Pick Your Poison: Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart

[HBK-aholic]

Well this is going on in a different thread, so as Brian said, bring it here.

"The Montreal Screwjob", At the end of the day, no one in it was innocent, and the blame has been pushed from Shawn Michaels, to Bret Hart, to Vince McMahon and to Triple H. But really, who was the main participant in it?

I have to say Hart, because you cannot refuse to drop the belt to someone, especially on your way out of the company. Simply because it was in Canada, to Shawn Michaels, or even via submission? What Hart did was wrong, and that in itself warrants McMahon losing trust in Hart.

Vince knows the wrestlers better than anyone, and he obviously had a reason to think Hart was lying when he said he's drop it the following night. McMahon couln't risk the belt being taken to WCW and made a mockery of.

 

[BooCocky]

"The Montreal Screwjob", At the end of the day, no one in it was innocent, and the blame has been pushed from Shawn Michaels, to Bret Hart, to Vince McMahon and to Triple H. But really, who was the main participant in it?

according to Masters and Kelly it was HHH's idea. haha

I have to say Hart, because you cannot refuse to drop the belt to someone, especially on your way out of the company. Simply because it was in Canada, to Shawn Michaels, or even via submission? What Hart did was wrong, and that in itself warrants McMahon losing trust in Hart.

I blame Mr McMahon, him and Hart were in business together, Hart was a main focus of a business for years, and was a major reason on why the WWE exist. He tapped out in his own town. making him lose any creditability because he lost through submission, and by his own move. Losing momentum just because his own business parter didnt trust him.

Vince knows the wrestlers better than anyone, and he obviously had a reason to think Hart was lying when he said he's drop it the following night. McMahon couln't risk the belt being taken to WCW and made a mockery of.

That is exactly my point. they were in business together, McMahon should know his main man, if he didnt it shows what kind of relationship they had. When push comes to shove it is McMahon to blame because he lacked trust in his own employer.

 

[HBK-aholic]

according to Masters and Kelly it was HHH's idea. haha

The whole idea may have been HHH's. I have heard people say this, and I think it's even hinted at in Heartbreak and Triumph. But this wouldn't have needed to happen if Hart had just dropped the belt.

I blame Mr McMahon, him and Hart were in business together, Hart was a main focus of a business for years, and was a major reason on why the WWE exist. He tapped out in his own town. making him lose any creditability because he lost through submission, and by his own move. Losing momentum just because his own business parter didnt trust him.

It doesn't matter when, where or how you lose. That really shouldn't be the point. Hart was leaving the WWE. It was his job to drop the belt to someone else before he did that.

That is exactly my point. they were in business together, McMahon should know his main man, if he didnt it shows what kind of relationship they had. When push comes to shove it is McMahon to blame because he lacked trust in his own employer.

No, it shows that McMahon had a reason not to trust Hart's word. Especially after he disobeyed McMahon in saying no to dropping the belt. How could Vince 100% trust what Hart said, after he wouldn't do what was best for the company when it was asked?

 

[BooCocky]

The whole idea may have been HHH's. I have heard people say this, and I think it's even hinted at in Heartbreak and Triumph. But this wouldn't have needed to happen if Hart had just dropped the belt.

Yeah because a DVD that is promoted by the WWE is going to agree with Hart and WCW. It just doesnt work that. Not to bash Vince, but they arent going to look at another side, on a WWE promoted DVD or book.

It doesn't matter when, where or how you lose. That really shouldn't be the point. Hart was leaving the WWE. It was his job to drop the belt to someone else before he did that

It wasn't that, its that he didnt want to lose in his home country. I've never heard, but Vince was unsure, it never said if Bret was not willing to lose via forfeiting, or losing several weeks later, it was McMahon who pulled the trigger because he did not trust his own employer. Bret Had the idea of forfeiting the title, and Vince agreed, then he wasn't sure, so could Hart get blamed for something Vince agreed to but later backed out?

No, it shows that McMahon had a reason not to trust Hart's word. Especially after he disobeyed McMahon in saying no to dropping the belt. How could Vince 100% trust what Hart said, after he wouldn't do what was best for the company when it was asked?

I just stated this, Hart had an idea of forfeiting or losing the belt. McMahon agreed then backed away, so how is this Harts fault when Vince agreed with it? McMahon didn't trust his employee even though they were in business for like 12+years

 

[HBK-aholic]

Yeah because a DVD that is promoted by the WWE is going to agree with Hart and WCW. It just doesnt work that. Not to bash Vince, but they arent going to look at another side, on a WWE promoted DVD or book.

I aren't saying it is, especially seeings as it is Shawn's book. I'm just saying it's even floated about HHH had something to do with it in that.

It wasn't that, its that he didnt want to lose in his home country. I've never heard, but Vince was unsure, it never said if Bret was not willing to lose via forfeiting, or losing several weeks later, it was McMahon who pulled the trigger because he did not trust his own employer. Bret Had the idea of forfeiting the title, and Vince agreed, then he wasn't sure, so could Hart get blamed for something Vince agreed to but later backed out?

