Pick Your Poison: Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart

[jericho3150]

You want to know why, because people for some reason have twisted Shawn Michaels into something he isn't, and that's the patron Saint of professional wrestling. most new fans simply refuse to believe that the man was an asshole from the bottom of his toe all the way up to his rotten ego. Shawn Michaels was an assholes asshole, and he is willing to admit it.

I think everyone is willing to admit Shawn was an asshole.. the problem people have is when we also are willing to admit Bret was an asshole too.. maybe not to the same degree and certainly not out in the open like Shawn did but they are both involved in what happened between them.. they both hated each other..they both pushed each others buttons until it finally came to a head.. Patron saint of wrestling?? Hardly.. but I think blame can be dished out on all sides..

the Kool-Aid drinkers chug it down with no thought process what so ever. Bret Hart is far from a whiner. Shawn Michaels ducked Bret Hart at WM13 and as said before, Bret Hart returned the favor at Survivor Series in 1997. It wasn't even a refusal to job to Michaels, it was a matter of principal,

It's funny that you accuse others of drinking the Koolaid.. yet you bring up baseless rumors and present them as fact.. Such as Shawn ducked Bret at WM13 which has never..in 11years had one fact come out in support of this...it seems you might have drank a little Hitman Koolaid yourself.

 

[jericho3150]

that isn't the way i've seen it. Bret signs huge deal, WWE falls into a money crisis, Mr McMahon asks Bret to look at his offer. Bret took it. When someone offers you more money you are bound to go, you are in the business for your self.

thats the way it went down.. this was from Brets sources himself. It in the Meltzer Montreal screwjob story.

How did it hurt the company? Explain?

Well first off Bret had signed a contract with WCW. They had included a deal stated that WCW could not announce that they had signed Bret until Nov 10th.. Survivor Series was Nov 9th. So if Bret keeps the belt the next night Eric Bischoff could have walked out on Nitro and announced that WCW had just hired the current WWF champion. Thus making WWF seem like the minor leagues.. Bret wanted to hand over the belt.. Well he had beaten Taker.. had beaten Austin twice and had Shawn not been able to take the title off of Bret would have seemed like Bret was the WWF's number one performer.. he was the champ.. no one could beat him and now he's taking off to the big leagues..which would have devalued the WWF to a second rate show. How can Vince say he's the better wrestling comapny when he just lost a guy non of his current roster could beat?? Now if Shawn beats Bret... WCW is no longer getting WWF's champion.. they are not getting WWF's #1 guy..

So tell me, your a Major League baseball, you are a pitcher for the Pittsburgh Pirates. You have a 2 million dollar contract. So two million per, and you have a powerhouse coming to you, and saying, we will give you a 3 yr contract, that averages around 5 million per. Where are you heading? The big league, or basically the minors?

Heres a more accurate picture... You are a pitcher for the Pirates.. Now the Pirates have been really great to you for 12years and you are now approaching the end of your career. They have advertised you.. helped you mechandise yourself and made you a big star. Pirates are just trying to hang on to there playoff hopes.. Now the Yankees come along and offer 4 million per year for 3 years..AND the yankees entire goal is to put the Pirates out of business... Pirates are paying you 2 million a year but they are also want you to still be part of the company after you retire and are going to still pay u $2 mil a year for the next 20 years.. Are you loyal to the Pirates.. who helped you get to where you are.. or are you loyal to the money??

it isnt the fake injury, its that he refused to relinquish the title, which meant he didn't want to lose it to Hart. Therefore all as Hart did was return the favor, even though Mr Hart put him over previously.

I don't understand what u mean.. Shawn DID relinquish the title.. He relinquished it when he gave the speech...

Alright, remember about how the superstars were going to walk out? Why didn't they? Because Bret asked em not to. How is Bret whiny, and selfish, if they walked out they destroyed the company, but No, Bret basically convinced em to stay saving the company. So honestly i have no idea how Bret is a whiny, or selfish baby. I just don't see it.

Where did this story come from?? Bret?? And I have no idea how you can't see that Bret was being selfish.. I guess it's just what side of the road your on..

