2016 NBA Finals

[Slyfox696]

I could go on, but my biggest argument is that James vs Jordan depends on this win.

James vs. Jordan has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happens in Game 7, regardless of who wins.

You act like the people you hate who base greatness off championships (who I hate as well). One championship rarely does a difference make.

I never said a championship makes the difference, I said if James wins another, I think it will help eliminate that argument made by others.

You and I have always disagreed upon Lebron James, but unless you're trolling again and I'm missing it, you're being lazy as hell saying people don't have another argument for Jordan.

It's the only argument which gets made. People dismiss LeBron because of his Finals records, which is asinine.

At the end of the day, there is no real advantage to the argument Jordan was better than LeBron, if you remove the nonsense of Finals.

Kevin Love once again proving that he's not worth the money he's getting paid.

So much money and he spent a bunch of minutes sitting on the bench.

I disagree totally with this assessment. I've heard a lot of people in the media ripping on Kevin Love and I think it's totally unfair. This series is a bad matchup for him, but the Warriors are the only team in the league that gets more dangerous when they play their small forward at center. Against almost nearly any other team, Kevin Love is not the liability he's been in this series.

At the end of the day, the Cavaliers cannot play both Thompson and Love at the same time in this series, and Thompson is just a better fit for the Cavs against the Warriors.

This is one of the main reasons I want the Warriors to win. I'm so tired of hearing people say the Warriors aren't as good as the Showtime Lakers or 96 Bulls or the 85 Celtics.

I agree completely. The whole "things were better back in my day" nonsense is just that...nonsense.

As for Sly's arguments on championships, I mean, championships ARE important.

Championships are a team accomplishment, not an individual one.

Peyton Manning is not a better QB now than he was 3 years ago because he happened to have a team around him which carried him to a Superbowl. Robert Parish wasn't better than Wilt Chamberlain because Parish happened to play with Larry Bird (and, apparently, Michael Jordan). And Michael Jordan isn't better than LeBron James because LeBron James could take Daniel Gibson to the NBA Finals and Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen.

I'm not saying that they are everything, but when it comes to comparable players, say like Jordan and Lebron, titles are a measure of those players' greatness and often times they are used as the determining factor to measure "who's better".

Only by people who cannot be bothered to evaluate in-depth. Saying "championships" is the lazy way of comparison. Basketball is not tennis, it's a team sport.

Obviously you can't say somebody like Robert Horry or Ron Harper is better than Lebron because they have more titles, but Kobe or Jordan? I think it's a fair way of comparing players that are very similar in their play, skill, ability, and legacy.

It's not. Comparing individuals based on the quality of their teammates is one of the worst arguments which can be made. Barry Bonds never won a World Series but he still a Hall of Fame player. But if Barry Bonds had played on the Yankees, do you really still think he wouldn't have had a Series win? If Scottie Pippen hadn't been on the Bulls, and if Phil Jackson hadn't been coach, do you think Michael Jordan would have won 6 titles?

It's an absurd argument.

 

[Slash-LN]

It's the only argument which gets made. People dismiss LeBron because of his Finals records, which is asinine.

I had a debate on a forum a couple years ago about Jordan not being the best and the argument made against me outside of the championships was that Jordan came first so if there was no Jordan there would be no Kobe or James.

I think that's equally ridiculous.

Jordan evolved the game. That's true. But you can't say that someone can't come along and build on that.

With that logic you could say if there was no Dr. J there would be no Jordan and totally just work your way back to the roots of basketball to the people who helped the progression.

 

[SSJPhenom]

This is one of the main reasons I want the Warriors to win. I'm so tired of hearing people say the Warriors aren't as good as the Showtime Lakers or 96 Bulls or the 85 Celtics. Facts are facts, no team has ever had a better record than the 2016 Golden State Warriors, they're style of play is inconsequential when it wins them games, and it undoubtedly wins them games. Who cares if they've been historically shitty? And you're also telling me that no team as of yet has played defense against the Warriors? Through over 100 games, ONLY the Cavs have played good D against Curry and Klay? Give me a break man. The Warriors are missing their shots, just like the Cavs missed their shots in the first 2 games, it's as simple as that. Harrison Barnes can't hit a shot to save his life all of the sudden.

Again, I'm not a Warriors fan, but this type of shit is ridiculous. Nobody knows how the Showtime Lakers would fare against the Warriors, they played 2 completely different styles. I'd like to see them stretched out like the Warriors would be able to stretch them out, and still see if they could strongly defend the perimeter ALONG with the paint. I doubt they'd be able to. It'd be a hell of a lot closer than some fans would have you believe.

I'm not saying teams were better back in the day, I'm saying the style of play back then would've rendered the 2016 Warriors ineffective. Play was more physical and teams only dominated when they had that big guy in the center to enforce defense and to get a shot on a offense when all else failed. Who on this Warriors team could deal with Abdul-Jabbar? Who could deal with Magic or Worthy? Also, the Showtime Lakers played a very similar style to that of Golden State, they just had an inside presence as well and were way more physical. If they played with today's rules, though, Golden State would definitely have a shot. Also, it's the 86 Celtics you're thinking of, not the 85 team.

