At least 27 People Dead, 18 of them children.

[klunderbunker]

Years ago here in Lexington there was a story of a gun happy father who had the proper training with weapons and the like. He heard a noise in his kitchen and went down with the gun loaded. Goes into the kitchen, sees someone leaning into the refrigerator and he fires. His four year old was buried four days later after being shot by his father while up getting a drink at night. But hey, instead of locking the door to his room and calling the police, he defended himself right?

 

[Rayne]

it'll actually be a surprise barbershop quartet your wife ordered. Who knows?

We don't do that in America. Something about the risk of being shot when surprising a homeowner.

 

[Natural Selection]

As are the odds of you shooting yourself, shooting someone you care about, having the gun fall in the hands of careless children, etc. Not to mention your odds of actually having your home invaded decrease as well.

Are you seriously so naive that you think gun owners are uninformed about the product they have? You seriously think we don't train and learn? Let me guess you think someone just buys a gun and starts carrying it in their pocket with one in the chamber? 9/10 accidental gun deaths are the result of people being stupid, careless, and not respecting their weapon. Seriously dude fuck you for even implying let alone directly referring to a weapon as a toy. They are not toys and no one that has ever actually handle one would ever refer to it that way.

I sincerely hope you experience the true fear of hiding under your fucking bed hoping the cops get there soon, because there is an armed criminal rummaging through your shit and you have no way to defend yourself. Oh, shit now he's in your room and he starts to look under the bed... What now?

But hell that will never happen so I guess I'm just crazy for being prepared. Whatever, have a nice day.

 

[Rayne]

Are you seriously so naive that you think gun owners are uninformed about the product they have? You seriously think we don't train and learn? Let me guess you think someone just buys a gun and starts carrying it in their pocket with one in the chamber? 9/10 accidental gun deaths are the result of people being stupid, careless, and not respecting their weapon. Seriously dude fuck you for even implying let alone directly referring to a weapon as a toy. They are not toys and no one that has ever actually handle one would ever refer to it that way.

I sincerely hope you experience the true fear of hiding under your fucking bed hoping the cops get there soon, because there is an armed criminal rummaging through your shit and you have no way to defend yourself. Oh, shit now he's in your room and he starts to look under the bed... What now?

But hell that will never happen so I guess I'm just crazy for being prepared. Whatever, have a nice day.

Fantastic. We're five days removed from another mass shooting in this country, and we're already hoping other people get shot by an armed intruder because we had a disagreement on the internet. AND NOTHING WAS LEARNED.

What I have learned, however, from this thread, is that if I find myself in the situation where I need to burglarize a home, that I should come in heavy and either immediately kill the homeowner to eliminate the risk of his having a weapon, or to use his children as hostages in order to ensure his compliance. Criminals are going to commit crimes no matter what, right? All that's happened is a drastic increase in the amount of violence necessary.

Nine out of ten (would like a source on this, as I suspect it's made up) accidental shootings are a result of someone being stupid? I'm pretty sure I don't want that many stupid people possessing firearms.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Are you seriously so naive that you think gun owners are uninformed about the product they have? You seriously think we don't train and learn? Let me guess you think someone just buys a gun and starts carrying it in their pocket with one in the chamber? 9/10 accidental gun deaths are the result of people being stupid, careless, and not respecting their weapon. Seriously dude fuck you for even implying let alone directly referring to a weapon as a toy. They are not toys and no one that has ever actually handle one would ever refer to it that way.

I know plenty of people with guns that think they are toys and/or would do stupid shit with them. For every person that owns a gun and does everything you are supposed to, there's another idiot that thinks he's Rambo or James Bond and will be able to shoot anyone and anything with no problem.

I sincerely hope you experience the true fear of hiding under your fucking bed hoping the cops get there soon, because there is an armed criminal rummaging through your shit and you have no way to defend yourself. Oh, shit now he's in your room and he starts to look under the bed... What now?

You punch him in the face? If he's right next to the bed, you don't need a gun.