 

[HBK-aholic]

I back up Brian 100 billion percent on this one. I hate when people call Hart a whiner for not dropping the belt to Shawn. Shawn wouldn't do it for him, even after Hart did it for Shawn on the biggest stafe of them all. Hart would have dropped the belt to anyone. Hell, he dropped it to BOB BACKLUND nearly two decades after his last reign, knowig full well Diesel was gonna handle him. Remember when he went out of his way to give THE MOUNTIE the IC belt.

Shawn and Hart hated each other, end of. They both worked so hard to annoy each other and this was the ending to it. I'm Shawn's biggest fan, and I'll say, during those years he was a complete idiot to say the least. He himself has admitted it. But Hart was leaving the company. You cannot say Hart had a right not to drop the belt. It's what happens when you choose to leave. And shawn was going to be the new champion. He was going to be top of the company now. Hart shouldn't have had a choice over who to drop the belt to. It would have screwed up all the other plans for Shawn and the company.

For 12 years Hart never missed a day, even if the work day consistented of putting someone over. All the Hart nay-sayers like to point out the ONE TIME he refused to job.

Because he was leaving! He was going to lose the title anyway, and he acted completely unprofessional regarding it. I was a Hart fan up until this point, I enjoyed his matches and I won't ever say anythign bad about his in rign talent. But I lost a hell of a lot of respect for this guy. What happened in Montreal, wouldn't have happened if Hart had done as he was asked.

 

[Shocky]

It's funny that you accuse others of drinking the Koolaid.. yet you bring up baseless rumors and present them as fact.. Such as Shawn ducked Bret at WM13 which has never..in 11years had one fact come out in support of this...it seems you might have drank a little Hitman Koolaid yourself.

No, accept for the fact that on the latest HBK DVD, Triple H admits to what I accuse him of, and even Chris Jericho takes jabs at HBK's knee injury, and the WWE itself subtley admits that the knee injury was crap. Why would they put that on the DVD. The WWE is the king of revisionist history, so they would have swept any doubt out the window with that DVD,b ut all they did was open it more.

 

[2fister]

No, accept for the fact that on the latest HBK DVD, Triple H admits to what I accuse him of, and even Chris Jericho takes jabs at HBK's knee injury, and the WWE itself subtley admits that the knee injury was crap. Why would they put that on the DVD. The WWE is the king of revisionist history, so they would have swept any doubt out the window with that DVD,b ut all they did was open it more.

I own the DVD.. please elighten me.. when does HHH admit to this??? And Jericho recalled at the time he was watching it not knowing if it was a work or not... and said something to the effect of if it wasn't a shoot it was brilliant.

I think you might have misunderstood some things..

 

[Slim Pickns]

Shawn and Hart hated each other, end of. They both worked so hard to annoy each other and this was the ending to it. I'm Shawn's biggest fan, and I'll say, during those years he was a complete idiot to say the least. He himself has admitted it. But Hart was leaving the company. You cannot say Hart had a right not to drop the belt. It's what happens when you choose to leave. And shawn was going to be the new champion. He was going to be top of the company now. Hart shouldn't have had a choice over who to drop the belt to. It would have screwed up all the other plans for Shawn and the company.



Because he was leaving! He was going to lose the title anyway, and he acted completely unprofessional regarding it. I was a Hart fan up until this point, I enjoyed his matches and I won't ever say anythign bad about his in rign talent. But I lost a hell of a lot of respect for this guy. What happened in Montreal, wouldn't have happened if Hart had done as he was asked.

Yes I can. Hart would have dropped the belt to anyone but HBK. This included, Austin, Taker, or even one of the Headbangers for all he cared. The fact that Bret worked a schedule unmatched by anyone of Vince's other employees (especially HBK), should grant him the right to not put over his arch rival who wouldn't do the same for him.

Jericho1350-Sorry, Bret missed two days, I know he said this. Still, that is an impressive streak that Michaels hasn't even come close to ever touching. Also, if you can't find matches where Bret cleanly lost other than Owen or Bulldog, than I'm just going to assume you don't watch wrestling.