Now about defense on the Warriors. I'm not saying that the Cavs are the ONLY team to play defense on the Warriors. I'm saying that the Cavs are the only team this season that has been able to play consistent defense on the Warriors at this level. If you're going to say that their missing shots has nothing to do with the Cavs defense then you're not paying attention. The Warriors have been able to go off offensively all season at the drop of a dime. What's different now? The Cavs defense. Just like Iguodala has been able to be effective on James. James, Irving, and Tristan Thompson have neen able to be effective defensively on Curry, Thompson and others. Also, you have to admit that the Warriors take bad shots. They're just able to make them. That's the difference.

Sly; are you saying that James is better than Jordan? There are other things we can look at to determine Jordan is better besides championships.
5x MVP, 6x Finals MVP, 14x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 10x All NBA First Team, NBA Defensive Player of the Year, 10x NBA Scoring Champion, 9x All NBA Defensive First Team, 3x Steals Leader, Playoffs All Time Leading Scorer, 3x AP Athelete of the Year, etc. Those are all individual achievements. Not to mention averaging 30.1 ppg for his career (highest all time) on 49.7% shooting and a playoffs career average of 33.4 ppg (highest all time) on 48.7% shooting.

Jordan was a bad man.

 

[Slash-LN]

Kareem Adbul Jabar has some pretty impressive numbers too. Not that I'm claiming him to be the best by any means.

But I could see if some people were to make an argument for him being the best before Jordan came along.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Championships don't necessarily matter but how you play in the big moments sure as shit does and I'm not talking about game 7 either. There's a time to play and there's a time to win, what you do when it's time to win is what makes the biggest difference between great players and the greatest players. Some players aren't in a position to win a title based on the team they play for (Barry Sanders is probably the best example of this in any sport) and of course what they do during the regular season and the first 42-43 minutes of the game matters greatly as well (which is why Robert Horry will never be in the same conversation as the James' and Jordan's of the world) but the truth is there is a fair amount of players that could hang with James during the 1st 45 minutes of a game and then outperform him in the final 3 to beat him.

I'm just saying that people remember most what happens in the final minutes and that's why so many people will always put guys like Bird, Jordan and Kobe over someone like LeBron because they remember what these guys did in the big moments, they also remember LeBron having great games and then disappearing in the big moments (granted he's delivered before in the big moments too, just not to the effect and extent of the Birds and Jordans). The fact is titles are the best gauge for the big moments which is why a lot of people pay extra attention to things like wins and titles.

When it comes down to it what good is a triple double if you're leaving the arena that night with nothing but your gym bag and your dick in your hand?

 

[smizzy]

All I know is LeBron is fucking incredible and an absolute joy to watch...and that all those (mainly the media) comparing Curry to LeBron's rare greatness need to reevaluate their logic upon a watch thru of the 2016 Finals.

And I'll say this, LeBron's presence IS as great as Jordan's. LeBron on the court, the way Jordan on the court was, is an intimidating and special spectacle.

My original prediction was the Warriors, but my emphatic support remains with LeBron and the Cavs.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

When talking about Curry and LeBron in comparison there is no question who is the better player, it's LeBron and quite frankly between last years finals and this years Curry can't touch LeBron, I mean the guy in those 2 series is averaging close to a Triple Double and he's STILL outscoring Curry to boot.

Curry had an amazing season, one of the best I've ever seen but that shit doesn't matter anymore, it's the finals and it's time to step up. In the last 2 finals Curry hasn't been the best player on the court and he hasn't even been the best player on his team (last year it was Andre, this year it's Klay) not to mention he hasn't been in the league all that long and does not have the credentials to even be in that discussion.

I think 1 day Curry could truly be the best in the league, he definitely has that potential, he also deserved the regular season MVP this year (last year I honestly feel LeBron got robbed considering his team was 1-13 or something like that without him) but he's not quite at LeBron's level yet. This series was time to prove that and he didn't answer the call. Before this series I'd say there was at least an argument for it but now? Fuck no.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not saying teams were better back in the day, I'm saying the style of play back then would've rendered the 2016 Warriors ineffective. Play was more physical and teams only dominated when they had that big guy in the center to enforce defense and to get a shot on a offense when all else failed.

I think it's hilarious how many people actually buy into this argument. Go back and watch games from the 70s and 80s. It was most definitely NOT more physical and the only reason teams dominated with a center is because the 3pt line was either non-existent or so new teams didn't know how to take advantage of it.

Sly; are you saying that James is better than Jordan?

I'm saying that if I were building a team, I'd rather have James on my team than Jordan.

There are other things we can look at to determine Jordan is better besides championships. 5x MVP, 6x Finals MVP, 14x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 10x All NBA First Team, NBA Defensive Player of the Year, 10x NBA Scoring Champion, 9x All NBA Defensive First Team, 3x Steals Leader, Playoffs All Time Leading Scorer, 3x AP Athelete of the Year, etc. Those are all individual achievements.

Over the course of a career. James is only 31.