Hart should have dropped the belt to Shawn when he was asked to, regardless of where it was. We could get Americans saying they didn't want to drop the belt in America. Well hello, not much would happen then would it? Whether it's his hometown or not he shouldn't just decide he isn't dropping it. I don't see a clause in everyones contract saying they don't have to lose in their country.

I just stated this, Hart had an idea of forfeiting or losing the belt. McMahon agreed then backed away, so how is this Harts fault when Vince agreed with it? McMahon didn't trust his employee even though they were in business for like 12+years

And what I'm saying is, McMahon must have had a reason for this. As you said they were in the business together for over 12 years. You'd think he'd know Bret Hart and what he was thinking more than anyone..

 

[BooCocky]

Hart should have dropped the belt to Shawn when he was asked to, regardless of where it was. We could get Americans saying they didn't want to drop the belt in America. Well hello, not much would happen then would it? Whether it's his hometown or not he shouldn't just decide he isn't dropping it. I don't see a clause in everyones contract saying they don't have to lose in their country.

But you are missing the point, Bret Hart didnt want to drop the belt, McMahon was ok with that. Hart came out with a plan, McMahon agreed with that. Ok, you got that McMahon agreed with the plan, and about Bret not losing the belt. So apparently Bret and Vince were on the same page. Wrong, Vince knew what he wanted to do. He wanted to stir up controversy. Which he did, but once he agreed with what Hart offered, and he turned his back on a main player for years, Hart brought creditability to so many things, the guy was a main stream player in the business for many years, and McMahon goes and turns his back on him? Come on, it was word for word, Vince agreed, then backed out fearing that Hart would leave, even though they came to an agreement? Hart said he wasn't going to leave with it. But his word and plan apparently wasn't good enough?

And what I'm saying is, McMahon must have had a reason for this. As you said they were in the business together for over 12 years. You'd think he'd know Bret Hart and what he was thinking more than anyone..

But Hart was a mainstream focus, so i dont see how Hart was to blame but Vince wasn't. It just doesnt make sense. I think Vince is a genius, but that was one thing i dont agree with

 

[jericho3150]

Yeah because a DVD that is promoted by the WWE is going to agree with Hart and WCW. It just doesnt work that. Not to bash Vince, but they arent going to look at another side, on a WWE promoted DVD or book.

But at the same time is anything ever really unbiased.. Can u honestly say that Brets book took a step back and looked at the situation from Shawn and Vinces view?? All you can really do is try to look at the two bias sides and try to come up with your own conclusions..

It wasn't that, its that he didnt want to lose in his home country. I've never heard, but Vince was unsure, it never said if Bret was not willing to lose via forfeiting, or losing several weeks later, it was McMahon who pulled the trigger because he did not trust his own employer. Bret Had the idea of forfeiting the title, and Vince agreed, then he wasn't sure, so could Hart get blamed for something Vince agreed to but later backed out?

Well... Vince only agreed to the Bret handing over the title on Raw after he had already made up his mind that no matter what Vince said Bret was not going to drop the title before Monday. So he told him that they could do the DQ so Bret would show up so they could screw him...

To me it's always been about someone picking what was good for him over what was good for the business.. and no one.. not Hogan..not Austin and not even Bret is bigger or more important than the company..

 

[HBK-aholic]

But you are missing the point, Bret Hart didnt want to drop the belt, McMahon was ok with that.

Whether McMahon was okay with it or not (Which tbh I don't know if he was 100% okay with it) it takes away from what I feel about Hart for not doing what was best for the business. Hell he was leaving, he had no purpose for the championship anymore.

Hart came out with a plan, McMahon agreed with that. Ok, you got that McMahon agreed with the plan, and about Bret not losing the belt. So apparently Bret and Vince were on the same page. Wrong, Vince knew what he wanted to do. He wanted to stir up controversy. Which he did, but once he agreed with what Hart offered, and he turned his back on a main player for years, Hart brought creditability to so many things, the guy was a main stream player in the business for many years, and McMahon goes and turns his back on him? Come on, it was word for word, Vince agreed, then backed out fearing that Hart would leave, even though they came to an agreement? Hart said he wasn't going to leave with it. But his word and plan apparently wasn't good enough?

That's what I'm trying to get at though, McMahon didn't think that his word was good enough, and he, and he alone must have had a reason for that.

Hart was a mainstream focus, so i dont see how Hart was to blame but Vince wasn't. It just doesnt make sense. I think Vince is a genius, but that was one thing i dont agree with

Vince obviously gave the go ahead for this, whoevers idea it was, therefore he also has to have some blame. But at the end of the day it goes down to Hart disrespected the company by saying no.

 

[BooCocky]

But at the same time is anything ever really unbiased.. Can u honestly say that Brets book took a step back and looked at the situation from Shawn and Vinces view?? All you can really do is try to look at the two bias sides and try to come up with your own conclusions.