 

[Natural Selection]

Fantastic. We're five days removed from another mass shooting in this country, and we're already hoping other people get shot by an armed intruder because we had a disagreement on the internet. AND NOTHING WAS LEARNED.

I did not say I wanted him to get shot.

I know plenty of people with guns that think they are toys and/or would do stupid shit with them. For every person that owns a gun and does everything you are supposed to, there's another idiot that thinks he's Rambo or James Bond and will be able to shoot anyone and anything with no problem.

This is where self control, discipline, and knowledge come into play.

 

[Rayne]

I did not say I wanted him to get shot.

Oh, right. You just hoped he was terrorized by people with firearms. The rhetorical difference is staggering.

 

[Natural Selection]

Nine out of ten (would like a source on this, as I suspect it's made up) accidental shootings are a result of someone being stupid? I'm pretty sure I don't want that many stupid people possessing firearms.

I was generalizing, but isn't accidental gun death stupid in nature? You would of had to be negligent at some point.

Once again it all comes down to personal responsibility.

 

[Beastmode 24]

When the hamburgler comes in for your TV, armed but with no pre-meditated idea of killing anybody, you jump out at him and shoot him. Click. Gun's jammed. RIP.

Unless you have enough common sense to clean and perform maintenance on your weapon on a consistent basis.

I'm jumping back into this debate, because I feel like I was misunderstood yesterday. I'm not saying that if someone unarmed comes into your house to steal your shit you pump him full of holes, but what I am saying is that if someone comes into your house armed, there's a pretty good goddamn chance that he's gonna try to shoot you.

In the military, we have rules of engagement that we use when identifying a hostile threat to eliminate. Nine times out of ten, we're not even cleared to engage the enemy unless they're shooting at us first. When it comes to defending my home, If I see a weapon in their hand, or if I see them reaching for a weapon, I'm going to neutralize the threat. Whether I shoot to kill or shoot to incapacitate depends on how threatened I would feel in that situation.

I'm not a shoot now ask questions later kind of guy. I've seen careers ended because of people doing stupid shit like that, but if I feel threatened, I'm going to eliminate the threat.

 

[Rayne]

I was generalizing, but isn't accidental gun death stupid in nature? You would of had to be negligent at some point.

Once again it all comes down to personal responsibility.

Yes. The statistics seem to bear out that as a society, most people aren't capable of handling the responsibility of firearms, and everyone is "personally responsible" until their kid steals their firearms, shoots them in their sleep, and murders twenty kids.

Or they're "personally responsible" when they accidentally shoot their 17 year old son sneaking into the house after a night of drinking.

Or they're "personally responsible" when they pistol-whip three teenagers who were on their lawn after holding them at gunpoint. (This one was actually a police officer. I can listen to Todd's hard-on growing.)

Or they're "personally responsible" when their child accidentally shoots their friend while showing them Daddy's handgun.

Everyone seems to be "personally responsible" until they fuck up. My issue is that way too many people are fucking up in this country, and since post-birth abortion hasn't been looked on kindly since WWII, we should correct the firearms issue, rather than the idiot issue.

 

[Rayne]

Unless you have enough common sense to clean and perform maintenance on your weapon on a consistent basis.

I'm jumping back into this debate, because I feel like I was misunderstood yesterday. I'm not saying that if someone unarmed comes into your house to steal your shit you pump him full of holes, but what I am saying is that if someone comes into your house armed, there's a pretty good goddamn chance that he's gonna try to shoot you.

In the military, we have rules of engagement that we use when identifying a hostile threat to eliminate. Nine times out of ten, we're not even cleared to engage the enemy unless they're shooting at us first. When it comes to defending my home, If I see a weapon in their hand, or if I see them reaching for a weapon, I'm going to neutralize the threat. Whether I shoot to kill or shoot to incapacitate depends on how threatened I would feel in that situation.

I'm not a shoot now ask questions later kind of guy. I've seen careers ended because of people doing stupid shit like that, but if I feel threatened, I'm going to eliminate the threat.