But James has been MVP, Finals MVP, All-Star, Olympian, etc. also. Giving me career accomplishments when comparing someone who is still playing is stupid.

Not to mention averaging 30.1 ppg for his career (highest all time) on 49.7% shooting and a playoffs career average of 33.4 ppg (highest all time) on 48.7% shooting.

That's great...how about their assists per game (6.9 to 5.3)? How about rebounds (7.2 to 6.2)? How often did Jordan guard a post player? How often did Jordan go to the NBA Finals without Pippen?

This is the problem people who don't understand basketball. They think team accomplishments and scoring stats are all that matters, and that's ridiculous.

Jordan was a bad man.

Absolutely he was. So was Wilt. And so is LeBron. But just because Wilt and LeBron didn't have the support around them Jordan did, that doesn't make Jordan better.

By the way, here were Jordan's career accomplishments at age 31 (where LeBron is):

MVP: 3 (James 4)
Finals MVP: 3 (James 2, though he should have been last year and should be this year)
All-Star: 9 (James 12)
All-Star MVP: 1 (James 2)
NBA First Team: 7 (James 10)
Defensive Player of the Year: 1 (James 0)
NBA Defense First Team: 6 (James 5)
NBA Defense Second Team: 0 (James 2)


In other words, if you ARE going to try and compare careers, James is every bit as far along as Jordan was at the same point in his life.

Championships don't necessarily matter but how you play in the big moments sure as shit does...but the truth is there is a fair amount of players that could hang with James during the 1st 45 minutes of a game and then outperform him in the final 3 to beat him.

That must be why James has the highest PPG in league history in elimination games:

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/742421548297031680/photo/1

Or why LeBron James is only 31, but is already 3rd in playoff assists all time. Or why he's already 9th in playoff rebounds all time.

But sure, there is a "fair amount of players that could hang with James".

I'm just saying that people remember most what happens in the final minutes

Just because people are incapable of seeing the big picture, that doesn't mean the big picture doesn't matter.

The fact is titles are the best gauge for the big moments which is why a lot of people pay extra attention to things like wins and titles.

False. Titles are the best gauge of the quality of a team, not an individual.

When it comes down to it what good is a triple double if you're leaving the arena that night with nothing but your gym bag and your dick in your hand?

Because without that triple double, your team probably doesn't even have a chance to win. Without James putting up monster numbers in last year's Finals, do the Cavs even come within 20 points, much less win a game? Of course not.

Judging an individual because the quality of the team is simply lazy.

I think 1 day Curry could truly be the best in the league, he definitely has that potential, he also deserved the regular season MVP this year (last year I honestly feel LeBron got robbed considering his team was 1-13 or something like that without him) but he's not quite at LeBron's level yet. This series was time to prove that and he didn't answer the call. Before this series I'd say there was at least an argument for it but now? Fuck no.

There is no doubt in my mind the Steph Curry had the best season this year in the NBA. But there's also no doubt in my mind he's still not the best player in the league.

At the end of the day, Steph Curry is nothing to write home about on defense, he can't guard bigger players and his ball handling skills are good, but certainly not special. His dribbling skills pale in comparison to someone like Irving and his passing skills and ability to see the floor aren't on LeBron's level.

Steph Curry is a great player and was the rightful MVP this year. But he still wasn't the best player.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Let's take a look at the stats between Jordan and Lebron.

Points - Jordan wins - 30.1 to 27.2
Assists - Lebron wins - 6.9 to 5.3
Rebounds - Lebron wins - 7.2 to 6.2
Field Goal % - Lebron wins - 49.8 to 49.7
3-point FG % - Lebron wins - 34 to 32.7
Steals - Jordan - 2.3 to 1.7
Blocks - This is tied - 0.8 to 0.8
Free Throw % - Jordan wins - 83.5 to 74.4
Turnovers - Jordan wins - 2.7 to 3.4
Personal Fouls - Lebron wins - 1.9 to 2.6

Obviously the stats are pretty even, so what is the one thing that separates Lebron and Jordan? Championships. Say what you want about it, but Lebron is 2-4 in the Finals. He choked in the Finals against the Mavericks. He missed some clutch shots last year against GS. Look, I'm a HUGE Lebron fan. One of the biggest on these forums, but the fact is, he is not as good as Jordan. Because Jordan is 6-0 in the Finals, and Lebron is 2-4. You can't argue that.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Championships are a stupid argument but NBA All Star game MVP is far game?

You complain about comparing a full career to a partial career but then use finite numbers at a specific age to compare two guys who had a difference of three seasons at that age?

Deceptive. The other side may as well argue that LeBron failed to ever win an NCAA championship.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Obviously the stats are pretty even, so what is the one thing that separates Lebron and Jordan? Championships. Say what you want about it, but Lebron is 2-4 in the Finals. He choked in the Finals against the Mavericks. He missed some clutch shots last year against GS. Look, I'm a HUGE Lebron fan. One of the biggest on these forums, but the fact is, he is not as good as Jordan. Because Jordan is 6-0 in the Finals, and Lebron is 2-4. You can't argue that.