Yes everyone is going to have there opinion, it was he said/ and he said (Hart, and McMahon.) VInce tried to do what is best for the company, but i can only agree so far, he turned his back on a mainstream performer for years. IMO Bret was wrongfully done.

Well... Vince only agreed to the Bret handing over the title on Raw after he had already made up his mind that no matter what Vince said Bret was not going to drop the title before Monday. So he told him that they could do the DQ so Bret would show up so they could screw him...

Well that is true, but it was Bret's plan that Vince agreed, it wasn't a Vince plan it was a Hart plan, thats why i am having a hard time seeing the other side. If Hart agreed to a Vince plan maybe, but it was the other way around. It seemed like Vince was going to screw Bret no matter what, ignoring what Hart had previously said.

To me it's always been about someone picking what was good for him over what was good for the business.. and no one.. not Hogan..not Austin and not even Bret is bigger or more important than the company..

I can also talk Hogan but thats another thread. Wrestling is a promotion, and we all know that, or at least we should. People are going to do what right for themselves. Bret was either going to lose on a Raw or forfeit the belt. It was Vince who turned his back, so he is as guilty as anyone else. Well at least in my eyes.

 

[BooCocky]

Whether McMahon was okay with it or not (Which tbh I don't know if he was 100% okay with it) it takes away from what I feel about Hart for not doing what was best for the business. Hell he was leaving, he had no purpose for the championship anymore.

See, I think we are both incapable of looking at it through opposite sides. Not a problem though. Even if Vince wasn't 100% positive, he did agree with Harts plan.

That's what I'm trying to get at though, McMahon didn't think that his word was good enough, and he, and he alone must have had a reason for that.

Why not though? They worked together for many many years? Bret did so much for the business (Shawn did too). But Bret solidified everything whether it was tag team, IC, or Heavyweight gold. McMahon trusted him with the company on his shoulders, why couldn't he trust his offer? Or why didnt he go through with the forfeiting of the gold? I just don't see that. McMahon trusted Bret with his company, but couldn't trust his word?(if that makes any sense?)

Vince obviously gave the go ahead for this, whoevers idea it was, therefore he also has to have some blame. But at the end of the day it goes down to Hart disrespected the company by saying no.

How? McMahon agreed to the plan. Hart was not willing to drop the belt and apparently McMahon was ok with it. They are all too blame, but i am pointing my fingers more towards Vince.

 

[HBK-aholic]

See, I think we are both incapable of looking at it through opposite sides. Not a problem though. Even if Vince wasn't 100% positive, he did agree with Harts plan.

Yeah, we are lol.

Yeah he did agree. But I'm pretty sure Hart agreed to be part of the WWe and do what was asked as champion. He didn't do that as he didn't drop it when needed.

Why not though? They worked together for many many years? Bret did so much for the business (Shawn did too). But Bret solidified everything whether it was tag team, IC, or Heavyweight gold. McMahon trusted him with the company on his shoulders, why couldn't he trust his offer? Or why didnt he go through with the forfeiting of the gold? I just don't see that. McMahon trusted Bret with his company, but couldn't trust his word?(if that makes any sense?)

I don't know why Vince didn't trust Hart. That's why I said, only Vince knows the answer to that. But I'm sure Hart refusing to drop the belt when asked would have been a factor in Vince choosing to do what he did.

How? McMahon agreed to the plan. Hart was not willing to drop the belt and apparently McMahon was ok with it. They are all too blame, but i am pointing my fingers more towards Vince.

Whereas I'm pointing it more at Hart, because if he'd have done what Vince asked in the first place nothing else would have happened, and he would have left the WWE with a great legacy and would be remembered by a lot more fans as being the good wrestler he was.

 

[jericho3150]

Yes everyone is going to have there opinion, it was he said/ and he said (Hart, and McMahon.) VInce tried to do what is best for the company, but i can only agree so far, he turned his back on a mainstream performer for years. IMO Bret was wrongfully done.

But couldn't you also say Bret turned his back on Vince and the Company when he refused to do what was right for business?? Bret always claimed to be a company man but back in those days Vince had his back against a wall and was almost put out of business..

Im not saying Bret was a bad guy..but he wasn't this virtuous company man he paints himself out to be.. At Mania 12 he puts over Shawn.. then 2 of WWF's top stars Diesel and Razor leave... At a time when WWF needed him Bret took off.. Then he started trashing HBK to the dirt sheets and in his Calgary Sun column to all his fans and tried to make Michaels win less legit because "Shawn didn't beat him in the 60mins".. He negotiated himself a huge contract that was bleeding the WWF dry to the point where Vince had to tell Bret I'm sorry I can't afford u anymore..

Well that is true, but it was Bret's plan that Vince agreed, it wasn't a Vince plan it was a Hart plan, thats why i am having a hard time seeing the other side. If Hart agreed to a Vince plan maybe, but it was the other way around. It seemed like Vince was going to screw Bret no matter what, ignoring what Hart had previously said.

