeah, because Shawn made people tap all the time, right? Losing to your own finisher happens all the time, huh?

It was an unnecessary asshole move, and a breach of contract. Not like Shawn needed to be the guy to get the title anyway. He was a drug-riddled mess who rarely wrestled at the time, and would be gone from the company 5 months later.

They could've easily went with anyone else who would've made a strong contender....Undertaker, Foley, Austin, etc.

Eh I've always kind of thought it was a work, and my point was Bret should've job and that's all. Shawn Jobbed when he left the company, Flair did, alot of guys did the job on the way out as should've bret. Honestly, I think Bret agreed to the screwjob, if not Vince should've put him in with Shamrock, had Shamrock make him job then had Shawn come out and beat Shamrock because Shawn was clearly the direction they wanted to go at that time.

 

[Wald]

Well, I had to check to make sure my memory was correct, but, yeah, Bret didn't really put over anyone other than Shawn. He had the loss to Bob Backlund but that was when Owen got his mom, I believe it was his mom but I'm sure you'll correct me if that's wrong, to throw in the towel. He let Owen beat him clean but that's his brother so maybe we can take that one with a grain of salt. Actually, other than Shawn, Bret didn't help make anyone else's career by losing clean to them until 1997 when Bret lost 5 matches clean, 3 of them to Psycho Sid.

Shock as the top babyface in the company rarely loses clean in an era where top babyfaces rarely lost at all.

You're also falling in to the trap of thinking that a clean loss is the only way of putting a guy over.

 

[The Brain]

Well, I had to check to make sure my memory was correct, but, yeah, Bret didn't really put over anyone other than Shawn. He had the loss to Bob Backlund but that was when Owen got his mom, I believe it was his mom but I'm sure you'll correct me if that's wrong, to throw in the towel. He let Owen beat him clean but that's his brother so maybe we can take that one with a grain of salt. Actually, other than Shawn, Bret didn't help make anyone else's career by losing clean to them until 1997 when Bret lost 5 matches clean, 3 of them to Psycho Sid.

Shock as the top babyface in the company rarely loses clean in an era where top babyfaces rarely lost at all.

You're also falling in to the trap of thinking that a clean loss is the only way of putting a guy over.

You're right. There are other ways to put someone over besides a clean loss. Besides his relatives, who he worked with a lot during that time, Bret put over plenty of guys. He put over The 123 Kid and Diesel pretty big. Obviously he put Austin over huge. He even put over Isaac Yankem the best he could but of course it's not Bret's fault Glen Jacobs was given a dentist gimmick at first. Besides, people that are arguing for Shawn should probably avoid this particular topic.

 

[LBGetBack]

Well, I had to check to make sure my memory was correct, but, yeah, Bret didn't really put over anyone other than Shawn. He had the loss to Bob Backlund but that was when Owen got his mom, I believe it was his mom but I'm sure you'll correct me if that's wrong, to throw in the towel. He let Owen beat him clean but that's his brother so maybe we can take that one with a grain of salt. Actually, other than Shawn, Bret didn't help make anyone else's career by losing clean to them until 1997 when Bret lost 5 matches clean, 3 of them to Psycho Sid.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/bret-hart-52.html

Looking through the 1992-1997 years it seems like Bret's only real kryptonite was guys that were related to him.

I like to provide evidence to support my "ridiculous" comments.

And bythedock nailed what I was getting at about the screwjob. Be a man and drop the title, just like Shawn should have done when he was supposed to.

Evidence? You just compared Bret to HOGAN as far as not putting anyone over.....then realize he lost 5 times in 1997 alone.....and somehow you're STILL sticking to it. LOL. Is Bret related to Sid?

Bret lost to The Mountie and the British Bulldog. Never forfeited the IC title. Lost it to someone. Every time.

Bret lost to Yokozuna, Bob Backlund, Sid, and Shawn Michaels....never forfeited the WWF title. Lost it to someone. Every time. In fact lost it cleanly to Shawn. When it was time for it to go the other way, Shawn forfeited the title instead. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

Owen Hart, Jerry Lawler, Vader, Undertaker, HHH all notched wins over him back then too, off the top of my head.

No sh*t, he didn't lose cleanly often when he was the #1 babyface. How often do babyface top guys lose cleanly, ever?

 

[Creepy Old Man]

which is kind of like saying the oscars or Grammy awards don't matter, which is completely wrong. Because entertainment is subjective. I guess Annie Hall could be on the same level as Batman and Robin.

Or that Friday by Rebecca Black is on the level as Beethoven's 5th symphony, or that the tv show Joey was on the same level of accomplishment as Friends.

They don't matter in my opinion. Batman and Robin could very well be a better film than Annie Hall for the guy two doors down from me. The girl across the road may enjoy Rebecca Black far more than Beethoven. Critics, regardless of how well known, are only offering an opinion. The quality of entertainment is absolutely scientifically unprovable. Even in legitimate sports there's no definitive measuring tool to determine the greatest ever.

You seem to be having serious trouble distinguishing between subjective opinion and fact. Even consensus of opinion, still does not equal fact.

 

[FarFromFine]

I feel like I'm getting responded to by 5 gimmick accounts that Hart has created himself. Which wouldn't surprise me as big as the guys ego is.