You couldn't but that's only because you don't have the ability to formulate an opinion on your own. Instead you just regurge the same nonsense you hear from the talking heads on ESPN (I've seen you quote both Stephen A and Skip verbatim multiple times.)

Championships are a team accomplishment. Is Terry Bradshaw a better QB than Peyton Manning? Bradshaw is 4-0 in Super Bowls while Peyton is 2-2. If you say yes, you're ******ed.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm not a huge Lebron fan but the loss last year in the Finals was flat out not his fault. That was Lebron vs. the Golden State Warriors by himself. Lebron is great but he can't beat a complete team. Last year didn't prove anything other than Lebron is great and can carry a team on his back like no other. The loss isn't on him because no one, meaning not Jordan, Robertson, Johnson, Chamberlain or anyone else you can name would have beaten Golden State in that situation.

 

[Ty Burna]

LeBron is pretty much the perfect specimen when it comes to building a basketball player.

6'8" 250 lbs. He's built like an oversized linebacker that runs like a god damn gazelle. He covers the entire length of the court in like 4 or 5 strides.

He has immaculate court vision, very similar to Magic Johnson. Thus he can run an entire offense as a Point Forward. Magic was similar. Hell he started at Center for the Lakers when Kareem went down at one point, but he was a true point guard.

He can shoot from long range. I don't think it's his biggest asset, but he's good enough to make it a serious threat, especially when he's in the zone (see: Game 6).

Mid Range is very on point.

The biggest weakness I always thought LeBron had was he didn't utilize his post up game in the beginning of his career. Just on his size alone and his physical abilities he would be an absolute monster. He's developed such a scary low post game now that even if his natural physical abilities diminish in the latter part of his career, he's still got that to fall back on. This in my eyes completely perfected his offensive game.

And you add those up, plus he's got very good handles, complete body control in mid air, and is near unstoppable driving the lane.

So that's just offensively. He's fine tuned his defensive game to near perfection. He can guard all 5 positions and lock them down hard. Any time he's running back on defense on a break away you can pretty much write it home he's getting that block.

Clutch gene, check. Take over gene, check. He's always well aware of his situation and when he needs to kick into that 6th gear that very few others have.

I think Jordan had an even bigger drive to succeed, hell I don't think anyone in sports will ever reach his ruthless need to win. But I do agree with Sly, if I were starting a team from scratch right now, I'm taking LeBron no question and I say this with full disclosure that I absolutely despise him, but I cannot help but admire how he can simply take over and dominate a game. What's always hurt him is he's ran into the absolute complete team in the Finals so many times while he's carried in a flawed and/or injured team. I don't think a lot of people realize how absolutely perfect the Spurs were when Parker, Manu, and Duncan were in their prime era. The perfect coach, the perfect system, the perfect players for both. The same thing can be said for the Warriors last year, we'll see about this year but I'm nervous as fuck about it.

Now the real question is, who's worse as a GM, Lebron or Jordan

 

[BringThePain834]

I will legit bet money on LeBron somehow tearing his ACL or something tomorrow.

 

[Da Prophet]

Something has to go wrong for the Cavs tomorrow. They're on the edge of the greatest comeback in NBA Finals history against the best team ever with the reigning 2x MVP, breaking the championship drought, bringing a title to the Cavs for the first time and LeBron is about to fulfil his promise. It'll be amazing if they win.

With all that in mind it just seems like the perfect setup for the universe to pull the rug out from underneath the Cavs and break their hearts. I just hope it's a fun back and forth game instead of a 20 point lead during the first. I don't have a horse in this race but my goodness would it be hilarious to see the Cavs crumble.

Give LeBron James the MVP though. No matter what happens. He should get that.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I will legit bet money on LeBron somehow tearing his ACL or something tomorrow.

Would you really? Would you? Fine. 10 bucks says you're wrong.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I think it's hilarious how many people actually buy into this argument. Go back and watch games from the 70s and 80s. It was most definitely NOT more physical and the only reason teams dominated with a center is because the 3pt line was either non-existent or so new teams didn't know how to take advantage of it.

If you actually believe this bullshit statement then I suggest that you actually go back and watch games from the 80s and 90s. Plays that players would be fined for and suspended for now would happen and be common fouls. The ball handler literally can't be touched now unless he's going into a post position (Hand checking), and a plethora of other rules have changed. How did the Bad Boy Pistons stop Jordan in 88, 89, and 90? The Jordan rules, which meant to double or triple team Jordan and if he tried to drive the lane they would literally knock him down. Not make a play on the ball and accidentally know him down, but literally and intentionally knock him to the ground. If that happened now, the refs and the league would lose their minds. But the league wasn't more physical back then? Give me a fucking break. You know better and so do I.

I'm saying that if I were building a team, I'd rather have James on my team than Jordan.

Good for you. I think that'd be stupid, but what do I know right?

Over the course of a career. James is only 31.

But James has been MVP, Finals MVP, All-Star, Olympian, etc. also. Giving me career accomplishments when comparing someone who is still playing is stupid.