But this was after days and weeks of trying to get Bret to give up the belt at or before SS97..Also u need to understand that Brets aggreement with WCW said that WCW could not announce him coming to there company until Nov 10th.. Which meant that had Bret retained the belt at Suvivor Series Bischoff could come down to the ring to kick off Nitro and announce that he had just signed the current WWF champion.. now if you think that Luger appearing in 2 shows on the same night was a shocker imagine WCW announcing that the guy with the WWF championshi belt is heading to Nitro.. And after he realized that Bret won't agree to give up the belt he had no choice but to think about the damage this would do to WWF.. he was already almost put out of business.. His company and all the people in the back were almost put out of work.. and they were supposed to risk this because of Bret Hart and him not wanting to job because he didn't like the other guy..

I just can't see were people would put one persons feelings over a whole company of people trying to make a living.. Maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to do but I really feel Bret pushed their hand in this..

 

[FlairFan2003]

Wow...what an argument, a lot more intense than the Hogan vs Flair debate which basically said (over and over) Flair was a better entertainer with a better legacy but Hogan was a bigger individual star.

I'd have to go with HBK for the reasons stated elsewhere. Both were good technicians and very athletic in the ring but HBK was a more complete package, he was more charismatic, better on the mic, plus he has played both a great heel and a terrific fan favorite. Hart basically cultivated a singles character based on his tag team work in the Hart Foundation and did little to change it. Even as a heel in 96-97 he was pretty much the same character.

Don't get me wrong, the ability to completely change crowd reaction to you with only the most subtle of changes is an exceptional skill, Hart's problem is that his character was not very exciting, somewhat bland. Michael's character has always been more inventive and creative and he adapted well to the changes in the industry (and his place in it). Hart had one schtick and that was it. Granted, he was good, and no doubt he could deliver a great individual match, but for entertainment purposes Michaels is better than him.

That's what gives HBK the edge as the two are two close to call in terms of ring ability (unlike Flair and Hogan, who may have been close in terms of charisma but Flair clearly excelled over Hulk as an in ring performer). Maybe things would have been viewed differently if HBK never recovered from his back injury and returned to the ring as he has restored some shine to a legacy that was previously marred by his reputation backstage. Michaels has come back, still delivers great matches and promos, and has helped advance numerous stories even when his character took a hit (and lost his share of matches, elevating younger guys and paying back veterans). Hart also had a reputation for "not being a team player" but not to HBK's degree. Injuries that ended Hart's career prematurely robbed him of the ability to restore his legacy in the way HBK has. Strictly based on what they did 1986-1999 then HBK wins - he may have been a jerk to work with but his entertainment value was awesome, superior to Hart.

 

[hbk316]

yeah difference is between the 2 is bret would make his opponent look great in the ring and would job if needed be

hbk would make himself look good in the ring and wont job to anyone he doesnt like

dumbest thing i have ever read.

 

[BooCocky]

I just realized, this should be in the screwjob thread in the old school section.
My bad .

But couldn't you also say Bret turned his back on Vince and the Company when he refused to do what was right for business??

Not necessarily, Hart was possibly the biggest thing at the time, and he was in his home town, those people paid to see him retain(well more than likely). but no Vince had other ideas, and they weren't involving Hart. Bret was willing to give up the belt, just not in his own town. What is wrong with that?

Bret always claimed to be a company man but back in those days Vince had his back against a wall and was almost put out of business..

Bret was also a reason on the WWE was still in business, he maintained popularity, so it isn't like he never did anything for the company. He did whats better for himself. Any businessman would have done the same thing. Someone offers me 250,000 dollars to take this job, but their rival offers me 500,000. Guess where i am heading?

Im not saying Bret was a bad guy..but he wasn't this virtuous company man he paints himself out to be.. At Mania 12 he puts over Shawn.. then 2 of WWF's top stars Diesel and Razor leave... At a time when WWF needed him Bret took off..

But how did he do that? I believe he was offered more money in WCW(I dont know for a fact or anything).

Then he started trashing HBK to the dirt sheets and in his Calgary Sun column to all his fans and tried to make Michaels win less legit because "Shawn didn't beat him in the 60mins".. He negotiated himself a huge contract that was bleeding the WWF dry to the point where Vince had to tell Bret I'm sorry I can't afford u anymore..

It wasn't Brets fault that the WWE couldn't afford him. I believe McMahon himself told him too look at the contract(I found a site before, when i find it again, I will post the excerpt).

But this was after days and weeks of trying to get Bret to give up the belt at or before SS97..Also u need to understand that Brets aggreement with WCW said that WCW could not announce him coming to there company until Nov 10th.. Which meant that had Bret retained the belt at Suvivor Series Bischoff could come down to the ring to kick off Nitro and announce that he had just signed the current WWF champion.. now if you think that Luger appearing in 2 shows on the same night was a shocker imagine WCW announcing that the guy with the WWF championshi belt is heading to Nitro.. And after he realized that Bret won't agree to give up the belt he had no choice but to think about the damage this would do to WWF.. he was already almost put out of business.. His company and all the people in the back were almost put out of work.. and they were supposed to risk this because of Bret Hart and him not wanting to job because he didn't like the other guy..