Again. All someone has to do now is murder you in your sleep, if they know you have a firearm. Or use the homeowner's children as hostages. But that'll never happen to you, because you're all Ghost Recon and shit.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Are you seriously so naive that you think gun owners are uninformed about the product they have? You seriously think we don't train and learn? Let me guess you think someone just buys a gun and starts carrying it in their pocket with one in the chamber?

So you are saying gun owners are informed, trained, and responsible?

9/10 accidental gun deaths are the result of people being stupid, careless, and not respecting their weapon.

So you are saying gun owners can be stupid, careless, and not respecting of their weapon that they are informed, trained, and responsible for?

Seriously dude fuck you for even implying let alone directly referring to a weapon as a toy. They are not toys and no one that has ever actually handle one would ever refer to it that way.

So you are saying gun owners can be stupid, careless, and not respecting of their weapon that they would never treat like a toy that they are informed, trained, and responsible for?

I sincerely hope you experience the true fear of hiding under your fucking bed hoping the cops get there soon, because there is an armed criminal rummaging through your shit and you have no way to defend yourself. Oh, shit now he's in your room and he starts to look under the bed... What now?

Let him take your shit and be happy that there are less mass murders and innocent children getting assassinated.

But hell that will never happen so I guess I'm just crazy for being prepared. Whatever, have a nice day.

How prepared are you for the day you get a call from a social worker telling you your child and 19 others were murdered at their school/movie theater/mall/church because of a sick person had access to weapons that have no other purpose beyond killing large numbers of people quickly?

 

[Natural Selection]

Yes. The statistics seem to bear out that as a society, most people aren't capable of handling the responsibility of firearms, and everyone is "personally responsible" until their kid steals their firearms, shoots them in their sleep, and murders twenty kids.

Or they're "personally responsible" when they accidentally shoot their 17 year old son sneaking into the house after a night of drinking.

Or they're "personally responsible" when they pistol-whip three teenagers who were on their lawn after holding them at gunpoint. (This one was actually a police officer. I can listen to Todd's hard-on growing.)

Or they're "personally responsible" when their child accidentally shoots their friend while showing them Daddy's handgun.

Everyone seems to be "personally responsible" until they fuck up. My issue is that way too many people are fucking up in this country, and since post-birth abortion hasn't been looked on kindly since WWII, we should correct the firearms issue, rather than the idiot issue.

Minus the cop scenario, everyone one of those scenarios is avoided with a gun safe.

If you want to make it harder to get guns I'm cool with that, but if you want to eliminate guns/ammo I am not cool with that.

EDIT: How come no one ever blames the knife after a stabbing?

 

[Rayne]

Jeez, if they're avoided with a gun safe, why do they keep occurring???? Maybe because the average level of "personal responsibility" is too low? Gun safes aren't exactly a new and unfamiliar technology.

We could talk about the house two blocks away from me (now referred to locally as simply "the gun house") where a laundry list of military history was found strewn about the house (literally), including over five thousand rounds of ammunition, claymore mines, and half a pound of C-4. Mines and plastique notwithstanding, I'm not sure if I like the idea of that "personally responsible" gun owner having a fire in his house.

The LAST thing I'm worried about, btw, is how "cool" people are with the idea.

 

[Tastycles]

The difference between a knife and a gun is too much to go into, but at a base level. If a child finds a knife, there is a whole host of things that have to happen for them to end up hurting someone. With a gun, they have to touch the only moving part.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

A knife is much less lethal. Plus any ******* can shoot a gun, it takes a man to stab someone.

Honestly idk why, but knife crimes are much less of a pressing issue than gun crimes.

 

[Thriller Ant]

EDIT: How come no one ever blames the knife after a stabbing?

Either the same day or the day before the incident in Connecticut, there was a guy that attacked 20 or so people in China with a knife. There were 0 deaths. That's why people care more about guns.