I love how the new WWE fans like to come bash Hart every chance they get. If you grew up with the Hart Foundation vs the Bulldogs and watched Bret's transition to singles wrestling you would have a far different opinion. Guys like Brian and Shocky grew up watching Hart and I know exactly how they feel when they read your revisionist outlook.

 

[BooCocky]

He himself has admitted it. But Hart was leaving the company. You cannot say Hart had a right not to drop the belt. It's what happens when you choose to leave.

Yes we can, Hart had no time putting anyone over, it was Shawn who he did not want to put over. Bret even suggested Stone Cold. Apparently him and Mr McMahon weren't on the same page. So Bret offered his little I forfeit or lose the title the next night. So Vince apparently agreed to this. Then he turned his back

And shawn was going to be the new champion. He was going to be top of the company now. Hart shouldn't have had a choice over who to drop the belt to. It would have screwed up all the other plans for Shawn and the company.

For a man that did so much for the business he should have a right on who he wanted to lose or put over. He wanted to build Austin, and lose to him, one of the most credible champions losing to a future star. It would have made a lot of sense. It wasn't Shawn who made Austin a credible champion, it was Bret, Shawn just finished what Bret had started going into WM.

Because he was leaving! He was going to lose the title anyway, and he acted completely unprofessional regarding it.

No he didn't, he suggested Austin, which makes it sound like he wanted to build for the future. So how was he acting unprofessional, when Michaels agreed to this whole thing? I could easily say Michaels acted unprofessional because he wanted to screw his enemy.

I was a Hart fan up until this point, I enjoyed his matches and I won't ever say anythign bad about his in rign talent. But I lost a hell of a lot of respect for this guy. What happened in Montreal, wouldn't have happened if Hart had done as he was asked.

And this wouldn't have happened if McMahon didn't lie to Bret. hmm. McMahon and Michaels acted unprofessional. Hart had say in what he wanted to do, so he went along with his little power he had in his contract.

I don't understand what u mean.. Shawn DID relinquish the title.. He relinquished it when he gave the speech...

Put he didn't forfeit the belt to Hart. So all as Hart did was return the favor until he got screwed

thats the way it went down.. this was from Brets sources himself. It in the Meltzer Montreal screwjob story.

Where are you getting your information? McMahon or Michaels himself? Or just rumors?

Heres a more accurate picture... You are a pitcher for the Pirates.. Now the Pirates have been really great to you for 12years and you are now approaching the end of your career. They have advertised you.. helped you mechandise yourself and made you a big star. Pirates are just trying to hang on to there playoff hopes.. Now the Yankees come along and offer 4 million per year for 3 years..AND the yankees entire goal is to put the Pirates out of business... Pirates are paying you 2 million a year but they are also want you to still be part of the company after you retire and are going to still pay u $2 mil a year for the next 20 years.. Are you loyal to the Pirates.. who helped you get to where you are.. or are you loyal to the money??

Well its more money, and if you are talented you are going to make it, no matter if you're in PGH, VA, TX,OH,NY. You go for the money, you are in it to make money, and if a franchise offers you more money, you know damn well you're jumping ship, its pointless staying on a second rate team.

Where did this story come from?? Bret?? And I have no idea how you can't see that Bret was being selfish.. I guess it's just what side of the road your on..

Where have you been getting your story from? Shawn has been unprofessional. and has admitted being an asshole, which he is plain, and simple. you can't dispute that when you openly admit it. How was Bret selfish when he didn't want to lose the title to someone who he has already put over? Maybe if he puts over Austin the ratings increase dramatically, and a lot earlier than they already did.

 

[justinsayne]

Yes we can, Hart had no time putting anyone over, it was Shawn who he did not want to put over. Bret even suggested Stone Cold. Apparently him and Mr McMahon weren't on the same page. So Bret offered his little I forfeit or lose the title the next night. So Vince apparently agreed to this. Then he turned his back

First off HBK was a bigger draw at that time then Austin, so it would just be more logical to put the belt on HBK instead of Austin, second it's McMahon's company he can do what ever the fuck he wants, and it doesn't matter what Bret wants cause he's leaving

For a man that did so much for the business he should have a right on who he wanted to lose or put over. He wanted to build Austin, and lose to him, one of the most credible champions losing to a future star. It would have made a lot of sense. It wasn't Shawn who made Austin a credible champion, it was Bret, Shawn just finished what Bret had started going into WM.