I can't argue there except for the fact that Bret bent over backwards for the business to keep it afloat.

I just can't see were people would put one persons feelings over a whole company of people trying to make a living.. Maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to do but I really feel Bret pushed their hand in this..

Wait, what about HBK when he was injured? Making reasons to believe that he did not want to lose to Hart? Come on, what about that? If HBK wanted whats best for the company he should have forfeited the belt, but he was too obnoxious and big headed to think of anything differently, he didnt wanna lose to Hart, and Hart didn't wanna lose to HBK

dumbest thing i have ever read.

How? Hart did so much in the WWE, and i believe it was HBK's selfishness that started this whole entire thing? Shawn not wanting to lose cleanly to Hart.

I would take Hart over HBK any day of the week, IMO Hart was a genius when it came to ring work, and he can work a match without reusing the same moves over and over.

 

[HBK-aholic]

yeah difference is between the 2 is bret would make his opponent look great in the ring and would job if needed be

hbk would make himself look good in the ring and wont job to anyone he doesnt like

Have you watched the same WWe I've watched? Have you seen the same matches? Shawn Michaels makes BOTH people in that ring look good, not just himself. Shawn puts everything into all of his matches, and that's not just for his benefit. I've always been a Kennedy fan but his matches with shawn just proved to me he has it. Shawn made Kennedy look good end of.

Recently, Shawn's match with Jeff Hardy. Shawn lost the match, yet he looked Jeff look great. This was a match many have said was PPV worthy, and Shawn made Jeff look as good as he made himself look. I aren't saying it was all on Shawn, because Hardy did very well, but to say Shawn makes everyone else look worse than himself in matches is just pure ignorance.

 

[bambam]

Have you watched the same WWe I've watched? Have you seen the same matches? Shawn Michaels makes BOTH people in that ring look good, not just himself. Shawn puts everything into all of his matches, and that's not just for his benefit. I've always been a Kennedy fan but his matches with shawn just proved to me he has it. Shawn made Kennedy look good end of.

Recently, Shawn's match with Jeff Hardy. Shawn lost the match, yet he looked Jeff look great. This was a match many have said was PPV worthy, and Shawn made Jeff look as good as he made himself look. I aren't saying it was all on Shawn, because Hardy did very well, but to say Shawn makes everyone else look worse than himself in matches is just pure ignorance.

I have to agree with this one. Michaels makes alot of people look good in the ring. WM 14, Austin's first World Title reign, Michaels made him look great in this match (help from Tyson), and Kennedy and Hardy are the latest. Michaels jobs when he knows he has to.

I like both Hart and Michaels. If you want technical wrestling and ring awareness then Hart all the way. If you want good ability, ring skills, charisma, and showmenship, then you pick Michaels.
I choose Michaels in this case because all and all, I think as a career is concerned, Michaels was better all-around. Did great work, Really good in-ring skills, plus has the charisma and showmenship to be a total package. Hart was bland on the mic, but his wrestling skills were way better.

Vote Michaels!

 

[jericho3150]

Not necessarily, Hart was possibly the biggest thing at the time, and he was in his home town, those people paid to see him retain(well more than likely). but no Vince had other ideas, and they weren't involving Hart. Bret was willing to give up the belt, just not in his own town. What is wrong with that?

Well he wasn't the biggest thing at the time or Vince would have never let him go to WCW.. Also Shawn was maineventing the PPV's and Bret was the WWF Champion and wrestling in the uppermid card..

And Bret has said that losing in Canada wasn't the main issue.. the main issue was Shawn.. Bret claims he disrespect him and that is why he refused to job to Shawn at SS97... Vince even asked him to drop the title at a house show in Detroit before Suvivor Series but Bret said no to that too..

He did whats better for himself. Any businessman would have done the same thing. Someone offers me 250,000 dollars to take this job, but their rival offers me 500,000. Guess where i am heading?

Thats fine.. there is nothing wrong with that... BUT then don't try to claim you were this 100% loyal company man who bled WWF...

But how did he do that? I believe he was offered more money in WCW(I dont know for a fact or anything).

Yes WCW gave Bret $3 mil for 3 years... WWF was paying $1.5 mil but for 20 years so for years and years after his in ring career was over he would still be making big money..

I can't argue there except for the fact that Bret bent over backwards for the business to keep it afloat.

Except for when WWF was really hurting for talent and Hart took an 8 month Vacay and then trashed the WWF champion while he took time off and bled the company dry with a huge contract Vince was forced to give him because Bret had been negotiating with WCW.. other than that yes what you said is true..