Starting to remember why I spend more time on /r/squaredcircle than here.

 

[Bockwinkel's Class]

I feel like I'm getting responded to by 5 gimmick accounts that Hart has created himself. Which wouldn't surprise me as big as the guys ego is.

Starting to remember why I spend more time on /r/squaredcircle than here.

No, you just want an amen chorus and you're butthurt because you aren't getting one.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

They don't matter in my opinion. Batman and Robin could very well be a better film than Annie Hall for the guy two doors down from me. The girl across the road may enjoy Rebecca Black far more than Beethoven. Critics, regardless of how well known, are only offering an opinion. The quality of entertainment is absolutely scientifically unprovable. Even in legitimate sports there's no definitive measuring tool to determine the greatest ever.

You seem to be having serious trouble distinguishing between subjective opinion and fact. Even consensus of opinion, still does not equal fact.

Well then I'll place your opinion on this in the same category I would those who would say Manute Bol was a better center than Wilt Chamberlain, or that Don Nelson was a better player than MJ or those that think Ryan Leaf is just as accomplished as a pro quarterback as Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Shawn Michaels is more accomplished as a professional wrestler than Bret Hart. He's accomplished more as far as great match being AWARDED than Bret Hart. That isn't subjective, that's fact. Just like Peyton Manning is more accomplished as a QB than Ryan Leaf as far as awards are concerned.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Shawn Michaels is more accomplished as a professional wrestler than Bret Hart. He's accomplished more as far as great match being AWARDED than Bret Hart. That isn't subjective, that's fact. Just like Peyton Manning is more accomplished as a QB than Ryan Leaf as far as awards are concerned.

The difference is that with Movies, Music, TV Shows, Sports, etc. there is a legitimately recognized Academy or association that decides these awards. Saying that PWI awards are legitimate accolades would be like saying the National Enquirer's "Best Dressed" awards are legitimate accolades.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

The difference is that with Movies, Music, TV Shows, Sports, etc. there is a legitimately recognized Academy or association that decides these awards. Saying that PWI awards are legitimate accolades would be like saying the National Enquirer's "Best Dressed" awards are legitimate accolades.

Wrestlers have been awarded PWI awards on TV, they've been used for angle's in wrestling. It's commonplace for wrestlers to get their pictures taken with those awards. That doesn't sound like National Enquirer stuff to me.

 

[MERPER]

To be honest, there was a point early in his career where I was so unimpressed by HBK in the ring I was convinced he was just a glorified male stripper...

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Well then I'll place your opinion on this in the same category I would those who would say Manute Bol was a better center than Wilt Chamberlain, or that Don Nelson was a better player than MJ or those that think Ryan Leaf is just as accomplished as a pro quarterback as Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Shawn Michaels is more accomplished as a professional wrestler than Bret Hart. He's accomplished more as far as great match being AWARDED than Bret Hart. That isn't subjective, that's fact. Just like Peyton Manning is more accomplished as a QB than Ryan Leaf as far as awards are concerned.

The number of awards someone has won is fact, but those awards are based on the entirely subjective opinions of the voters. PWI could create an international poll tomorrow to determine "The Single Greatest Wrestler in the History of Mankind", appealing to critics and fans worldwide for their votes. If Michaels won, it would be an indisputable fact that he won, but the award would only reflect subjective opinion, even if on a large scale. It might even reflect critical consensus within the wrestling word. But that STILL doesn't make it a "fact" that Shawn Michaels is better.

Getting it yet?

 

[LBGetBack]

To be honest, there was a point early in his career where I was so unimpressed by HBK in the ring I was convinced he was just a glorified male stripper...

See, I had REAL high hopes for Michaels. When he first went heel and became a singles wrestler, there was so much promise there. He did well, and got built up to IC level and I thought we were in for some greatness. It didn't really happen. The Tatanka feud and IC title match was pretty good, but could've been better. Weird finish(we later found out why.....Shawn being a prick). The Mr. Perfect feud....I was so excited for that, and it really fell flat. Didn't deliver like it should have. Should've been a can't miss. Another bad finish too.

Then he was gone and forfeited the IC title, finally had the type of match we'd been wanting out of him with Razor at WM 10.

The main event push that started in 95 and through 96....was kind've flat too.

All in all, Shawn's 92-98 run was NOT great. Had a few great matches, some great moments, he had all the talent but just didn't quite do it consistently for whatever reason.

 

[LBGetBack]

Well then I'll place your opinion on this in the same category I would those who would say Manute Bol was a better center than Wilt Chamberlain, or that Don Nelson was a better player than MJ or those that think Ryan Leaf is just as accomplished as a pro quarterback as Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Shawn Michaels is more accomplished as a professional wrestler than Bret Hart. He's accomplished more as far as great match being AWARDED than Bret Hart. That isn't subjective, that's fact. Just like Peyton Manning is more accomplished as a QB than Ryan Leaf as far as awards are concerned.

You're not getting it. Sports are real. Wrestling awards aren't. Just like the WWE hall of fame isn't really a hall of fame. The Power rankings on WWE.com aren't real or legit.

Since you're going all kayfabe on us.....Bret - 5 time WWF champ vs. Shawn - 3 time WWF champ. Bret won the title more, so Bret was better. How's that fit in to your arguments?