Ok, this is all I have to say about this, Why the fuck should Vince care about what Bret thinks, when Bret is about to go and leave, and work for Vince's competition, the same competition that is trying to put Vince out of business, Bret should have just stepped up and done his fucking job, that is what he was getting paid to do, go out and wrestle, work the matches the way Vince wants you too, that means if Vince asks you to put over someone you dislike, you fucking do it

 

[BooCocky]

First off HBK was a bigger draw at that time then Austin, so it would just be more logical to put the belt on HBK instead of Austin, second it's McMahon's company he can do what ever the fuck he wants, and it doesn't matter what Bret wants cause he's leaving

Even though that isn't saying much at the time, but Hart was willing to do the job, just not to HBK, he had no problem putting someone over, that is why he suggested Austin. HBK would have been the bigger draw because Austin wasn't a huge focus as a main eventer yet, he did come off of his Hart feud and was in a title match. But then there is this, Austin was never given the belt, so how do you know how he would draw at the moment?

Ok, this is all I have to say about this, Why the fuck should Vince care about what Bret thinks,

Because McMahon apparently agreed to Harts plan of forfeiting the belt, so apparently McMahon did care a little bit

when Bret is about to go and leave, and work for Vince's competition, the same competition that is trying to put Vince out of business, Bret should have just stepped up and done his fucking job,

He would have, he just didn't want to lose his belt to HBK who he previously put over. Besides didnt hart have control over his contract?

that is what he was getting paid to do, go out and wrestle, work the matches the way Vince wants you too, that means if Vince asks you to put over someone you dislike, you fucking do it

I believe Hart had creative control, so why give him creative control when you aren't going to enforce it? Why do it when you are on your way out the door? Bret said he wasn't taking the belt, he was a main player in the company, so if you can't trust him, there is a serious problem. Hart left, and when the whole locker room was going too, that little whining baby told em not too. So why give Hart control over his contract when you aren't going to enforce it?

 

[Shocky]

I own the DVD.. please elighten me.. when does HHH admit to this??? And Jericho recalled at the time he was watching it not knowing if it was a work or not... and said something to the effect of if it wasn't a shoot it was brilliant.

I think you might have misunderstood some things..

Triple H pretty much says it in his interview, what did you miss? How about, if he's not going to do business with you, you do business for him. Of course this was all after the "Fuck" Bret Hart quote. Tripe H is a piece of work.

And Jericho says that it was a pretty bad excuse. And the WWE throws a "Shawn Michaels returned to action" 3 months later. Read between the lines.

And the whole, Bret should have just done hsi job, bad argument. Don't give the guy creative control over his character then. Vince made his own grave by giving that to Bret, and this is all besides the point the Bret basically was pushed out the door by Vince McMahon anyway.

 

[jericho3150]

Put he didn't forfeit the belt to Hart. So all as Hart did was return the favor until he got screwed

Shawn was injured... and as far as I've heard Vince never asked Shawn to lose to Bret..

Where are you getting your information? McMahon or Michaels himself? Or just rumors?

Well I've read the Meltzer account of the events.. I've seen Bret Hart; Wrestling with shadows doc... HBK's DVD..Bret DVD..HBK's shoot interview.. Bret Harts 3 shoot interviews..Earl Hebners shoot.. read Shawn Michaels book and am reading Brets book now.

Below is the Meltzer account of what happened.. Bret used to have this linked to his own website and sited this as accurate...

http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwemontreal.htm

[/QUOTE]Well its more money, and if you are talented you are going to make it, no matter if you're in PGH, VA, TX,OH,NY. You go for the money, you are in it to make money, and if a franchise offers you more money, you know damn well you're jumping ship, its pointless staying on a second rate team.[/QUOTE]

Well thats fine.. but that just mean that you are loyal to the money..