Wait, what about HBK when he was injured? Making reasons to believe that he did not want to lose to Hart? Come on, what about that? If HBK wanted whats best for the company he should have forfeited the belt, but he was too obnoxious and big headed to think of anything differently, he didnt wanna lose to Hart, and Hart didn't wanna lose to HBK

I don't really get what your arguement is here.. Could you make this more clear?? HBK did forfeit the belt.. and he wasn't leaving the WWF. And I think what you are referring to is the RUMOR that Shawn faked an injury to get out of jobbing to Bret..

How? Hart did so much in the WWE, and i believe it was HBK's selfishness that started this whole entire thing? Shawn not wanting to lose cleanly to Hart.

Thats not selfish it's smart... Shawn was the top guy in the company and he should have NEVER lost cleanly to a guy heading to WCW... I think a lot of people forget the business end of this and only care about Brets hurt feelings..

 

[BooCocky]

Well he wasn't the biggest thing at the time or Vince would have never let him go to WCW.. Also Shawn was maineventing the PPV's and Bret was the WWF Champion and wrestling in the uppermid card..

Ay, Bret was the man in the company for 12+ years. He was a main focus in the WWE for years, and the way he got screwed was ridiculous. It's not that Vince iddnt let him go, he was offered bigger, and better things, more money, and so forth, Mr McMahon himself told him to go look at WCW's offer because WWE at the time was financially unstable

And Bret has said that losing in Canada wasn't the main issue.. the main issue was Shawn.. Bret claims he disrespect him and that is why he refused to job to Shawn at SS97... Vince even asked him to drop the title at a house show in Detroit before Suvivor Series but Bret said no to that too..

See, Bret's main issue wasn't to drop the belt, it was to drop to Michaels, they despised each others. Bret was never injured nor did he ever injure anyone. Is that hard to ask when McMahon agreed to the offer that Hart through on the table?

Thats fine.. there is nothing wrong with that... BUT then don't try to claim you were this 100% loyal company man who bled WWF...

O he was loyal, for 12 years. Can you blame him, McMahon offered him a huge contract, then later on asked em if he can look at WCW's offer. SO honestly can you blame him. If i worked at my job for 12 years, and i have done everything they ask, but a job comes around and they offer me twice as much money. WHere am i heading? It is a business move, it was suppose to keep Hart financially stable. Its not that he wasn't loyal to the E, its that his time was running out.

Yes WCW gave Bret $3 mil for 3 years... WWF was paying $1.5 mil but for 20 years so for years and years after his in ring career was over he would still be making big money..

that's true, and he'd still be under contract. But at the time he didnt know WCW was going to tank. WCW could have offered him a job after his 3 year contract expired.

Except for when WWF was really hurting for talent and Hart took an 8 month Vacay and then trashed the WWF champion while he took time off and bled the company dry with a huge contract Vince was forced to give him because Bret had been negotiating with WCW.. other than that yes what you said is true..

If i remember correctly, that was Harts only vacation, 6 months in a 12 year period, which isn't bad when yo think about all the injuries and so forth. McMahon told Hart to look at WCW's offer because Vince basically cou;dn't afford him, I dont think Hart had a problem staying in the E, its that VInce forced him out

I don't really get what your arguement is here.. Could you make this more clear??

I will try

HBK did forfeit the belt.. and he wasn't leaving the WWF. And I think what you are referring to is the RUMOR that Shawn faked an injury to get out of jobbing to Bret..

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this the "Lost my smile speech. Hart was slated to win the belt at WM 13. So it seems like HBK didn't want to lose or forfeit, so Hart was only returning the favor. It just happened to be on his way out the door. Not too take a shot at you, but have you ever seen the speech?

Thats not selfish it's smart... Shawn was the top guy in the company and he should have NEVER lost cleanly to a guy heading to WCW... I think a lot of people forget the business end of this and only care about Brets hurt feelings..

How wasn't it? Shawn didn't want to relinquish the belt to Hart months earlier, Hart was only returning the favor. Hart signed the 20 year deal therefore he had no intention to go to WCW. But it was McMahon who pushed him out the door because they couldn't afford him, So at the time he wasn't heading to WM, so why didn;t Shawn relinquish the belt to him, when HBK was injured?

 

[Slim Pickns]

I back up Brian 100 billion percent on this one. I hate when people call Hart a whiner for not dropping the belt to Shawn. Shawn wouldn't do it for him, even after Hart did it for Shawn on the biggest stafe of them all. Hart would have dropped the belt to anyone. Hell, he dropped it to BOB BACKLUND nearly two decades after his last reign, knowig full well Diesel was gonna handle him. Remember when he went out of his way to give THE MOUNTIE the IC belt.

For 12 years Hart never missed a day, even if the work day consistented of putting someone over. All the Hart nay-sayers like to point out the ONE TIME he refused to job.