That's great...how about their assists per game (6.9 to 5.3)? How about rebounds (7.2 to 6.2)? How often did Jordan guard a post player? How often did Jordan go to the NBA Finals without Pippen?

This is the problem people who don't understand basketball. They think team accomplishments and scoring stats are all that matters, and that's ridiculous.

You know what? I made this exact same argument when I made the thread in the Sports Arena about Lebron being so high on the ESPN list. I specifically said that it was unfair to judge a player's greatness compared to past players if that player was still playing and you didn't want to hear that. What changed your mind? Also, I don't understand basketball? Oh, please, teach me this game that I obviously don't know a thing about. I posted a hell of a lot more than scoring stats to show Jordan's greatness.

Absolutely he was. So was Wilt. And so is LeBron. But just because Wilt and LeBron didn't have the support around them Jordan did, that doesn't make Jordan better.

By the way, here were Jordan's career accomplishments at age 31 (where LeBron is):

MVP: 3 (James 4)
Finals MVP: 3 (James 2, though he should have been last year and should be this year)
All-Star: 9 (James 12)
All-Star MVP: 1 (James 2)
NBA First Team: 7 (James 10)
Defensive Player of the Year: 1 (James 0)
NBA Defense First Team: 6 (James 5)
NBA Defense Second Team: 0 (James 2)


In other words, if you ARE going to try and compare careers, James is every bit as far along as Jordan was at the same point in his life.
That must be why James has the highest PPG in league history in elimination games:

I never denied that James is a great player or that he is the greatest player of this generation. I've said that a lot on here. I just think you're asinine in saying he's every bit as good as Jordan was because that has yet to be proven. He's still playing and still has a lot to prove before he get's to Jordan levels (some say that's now impossible since he's lost in the Finals) and I'm not just talking about championships and things like that. Jordan is universally, by his peers, the media, and most fans called the greatest basketball player of all time. Lebron doesn't have that respect yet and he's still having to go out and fight for his legacy and his respect. Last week, he was being called a cry baby by the Warriors and media alike. He responded like a great player should have and I hope he finishes the job, but he still isn't at Jordan's level yet. He might get there and if you ask me, Abdul-Jabbar could and should honestly be called the greatest ever based on the individual stats, but his teams lost in the Finals a few times and Jordan's didn't. As a matter of fact, Jordan's teams never even went past game 6 of the Finals. Whether you want to admit it or not, that means something.

 

[Slyfox696]

Obviously the stats are pretty even, so what is the one thing that separates Lebron and Jordan? Championships.

Which is still a team accomplishment.

Let's put it another way. If Jordan had played for the LA Clippers or the Dallas Mavericks, would he have 6-6 championships? We all know the answer would be no, so how does that prove anything about Jordan or LeBron.

He missed some clutch shots last year against GS.

He was all but playing 1-on-5.

Because Jordan is 6-0 in the Finals, and Lebron is 2-4. You can't argue that.

But I can argue that it is completely irrelevant...because it is.

Championships are a stupid argument but NBA All Star game MVP is far game?

All Star Game MVP wasn't my argument. Try not to devolve into dishonest arguments.

You complain about comparing a full career to a partial career but then use finite numbers at a specific age to compare two guys who had a difference of three seasons at that age?

I'm using numbers at the same age. Just because Michael Jordan wasn't good enough to come straight out of high school like LeBron was, or because Jordan got burned out playing less basketball than James has, I don't see why we should ignore that.

You couldn't but that's only because you don't have the ability to formulate an opinion on your own.

Championships are a team accomplishment. Is Terry Bradshaw a better QB than Peyton Manning? Bradshaw is 4-0 in Super Bowls while Peyton is 2-2. If you say yes, you're ******ed.

Exactly. It's simply a lazy argument by people who don't want to bother to do in-depth analysis.

I'm not a huge Lebron fan but the loss last year in the Finals was flat out not his fault.

Nor was the one in 2007. And, given how gimpy Wade was, you could even say the same thing about 2014. The only year you can truly say LeBron did not show up was 2011, but even then, you're talking about the first year the Big 3 came together.

The loss isn't on him because no one, meaning not Jordan, Robertson, Johnson, Chamberlain or anyone else you can name would have beaten Golden State in that situation.

Exactly. 100%.

That's the thing which bothers me so much about the Jordan/LeBron/Finals argument. People criticize LeBron because he was BETTER than Jordan and able to get inferior teams to the Finals. I've never understood why losing in the Finals, as James has done 4 times, is somehow worse than losing EARLIER in the playoffs, as Jordan did 7 times (not counting the two seasons in Washington where they didn't make the playoffs).

If you actually believe this bullshit statement then I suggest that you actually go back and watch games from the 80s and 90s.

I have. Many many times. I grew up watching games in the late 80s through today. I watched Jordan win every one of his championships.

How about you?

Plays that players would be fined for and suspended for now would happen and be common fouls.

So? They would still be called fouls. How does that change the game at all?

The ball handler literally can't be touched now unless he's going into a post position

As opposed to this?



Watch that whole video and then watch what LeBron James has to do to score at the rim tonight. Then you can apologize for sounding so stupid.