[/QUOTE]Where have you been getting your story from? Shawn has been unprofessional. and has admitted being an asshole, which he is plain, and simple. you can't dispute that when you openly admit it.[/QUOTE]

Nobody denies Shawn was an asshole.. but just because Shawn was an asshole doesn't mean Bret Hart wasn't an asshole.

[/QUOTE] How was Bret selfish when he didn't want to lose the title to someone who he has already put over? Maybe if he puts over Austin the ratings increase dramatically, and a lot earlier than they already did.[/QUOTE]

Because its not up to Bret (who's leaving WWF) who the new champion is going to be.. WWF had plans to build Austin in a huge royal rumble win to a huge fued with Michaels and Tyson with him winning the belt on the biggest stage of them all.. They shouldn't just throw the belt on him real quick because Bret doesn't want to do his job because someone was mean to him...

 

[jericho3150]

Jericho1350-Sorry, Bret missed two days, I know he said this. Still, that is an impressive streak that Michaels hasn't even come close to ever touching. Also, if you can't find matches where Bret cleanly lost other than Owen or Bulldog, than I'm just going to assume you don't watch wrestling.

I've watched Shawn and Bret since their tag team days.. I was a big Bret fan back when he was active in WWF but I feel that his fued with Shawn wasn't a good vs evil one way street.. Bret had his part in things too..

and please. If you can come up with some major loses Bret took cleanly please refresh my memory...

 

[jericho3150]

And the WWE throws a "Shawn Michaels returned to action" 3 months later. Read between the lines.

OMG.. you believe that 9/11 was an inside job don't you?? That really sounds like some conspiracy thing you would find in some wacky doc..

Maybe ..just maybe it was informing people that Shawn DID return to action 3 months later and wasn't some coded message to Hart fans..

 

[Shocky]

Yes, because a career threatening injury was so painful that the man was so brave and fought threw it and three months later he was back. If the knee injury was as bad as Michaels said it was, and knowing the stories of Michaels ego he would never have given up that title if he wasn't sure he couldn't come back. It was a duck job, and when the Michaels Hart talk died down, Michaels magically reappeared on WWF TV. Career threatening knee injury heels in 3 months, damn I want the healing rate of Shawn Michaels. Oh, and forget that positive steroid test as well, because Shawn Michaels said he never used steroids.

 

[2fister]

Triple H pretty much says it in his interview, what did you miss? How about, if he's not going to do business with you, you do business for him. Of course this was all after the "Fuck" Bret Hart quote. Tripe H is a piece of work.

Oh I thought you meant HHH implied Shawn faked his injury.. I never argued that Shawn was in on the screwjob..what are you talking about??

And Jericho says that it was a pretty bad excuse.

No he didn'... he said

"When I heard that he "lost his smile" I was thinking...If he's really hurt I feel bad for him and B if he's not really hurt thats one of the most creative things I've ever heard to lose a title."

And the WWE throws a "Shawn Michaels returned to action" 3 months later. Read between the lines.

WHAT LINES?? What are you talking about??? Sometimes the truth isn't the most interesting thing.. sometimes it just is what it is..

And the whole, Bret should have just done hsi job, bad argument. Don't give the guy creative control over his character then. Vince made his own grave by giving that to Bret, and this is all besides the point the Bret basically was pushed out the door by Vince McMahon anyway.

I wouldn't say Vince dug his grave... lets remember something.. Bret lost.. Vince got his way..Shawn got his way.. Bret went to WCW the company failed and WWF went throught the roof.

Now once again.. Bret had "reasonable creative control".. Which was put into Brets contract so WWF wouldn't bury him on the way out.. Bret wasn't getting buried.. they simply needed to get the title off him before Monday. If Brets reasonable creative control clause said he could pick when and where he drops the title then Bret would have not doubt taken Vince to court..

Also this is always such a lame arguement from Bret fans.. EVEN IF Bret had the right to say no.. it doesn't mean it was the right thing to do..