 

[Shocky]

I back up Brian 100 billion percent on this one. I hate when people call Hart a whiner for not dropping the belt to Shawn. Shawn wouldn't do it for him, even after Hart did it for Shawn on the biggest stafe of them all. Hart would have dropped the belt to anyone. Hell, he dropped it to BOB BACKLUND nearly two decades after his last reign, knowig full well Diesel was gonna handle him. Remember when he went out of his way to give THE MOUNTIE the IC belt.

For 12 years Hart never missed a day, even if the work day consistented of putting someone over. All the Hart nay-sayers like to point out the ONE TIME he refused to job.

You want to know why, because people for some reason have twisted Shawn Michaels into something he isn't, and that's the patron Saint of professional wrestling. most new fans simply refuse to believe that the man was an asshole from the bottom of his toe all the way up to his rotten ego. Shawn Michaels was an assholes asshole, and he is willing to admit it.

It's revisionist, WWE manipulated history. When assholes like Triple H say that the screwjob was a good thing, the Kool-Aid drinkers chug it down with no thought process what so ever. Bret Hart is far from a whiner. Shawn Michaels ducked Bret Hart at WM13 and as said before, Bret Hart returned the favor at Survivor Series in 1997. It wasn't even a refusal to job to Michaels, it was a matter of principal, and he nearly had the entire locker room walk out on Vince McMahon. The only reason they didn't, because Bret Hart asked them not too, not too bad for a selfish whiny cry baby that was only thinking of himself.

 

[Slim Pickns]

You want to know why, because people for some reason have twisted Shawn Michaels into something he isn't, and that's the patron Saint of professional wrestling. most new fans simply refuse to believe that the man was an asshole from the bottom of his toe all the way up to his rotten ego. Shawn Michaels was an assholes asshole, and he is willing to admit it.

It's revisionist, WWE manipulated history. When assholes like Triple H say that the screwjob was a good thing, the Kool-Aid drinkers chug it down with no thought process what so ever. Bret Hart is far from a whiner. Shawn Michaels ducked Bret Hart at WM13 and as said before, Bret Hart returned the favor at Survivor Series in 1997. It wasn't even a refusal to job to Michaels, it was a matter of principal, and he nearly had the entire locker room walk out on Vince McMahon. The only reason they didn't, because Bret Hart asked them not too, not too bad for a selfish whiny cry baby that was only thinking of himself.

This is my favorite thing to argue with Shawn Michaels fans about. I like the "new" HBK so to speak. Its like he matured 10 years later than most of us do. I love how they won't admit he was a dick, be he will. Either way, I could go on and on about how much I enjoyed watching Bret Hart. He was by far my favorite, and was the one wrestler I would drop everything and watch. I went to a house show at the old Minneapolis Civic Center (no longer exists) without looking at the card. I went because Hart was there.

I almost feel bad for the 10-16 year olds on here bashing Hart every chance they get. They have no idea how much they missed. I don't need to win a debate with them to see how good Hart was, my DVD-VHS collection proves enough.

 

[jericho3150]

Ay, Bret was the man in the company for 12+ years. He was a main focus in the WWE for years, and the way he got screwed was ridiculous. It's not that Vince iddnt let him go, he was offered bigger, and better things, more money, and so forth, Mr McMahon himself told him to go look at WCW's offer because WWE at the time was financially unstable

But did you know... Vince told Bret that he couldn't afford his contract anymore.. He asked Bret to defer his half of his payments till WWF was in a better play moneywise.. Bret refused so that is when Vince told him that he couldn't keep him anymore and would breach his contract... Bret contacted WCW... Later Vince told Bret that things had turned around with the money and they could afford to keep Bret after all.. They left for a European tour believing that the crisis was over... WCW contacted Bret again and offered him big money and Bret took it.. Vince tried to keep Bret..

See, Bret's main issue wasn't to drop the belt, it was to drop to Michaels, they despised each others. Bret was never injured nor did he ever injure anyone. Is that hard to ask when McMahon agreed to the offer that Hart through on the table?

Your just not getting it... Yes Bret did work his ass off for the company... but the company also made Bret a huge star and a multi-millionaire ..Brets choice was a selfish it only helped his ego and potentially hurt the company.

that's true, and he'd still be under contract. But at the time he didnt know WCW was going to tank. WCW could have offered him a job after his 3 year contract expired.

If money is really the only factor in your decision making process I feel bad for you..

If i remember correctly, that was Harts only vacation, 6 months in a 12 year period, which isn't bad when yo think about all the injuries and so forth. McMahon told Hart to look at WCW's offer because Vince basically cou;dn't afford him, I dont think Hart had a problem staying in the E, its that VInce forced him out

Which again.. if Bret wanted to take time off... good for him.. the problem I have is when he trys to argue that he was a totally loyal company man and then does things that don't reflect that. I feel Bret was loyal.. but to himself.. not the WWF.

I will try

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this the "Lost my smile speech. Hart was slated to win the belt at WM 13. So it seems like HBK didn't want to lose or forfeit, so Hart was only returning the favor. It just happened to be on his way out the door. Not too take a shot at you, but have you ever seen the speech?