 

[Beastmode 24]

Either the same day or the day before the incident in Connecticut, there was a guy that attacked 20 or so people in China with a knife. There were 0 deaths. That's why people care more about guns.

It was the same day.

But it really is the root of the problem. When a gun falls into the wrong hands, people go apeshit over it.

But when people die of obesity no one is asking to regulate spoon control because they ate too much ice cream.

 

[Rayne]

It was the same day.

But it really is the root of the problem. When a gun falls into the wrong hands, people go apeshit over it.

But when people die of obesity no one is asking to regulate spoon control because they ate too much ice cream.

My child isn't going to be murdered by someone else's Mint Chocolate Chip.

 

[Thriller Ant]

But when people die of obesity no one is asking to regulate spoon control because they ate too much ice cream.

That is such a stupid argument. The spoon isn't what makes them fat, it's the ice cream. If you are going to use the obesity argument, at least make the equivalent comparison.

 

[Danger Burger]

It was the same day.

But it really is the root of the problem. When a gun falls into the wrong hands, people go apeshit over it.

But when people die of obesity no one is asking to regulate spoon control because they ate too much ice cream.

Because a guy isnt going into a school and killing 18 people with a spoon that shoots obesity, is he?

 

[Beastmode 24]

That is such a stupid argument. The spoon isn't what makes them fat, it's the ice cream. If you are going to use the obesity argument, at least make the equivalent comparison.

you know what I meant fucker. lol

 

[Rayne]

No, really, I'm not sure anyone here does. Because it sounded REALLY fucking stupid.

I'm not really worried about my kid sneaking into my refrigerator and playing with my Cherry Garcia.

 

[Beastmode 24]

Again. All someone has to do now is murder you in your sleep, if they know you have a firearm. Or use the homeowner's children as hostages. But that'll never happen to you, because you're all Ghost Recon and shit.

All the windows of my house have bars over them. My door has a deadbolt lock, plus an alarm system that's VERY loud when it goes off.

My bedroom is upstairs, so unless they can fucking fly or they're Count Dracula I'll be able to tell they're coming up to rob us.

I get the point that you're trying to make, but you're so dead set that you're right that you don't see the other side of the argument.

I think it's hilarious that I'm getting bashed because I defend my home the way I see fit. If you want to protect your house with a water gun, go ahead.

 

[Rayne]

All the windows of my house have bars over them. My door has a deadbolt lock, plus an alarm system that's VERY loud when it goes off.

My bedroom is upstairs, so unless they can fucking fly or they're Count Dracula I'll be able to tell they're coming up to rob us.

I get the point that you're trying to make, but you're so dead set that you're right that you don't see the other side of the argument.

I think it's hilarious that I'm getting bashed because I defend my home the way I see fit. If you want to protect your house with a water gun, go ahead.

Ah. So either gun control, or turn your house into an armed fortress and hope no one shows up with superior firepower. Which, again, I'm sure you can handle, because Tom Clancy wrote a book about you. Also, we're supposed to trust that you- and everyone else possessing a firearm- are responsible enough to keep that secured at all times. Which clearly isn't happening.

You're under the mistaken assumption that both sides of an argument have to make an equal amount of sense, like this "agree to disagree" crap. You're former military, although I'm going to guess from your disposition, probably not an officer. You should (if you understand your military history) know the concept of a "force multiplier". The Union didn't fold up when the Confederacy got Springfield rifles; they secured better rifles. The Soviet Union didn't roll over once the US got the atomic bomb; they got the atomic bomb. The US developed the hydrogen bomb and the ICBM, so the Soviet Union developed satellites (which at the time were viewed as possible nuclear weapons platforms.) The point is that an increase in force can simply be met with a responding increase of force. You aren't protecting yourself, you're just raising the level of violence necessary.

I see fit to defend my house with tactical nuclear weapons, mustard gas dispersal units, and weaponized anthrax. Why's that ridiculous? I'm merely protecting my home as I see fit, right?

That, and hope to God that no one shows up with any Ben & Jerry's!!!!