How did the Bad Boy Pistons stop Jordan in 88, 89, and 90?

They played Jordan before Pippen or Phil Jackson bloomed.

The Jordan rules, which meant to double or triple team Jordan and if he tried to drive the lane they would literally knock him down. Not make a play on the ball and accidentally know him down, but literally and intentionally knock him to the ground. If that happened now, the refs and the league would lose their minds. But the league wasn't more physical back then? Give me a fucking break. You know better and so do I.

Yes, that is SO much more punishing than what LeBron has to deal with today.

Good for you. I think that'd be stupid, but what do I know right?

Right.

You know what? I made this exact same argument when I made the thread in the Sports Arena about Lebron being so high on the ESPN list. I specifically said that it was unfair to judge a player's greatness compared to past players if that player was still playing and you didn't want to hear that.

Why would you lie about something which can so easily be proven wrong?

The only thing you said in that thread which was anything close to that was:

Active players just can't be fairly put on a list like this, unless of course they're in the last legs of their careers.

And I never posted in the thread again after that. Why are you lying? Your argument, almost throughout the entire thread, was:

As far as I'm concerned, LeBron doesn't even deserve to be in the top ten. The fact that they have him at 3rd above people like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, and even Kobe is beyond ridiculous. LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals and he only has 2 rings.

In other words, your point was the same stupid argument that team accomplishments matter more than individual quality. Why would you lie so badly?

What changed your mind?

I haven't changed my mind, you're just being dishonest about what I said.

Also, I don't understand basketball?

Obviously not.

Oh, please, teach me this game that I obviously don't know a thing about.

I've coached/taught hundreds of kids the game of basketball, I'm sure I could teach you as well.

I posted a hell of a lot more than scoring stats to show Jordan's greatness.

Yes, all of which were roughly equaled by LeBron.

I just think you're asinine in saying he's every bit as good as Jordan was because that has yet to be proven.

No, it hasn't. If LeBron James were to retire tomorrow, it wouldn't change how great of a player he has been since he entered the NBA.

He's still playing and still has a lot to prove before he get's to Jordan levels

You're confusing accomplishments with ability, an understandable mistake given that it's one of the few ways we have to measure ability, but it's still a mistake nonetheless.

Jordan is universally, by his peers, the media, and most fans called the greatest basketball player of all time.

Michael Jordan didn't play in the NBA during 24/7 media and social media, etc. If he had, we would look at Jordan much differently than we do now. And yes, that's very important when discussing this topic.

As a matter of fact, Jordan's teams never even went past game 6 of the Finals.

Jordan's teams also didn't even make the Finals 9 times. Why don't you ever address that? Why is losing before the Finals somehow better than losing in the Finals? Do you really not see how stupid that argument is?

Whether you want to admit it or not, that means something.

Yes, it means that the teams LeBron played on wasn't as good as the team Jordan played on. It says nothing about the individuals.

Oh, and when you respond next, do so without the lying. Thanks!

 

[SSJPhenom]

Which is still a team accomplishment.

Let's put it another way. If Jordan had played for the LA Clippers or the Dallas Mavericks, would he have 6-6 championships? We all know the answer would be no, so how does that prove anything about Jordan or LeBron.



He was all but playing 1-on-5.

But I can argue that it is completely irrelevant...because it is.
All Star Game MVP wasn't my argument. Try not to devolve into dishonest arguments.

I'm using numbers at the same age. Just because Michael Jordan wasn't good enough to come straight out of high school like LeBron was, or because Jordan got burned out playing less basketball than James has, I don't see why we should ignore that.


Exactly. It's simply a lazy argument by people who don't want to bother to do in-depth analysis.
Nor was the one in 2007. And, given how gimpy Wade was, you could even say the same thing about 2014. The only year you can truly say LeBron did not show up was 2011, but even then, you're talking about the first year the Big 3 came together.

Exactly. 100%.

That's the thing which bothers me so much about the Jordan/LeBron/Finals argument. People criticize LeBron because he was BETTER than Jordan and able to get inferior teams to the Finals. I've never understood why losing in the Finals, as James has done 4 times, is somehow worse than losing EARLIER in the playoffs, as Jordan did 7 times (not counting the two seasons in Washington where they didn't make the playoffs).
I have. Many many times. I grew up watching games in the late 80s through today.

How about you?

So? They would still be called fouls. How does that change the game at all?



As opposed to this?



Watch that whole video and then watch what LeBron James has to do to score at the rim tonight. Then you can apologize for sounding so stupid.

They played Jordan before Pippen or Phil Jackson bloomed.




Yes, that is SO much more punishing than what LeBron has to deal with today.

Right.

Why would you lie about something which can so easily be proven wrong?

The only thing you said in that thread which was anything close to that was:


And I never posted in the thread again after that. Why are you lying? Your argument, almost throughout the entire thread, was:


In other words, your point was the same stupid argument that team accomplishments matter more than individual quality. Why would you lie so badly?

I haven't changed my mind, you're just being dishonest about what I said.

Obviously not.