Yes that was the smile speech. And it's funny that you seem to buy into the whole Shawn faked an injury to get out of jobbing to Bret... Which never had any real merit. For this scenario to be true.. Evil Shawn.. faked a knee injury.. lied to everyone about it.. Fooled the doctors.. Had surgery to repair an injury that never happened.. went to rehab for months just to throw people off the scent. Missed months of work at a time when there were no gauranteed contracts thus losing hundreds of thousands of dollar not to mention the Wrestlemania main event payday.. and Risk losing his top spot in the company in his absense..

All to get out of doing a job for Bret... wow he really is evil..

 

[jericho3150]

I back up Brian 100 billion percent on this one. I hate when people call Hart a whiner for not dropping the belt to Shawn. Shawn wouldn't do it for him, even after Hart did it for Shawn on the biggest stafe of them all.

Hart would have dropped the belt to anyone. Hell, he dropped it to BOB BACKLUND nearly two decades after his last reign,

Why does Bret get congratulated for doing his job??? And BTW Bob Backlund didn't go over clean at all.. Bret was in the chicken wing and never gave up.. Brets mother threw in the towel..

Remember when he went out of his way to give THE MOUNTIE the IC belt.

Bret also made sure that the announcer said that Bret was wrestling with 105 degree temp and against doctors orders.. making sure Mountie did not look like had beaten Bret fairly... Yokozuna beat Bret when Bret had yoko inn the sharpshooter about to tap and Mr Fuji threw salt in Brets eyes.. Shawn beat Bret but not until overtime so Bret used this to say that Shawn didn't really beat him fair.. I really can't think of too many people who beat Bret clean.. Owen and Bulldog.. but not many others..

For 12 years Hart never missed a day, even if the work day consistented of putting someone over. All the Hart nay-sayers like to point out the ONE TIME he refused to job.

He missed 2 days.. as he admitted before.

 

[BooCocky]

But did you know... Vince told Bret that he couldn't afford his contract anymore.. He asked Bret to defer his half of his payments till WWF was in a better play moneywise.. Bret refused so that is when Vince told him that he couldn't keep him anymore and would breach his contract... Bret contacted WCW... Later Vince told Bret that things had turned around with the money and they could afford to keep Bret after all.. They left for a European tour believing that the crisis was over... WCW contacted Bret again and offered him big money and Bret took it.. Vince tried to keep Bret..

that isn't the way i've seen it. Bret signs huge deal, WWE falls into a money crisis, Mr McMahon asks Bret to look at his offer. Bret took it. When someone offers you more money you are bound to go, you are in the business for your self.

Your just not getting it... Yes Bret did work his ass off for the company... but the company also made Bret a huge star and a multi-millionaire ..Brets choice was a selfish it only helped his ego and potentially hurt the company.

How did it hurt the company? Explain? Bret was one of two reasons why that company was afloat and Mr McMahon turns his back on him, it shouldn't work that way, especially when Hart busted his balls off for 12 years.

If money is really the only factor in your decision making process I feel bad for you..

So tell me, your a Major League baseball, you are a pitcher for the Pittsburgh Pirates. You have a 2 million dollar contract. So two million per, and you have a powerhouse coming to you, and saying, we will give you a 3 yr contract, that averages around 5 million per. Where are you heading? The big league, or basically the minors?

Which again.. if Bret wanted to take time off... good for him.. the problem I have is when he trys to argue that he was a totally loyal company man and then does things that don't reflect that. I feel Bret was loyal.. but to himself.. not the WWF.

How is this, Bret had no problems in jobbing, he had a problem losing to Michaels. He even asked about losing to Austin. Hart no problem putting people over, i believe he put Backlund over years after his last reign( I know bret didnt put him over cleanly, but he got another reign). Knowing whats going to happen to Bob anyways





Yes that was the smile speech. And it's funny that you seem to buy into the whole Shawn faked an injury to get out of jobbing to Bret... Which never had any real merit. For this scenario to be true.. Evil Shawn.. faked a knee injury.. lied to everyone about it.. Fooled the doctors.. Had surgery to repair an injury that never happened.. went to rehab for months just to throw people off the scent. Missed months of work at a time when there were no gauranteed contracts thus losing hundreds of thousands of dollar not to mention the Wrestlemania main event payday.. and Risk losing his top spot in the company in his absense..[/QUOTE]
it isnt the fake injury, its that he refused to relinquish the title, which meant he didn't want to lose it to Hart. Therefore all as Hart did was return the favor, even though Mr Hart put him over previously.

All to get out of doing a job for Bret... wow he really is evil..

Alright, remember about how the superstars were going to walk out? Why didn't they? Because Bret asked em not to. How is Bret whiny, and selfish, if they walked out they destroyed the company, but No, Bret basically convinced em to stay saving the company. So honestly i have no idea how Bret is a whiny, or selfish baby. I just don't see it.