I've coached/taught hundreds of kids the game of basketball, I'm sure I could teach you as well.

Yes, all of which were roughly equaled by LeBron.

No, it hasn't. If LeBron James were to retire tomorrow, it wouldn't change how great of a player he has been since he entered the NBA.

You're confusing accomplishments with ability, an understandable mistake given that it's one of the few ways we have to measure ability, but it's still a mistake nonetheless.

Michael Jordan didn't play in the NBA during 24/7 media and social media, etc. If he had, we would look at Jordan much differently than we do now. And yes, that's very important when discussing this topic.

Jordan's teams also didn't even make the Finals 9 times. Why don't you ever address that? Why is losing before the Finals somehow better than losing in the Finals? Do you really not see how stupid that argument is?
Yes, it means that the teams LeBron played on wasn't as good as the team Jordan played on. It says nothing about the individuals.

Oh, and when you respond next, do so without the lying. Thanks!

I played basketball throughout school and 2 seasons in college. I don't think you can teach me anymore than I already know.

Posting video sequences from a few select moments doesn't disprove the 80s and 90s were less physical, it proves that in those moments, nothing physical happened. I can do the same.

[YOUTUBE]NLv2F33snCE[/YOUTUBE]

Lebron will face that same kind of physicality from the Warriors tonight though, right?

Also, the point of that thread wasn't to say Lebron wasn't great. The point was to suggest that his career is still in full swing and that he cannot possibly be fairly judged. I thought he was too high and I used his losses in the Finals to make my point because as I've said several times, if team accomplishments aren't a factor, then Abdul-Jabbar is better than both Jordan and Lebron.

Also, I wouldn't say 9 of Jordan's teams didn't make the Finals. I mean, technically that's true but Jordan didn't play the entire 94-95 season and are you seriously going to hold those Wizards teams against him? Let's see if Lebron is still averaging 20+ and is an All-Star at 40. At least Jordan never lost after getting to the Finals. Sure he had Pippen, but Lebron had D-Wade and Bosh 4 times and lost twice.

You seem to be all impressed with Lebron taking lesser teams to the Finals. Hell, Allen Iverson did that too. Is he in the conversation with Lebron and Jordan? No he isn't. Lebron deserves every bit of the praise and admiration he gets because he is great, but it's impossible to say he's better than Jordan at this point in time. Some say it can never happen, I think he can still prove to be the best because he has a lot left to go. As of right now though, he's not better than Jordan.

 

[smizzy]

As fun as I believe MITB is going to be tonight, it's gonna have to be put on hold until tomorrow for this showcase.

So goddamn excired that I've been throwing aimless air punches all day.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

You couldn't but that's only because you don't have the ability to formulate an opinion on your own. Instead you just regurge the same nonsense you hear from the talking heads on ESPN (I've seen you quote both Stephen A and Skip verbatim multiple times.)

Championships are a team accomplishment. Is Terry Bradshaw a better QB than Peyton Manning? Bradshaw is 4-0 in Super Bowls while Peyton is 2-2. If you say yes, you're ******ed.

Championships are a team accomplishment, but how else do you decide who is better between Lebron and Jordan? Their stats are pretty much even.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I'm not jumping very deep into this anymore because Sly and I have debated this multiple times and there's no changing either of our minds. That said, I've come to consider that comparing Jordan and James isn't exactly fair. Yes people have compared different basketball players regardless of position (Jabbar to Robertson, etc), but Jordan and James are very different players. You want a better reference for Lebron James? Start with a different MJ. Magic Johnson is a much more similar player. Personally, I think they're worlds apart, but I do understand that's entirely my opinion.

Championships are a team accomplishment, but how else do you decide who is better between Lebron and Jordan? Their stats are pretty much even.

You formulate your own damn opinion. You're too young to see what Jordan was really capable of though, so I understand your ignorance in that aspect.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Fans often compare players because it's fun, it's fun to wonder how great player A would do against great player B, frankly it comes down to being a fan of the sport and coming up with dream scenarios that will never happen. In alot of ways it's not fair at all to compare great players for a multitude of reasons given how the game and competition has changed from era to era, really it's just spinning wheels unless you're talking about players that actually played in the same era but rarely that's how it works. Overall a players talent transcends eras but at the same time if Oscar Robertson isn't playing in the 60's he's not averaging a triple double for a season, he played in a high scoring era where teams on average had 20-30 more possessions a game, he'd still be a great player today but I guarantee his numbers are lower than they are now, same with Wilts 50 PPG season. On the flip side if LeBron is playing in the 60's his numbers across the board are much higher and he's probably averaging a triple double in more than 1 season. Also, if LeBron is playing in the 60's he's not winning rings unless he's on the Celtics just given how dominant that team was.

I think it's safe to call LeBron the best player of the current era. Do I think Jordan, Bird or Hakeem could take LeBron? Yes I do, I think they have the talent to hang, have a bigger killer instinct and can go 48 full minutes but there's all these X factors to consider that could easily favor LeBron. We can't use "LeBron would be average in the 90's due to the games physicality and hand checking" because he never played then, I could easily turn that around and say "Jordan would be average today because he only had to deal with man to man defense. He didn't have to handle all these formations that LeBron has to deal with", I'm guessing Jordan would adapt in this era just like LeBron would adapt in the 90's. Obviously we can say which players are in the discussion for best players ever, we can also distinguish that certain great players are better than others despite era but when we're getting into the top 10 greatest ever it just can't be done, the game has evolved too much to accurately say that.

 

[Slyfox696]

I played basketball throughout school and 2 seasons in college.

Oooh! And sure you did.

I don't think you can teach me anymore than I already know.

The fact you say this just proves my point. No one knowledgeable about basketball thinks they know it all. I just know I know more than you.

Posting video sequences from a few select moments doesn't disprove the 80s and 90s were less physical, it proves that in those moments, nothing physical happened. I can do the same.

Select moments? It was all 63 of Jordan's points and the back and forth points with Thomas. It wasn't select moments, it was the first Youtube videos each time. You're so full of nonsense it's astounding.

[YOUTUBE]NLv2F33snCE[/YOUTUBE]

Lebron will face that same kind of physicality from the Warriors tonight though, right?

Umm...easily.

I watched the first two minutes of your video and only one play would be considered physical in today's game that wasn't called a foul and it should have been a foul on Rodman. But you are absolutely blind if you think LeBron doesn't have to deal with the same level of physicality in the lane.

Also, the point of that thread wasn't to say Lebron wasn't great.

Then you're a terrible poster who says things they didn't mean. You clearly said LeBron wasn't worthy of being Top 10 because of his Finals record.

The point was to suggest that his career is still in full swing and that he cannot possibly be fairly judged.

You didn't say that, except for once, at the end of the thread. Why do you continue to lie?

Also, I wouldn't say 9 of Jordan's teams didn't make the Finals. I mean, technically that's true but Jordan didn't play the entire 94-95 season

So? LeBron took a Cavaliers team which set a record for futility after he left to the Finals. Why does Jordan get a pass for not taking a PLAYOFF CALIBER TEAM WITHOUT HIM to the Finals?

This is the stupidity of which I speak. The Bulls were a playoff team without Jordan and he still didn't go to the Finals. The Cavaliers lost 25 games in a row without LeBron.

and are you seriously going to hold those Wizards teams against him?

Why not? You're holding LeBron's first Cavs team against him.

Why the double standards?

Let's see if Lebron is still averaging 20+ and is an All-Star at 40.

There's no telling where LeBron will be at that point.

At least Jordan never lost after getting to the Finals.

Yes, he lost before then because he wasn't good enough to take bad teams to the Finals like LeBron did.

Sure he had Pippen, but Lebron had D-Wade and Bosh 4 times and lost twice.

"Sure Jordan had one of the greatest players of all time on his team and the greatest coach of all time on his team, but LeBron had a frail 6'10" player and a guy with a busted wheel. It's totally the same!"

You seem to be all impressed with Lebron taking lesser teams to the Finals.

No, I'm saying it's absurd to hold that impressive feat against him, just because Jordan wasn't good enough to do it.

Hell, Allen Iverson did that too. Is he in the conversation with Lebron and Jordan? No he isn't.

Who said he was?

But you're trying to use team accomplishments in a discussion of individual quality and I'm pointing out, rightfully, how stupid it is of you to do so.

Lebron deserves every bit of the praise and admiration he gets because he is great, but it's impossible to say he's better than Jordan at this point in time.

Nonsense.

Let's put it this way. Are you saying neither Brandon Ingram or Ben Simmons were as good as Malcolm Brogdon last year because Brogdon has four years of stats to his name? And when you realize why your answer here has to be "no", you'll understand why your comment does not make sense.

Again, you are confusing ability with accomplishments.

As fun as I believe MITB is going to be tonight, it's gonna have to be put on hold until tomorrow for this showcase.

So goddamn excired that I've been throwing aimless air punches all day.

MITB on the main TV, basketball game on the computer with WatchESPN. And that's only because we have people coming over to watch MITB.

I'm not jumping very deep into this anymore because Sly and I have debated this multiple times and there's no changing either of our minds. That said, I've come to consider that comparing Jordan and James isn't exactly fair. Yes people have compared different basketball players regardless of position (Jabbar to Robertson, etc), but Jordan and James are very different players.

This is very accurate as well. But at the end of the day, we know that players want to play with LeBron James and Michael Jordan punched his teammates in the face. We know that LeBron James has a squeaky clean image off the court and Jordan was a gambling womanizer. And we know that James has taken inferior teams to the NBA Finals and Jordan could only do it with one of the 50 greatest of all time and the greatest coach of all time.

No one disputes Jordan was one of the greatest ever. And no one disputes that starting a team with Jordan would be a great idea. But, at the end of the day, he simply couldn't get to the Finals by himself...like LeBron has.

 

[JGlass]

So how are folks feeling about the game tonight? Anybody nervous? Excited?

I'm both. Hopeful that the stars have aligned for Cleveland and the drama they've faced this season has prepared them for this epic game 7.